Re: [Sursound] Individualized HRTFs

[Marc Lavallée]

I had mine done last week, after a few attempts at shooting a suitable
video file (it looks easy to do, but it's not). The resulting 3D model
is also not as good as the ones shown in the promotional video, so I
will probably try again because I suspect that a better video would
help to produce a better 3D model, therefore a better HRTF profile.

I'm still in the process of evaluating the SOFA file I received (in my
free time, something I should continue tomorrow). So far the results
are very interesting; it does work. I will try to compare it with some
generic HRTFs, and I will report here. 

One of my problem is the lack of software to use a SOFA file. My
evaluation tool is now JSAmbisonics, because it's free (as in speech).
I guess I could also use the ambiX binaural player, but that would be
more work.

--
Marc

On Sun, 5 Nov 2017 00:07:59 +
Augustine Leudar  wrote:

> Looks interesting - anthropometric approach.
> 
> On Saturday, 4 November 2017, Len Moskowitz
>  wrote:
> 
> > Augustine Leudar wrote:
> >
> >
> > great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats
> > really not  
> >> going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring
> >> HRTFs is designed - I have several in case any millionaires out
> >> there are interested
> >>  
> >
> >
> > At the recent AES Exhibition in NYC, IDA was shown:
> >
> >
> >  idaaudio.com
> >  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxf28tinxZg
> >
> >
> > Individualized HRTFs, using a smartphone, for under $500.
> >
> >
> > Someone I trust had his done, and he says it finally allowed him to
> > disambiguate between front and rear.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> > Core Sound LLC
> > www.core-sound.com
> > Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
> >
> > ___
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> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> >  
> 
> 

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Re: [Sursound] Individualized HRTFs

[Augustine Leudar]

Looks interesting - anthropometric approach.

On Saturday, 4 November 2017, Len Moskowitz 
wrote:

> Augustine Leudar wrote:
>
>
> great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats really not
>> going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring HRTFs is
>> designed - I have several in case any millionaires out there are
>> interested
>>
>
>
> At the recent AES Exhibition in NYC, IDA was shown:
>
>
>  idaaudio.com
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxf28tinxZg
>
>
> Individualized HRTFs, using a smartphone, for under $500.
>
>
> Someone I trust had his done, and he says it finally allowed him to
> disambiguate between front and rear.
>
>
>
>
>
> Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
> Core Sound LLC
> www.core-sound.com
> Home of TetraMic and OctoMic
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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[Sursound] Individualized HRTFs

[Len Moskowitz]

Augustine Leudar wrote:


great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats really 
not
going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring 
HRTFs is
designed - I have several in case any millionaires out there are 
interested



At the recent AES Exhibition in NYC, IDA was shown:


 idaaudio.com
 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxf28tinxZg


Individualized HRTFs, using a smartphone, for under $500.


Someone I trust had his done, and he says it finally allowed him to 
disambiguate between front and rear.






Len Moskowitz (mosko...@core-sound.com)
Core Sound LLC
www.core-sound.com
Home of TetraMic and OctoMic

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Re: [Sursound] Numinous3D headphone disco

[Oliver Larkin]

pression from the KU100 didn't work.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>You can also listen to that binaural mix on soundcloud:
> >>>>>https://soundcloud.com/olilarkin/pogo-sonicspecies-numinous-
> >>>>>3d-binaural-mix <https://soundcloud.com/olilar
> >>>>>kin/pogo-sonicspecies-numinous-3d-binaural-mix>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I've uploaded a 360 video version to both facebook and youtube, which
> >>>>>both use head tracked binauralisers. There I am a bit less in control
> of
> >>>>>the mix. It's interesting how different the bass and spatialisation
> sounds
> >>>>>on facebook (where I've uploaded 2nd order Ambix audio) versus youtube
> >>>>>(where I've uploaded 1st order Ambix audio)
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Youtube 360 version: http://youtu.be/qUTNqWWIF0k <
> >>>>>http://youtu.be/qUTNqWWIF0k>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Facebook 360 version: http://goo.gl/9kZG5V <http://goo.gl/9kZG5V>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>If anyone would like the high quality, uncompressed versions of the
> >>>>>binaural mix or 1OA -> 5OA files to play in your studio please
> contact me
> >>>>>directly.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>I'm very interested to hear your feedback on this. If you “like” it
> >>>>>please do click the button on facebook / soundcloud / youtube!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>best regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Oli Larkin
> >>>>>
> >>>>>www.olilarkin.co.uk <http://www.olilarkin.co.uk/>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>* the music is 8 minutes long and is supplied as stereo track in a
> >>>>>webm/mp4 video file. the video file is ~20 mb (webm) / ~40mb (mp4) .
> >>>>>Originally I wanted to include options to render head tracked
> binaural on
> >>>>>the website using omnitone.js, but I wasn’t able to implement that at
> this
> >>>>>stage. What I really should do is do the visualisation as a shader
> thus
> >>>>>losing the video, and meaning that 8 minutes of 16 channel TOA is
> >>>>>reasonable.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
>
> ___
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> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
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Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco

[Augustine Leudar]

t;>>>
>>>> It turns out that in the horizontal plain it is not too difficult to
>>>> provide
>>>> what the pinnae need in directionality without making any HF HRTF
>>>> measurements.  So I and my converts easily obtain solid full circle
>>>> localization of direct sound in the horizontal plane from ordinary 4.0
>>>> recordings like SACDs, DTS 5.1, SQ, UHJ, Dolby Atmos, Auro 3d, etc.
>>>> using
>>>> just four speakers and only a modest amount of numerical processing.
>>>> Direct
>>>> elevated sound sources can be accommodated using similar rules but that
>>>> needs more research and real music recordings to test with.  Hall
>>>> ambience
>>>> height is easily accommodated as is all concert hall reverb, also in a
>>>> binaural friendly way.
>>>>
>>>> The rules are different for headphones or earphones, however.  Lots of
>>>> AES
>>>> and other papers on all this, including several on the Ambiophone 3D mic
>>>> array that anyone can copy and use to make better 4.0 recordings of live
>>>> sound.
>>>>
>>>> -Original Message-
>>>> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
>>>> Augustine
>>>> Leudar
>>>> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 3:17 PM
>>>> To: Surround Sound discussion group
>>>> Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco
>>>>
>>>> great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats really not
>>>> going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring
>>>> HRTFs  is
>>>> designed - I have several in case any millionaires out there are
>>>> interested
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> On 3 November 2017 at 18:36, Ralph Glasgal <glas...@ambiophonics.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Have you tried https://cloud.aria3d.com  Using a Chrome browser,
>>>>> Christos Tsakostas, a Greek audio researcher produces an up to 180
>>>>> degrees wide stage in the horizontal plane starting with ordinary 5.1
>>>>> or 2.0 recordings and you can play your own UHJ's this way.  There is
>>>>> also no reason why this technique could not soon produce a full circle
>>>>> of direct sound using just four speakers from 4.0/5.1 media including
>>>>> Ambisonic media decoded to 4.0 which I have heard this way via DTS
>>>>> media.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ___
>>>> Sursound mailing list
>>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>>>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Dr. Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
>
>


-- 
Dr. Augustine Leudar
Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco

[Stefan Schreiber]

Augustine Leudar wrote:


Hi,
Yes for horizontal localisation you may get away with ILDs and ITDs -



Is IMO not established psychoacoustical science... Front/back 
distinction (extreme case) etc. etc.?


Stefan



but
for height information the individual shape of the pinna is key and the
system of migrating frequency peaks and notches caused by the direction
dependant filterning caused by pinna shape . By filtering I mean the
frequency peaks and notches which change in accordance with height, a
filtering system that each individual brain has learnt, definitely work
better with individuslised HRTFs Interpoliation between HRTF data sets
is one option but there are others..

On 4 November 2017 at 00:54, Ralph Glasgal  wrote:

 


It doesn't take a millionaire any longer.  If you follow the rules of
binaural psychoacoustics you don't need to measure any HRTFs to have a
recording and loudspeaker reproduction system that delivers normal binaural
hearing cues to any reasonable standard and does not make use of the
stereophonic effect, or Ambisonic equations, but is a sort of home-friendly
Wavefield Synthesis.  Like WFS the listening area is much less restricted
than that of a normal stereo system and since no HRTFs or head tracking is
involved multiple listeners can be accommodated.

The first rule is that in any such chain, there must be one head shadow but
only one and it need not be the end listener's.  By head shadow in this
rule
we are just considering ITD and ILD in the frequency range where these
affect localization.  Since we nod, rotate, and lean and sound goes over,
under, around the front, around the rear, etc. the ITD and ILD are quite
smeared and so the brain is used to this and can adjust to an ITD, ILD head
shadow not its own.  So it does not matter how the ITD and ILD are recorded
or synthesized as long as they are normal values for a frontal or rear
stage
object and then are delivered unaltered to the ear canals.  So no
personalized HRTFs so far or head tracking.

The second rule operates in the higher frequency range where it is only the
pinnae that determine localization.  The rule is that in any recording and
reproduction chain there must be one and only one set of pinnae and that
set
must be that of the end listener.  Since few mic arrays have pinnae,
including the Soundfield, there is seldom a problem of having two sets of
pinnae in a system.  (can use most dummy head mics without the outer ears.)
So the only problem in having the remaining part of a soundfield binaural,
is in making sure that all the sound sources come to the ear from a
direction that is pinnae proper.  So for example central solo frontal sound
should come from the central front.  All reflections or direct sound coming
from the rear should have directional components not only for the pinnae,
but also be delivered with binaural ILD and ITD values that are not then
allowed to be altered by the listener's head dimensions.

It turns out that in the horizontal plain it is not too difficult to
provide
what the pinnae need in directionality without making any HF HRTF
measurements.  So I and my converts easily obtain solid full circle
localization of direct sound in the horizontal plane from ordinary 4.0
recordings like SACDs, DTS 5.1, SQ, UHJ, Dolby Atmos, Auro 3d, etc. using
just four speakers and only a modest amount of numerical processing.
Direct
elevated sound sources can be accommodated using similar rules but that
needs more research and real music recordings to test with.  Hall ambience
height is easily accommodated as is all concert hall reverb, also in a
binaural friendly way.

The rules are different for headphones or earphones, however.  Lots of AES
and other papers on all this, including several on the Ambiophone 3D mic
array that anyone can copy and use to make better 4.0 recordings of live
sound.

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of
Augustine
Leudar
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 3:17 PM
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco

great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats really not
going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring HRTFs  is
designed - I have several in case any millionaires out there are interested


On 3 November 2017 at 18:36, Ralph Glasgal 
wrote:

   


Have you tried https://cloud.aria3d.com  Using a Chrome browser,
Christos Tsakostas, a Greek audio researcher produces an up to 180
degrees wide stage in the horizontal plane starting with ordinary 5.1
or 2.0 recordings and you can play your own UHJ's this way.  There is
also no reason why this technique could not soon produce a full circle
of direct sound using just four speakers from 4.0/5.1 media including
Ambisonic media decoded to 4.0 which I have heard this way via DTS media.

 


___
Sursound 

Re: [Sursound] Numinous3D headphone disco

[Stefan Schreiber]

Oliver Larkin wrote:


thanks gus, glad you like it! i’d still like to hear that spatial dub…

to me the bass sounds unpleasant on FB360, and I don’t get much benefit from it being 2nd order. I prefer youtube. The binaural dummy head sounds most externalised, but i have sat in the spot where it was recorded and listened on nice open back headphones. It’s amazing how listening in different environments i can easily loose the externalisation. 


I think omnitone.js will let me use my own KU100 HRIRs measured in the space so 
that might be the way forward, once i can integrate that in the web version

oli
 



Hi Oli...

Omnitone uses 256-tap HRIRs, which are HRTFs. An Ambisonics recording 
would already include hall ambience - but Omnitone HRIRs don't include 
any hall response.


You would like to record KU100 < BRIRs >. So you would have to change 
Omnitone's renderer to allow long HRIRs= BRIRs


I don't say things can't be done in this way - but you would have to 
spend a lot of effort.


BR

Stefan




 


On 3 Nov 2017, at 15:46, Augustine Leudar  wrote:

PS of the 3 I think the youtube one spatialised best for me - hard to tell
with the facebook on as it had problems loading - but the youtube version
seemed to work better for me than the website version - not sure why that
should be.

On 3 November 2017 at 15:35, Augustine Leudar >
wrote:

   


In terms of the binaural effect - I liked the the way the localisation of
sounds changes as you moved the image around (didnt realise that it did
that till half way through). However I only really got the ILDs and ITDs an
no sense of height no doubt due to the well known issues surround
individual HRTFs - and my ears a bit of a weird shape anyway.

On 3 November 2017 at 15:27, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

 


looks and sounds great Oli its nice to see the technology used for other
experimental genres and not just electroacoustic music :)  We've been doing
quite a bit of 3D audio techno, ambient and dub this year at festivals and
events - its going down amazingly well (especially live!) - maybe we should
organise an event together.

On 3 November 2017 at 11:58, Oliver Larkin 
wrote:

   


Dear surr-sounders,

Please check out a website I made numinous3d.com 
where I have done a 3D mix of a friend's track (which is currently in the
top 10 on beatport.com  psychedelic trance
section**). The website is and interactive VR experience which transports
you to the SPIRAL studio at the University of Huddersfield, UK where I
mixed the piece in HOA. It includes some fascinating visualisation of the
HOA soundfield done with Blue Ripple Sound’s O3A Flare (thanks Richard!).
Be warned that the website is a bit slow to load and works best on desktop
chrome/firefox (recent version). it does work for me with my iphone and
google cardboard when I have a decent internet connection*. It also works
well on desktop windows with the HTC Vive in Firefox. On the website you
will hear a two channel binaural mix that I have done by re-recording
different elements of the HOA mix in the Applied Psychoacoustics Lab (APL)
listening room using a Neumann KU100 dummy head, and mixing that with
direct sound (kick & bass) and 5OA decoded to binaural, where the room
impression from the KU100 didn't work.

You can also listen to that binaural mix on soundcloud:
https://soundcloud.com/olilarkin/pogo-sonicspecies-numinous-
3d-binaural-mix 

I've uploaded a 360 video version to both facebook and youtube, which
both use head tracked binauralisers. There I am a bit less in control of
the mix. It's interesting how different the bass and spatialisation sounds
on facebook (where I've uploaded 2nd order Ambix audio) versus youtube
(where I've uploaded 1st order Ambix audio)

Youtube 360 version: http://youtu.be/qUTNqWWIF0k <
http://youtu.be/qUTNqWWIF0k>

Facebook 360 version: http://goo.gl/9kZG5V 

If anyone would like the high quality, uncompressed versions of the
binaural mix or 1OA -> 5OA files to play in your studio please contact me
directly.

I'm very interested to hear your feedback on this. If you “like” it
please do click the button on facebook / soundcloud / youtube!

best regards,

Oli Larkin

www.olilarkin.co.uk 


* the music is 8 minutes long and is supplied as stereo track in a
webm/mp4 video file. the video file is ~20 mb (webm) / ~40mb (mp4) .
Originally I wanted to include options to render head tracked binaural on
the website using omnitone.js, but I wasn’t able to implement that at this
stage. What I really should do is do the visualisation as a shader thus
losing the video, and meaning that 8 minutes of 16 channel TOA is
reasonable.

 

Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco

[Ralph Glasgal]

uction chain there must be one and only one set of 
> pinnae and that set must be that of the end listener.  Since few mic 
> arrays have pinnae, including the Soundfield, there is seldom a 
> problem of having two sets of pinnae in a system.  (can use most dummy 
> head mics without the outer ears.) So the only problem in having the 
> remaining part of a soundfield binaural, is in making sure that all 
> the sound sources come to the ear from a direction that is pinnae 
> proper.  So for example central solo frontal sound should come from 
> the central front.  All reflections or direct sound coming from the 
> rear should have directional components not only for the pinnae, but 
> also be delivered with binaural ILD and ITD values that are not then 
> allowed to be altered by the listener's head dimensions.
>
> It turns out that in the horizontal plain it is not too difficult to 
> provide what the pinnae need in directionality without making any HF 
> HRTF measurements.  So I and my converts easily obtain solid full 
> circle localization of direct sound in the horizontal plane from 
> ordinary 4.0 recordings like SACDs, DTS 5.1, SQ, UHJ, Dolby Atmos, 
> Auro 3d, etc. using just four speakers and only a modest amount of 
> numerical processing.
> Direct
> elevated sound sources can be accommodated using similar rules but 
> that needs more research and real music recordings to test with.  Hall 
> ambience height is easily accommodated as is all concert hall reverb, 
> also in a binaural friendly way.
>
> The rules are different for headphones or earphones, however.  Lots of 
> AES and other papers on all this, including several on the Ambiophone 
> 3D mic array that anyone can copy and use to make better 4.0 
> recordings of live sound.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of 
> Augustine Leudar
> Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 3:17 PM
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco
>
> great sound design but no cigar on the binaural front - thats really 
> not going to get solved until a quick and convenient way of measuring 
> HRTFs  is designed - I have several in case any millionaires out there 
> are interested 
>
> On 3 November 2017 at 18:36, Ralph Glasgal <glas...@ambiophonics.org>
> wrote:
>
> > Have you tried https://cloud.aria3d.com  Using a Chrome browser, 
> > Christos Tsakostas, a Greek audio researcher produces an up to 180 
> > degrees wide stage in the horizontal plane starting with ordinary 
> > 5.1 or 2.0 recordings and you can play your own UHJ's this way.  
> > There is also no reason why this technique could not soon produce a 
> > full circle of direct sound using just four speakers from 4.0/5.1 
> > media including Ambisonic media decoded to 4.0 which I have heard this
way via DTS media.
> >
>
> ___
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> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe 
> here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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Re: [Sursound] 3D Browser disco

[Augustine Leudar]

J's this way.  There is
> > also no reason why this technique could not soon produce a full circle
> > of direct sound using just four speakers from 4.0/5.1 media including
> > Ambisonic media decoded to 4.0 which I have heard this way via DTS media.
> >
>
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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