[Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

Can someone comment on the double message i think i find in the spec?

There is a the specification of max number of channels in stream info
chapter 8.2

u(3)   | (number of channels)-1.  FLAC supports from 1 to  |
  || 8 channels.


In chapter 8.6.2

A WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK field of 0x0 can be used to
   indicate that none of the audio channels of a file correlate with
   speaker positions.  This is the case when audio needs to be decoded
   into speaker positions (e.g.  Ambisonics B-format audio) or when a
   multitrack recording is contained.


.

What does this mean?

Is it that ambisonics cannot be streamed in second or third order with flac?


In todays widebandwith internet this feels a bit too restrictive, is
it a Dolby business thing?


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cellar-flac/

Any information or ideas about this?

Bosse Sandholm
Ambisonics hobbyist.
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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Panos Kouvelis]

Native FLAC can support up to 8 channels; you are right.

To support more channels using FLAC, you should use Ogg FLAC, an OGG
container containing FLAC-encoded material.

If that helps you, you can find more here:
https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg
Here: https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_or_ogg
And here: https://xiph.org/flac/ogg_mapping.html

I hope that helps in your case.

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd
<http://mediaflake.com/>*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 9:02 PM Bo-Erik Sandholm 
wrote:

> Can someone comment on the double message i think i find in the spec?
>
> There is a the specification of max number of channels in stream info
> chapter 8.2
>
> u(3)   | (number of channels)-1.  FLAC supports from 1 to  |
>   || 8 channels.
>
>
> In chapter 8.6.2
>
> A WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK field of 0x0 can be used to
>indicate that none of the audio channels of a file correlate with
>speaker positions.  This is the case when audio needs to be decoded
>into speaker positions (e.g.  Ambisonics B-format audio) or when a
>multitrack recording is contained.
>
>
> .
>
> What does this mean?
>
> Is it that ambisonics cannot be streamed in second or third order with
> flac?
>
>
> In todays widebandwith internet this feels a bit too restrictive, is
> it a Dolby business thing?
>
>
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cellar-flac/
>
> Any information or ideas about this?
>
> Bosse Sandholm
> Ambisonics hobbyist.
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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Marc Lavallée]

Hi Panos,

The Ogg FLAC  documentation does not mention that more than 8 channels 
can be encoded.


I tried using ffmpeg; this is working for 8 channels:

ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg -ac 8 
-y noise-8c.ogg


But this is not working for 16 channels:

ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg -ac 16 
-y noise-16c.ogg


The returned error is: "[flac @ 0x562603bd8540] 16 channels not 
supported (max 8)"


And when specifying a channel number higher than 8 but lower than 16, 
the result is a mono file.


It could be that ffmpeg is not capable of encoding more than 8 channels 
for FLAC streams.


What tool (or method) would you suggest to encode more than 8 channels 
in a Ogg container?


Marc

Le 2023-04-30 à 14 h 11, Panos Kouvelis a écrit :

Native FLAC can support up to 8 channels; you are right.

To support more channels using FLAC, you should use Ogg FLAC, an OGG
container containing FLAC-encoded material.

If that helps you, you can find more here:
https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg
Here: https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_or_ogg
And here: https://xiph.org/flac/ogg_mapping.html

I hope that helps in your case.

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 9:02 PM Bo-Erik Sandholm 
wrote:


Can someone comment on the double message i think i find in the spec?

There is a the specification of max number of channels in stream info
chapter 8.2

u(3)   | (number of channels)-1.  FLAC supports from 1 to  |
   || 8 channels.


In chapter 8.6.2

A WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK field of 0x0 can be used to
indicate that none of the audio channels of a file correlate with
speaker positions.  This is the case when audio needs to be decoded
into speaker positions (e.g.  Ambisonics B-format audio) or when a
multitrack recording is contained.


.

What does this mean?

Is it that ambisonics cannot be streamed in second or third order with
flac?


In todays widebandwith internet this feels a bit too restrictive, is
it a Dolby business thing?


https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cellar-flac/

Any information or ideas about this?

Bosse Sandholm
Ambisonics hobbyist.

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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Panos Kouvelis]

Hi Marc,

You're right, I thought that this would be easy but I passed the last hour
trying like you and also with flac.exe command line tool using the -ogg
flag.

I used a 16 channel file and the error from the flac utility was that it
wasn't a wavefile extensible and couldn't mark channels, so I opened my
test file using Audition and defined the wavefile extensible as higher
order ambisonics, after that the error I got from the flac encoder was
unsupported number of channels.

I don't really know how this can be done :-(

If you have any news please let me know.

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 10:00 PM Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Hi Panos,
>
> The Ogg FLAC  documentation does not mention that more than 8 channels
> can be encoded.
>
> I tried using ffmpeg; this is working for 8 channels:
>
> ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg -ac 8
> -y noise-8c.ogg
>
> But this is not working for 16 channels:
>
> ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg -ac 16
> -y noise-16c.ogg
>
> The returned error is: "[flac @ 0x562603bd8540] 16 channels not
> supported (max 8)"
>
> And when specifying a channel number higher than 8 but lower than 16,
> the result is a mono file.
>
> It could be that ffmpeg is not capable of encoding more than 8 channels
> for FLAC streams.
>
> What tool (or method) would you suggest to encode more than 8 channels
> in a Ogg container?
>
> Marc
>
> Le 2023-04-30 à 14 h 11, Panos Kouvelis a écrit :
> > Native FLAC can support up to 8 channels; you are right.
> >
> > To support more channels using FLAC, you should use Ogg FLAC, an OGG
> > container containing FLAC-encoded material.
> >
> > If that helps you, you can find more here:
> > https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg
> > Here: https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_or_ogg
> > And here: https://xiph.org/flac/ogg_mapping.html
> >
> > I hope that helps in your case.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > *Pan Athen*
> > SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
> > *
> > Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 9:02 PM Bo-Erik Sandholm 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Can someone comment on the double message i think i find in the spec?
> >>
> >> There is a the specification of max number of channels in stream info
> >> chapter 8.2
> >>
> >> u(3)   | (number of channels)-1.  FLAC supports from 1 to  |
> >>|| 8 channels.
> >>
> >>
> >> In chapter 8.6.2
> >>
> >> A WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK field of 0x0 can be used to
> >> indicate that none of the audio channels of a file correlate with
> >> speaker positions.  This is the case when audio needs to be decoded
> >> into speaker positions (e.g.  Ambisonics B-format audio) or when a
> >> multitrack recording is contained.
> >>
> >>
> >> .
> >>
> >> What does this mean?
> >>
> >> Is it that ambisonics cannot be streamed in second or third order with
> >> flac?
> >>
> >>
> >> In todays widebandwith internet this feels a bit too restrictive, is
> >> it a Dolby business thing?
> >>
> >>
> >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cellar-flac/
> >>
> >> Any information or ideas about this?
> >>
> >> Bosse Sandholm
> >> Ambisonics hobbyist.
>
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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Marc Lavallée]

Hi Panos,

Thanks for trying!

My personal choice is to use the WavPack codec; it was proposed for the 
ambiX format:


https://ambisonics-symposium.org/Members/zotter/copy_of_publications/publications/2011_NachbarZotterSontacchiDeleflie_ambix.pdf

I think it's still a valid choice (even if professionals use WAV or AIFF).

Marc (also an Ambisonics hobbyist).


Le 2023-04-30 à 18 h 27, Panos Kouvelis a écrit :

Hi Marc,

You're right, I thought that this would be easy but I passed the last 
hour trying like you and also with flac.exe command line tool using 
the -ogg flag.


I used a 16 channel file and the error from the flac utility was that 
it wasn't a wavefile extensible and couldn't mark channels, so I 
opened my test file using Audition and defined the wavefile extensible 
as higher order ambisonics, after that the error I got from the flac 
encoder was unsupported number of channels.


I don't really know how this can be done :-(

If you have any news please let me know.

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd 
<http://mediaflake.com/>**

*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 10:00 PM Marc Lavallée  wrote:

Hi Panos,

The Ogg FLAC  documentation does not mention that more than 8
channels
can be encoded.

I tried using ffmpeg; this is working for 8 channels:

ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg
-ac 8
-y noise-8c.ogg

But this is not working for 16 channels:

ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg
-ac 16
-y noise-16c.ogg

The returned error is: "[flac @ 0x562603bd8540] 16 channels not
supported (max 8)"

And when specifying a channel number higher than 8 but lower than 16,
the result is a mono file.

It could be that ffmpeg is not capable of encoding more than 8
channels
for FLAC streams.

What tool (or method) would you suggest to encode more than 8
channels
in a Ogg container?

Marc

Le 2023-04-30 à 14 h 11, Panos Kouvelis a écrit :
> Native FLAC can support up to 8 channels; you are right.
>
> To support more channels using FLAC, you should use Ogg FLAC, an OGG
> container containing FLAC-encoded material.
>
> If that helps you, you can find more here:
> https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg
> Here: https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_or_ogg
> And here: https://xiph.org/flac/ogg_mapping.html
>
> I hope that helps in your case.
>
> Cheers!
>
> *Pan Athen*
> SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd
> <http://mediaflake.com/>*
> Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 9:02 PM Bo-Erik Sandholm

> wrote:
>
>> Can someone comment on the double message i think i find in the
spec?
>>
>> There is a the specification of max number of channels in
stream info
>> chapter 8.2
>>
>> u(3)   | (number of channels)-1.  FLAC supports from 1 to  |
>>        |        | 8 channels.
>>
>>
>> In chapter 8.6.2
>>
>> A WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK field of 0x0 can be used to
>>     indicate that none of the audio channels of a file
correlate with
>>     speaker positions.  This is the case when audio needs to be
decoded
>>     into speaker positions (e.g.  Ambisonics B-format audio) or
when a
>>     multitrack recording is contained.
>>
>>
>> .
>>
>> What does this mean?
>>
>> Is it that ambisonics cannot be streamed in second or third
order with
>> flac?
>>
>>
>> In todays widebandwith internet this feels a bit too
restrictive, is
>> it a Dolby business thing?
>>
>>
>> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cellar-flac/
>>
>> Any information or ideas about this?
>>
>> Bosse Sandholm
>> Ambisonics hobbyist.


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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Gabriel Wolf]

Hi Panos, Hi Marc,

just a side note... some years ago read of the *.caf format.

Its no smaller than wav, but aside of this fact - wouldn't it be a 
perfect choice for (long) ambiX content?


Back then it wasn't possible to use it outside of the appleversum.

In the meantime things changed and it can be read by FFMPEG and Reaper...

Best,
Gabriel


Am 01.05.23 um 00:43 schrieb Marc Lavallée:

Hi Panos,

Thanks for trying!

My personal choice is to use the WavPack codec; it was proposed for 
the ambiX format:


https://ambisonics-symposium.org/Members/zotter/copy_of_publications/publications/2011_NachbarZotterSontacchiDeleflie_ambix.pdf 



I think it's still a valid choice (even if professionals use WAV or 
AIFF).


Marc (also an Ambisonics hobbyist).


Le 2023-04-30 à 18 h 27, Panos Kouvelis a écrit :

Hi Marc,

You're right, I thought that this would be easy but I passed the last 
hour trying like you and also with flac.exe command line tool using 
the -ogg flag.


I used a 16 channel file and the error from the flac utility was that 
it wasn't a wavefile extensible and couldn't mark channels, so I 
opened my test file using Audition and defined the wavefile 
extensible as higher order ambisonics, after that the error I got 
from the flac encoder was unsupported number of channels.


I don't really know how this can be done :-(

If you have any news please let me know.

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd 
<http://mediaflake.com/>**

*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 10:00 PM Marc Lavallée  
wrote:


    Hi Panos,

    The Ogg FLAC  documentation does not mention that more than 8
    channels
    can be encoded.

    I tried using ffmpeg; this is working for 8 channels:

    ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg
    -ac 8
    -y noise-8c.ogg

    But this is not working for 16 channels:

    ffmpeg -f lavfi -i "anoisesrc=d=1:c=pink:a=0.5" -c:a flac -f ogg
    -ac 16
    -y noise-16c.ogg

    The returned error is: "[flac @ 0x562603bd8540] 16 channels not
    supported (max 8)"

    And when specifying a channel number higher than 8 but lower than 
16,

    the result is a mono file.

    It could be that ffmpeg is not capable of encoding more than 8
    channels
    for FLAC streams.

    What tool (or method) would you suggest to encode more than 8
    channels
    in a Ogg container?

    Marc

    Le 2023-04-30 à 14 h 11, Panos Kouvelis a écrit :
    > Native FLAC can support up to 8 channels; you are right.
    >
    > To support more channels using FLAC, you should use Ogg FLAC, 
an OGG

    > container containing FLAC-encoded material.
    >
    > If that helps you, you can find more here:
    > https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_vs_ogg
    > Here: https://xiph.org/flac/faq.html#general__native_or_ogg
    > And here: https://xiph.org/flac/ogg_mapping.html
    >
    > I hope that helps in your case.
    >
    > Cheers!
    >
    > *Pan Athen*
    > SoundFellas <https://soundfellas.com/>, *MediaFlake Ltd
    > <http://mediaflake.com/>*
    > Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools
    >
    >
    > On Sun, Apr 30, 2023 at 9:02 PM Bo-Erik Sandholm
    
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Can someone comment on the double message i think i find in the
    spec?
    >>
    >> There is a the specification of max number of channels in
    stream info
    >> chapter 8.2
    >>
    >> u(3)   | (number of channels)-1.  FLAC supports from 1 to  |
    >>        |        | 8 channels.
    >>
    >>
    >> In chapter 8.6.2
    >>
    >> A WAVEFORMATEXTENSIBLE_CHANNEL_MASK field of 0x0 can be used to
    >>     indicate that none of the audio channels of a file
    correlate with
    >>     speaker positions.  This is the case when audio needs to be
    decoded
    >>     into speaker positions (e.g.  Ambisonics B-format audio) or
    when a
    >>     multitrack recording is contained.
    >>
    >>
    >> .
    >>
    >> What does this mean?
    >>
    >> Is it that ambisonics cannot be streamed in second or third
    order with
    >> flac?
    >>
    >>
    >> In todays widebandwith internet this feels a bit too
    restrictive, is
    >> it a Dolby business thing?
    >>
    >>
    >> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-ietf-cellar-flac/
    >>
    >> Any information or ideas about this?
    >>
    >> Bosse Sandholm
    >> Ambisonics hobbyist.


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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Marc Lavallée]

Hi Gabriel,

Le 2023-04-30 à 19 h 04, Gabriel Wolf a écrit :

Hi Panos, Hi Marc,

just a side note... some years ago read of the *.caf format.

Its no smaller than wav, but aside of this fact - wouldn't it be a 
perfect choice for (long) ambiX content?


Back then it wasn't possible to use it outside of the appleversum.


CAF is a container, not a codec.

AmbiX adopted CAF. So you are correct, it's a good choice.


In the meantime things changed and it can be read by FFMPEG and Reaper...


WavPack can also also be read and written by FFMPEG and Reaper.

I also got tired of waiting for the inclusion of WavPack to libsndfile, 
so I rebased an old pull request and I use it for personal projects:


https://github.com/marclava/libsndfile/tree/wavpack-rebase

I made a pull request too, hoping that the libsndfile team will care: 
https://github.com/libsndfile/libsndfile/pull/928


Marc


Best,
Gabriel

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Re: [Sursound] ASA Academy short course on “Fundamentals of Binaural Hearing” Survey

[Alan Kan]

 list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu<mailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu%3cmailto:Sursound@music.vt.edu>>
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound><https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound>>
>>  - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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Re: [Sursound] FLAC and max number of channels

[Panos Kouvelis]

Hi everybody,

So, FLAC cannot support more than eight channels, even in an Ogg container.

Bosse, if you want to play back HOA through the web, wouldn't you use the
Web Audio API or an ambisonics library based on the Web Audio API?
Something like the JSAmbisonics?

If that is the case, you are lucky because you can fetch multiple 8-channel
FLAC files, sync them with the WAAPI transport functions, and feed them
into your decoder.

After all, streaming more than eight audio channels is generally not
readily accepted in browsers. Splitting the material into multiple
8-channel files synchronized on the playback engine is the logical thing to
do.

Is that helpful?

Cheers!

*Pan Athen*
SoundFellas , *MediaFlake Ltd
*
Digital Media Services, Content, and Tools


On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 2:44 AM Marc Lavallée  wrote:

> Hi Gabriel,
>
> Le 2023-04-30 à 19 h 04, Gabriel Wolf a écrit :
> > Hi Panos, Hi Marc,
> >
> > just a side note... some years ago read of the *.caf format.
> >
> > Its no smaller than wav, but aside of this fact - wouldn't it be a
> > perfect choice for (long) ambiX content?
> >
> > Back then it wasn't possible to use it outside of the appleversum.
>
> CAF is a container, not a codec.
>
> AmbiX adopted CAF. So you are correct, it's a good choice.
>
> > In the meantime things changed and it can be read by FFMPEG and Reaper...
>
> WavPack can also also be read and written by FFMPEG and Reaper.
>
> I also got tired of waiting for the inclusion of WavPack to libsndfile,
> so I rebased an old pull request and I use it for personal projects:
>
> https://github.com/marclava/libsndfile/tree/wavpack-rebase
>
> I made a pull request too, hoping that the libsndfile team will care:
> https://github.com/libsndfile/libsndfile/pull/928
>
> Marc
>
> > Best,
> > Gabriel
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