Re: [Sursound] wifi audio (was Re: Deconstructing soundbar marketing B.S.)

[Wim]

Dante/AVB have a latency under 5 ms, transporting many channels, even @96
kHz. It can be done. Just not wireless.

The major problem with wireless lays in the re-authentication that occurs
after a preset period. That takes up to several hundred millisecs. Not a
problem for a download, or viewing a webpage. Big problem for low-latency
streaming. Running without any encryption makes it less, but then you also
need a good S/R on the wireless side to stop it from having other problems,
like switching channels, or speed.

Apple's solution for AirPlay is having a big buffer in their devices. I
believe the old Airport Express has 1 to 4 MB allocated for streaming
buffer, resulting in seconds of latency. Not a problem for playback.

BT is even far worse, and the range is too limited.

I've tried most of the possibilities, with Apple devices, Raspberry Pi and
ESP8266. It works. It's just not reliable. I've used it for a little while,
for recording in forests, where there's no neighbouring wifi to be found.
I've reverted back to VHF wireless mics. Less of a hassle.

Just my 2 eurocents.

Wim

Op wo 29 mei 2019 om 17:41 schreef mgraves mstvp.com :

> Agreed. Most of what I think of as the "local signal processing" is quite
> speedy. Packetization delay is never less than 20 ms. Transmission delay
> dependent upon the network and distance. Poorly designed network elements
> lead to buffer bloat, which increases latency dramatically.
>
> The very latest DECT chipsets are able to deliver a 12.5 kHz audio path
> from a microphone. Not sure how that's done. DECT is quite opaque. It
> remains the most common approach to a real-time wireless link built
> specifically for streaming audio.
>
> Michael Graves
> mgra...@mstvp.com
> http://www.mgraves.org
> o(713) 861-4005
> c(713) 201-1262
> sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> skype mjgraves
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Sursound  On Behalf Of Chris Woolf
> Sent: Wednesday, May 29, 2019 10:29 AM
> To: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] wifi audio (was Re: Deconstructing soundbar
> marketing B.S.)
>
>
> On 28/05/2019 19:47, Marc Lavallée wrote:
> > Le 28/05/2019 à 13:48, mgraves mstvp.com a écrit :
> >
> > 
> > The latency is not only caused by the packetization; the transmission
> > chain looks like:
> >
> > (microphone -> ADC -> encoding -> BT transmission) -> (BT reception ->
> > decoding) -> (SIP + encoding -> IP transmission) -> (IP reception ->
> > SIP + decoding) -> (DAC -> loudspeaker)
> >
> True enough, but the ADC, encoding, decoding and DAC elements can be
> reduced to <3ms (as happens with some of the best recent digital radio
> mics), which does indeed indicate that the intermediate stages are the ones
> that really do the harm.
>
> A while back I had to make a short range speech reinforcer for a friend
> with a damaged larynx. It had to use an analogue pathway because no
> (affordable at the time) digital path had anything like low enough latency
> to permit normal, unstilted conversation. A target figure ~has~ to be <10ms
> to avoid disturbing speech, and for most people/environments must be <<5ms.
> I find it laughable that "low latency" frequently seems to mean 30-50ms.
>
> Chris Woolf
>
>
>
> ---
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Re: [Sursound] Sursound Digest, Vol 121, Issue 11

[Wim]

I seem to remember the Zylia uses Primo electret capsules. And this post on
the Prorecording list seems to confirm it:
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/prorecordingworkshop/zylia-microphone-t19409070.html

And this AES publication confirms at least the electret part:
http://www.aes.org/e-lib/browse.cfm?elib=17902
"Zamojski, Jakub Affiliation: Zylia sp. z o.o ... a spherical microphone
based on inexpensive electret capsules"


Op do 16 aug. 2018 om 20:33 schreef Stefan Schreiber :

> I don’t believe at all that they (Zylia) are using MEMS clusters...
>
> Otherwise very interesting thoughts in the cited mail below...
>
>   I also believe that noise of different capsules doesn’t add up (so I
> agree with Bo-Erik, at least at first sight), but we can’t get below
> the noise floor of a single capsule. MEMS type or not...
>
> Typical specifications (High performance MEMS audio sensor):
>
> https://www.st.com/resource/en/datasheet/mp23ab01dh.pdf
>
> (SNR: 65dB)
>
> I personally would be very interested in a PRO version of the Zylia
> ZM-1 microphone, especially since even the current version seems to be
> (quite? very?) nice. According to various personal reports
>
> Best regards
>
> Stefan
>
> - - - -
>
> Citando Bo-Erik Sandholm :
>
> > I agree with Len, we have not seen any technical spec of self noise level
> >
> >  of the MEMS (clusters?)  that are used in Zylia.
> >
> >
> >
> >  Only text saying that in normal musical recording situations self noise
> is
> >
> >  not disturbing :-).
> >
> >
> >
> >  I have a personal theory that self noise of physical elements in an
> >
> >  ambisonic mic array is not directly additive.
> >
> >  The basis for my theory is that as we convert to B-format the noise from
> >
> >  all the physical elements are distributed over a spherical surface,
> >
> >  and the noise level for a virtual microphone in decoding do not have the
> >
> >  full sum of the added microphone noise levels.
> >
> >  Only coherent noise within the take up volume of the virtual microphone
> is
> >
> >  relevant in that directional microphones response.
> >
> >
> >
> >  But I am can be totally wrong in this mental visualization of the
> decoding
> >
> >  process. I have not done any mathematical research of this...
> >
> >
> >
> >  Bo-Erik Sandholm
> >
> >  Stockholm
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Re: [Sursound] Cellphone tetrahedral

[Wim]

It's probably USB audio compliant. Requires no drivers on any OS. An iphone
or ipad should work with the famous "Camera connection kit" from Apple.
With Android, YMMV, but it should also work, in principle...

2017-08-18 18:35 GMT+02:00 Steven Boardman :

> Well, don’t be sure it will work with all Android devices. I have been
> there before, but It will also work with a computer.
> It’s $89 till the end of August, which IS what makes it interesting.
> Not sure of the regular price of $179. I need to hear some music recorded
> with it first….
>
> It’s a good choice (for them) to use a ping pong sample, to show the
> spatial abilities. A small emitter of mid/high frequency transients, one
> already knows which direction it will appear next!
>
> Steve
>
>
> > On 18 Aug 2017, at 16:04, mgra...@mstvp.com wrote:
> >
> > Since it's USB it must be Android-only for the moment.
> >
> > Any idea the price?
> >
> > Michael Graves
> > mgra...@mstvp.com
> > http://www.mgraves.org
> > o(713) 861-4005
> > c(713) 201-1262
> > sip:mgra...@mjg.onsip.com
> > skype mjgraves
> >
> >
> > - Original Message - Subject: [Sursound] Cellphone
> tetrahedral
> > From: "Steven Boardman" 
> > Date: 8/18/17 2:36 am
> > To: "Surround Sound discussion group" 
> >
> > http://yun.twirlingvr.com/index.php/home/Lite/lite-en
> >
> > They were also going to bring out a stand alone integrated recording
> > solution.
> > Will download the b-format files and listen in the studio later..
> > Looks precarious, and prone to falling out/over/off. Especially as most
> > usb ports are on the bottom and not that tight.
> >
> > Steve
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Wim]

Hi Augustine,

It uses anything that's USB2 compatible. Stick, harddisk, MP3 player (if
the MP3 player has a disk-like operating mode)...

It's also a USB audio interface.

And there's a recorder counterpart, the LR16. No preamps, so it is very
affordable.


Cheers,

Wim

2017-06-27 17:30 GMT+02:00 Augustine Leudar :

> This Cymatic thing looks promising - so it works as as standalone ?
> What storage medium does it use ?
> Marc - the main problem was the USB cable getting jogged loose despite
> being well out of harms way (or so I thought), cleaners unplugging the
> computer to hoover and then different drivers not being found and
> finally the two motu ultralites making very loud weird clicking noises
> (not buffer related) after a few weeks. There were other issues but Id
> rather keep things in one box rather than having to automate, tweak
> and control an operating system  and remove loads of unessassry
> background processes (even linux).
>
> On 27/06/2017, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> > On Tue, 27 Jun 2017 12:52:41 +0100
> > Augustine Leudar  wrote:
> >> Ive been the computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not
> >> an experience Id like to repeat.
> >
> > What were the problems you experienced?
> >
> > --
> > Marc
> > ___
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> >
>
>
> --
> Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
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Re: [Sursound] Multichannel players for permanent installations

[Wim]

Hi Augustine,


The Cymatic LP16 has 16 outputs and I believe it can be synced to a second
one. If not, there's the 24 channel Utrack 24 that's also a recorder:

https://www.thomann.de/nl/cymatic_audio_live_player_lp_16.htm

https://www.thomann.de/nl/cymatic_utrack24.htm

Both are fairly affordable.

There are several others if you care to buy in China.


Cheers,

Wim

2017-06-27 13:52 GMT+02:00 Augustine Leudar :

> Hi,
> I know I've asked this before but maybe there's some new developments. HAs
> anyone any suggestions for anything up to a permanent 22 channel
> installation (could be two devices started at the same time and set to
> loop) . The best suggestion Ive had I think is one of those old hard disk
> recorders for use with mixing desks ? Any other suggestions ? Ive been the
> computer with multchannel soundcard route and it is not an experience Id
> like to repeat. Must be bomb/cleaner/child/adult proof,
> cheers,
> Gus
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Re: [Sursound] wireless speaker/transmission recommendations

[Wim]

Hi Jim,

You could have a look at the Neutrik Xirium system. It's the only one I
know that is capable of timed multi channel operation:

http://www.neutrik.com/en/news/xirium-digital-wireless-audio

It is expensive, as is to be expected with this number of channels.

Cheers,


Wim

2016-11-16 23:06 GMT+01:00 Augustine Leudar :

> Helmut - I;m not sure thats what he's looking for but it looks cool - is it
> wavefield synthesis system ? How to you do the vertical panning ? Do you
> use amplitude panning for vertical between horizontal WFS arrays like Matt
> Motags WFS designer ?
>
> http://www.mattmontag.com/projects-page/wfs-designer
>
> would love to hear it - let me knoe if you demo in the UK or Ireland
>
>
> On 16 November 2016 at 21:33, Helmut Oellers  wrote:
>
> > ...Show www.holoplot.com or www.syntheticwave.de
> >
> > H.
> >
> > Am 16.11.2016 21:57 schrieb "jim moses" :
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > I'm looking for suggestions for an installation project. I need to
> > transmit
> > > multi-channel audio to up to 10 loudspeakers. The distances are pretty
> > > short but I'm looking for a system with flexible routing.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Jim
> > >
> > > --
> > > Jim Moses
> > > Technical Director/Lecturer
> > > Brown University Music Department and M.E.M.E. (Multimedia and
> Electronic
> > > Music Experiments)
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>
>
> --
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> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
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Re: [Sursound] Facebook spatial workstation

[Wim]

Hi,

I suspect it is squarely aimed at the Oculus Rift, also acquired by
Facebook, as it loads the HRTF from the VR viewer. That also means it's
probably more suited for gaming imho.

From what I've seen in the docs, it's a fairly complete toolkit. The
software developer's toolkit is not included and I haven't searched for it
yet. A Windows version will follow.

Included are two VST2/VST3/AAX plugins, a VR video viewer and  an encoder.
Also, there are setup templates for Nuendo, Reaper and ProTools, which is
nice to get you started.

It supports B-format as input.

As there is also a new release for the ATK for Reaper, I won't be playing
with this one yet, as my interest goes more to the approach from Trond,
which is far more open.


Cheers,

Wim

2016-05-24 13:40 GMT+02:00 Augustine Leudar :

> No sure - I dont have a mac handy so its hard to tell. I notice that it
> gives little hardware info under that section. How many speakers are
> required ? Or is it headphones ?
>
> On 24 May 2016 at 11:51, Steven Boardman 
> wrote:
>
> > Apparently Facebook is now getting in on ambisonic audio!
> >
> > https://facebook360.fb.com/spatial-workstation/
> >
> > I’m just downloading now.
> >
> > Any thoughts?
> >
> > Steve
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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>
>
> --
> Augustine Leudar
> Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
> Company Number : NI635217
> Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
> Belfast BT88LL
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