Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-06 Thread John Leonard 
One of the few times that I found surround in a film interesting and valid was 
in the original Tron, where it seemed to be perfectly acceptable and to enhance 
the on-screen visuals. These days, it’s just mainly annoying and almost always 
badly balanced, but we know that’s largely down to the lack of maintenance in 
the one-man operated multiplexes.

I did enjoy the sound and music in The Grand Budapest Hotel in a well-set-up 
cinema, however, and there was a nice moment during the credits when the double 
balalaika orchestra wrapped into the surround. I think it happens when the 
little cartoon Cossack appears at the bottom of the screen. 

Regards,

John


Please note new email address & direct line phone number
email: j...@johnleonard.uk
phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942


> On 6 Feb 2016, at 16:36, Marc Lavallée  wrote:
> 
> A large screen is probably not a good enough
> reason to fill an entire room with loudspeakers;

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-06 Thread Marc Lavallée 
On Sat, 6 Feb 2016 12:04:01 +,
John Leonard  wrote:

> As for the up-mix to Dolby Atmos that happened for the second film, I
> had no control over how the effects were sourced and the result in
> the cinema was pretty terrible, and totally unnecessary. Rain makes a
> noise when it hits a surface, not when it’s flying through the air.

For effects that are closer to the ground, like rain, could there be
small directional loudspeakers embedded in "media chairs"? Why are
loudspeakers always remotely surrounding the public? Some could be part
of the public...

Maybe surround sound is simply inappropriable for cinema as we know it,
because its a framed media. A large screen is probably not a good enough
reason to fill an entire room with loudspeakers; an augmented sound
experience for a diminished visual experience feels "wrong". Looking
at a screen, in a locked position, was an opportunity to add some
surround sounds "effects", but I feel that my cinema experiences are
better when sound is coming only from the screen. Stereo with a center
channel is probably the best configuration for "framed cinema".

--
Marc
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-06 Thread Augustine Leudar 
That's  pretty much my bread and butter these days, build things up from
scratch using irregular arrays . Most of the 3D foley I do is for theatre
which I see as quite different from 3D art exhibitions/installations I also
do . Film is difficult because cinemas have different hardware and arrays
etc so designing stuff on bespoke site specific arrays such as you can with
theatre or installations wouldn't work with film. Which is why I
potentially like the object orientated approach. DTS contacted me asking
for some mixes after coming to an installation recently as they have very
few people capable of producing proper 3d audio content but haven't heard
from them since. I chatted to one of their guys and weirdly he said they
were trying to mix 3d audio with height on protools with a 7.1 bus - how
can you be expected mix height information with only a horizontal array ?
My experience with film post houses has also been atrocious - their idea of
surround sound is often just upmixing stereo onto all speakers (slightly
more nuanced but not much) , I get that the focus has to be on the screen
but still. As long as protools remains the industry standard its going
to be pretty hard to get any decent surround mixes though I think they have
some kind of surround extension (dolby surround tools) no idea how good it
is . Nuendos better and reaper probably even better.

On 6 February 2016 at 14:00, Peter Lennox  wrote:

> Things may gradually change as new blood comes through.
> I have my students produce 'spatial soundscape foley' where they have to
> produce an entire environment that is plausible - even to the extent of me
> being able to walk around in it (I once had to navigate in pitch black,
> using only the sound environment) - yet synthesised out of found
> ingredients and synthesised ingredients.
>
> Almost every year I get one group who think they can blag it by taking the
> SF mic off to Weatherspoons (a local hostelry), drink a few pints while the
> recording is going on - job done, assignment in the bag. Every year they
> discover it sounds terrible. Then they realise they have to build the pub
> from the ground up (sonically, I mean) - and of course, that's the point of
> the exercise. It soon dawns on them that plausibility does not simply come
> out of accuracy, hence the 'spatial foley'.
>
> Students rapidly realise that the production tools are simply not
> predicated on this kind of task, and so they have to adapt and devise ways
> of working.
>
> So it will be a bigger task than generally recognised, to understand what
> 'spatial' actually means in artificial sound fields.
>
> BTW - one group even had some angry geese in their medieval inn...
>
>
> Dr. Peter Lennox
> Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
> Senior Lecturer in Perception
> College of Arts
> University of Derby
>
> Tel: 01332 593155
> 
> From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Leonard [
> j...@johnleonard.uk]
> Sent: 06 February 2016 12:04
> To: Surround Sound discussion group
> Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
>
> Having had two theatre shows filmed for cinema release, I haven’t had the
> greatest experience engaging with the post production chaps: in both cases
> I’ve had to explain that when the cast members exit upstage, door slams
> shouldn’t be shoved in the rear speakers. Similarly, with a scene where all
> the cast are looking through an upstage window at someone riding across a
> field being chased by dogs, panning the sound effect through the rears and
> then round to the front speakers may be fun, but it doesn’t chime with with
> what’s on the screen.
>
> As for the up-mix to Dolby Atmos that happened for the second film, I had
> no control over how the effects were sourced and the result in the cinema
> was pretty terrible, and totally unnecessary. Rain makes a noise when it
> hits a surface, not when it’s flying through the air.
>
> The DTS system may be better - I have a colleague who’s involved in the
> development and he’s very enthusiastic about the possibilities.
>
> We shall see.
>
> John
>
> Please note new email address & direct line phone number
> email: j...@johnleonard.uk
> phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942
>
>
> > On 5 Feb 2016, at 23:08, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> >
> > Don't get me started on why massive soundstage = shrunken screen!
> > and as for why you don't want to look over your shoulder, expecting to
> see a dinosaur but actually see an nice ice-cream lady - well duh!
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/s

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-06 Thread Peter Lennox 
Things may gradually change as new blood comes through. 
I have my students produce 'spatial soundscape foley' where they have to 
produce an entire environment that is plausible - even to the extent of me 
being able to walk around in it (I once had to navigate in pitch black, using 
only the sound environment) - yet synthesised out of found ingredients and 
synthesised ingredients.

Almost every year I get one group who think they can blag it by taking the SF 
mic off to Weatherspoons (a local hostelry), drink a few pints while the 
recording is going on - job done, assignment in the bag. Every year they 
discover it sounds terrible. Then they realise they have to build the pub from 
the ground up (sonically, I mean) - and of course, that's the point of the 
exercise. It soon dawns on them that plausibility does not simply come out of 
accuracy, hence the 'spatial foley'.

Students rapidly realise that the production tools are simply not predicated on 
this kind of task, and so they have to adapt and devise ways of working.

So it will be a bigger task than generally recognised, to understand what 
'spatial' actually means in artificial sound fields.

BTW - one group even had some angry geese in their medieval inn...


Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby

Tel: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of John Leonard 
[j...@johnleonard.uk]
Sent: 06 February 2016 12:04
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

Having had two theatre shows filmed for cinema release, I haven’t had the 
greatest experience engaging with the post production chaps: in both cases I’ve 
had to explain that when the cast members exit upstage, door slams shouldn’t be 
shoved in the rear speakers. Similarly, with a scene where all the cast are 
looking through an upstage window at someone riding across a field being chased 
by dogs, panning the sound effect through the rears and then round to the front 
speakers may be fun, but it doesn’t chime with with what’s on the screen.

As for the up-mix to Dolby Atmos that happened for the second film, I had no 
control over how the effects were sourced and the result in the cinema was 
pretty terrible, and totally unnecessary. Rain makes a noise when it hits a 
surface, not when it’s flying through the air.

The DTS system may be better - I have a colleague who’s involved in the 
development and he’s very enthusiastic about the possibilities.

We shall see.

John

Please note new email address & direct line phone number
email: j...@johnleonard.uk
phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942


> On 5 Feb 2016, at 23:08, Peter Lennox  wrote:
>
> Don't get me started on why massive soundstage = shrunken screen!
> and as for why you don't want to look over your shoulder, expecting to see a 
> dinosaur but actually see an nice ice-cream lady - well duh!

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, 
please select unsubscribe.

Unsubscribe and Security information contact:   info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact:   f...@derby.ac.uk
All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-06 Thread John Leonard 
Having had two theatre shows filmed for cinema release, I haven’t had the 
greatest experience engaging with the post production chaps: in both cases I’ve 
had to explain that when the cast members exit upstage, door slams shouldn’t be 
shoved in the rear speakers. Similarly, with a scene where all the cast are 
looking through an upstage window at someone riding across a field being chased 
by dogs, panning the sound effect through the rears and then round to the front 
speakers may be fun, but it doesn’t chime with with what’s on the screen. 

As for the up-mix to Dolby Atmos that happened for the second film, I had no 
control over how the effects were sourced and the result in the cinema was 
pretty terrible, and totally unnecessary. Rain makes a noise when it hits a 
surface, not when it’s flying through the air. 

The DTS system may be better - I have a colleague who’s involved in the 
development and he’s very enthusiastic about the possibilities.

We shall see.

John

Please note new email address & direct line phone number
email: j...@johnleonard.uk
phone +44 (0)20 3286 5942


> On 5 Feb 2016, at 23:08, Peter Lennox  wrote:
> 
> Don't get me started on why massive soundstage = shrunken screen!
> and as for why you don't want to look over your shoulder, expecting to see a 
> dinosaur but actually see an nice ice-cream lady - well duh!

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-06 Thread Augustine Leudar 
The Occulus may change things but I can't really imagine sitting and
putting my feet up to watch an Occulus movie.DTS also have their new
object based system coming out - I hope to be able to play with that
shortly.

On 5 February 2016 at 23:08,  wrote:

> It's worth noting  :-) that the Puppy Bowl, which airs this weekend, is
> being presented in VR. I suppose the opportunity for dramatic audio there
> would be limited. :-)  :-)
>
> - Original Message ----- Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in
> center channel,,, not always
> From: "Augustine Leudar" 
> Date: 2/5/16 4:48 pm
> To: s...@mchapman.com, "Surround Sound discussion group" <
> sursound@music.vt.edu>
>
> You set up the wager by knowing the right people, and by being in the
>  right place at the right time and undermining your competition ;)
>  Part of the problem is that if the the audio gets too 3d or immersive
>  then it destroy the illusion of the dated 2d screen. They certainly
>  dont want people looking away from the screen and over their shoulder
>  to see a dog barking etc
>  It certainly sounds like Trond was experiencing the precedence effect
>  - which implies the post house just upmixed from not even stereo - but
>  from mono. Groan.
>
>  On 05/02/2016, Michael Chapman  wrote:
>  > Peter Lennox wrote :
>  >>
>  >> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much
>  >> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos.
>  >
>  > Sounds worth pursuing . . .
>  >
>  > Michael
>  >
>  >
>  > Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an
>  > annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that
>  > sort of stuff ...
>  >
>  >
>  > ___
>  > Sursound mailing list
>  > Sursound@music.vt.edu
>  > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> here, edit
>  > account or options, view archives and so on.
>  >
>
>
>  --
>  www.augustineleudar.com
>  ___
>  Sursound mailing list
>  Sursound@music.vt.edu
>  https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> -- next part --
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL: <
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160205/c51f6c2c/attachment.html
> >
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 
www.augustineleudar.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160206/c16a6df0/attachment.html>
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread mgraves 
It's worth noting  :-) that the Puppy Bowl, which airs this weekend, is being 
presented in VR. I suppose the opportunity for dramatic audio there would be 
limited. :-)  :-) 
 
- Original Message - Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center 
channel,,, not always
From: "Augustine Leudar" 
Date: 2/5/16 4:48 pm
To: s...@mchapman.com, "Surround Sound discussion group" 

You set up the wager by knowing the right people, and by being in the
 right place at the right time and undermining your competition ;)
 Part of the problem is that if the the audio gets too 3d or immersive
 then it destroy the illusion of the dated 2d screen. They certainly
 dont want people looking away from the screen and over their shoulder
 to see a dog barking etc
 It certainly sounds like Trond was experiencing the precedence effect
 - which implies the post house just upmixed from not even stereo - but
 from mono. Groan.
 
 On 05/02/2016, Michael Chapman  wrote:
 > Peter Lennox wrote :
 >>
 >> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much
 >> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos.
 >
 > Sounds worth pursuing . . .
 >
 > Michael
 >
 >
 > Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an
 > annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that
 > sort of stuff ...
 >
 >
 > ___
 > Sursound mailing list
 > Sursound@music.vt.edu
 > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
 > account or options, view archives and so on.
 >
 
 
 -- 
 www.augustineleudar.com
 ___
 Sursound mailing list
 Sursound@music.vt.edu
 https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160205/c51f6c2c/attachment.html>
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread Peter Lennox 
Don't get me started on why massive soundstage = shrunken screen!
and as for why you don't want to look over your shoulder, expecting to see a 
dinosaur but actually see an nice ice-cream lady - well duh!
But look - these issues are only just raising their heads (even if they were 
precisely what Blumlein was banging on about all that time ago). We could, 
gently, help
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby

Tel: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar 
[augustineleu...@gmail.com]
Sent: 05 February 2016 22:48
To: s...@mchapman.com; Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

You set up the wager by knowing the right people, and by being in the
right place at the right time and undermining your competition ;)
Part of the problem is that if the the audio gets too 3d or immersive
then it destroy the illusion of the dated 2d screen. They certainly
dont want people looking away from the screen and over their shoulder
to see a dog barking etc
It certainly sounds like Trond was experiencing the precedence effect
- which implies the post house just upmixed from not even stereo - but
from mono. Groan.

On 05/02/2016, Michael Chapman  wrote:
> Peter Lennox wrote :
>>
>> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much
>> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos.
>
> Sounds worth pursuing.  .  .
>
> Michael
>
>
> Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an
> annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that
> sort of stuff ...
>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
> account or options, view archives and so on.
>


--
www.augustineleudar.com
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, 
please select unsubscribe.

Unsubscribe and Security information contact:   info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact:   f...@derby.ac.uk
All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread Augustine Leudar 
You set up the wager by knowing the right people, and by being in the
right place at the right time and undermining your competition ;)
Part of the problem is that if the the audio gets too 3d or immersive
then it destroy the illusion of the dated 2d screen. They certainly
dont want people looking away from the screen and over their shoulder
to see a dog barking etc
It certainly sounds like Trond was experiencing the precedence effect
- which implies the post house just upmixed from not even stereo - but
from mono. Groan.

On 05/02/2016, Michael Chapman  wrote:
> Peter Lennox wrote :
>>
>> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much
>> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos.
>
> Sounds worth pursuing.  .  .
>
> Michael
>
>
> Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an
> annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that
> sort of stuff ...
>
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit
> account or options, view archives and so on.
>


-- 
www.augustineleudar.com
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread Michael Chapman 
Peter Lennox wrote :
>
> maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much
> spatiallity can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos.

Sounds worth pursuing.  .  .

Michael


Don't want to dilute a good idea : but if the above 'flies' how about an
annual prize for the film with the 'best' sound ... the media luv that
sort of stuff ...


___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread Peter Lennox 
In fairness, these things take time- 
I don't think many people working in film sound will have grounding in 
principles of interaural cross correlation (IACC), or precedence effects, or 
cocktail party effects, or image focus, apparent source width, spaciousness and 
so on. Without these, any display system (5.1, 7.1, atmos, 22.2, ambisonics 
etc) is just a bunch of speakers.
So, fair's fair - at least, if a given system has the potential to carry the 
subtle information, they have a chance - and, sooner or later, someone will 
spot the potential to use the system well. But if that potential isn't there...

This is all redolent of Quadraphonics, which, although conceptually 
misbegotten, could actually have carried a great deal more spatial information 
than it ever got chance to. alright, it couldn't depict phantom imagery to the 
sides (cones of confusion and all that), but it could have carried more 
spaciousness. Of course, 5.1 is only really Quad+dialogue channel. and atmos is 
just a bit of a step beyond. But evolution is a slow process.

maybe we should sponsor some kind of competition, to see how much spatiallity 
can be got into (and out of) Dolby atmos. 
Actually, I quite like that - working against the constraints of an inadequate 
system - well, it's a bit like racing Landrover Defenders; bonkers but quite 
fun. I'll bet £5 right now (and I'm a Yorkshireman, so we don't do that kind of 
thing lightly) That, if I had my hands on the gear to encode to Dolby Atmos, 
then I could make it - not accurate' but certainly not coming out of the 
nearest speaker - wherever you're sitting - I bet I could make it somewhat 
spacious.
How do we set up this wager?

Glen Dickens - you on this list?
cheers
ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby

Tel: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar 
[augustineleu...@gmail.com]
Sent: 05 February 2016 19:26
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

It depends on the mix engineer more than the potential of the system. They
generally  don't have a clue how to mix in surround even in high end post
houses.

On Friday, 5 February 2016, Trond Lossius  wrote:

> For what it’s worth I recently attended a Dolby Atmos screening of the
> most recent Star Wars movie. I ended up in the frontmost left seat, and I
> have to say that I was surprised that next to all of the sound of the
> screening for me appeared to come from one and one only speaker just off
> the screen to the left. I didn’t expect to get the same experience as if
> seated in the middle, but still t thought that Dolby Atmos mixing and
> reproduction would be much more resilient to off-centre listening.
>
> But then again, I’m generally pretty underwhelmed with how the Doly Atmos
> format is being used in most blockbuster Hollywood productions. Apart from
> a few swishes here and there as a mere audible spectacle, there seem to be
> a lack of understanding and imagination with respect to how spatial sound
> can help invite a deeper sense of immersion in the places where the story
> unfolds.
>
> Cheers,
> Trond
>
>
> > On 05 Feb 2016, at 15:43, jim moses >
> wrote:
> >
> > I the state the obvious - something I imagine everyone on this list
> > understands..
> >
> > The main reason to keep dialogue in the center channel is that panned
> > phantom images are unstable for most of the audience in a theater.
> Panning
> > to a center speaker fixes the location for everyone, instead of moving to
> > the speaker you are sitting closest to.
> >
> > jm
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:29 AM, >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, in Gravity this is easily possible in the opening shot: it's a
> super
> >> long
> >> wide shot where Clooney is off picture in the beginning. There is plenty
> >> of tome to absorb the scene and the
> >> position of everything. This is an obvious opportunity to pan dialogue
> as
> >> it is really underlining the
> >> dramaturgical intent. And this always is the criteria.
> >> If the picture cuts are too fast (and this limit is reached soon),
> >> following the
> >> perspective panning-wise exaggerates the edits, makes them obvious
> >> and potentially destroys the seamless flow of the narration. That's the
> >> main reason
> >> for keeping the dialogue in the center. If the shots are long enough,
> >> if there are off-voices, if there is movement or something similar in a
> >> dramaturgical sense,
> >> t

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread Augustine Leudar 
It depends on the mix engineer more than the potential of the system. They
generally  don't have a clue how to mix in surround even in high end post
houses.

On Friday, 5 February 2016, Trond Lossius  wrote:

> For what it’s worth I recently attended a Dolby Atmos screening of the
> most recent Star Wars movie. I ended up in the frontmost left seat, and I
> have to say that I was surprised that next to all of the sound of the
> screening for me appeared to come from one and one only speaker just off
> the screen to the left. I didn’t expect to get the same experience as if
> seated in the middle, but still t thought that Dolby Atmos mixing and
> reproduction would be much more resilient to off-centre listening.
>
> But then again, I’m generally pretty underwhelmed with how the Doly Atmos
> format is being used in most blockbuster Hollywood productions. Apart from
> a few swishes here and there as a mere audible spectacle, there seem to be
> a lack of understanding and imagination with respect to how spatial sound
> can help invite a deeper sense of immersion in the places where the story
> unfolds.
>
> Cheers,
> Trond
>
>
> > On 05 Feb 2016, at 15:43, jim moses >
> wrote:
> >
> > I the state the obvious - something I imagine everyone on this list
> > understands..
> >
> > The main reason to keep dialogue in the center channel is that panned
> > phantom images are unstable for most of the audience in a theater.
> Panning
> > to a center speaker fixes the location for everyone, instead of moving to
> > the speaker you are sitting closest to.
> >
> > jm
> >
> > On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:29 AM, >
> wrote:
> >
> >> Yes, in Gravity this is easily possible in the opening shot: it's a
> super
> >> long
> >> wide shot where Clooney is off picture in the beginning. There is plenty
> >> of tome to absorb the scene and the
> >> position of everything. This is an obvious opportunity to pan dialogue
> as
> >> it is really underlining the
> >> dramaturgical intent. And this always is the criteria.
> >> If the picture cuts are too fast (and this limit is reached soon),
> >> following the
> >> perspective panning-wise exaggerates the edits, makes them obvious
> >> and potentially destroys the seamless flow of the narration. That's the
> >> main reason
> >> for keeping the dialogue in the center. If the shots are long enough,
> >> if there are off-voices, if there is movement or something similar in a
> >> dramaturgical sense,
> >> then panning the dialogue to the position on (or off) screen may enhance
> >> the sense of space
> >> and the story. More than 90% of all dialogue is in the center, though.
> But
> >> yes, sometimes
> >> it is an improvement. And yes, in animation the voices are super-clean
> as
> >> they are recorded
> >> in a studio - and thus they can be panned easily if wanted. With
> location
> >> sound, there may be considerable background sound
> >> behind the voices - and if such a signal is panned, the (mono-)
> background
> >> jumps around as well. Very noticable
> >> and very disturbing. Location audio is very much used these days by many
> >> directors (Tarantino, e.g.).
> >> Robert Altman was famous for insisting on 100% location dialogue. This
> >> makes panning dialogue almost impossible,
> >> even if it would enhance the story.
> >>
> >> Best, Florian
> >>
> >>
> >> 
> >> Von: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu ]" im
> Auftrag von
> >> "Courville, Daniel [courville.dan...@uqam.ca ]
> >> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Februar 2016 18:15
> >> An: sursound@music.vt.edu 
> >> Betreff: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
> >>
> >>>>> And which director takes care about stereo compatible picture
> editing?
> >>>
> >>> Alfonso Cuaron is possibly one such director. Both Children of Men and
> >>> Gravity often panned the dialogue to match the position of the actor on
> >>> screen. It's very noticeable right at the start of Gravity; first you
> hear
> >>> George Clooney's voice coming from far right and as the shot zooms in
> and
> >>> you start to see him appear on the far right of the screen, his
> dialogue
> >>> moves across to match.
> >>
> >> Every Pixar animation movies have panned dialogues.
> >>
> >> Since the voices ar

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread Trond Lossius 
For what it’s worth I recently attended a Dolby Atmos screening of the most 
recent Star Wars movie. I ended up in the frontmost left seat, and I have to 
say that I was surprised that next to all of the sound of the screening for me 
appeared to come from one and one only speaker just off the screen to the left. 
I didn’t expect to get the same experience as if seated in the middle, but 
still t thought that Dolby Atmos mixing and reproduction would be much more 
resilient to off-centre listening.

But then again, I’m generally pretty underwhelmed with how the Doly Atmos 
format is being used in most blockbuster Hollywood productions. Apart from a 
few swishes here and there as a mere audible spectacle, there seem to be a lack 
of understanding and imagination with respect to how spatial sound can help 
invite a deeper sense of immersion in the places where the story unfolds.

Cheers,
Trond


> On 05 Feb 2016, at 15:43, jim moses  wrote:
> 
> I the state the obvious - something I imagine everyone on this list
> understands..
> 
> The main reason to keep dialogue in the center channel is that panned
> phantom images are unstable for most of the audience in a theater. Panning
> to a center speaker fixes the location for everyone, instead of moving to
> the speaker you are sitting closest to.
> 
> jm
> 
> On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:29 AM,  wrote:
> 
>> Yes, in Gravity this is easily possible in the opening shot: it's a super
>> long
>> wide shot where Clooney is off picture in the beginning. There is plenty
>> of tome to absorb the scene and the
>> position of everything. This is an obvious opportunity to pan dialogue as
>> it is really underlining the
>> dramaturgical intent. And this always is the criteria.
>> If the picture cuts are too fast (and this limit is reached soon),
>> following the
>> perspective panning-wise exaggerates the edits, makes them obvious
>> and potentially destroys the seamless flow of the narration. That's the
>> main reason
>> for keeping the dialogue in the center. If the shots are long enough,
>> if there are off-voices, if there is movement or something similar in a
>> dramaturgical sense,
>> then panning the dialogue to the position on (or off) screen may enhance
>> the sense of space
>> and the story. More than 90% of all dialogue is in the center, though. But
>> yes, sometimes
>> it is an improvement. And yes, in animation the voices are super-clean as
>> they are recorded
>> in a studio - and thus they can be panned easily if wanted. With location
>> sound, there may be considerable background sound
>> behind the voices - and if such a signal is panned, the (mono-) background
>> jumps around as well. Very noticable
>> and very disturbing. Location audio is very much used these days by many
>> directors (Tarantino, e.g.).
>> Robert Altman was famous for insisting on 100% location dialogue. This
>> makes panning dialogue almost impossible,
>> even if it would enhance the story.
>> 
>> Best, Florian
>> 
>> 
>> ____________________
>> Von: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]" im Auftrag von
>> "Courville, Daniel [courville.dan...@uqam.ca]
>> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Februar 2016 18:15
>> An: sursound@music.vt.edu
>> Betreff: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
>> 
>>>>> And which director takes care about stereo compatible picture editing?
>>> 
>>> Alfonso Cuaron is possibly one such director. Both Children of Men and
>>> Gravity often panned the dialogue to match the position of the actor on
>>> screen. It's very noticeable right at the start of Gravity; first you hear
>>> George Clooney's voice coming from far right and as the shot zooms in and
>>> you start to see him appear on the far right of the screen, his dialogue
>>> moves across to match.
>> 
>> Every Pixar animation movies have panned dialogues.
>> 
>> Since the voices are recorded in individual booth, they start audio
>> post-production with separate tracks for every voices, making panning
>> easier and more effective, although making the mix more time consuming.
>> 
>> - Daniel
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>&g

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread jim moses 
I the state the obvious - something I imagine everyone on this list
understands..

The main reason to keep dialogue in the center channel is that panned
phantom images are unstable for most of the audience in a theater. Panning
to a center speaker fixes the location for everyone, instead of moving to
the speaker you are sitting closest to.

jm

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 8:29 AM,  wrote:

> Yes, in Gravity this is easily possible in the opening shot: it's a super
> long
> wide shot where Clooney is off picture in the beginning. There is plenty
> of tome to absorb the scene and the
> position of everything. This is an obvious opportunity to pan dialogue as
> it is really underlining the
> dramaturgical intent. And this always is the criteria.
> If the picture cuts are too fast (and this limit is reached soon),
> following the
> perspective panning-wise exaggerates the edits, makes them obvious
> and potentially destroys the seamless flow of the narration. That's the
> main reason
> for keeping the dialogue in the center. If the shots are long enough,
> if there are off-voices, if there is movement or something similar in a
> dramaturgical sense,
> then panning the dialogue to the position on (or off) screen may enhance
> the sense of space
> and the story. More than 90% of all dialogue is in the center, though. But
> yes, sometimes
> it is an improvement. And yes, in animation the voices are super-clean as
> they are recorded
> in a studio - and thus they can be panned easily if wanted. With location
> sound, there may be considerable background sound
> behind the voices - and if such a signal is panned, the (mono-) background
> jumps around as well. Very noticable
> and very disturbing. Location audio is very much used these days by many
> directors (Tarantino, e.g.).
> Robert Altman was famous for insisting on 100% location dialogue. This
> makes panning dialogue almost impossible,
> even if it would enhance the story.
>
> Best, Florian
>
>
> 
> Von: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]" im Auftrag von
> "Courville, Daniel [courville.dan...@uqam.ca]
> Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Februar 2016 18:15
> An: sursound@music.vt.edu
> Betreff: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always
>
> >>>And which director takes care about stereo compatible picture editing?
> >
> >Alfonso Cuaron is possibly one such director. Both Children of Men and
> >Gravity often panned the dialogue to match the position of the actor on
> >screen. It's very noticeable right at the start of Gravity; first you hear
> >George Clooney's voice coming from far right and as the shot zooms in and
> >you start to see him appear on the far right of the screen, his dialogue
> >moves across to match.
>
> Every Pixar animation movies have panned dialogues.
>
> Since the voices are recorded in individual booth, they start audio
> post-production with separate tracks for every voices, making panning
> easier and more effective, although making the mix more time consuming.
>
> - Daniel
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 
Jim Moses
Technical Director/Lecturer
Brown University Music Department and M.E.M.E. (Multimedia and Electronic
Music Experiments)
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20160205/3c06e6b7/attachment.html>
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-05 Thread florian.camerer 
Yes, in Gravity this is easily possible in the opening shot: it's a super long
wide shot where Clooney is off picture in the beginning. There is plenty of 
tome to absorb the scene and the
position of everything. This is an obvious opportunity to pan dialogue as it is 
really underlining the
dramaturgical intent. And this always is the criteria.
If the picture cuts are too fast (and this limit is reached soon), following the
perspective panning-wise exaggerates the edits, makes them obvious
and potentially destroys the seamless flow of the narration. That's the main 
reason
for keeping the dialogue in the center. If the shots are long enough,
if there are off-voices, if there is movement or something similar in a 
dramaturgical sense,
then panning the dialogue to the position on (or off) screen may enhance the 
sense of space
and the story. More than 90% of all dialogue is in the center, though. But yes, 
sometimes
it is an improvement. And yes, in animation the voices are super-clean as they 
are recorded
in a studio - and thus they can be panned easily if wanted. With location 
sound, there may be considerable background sound 
behind the voices - and if such a signal is panned, the (mono-) background 
jumps around as well. Very noticable
and very disturbing. Location audio is very much used these days by many 
directors (Tarantino, e.g.).
Robert Altman was famous for insisting on 100% location dialogue. This makes 
panning dialogue almost impossible,
even if it would enhance the story.

Best, Florian



Von: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu]" im Auftrag von 
"Courville, Daniel [courville.dan...@uqam.ca]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 04. Februar 2016 18:15
An: sursound@music.vt.edu
Betreff: Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

>>>And which director takes care about stereo compatible picture editing?
>
>Alfonso Cuaron is possibly one such director. Both Children of Men and
>Gravity often panned the dialogue to match the position of the actor on
>screen. It's very noticeable right at the start of Gravity; first you hear
>George Clooney's voice coming from far right and as the shot zooms in and
>you start to see him appear on the far right of the screen, his dialogue
>moves across to match.

Every Pixar animation movies have panned dialogues.

Since the voices are recorded in individual booth, they start audio 
post-production with separate tracks for every voices, making panning easier 
and more effective, although making the mix more time consuming.

- Daniel
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-04 Thread Courville, Daniel 

>>>And which director takes care about stereo compatible picture editing?
>
>Alfonso Cuaron is possibly one such director. Both Children of Men and
>Gravity often panned the dialogue to match the position of the actor on
>screen. It's very noticeable right at the start of Gravity; first you hear
>George Clooney's voice coming from far right and as the shot zooms in and
>you start to see him appear on the far right of the screen, his dialogue
>moves across to match.

Every Pixar animation movies have panned dialogues.

Since the voices are recorded in individual booth, they start audio 
post-production with separate tracks for every voices, making panning easier 
and more effective, although making the mix more time consuming.

- Daniel
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] Dialogue in center channel,,, not always

2016-02-03 Thread James Anthony Enda Bates 
>>And which director takes care about stereo compatible picture editing?

Alfonso Cuaron is possibly one such director. Both Children of Men and
Gravity often panned the dialogue to match the position of the actor on
screen. It's very noticeable right at the start of Gravity; first you hear
George Clooney's voice coming from far right and as the shot zooms in and
you start to see him appear on the far right of the screen, his dialogue
moves across to match.
Of course that film was 95% CGI which is a help for this type of thing! :)
http://www.theverge.com/2013/10/10/4822482/the-sound-design-of-gravity-glenn-freemantle-skip-lievsay
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.