Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center (S?ren Bendixen)

2020-10-03 Thread Justin Bennett
I agree with Gus, some kind of amplitude panning would work best.

you might need to adjust the panning curves depending on the directivity of 
the speakers, their height and the acoustics of the room. 

I made a sculpture once with two crossed (almost) bidirectional loudspeakers
hanging high above the visitor’s heads, they then heard mostly the reflections
from the walls (not a very big space) and panning effects worked really well.

To encode the audio I used as far as I remember, ambisonic material but then
decoded to Blumlein virtual mics. 

There is also a version of Meyer Sound’s MIAP for Max/MSP

https://cycling74.com/tools/miap-manifold-interface-amplitude-panning/

which seems to work very well with non-standard / assymetrical set-ups

best wishes, Justin

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> Today's Topics:
> 
>   1. speakers pointing away from center (S?ren Bendixen)
>   2. Re: speakers pointing away from center (Augustine Leudar)
>   3. Re: speakers pointing away from center (Augustine Leudar)
>   4. Re: speakers pointing away from center (Augustine Leudar)
> 
> 
> --------------
> 
> Message: 1
> Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 23:30:16 +0200
> From: S?ren Bendixen 
> To: Sursound@music.vt.edu
> Subject: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
> 
> Hi Surround group
> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is causing 
> me some concern
> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by 4 
> channels of sound)
> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of approx. 
> 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point upwards, a bit. 
> Hope this is understandable.
> 
> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy" 
> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not 
> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to 
> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might just 
> have to produce directly.
> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
> 
> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign should 
> "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one for each 
> side and one for the back of the animal.
> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design, The 
> diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
> 
> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we add 
> speak).
> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
> 
> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
> 
> S?ren Bendixen
> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
> 
> Company: Audiotect
> 
> Radio Audiotect: Playlist 
> <https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ>
> 
> 
> 
> Latest Music and Sounddesign
> 
> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
> Ribe, Denmark
> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
> 
> 
> 
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> <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailm

Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

2020-10-03 Thread Akshay Cadambi
Hey Søren,
Seconding DBAP.

I worked on an installation with ~18 embedded speakers, all pointing
outward, irregularly spaced, and at different heights. I tested various
panning methods and ended up with DBAP as it sounded the best and was most
consistent. If your sound objects move, I’d also recommend adding a slight
Doppler shift. I typically like to call an outward pointing speaker set as
a "divergent" speaker set, and traditional surround configurations as
"convergent".

I also found that having an additional set of traditional convergent
speakers outside the divergent speaker set can be extremely helpful in
creating a foreground-background dichotomy. Where the outer convergent set
has minimal “environmental” sounds and the divergent set has the
"foreground" sounds. You could also (just ever so slightly) pan a sound
between the convergent and divergent set in a given region to create even
more envelopment.

I don't have enough experience with some of the commonly available software
to provide any suggestions. I used C++, along with allolib
/allosystem
, Gamma
, and an audio-graph library
 that I wrote a while back.

Good luck!

-Akshay Cadambi

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 09:26 Søren Bendixen 
wrote:

> Thanks for the feedback. I feel more reassured.
>
> Spat can do DBAP, and I´m waitng for an answer from Flux regarding speaker
> configuration.
>
> I think it wold be ideal to make the right set up, but I could be theory
> only - Don´t know - I wil make som tests next week.
>
>
>
> I´m on a tight schedule, so learning new software is a challenge, but I
> will look into it.
>
>
>
> Best regards
>
> Søren
>
>
>
> > Den 3. okt. 2020 kl. 11.23 skrev Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>:
>
> >
>
> > in which you CAN tell the software where the speakers are and ideally in
>
> > which direction they are facing.
>
> >
>
> > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 10:20, Augustine Leudar  >
>
> > wrote:
>
> >
>
> >> just to elaborate with an example - I once had to pan a sound around an
>
> >> octagon of speakers "facing outward" - using a normal octaphonic panner
>
> >> worked with this just as well as if the speakers had been facing inward
> -
>
> >> because basically the software doesn't know where you've put speakers-
> it
>
> >> just uses panning laws to pan sounds from one speaker to the next, you
> just
>
> >> need to play around with speaker positions/directivty/panning law etc .
> I
>
> >> even used an octaphonic panner in which the software thought the
> speakers
>
> >> were in a nice circle - to pan a sound round a part of a maze once. You
>
> >> just have to watch your panning law/speaker positions so there's not too
>
> >> many holes in the panning - and make sure you're not trying to pan
> "across
>
> >> the circle" as obviously if your speakers are not in a circle it will
> lead
>
> >> to unpredictable results. This is a workaround - obviously some form of
>
> >> special DBAP software is preferred.
>
> >>
>
> >> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 09:35, Augustine Leudar <
> augustineleu...@gmail.com>
>
> >> wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >>> Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics
> in
>
> >>> fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude
> panning.
>
> >>> You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of
> the
>
> >>> sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map,
> or
>
> >>> you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to
> do a
>
> >>> similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this
> capability
>
> >>> too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you
> can
>
> >>> use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly
> meant
>
> >>> to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a
> sound
>
> >>> up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you
> put
>
> >>> the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
>
> >>> all the best
>
> >>> Gus
>
> >>>
>
> >>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
>
> >>> wrote:
>
> >>>
>
>  Hi Surround group
>
>  For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
>
>  causing me some concern
>
>  one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded
> by
>
>  4 channels of sound)
>
>  BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
>
>  The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
>
>  approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
>
>  upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>
> 
>
>  I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
>
>  configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do
> not
>
>  immediately kno

Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

2020-10-03 Thread Søren Bendixen
Thanks for the feedback. I feel more reassured.
Spat can do DBAP, and I´m waitng for an answer from Flux regarding speaker 
configuration.
I think it wold be ideal to make the right set up, but I could be theory only - 
Don´t know - I wil make som tests next week.

I´m on a tight schedule, so learning new software is a challenge, but I will 
look into it.

Best regards
Søren

> Den 3. okt. 2020 kl. 11.23 skrev Augustine Leudar :
> 
> in which you CAN tell the software where the speakers are and ideally in
> which direction they are facing.
> 
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 10:20, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
> 
>> just to elaborate with an example - I once had to pan a sound around an
>> octagon of speakers "facing outward" - using a normal octaphonic panner
>> worked with this just as well as if the speakers had been facing inward -
>> because basically the software doesn't know where you've put speakers- it
>> just uses panning laws to pan sounds from one speaker to the next, you just
>> need to play around with speaker positions/directivty/panning law etc . I
>> even used an octaphonic panner in which the software thought the speakers
>> were in a nice circle - to pan a sound round a part of a maze once. You
>> just have to watch your panning law/speaker positions so there's not too
>> many holes in the panning - and make sure you're not trying to pan "across
>> the circle" as obviously if your speakers are not in a circle it will lead
>> to unpredictable results. This is a workaround - obviously some form of
>> special DBAP software is preferred.
>> 
>> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 09:35, Augustine Leudar 
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
>>> fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
>>> You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
>>> sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
>>> you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
>>> similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
>>> too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
>>> use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
>>> to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
>>> up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
>>> the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
>>> all the best
>>> Gus
>>> 
>>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Surround group
 For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
 causing me some concern
 one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by
 4 channels of sound)
 BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
 The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
 approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
 upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
 
 I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
 configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
 immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
 experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
 just have to produce directly.
 I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
 
 One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
 should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
 for each side and one for the back of the animal.
 The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
 The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
 
 In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we
 add speak).
 If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
 
 Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
 
 Søren Bendixen
 Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
 
 Company: Audiotect
 
 Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
 https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ
> 
 
 
 
 Latest Music and Sounddesign
 
 Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
 
 
 
 
 
 
 "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
 Ribe, Denmark
 From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
 
 
 
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Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

2020-10-03 Thread Augustine Leudar
in which you CAN tell the software where the speakers are and ideally in
which direction they are facing.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 10:20, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> just to elaborate with an example - I once had to pan a sound around an
> octagon of speakers "facing outward" - using a normal octaphonic panner
> worked with this just as well as if the speakers had been facing inward -
> because basically the software doesn't know where you've put speakers- it
> just uses panning laws to pan sounds from one speaker to the next, you just
> need to play around with speaker positions/directivty/panning law etc . I
> even used an octaphonic panner in which the software thought the speakers
> were in a nice circle - to pan a sound round a part of a maze once. You
> just have to watch your panning law/speaker positions so there's not too
> many holes in the panning - and make sure you're not trying to pan "across
> the circle" as obviously if your speakers are not in a circle it will lead
> to unpredictable results. This is a workaround - obviously some form of
> special DBAP software is preferred.
>
> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 09:35, Augustine Leudar 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
>> fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
>> You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
>> sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
>> you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
>> similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
>> too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
>> use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
>> to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
>> up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
>> the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
>> all the best
>> Gus
>>
>> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Surround group
>>> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
>>> causing me some concern
>>> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by
>>> 4 channels of sound)
>>> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
>>> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
>>> approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
>>> upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>>>
>>> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
>>> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
>>> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
>>> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
>>> just have to produce directly.
>>> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
>>>
>>> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
>>> should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
>>> for each side and one for the back of the animal.
>>> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
>>> The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
>>>
>>> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we
>>> add speak).
>>> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
>>>
>>> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>>>
>>> Søren Bendixen
>>> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
>>>
>>> Company: Audiotect
>>>
>>> Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
>>> https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ
>>> >
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Latest Music and Sounddesign
>>>
>>> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
>>> Ribe, Denmark
>>> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>> >
>>> ___
>>> Sursound mailing list
>>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>>> edit account or

Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

2020-10-03 Thread Augustine Leudar
just to elaborate with an example - I once had to pan a sound around an
octagon of speakers "facing outward" - using a normal octaphonic panner
worked with this just as well as if the speakers had been facing inward -
because basically the software doesn't know where you've put speakers- it
just uses panning laws to pan sounds from one speaker to the next, you just
need to play around with speaker positions/directivty/panning law etc . I
even used an octaphonic panner in which the software thought the speakers
were in a nice circle - to pan a sound round a part of a maze once. You
just have to watch your panning law/speaker positions so there's not too
many holes in the panning - and make sure you're not trying to pan "across
the circle" as obviously if your speakers are not in a circle it will lead
to unpredictable results. This is a workaround - obviously some form of
special DBAP software is preferred.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 09:35, Augustine Leudar 
wrote:

> Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
> fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
> You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
> sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
> you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
> similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
> too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
> use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
> to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
> up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
> the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
> all the best
> Gus
>
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Surround group
>> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
>> causing me some concern
>> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by 4
>> channels of sound)
>> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
>> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
>> approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
>> upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>>
>> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
>> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
>> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
>> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
>> just have to produce directly.
>> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
>>
>> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
>> should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
>> for each side and one for the back of the animal.
>> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
>> The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
>>
>> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we add
>> speak).
>> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
>>
>> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>>
>> Søren Bendixen
>> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
>>
>> Company: Audiotect
>>
>> Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
>> https://open.spotify.com/playlist/75xmPEKthgagQwwtvllfeJ?si=IqiVEz1lTOK9HKOXOtEcgQ
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>> Latest Music and Sounddesign
>>
>> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
>> Ribe, Denmark
>> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
>>
>>
>>
>> -- next part --
>> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20201002/538d72d5/attachment.htm
>> >
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>> Name: IMG_5395.png
>> Type: image/png
>> Size: 113871 bytes
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>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20201002/538d72d5/attachment.png
>> >
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>> Size: 26694 bytes
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>> URL: <
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20201002/538d72d5/attachment.jpeg
>> >
>> ___
>> Sursound mailing list
>> Sursound@music.vt.edu
>> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
>> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>>
>
>
> --
> Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
> Business website: www.magikdoor.net
> +44(0)7555784775
>
>

-- 
Artist website: www.augustineleudar.com
Business website: www.magikdoor.net
+44(0)7555784775
-- next part --
An HTM

Re: [Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

2020-10-03 Thread Augustine Leudar
Hi I do these kinds of things all the time - far more than ambisonics in
fact basically you want to use Dbap or just any form of amplitude panning.
You could try using ICST in max msp which allows you to draw a map of the
sp[eakers, adjust directivity and then pan the sound around said map, or
you could try Immersive DSPs  Immergo system which will allow you to do a
similar thing with certain soundcards, I believe Spat has this capability
too. If Learning this software is too much for your time schedule you can
use normal surround sound panners in a way that they're not strictly meant
to be used. For example a normal quadraphonic panner will still pan a sound
up and down a straight line of 4 speakers instead of a square if you put
the speakers in a straight line instead of a square etc etc
all the best
Gus

On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 22:30, Søren Bendixen 
wrote:

> Hi Surround group
> For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is
> causing me some concern
> one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by 4
> channels of sound)
> BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
> The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of
> approx. 30 - 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point
> upwards, a bit. Hope this is understandable.
>
> I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy"
> configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not
> immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to
> experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might
> just have to produce directly.
> I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...
>
> One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign
> should "make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one
> for each side and one for the back of the animal.
> The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design,
> The diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.
>
> In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we add
> speak).
> If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.
>
> Med venlig hilsen/Best regards
>
> Søren Bendixen
> Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist
>
> Company: Audiotect
>
> Radio Audiotect: Playlist <
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> >
>
>
>
> Latest Music and Sounddesign
>
> Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
> Ribe, Denmark
> From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition
>
>
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[Sursound] speakers pointing away from center

2020-10-02 Thread Søren Bendixen
Hi Surround group
For my next exhibition sounddesign I need to make to set ups that is causing me 
some concern
one set up is 4 speakers, another is 6 speakers (but are only feeded by 4 
channels of sound)
BUT for both set ups the speakers are point away from center.
The speakers are arranged in a circle, They play out at an angle of approx. 30 
- 40 degrees, seen from a horizontal angle, so they point upwards, a bit. Hope 
this is understandable.

I usually work in reaper + Spat Revolution when I have to make "crazy" 
configurations, but this one I can not get drawn in spat R and I do not 
immediately know a program that can do such a set up. Next week I have to 
experiment with a similar high-pitched line-up - and think that I might just 
have to produce directly.
I will try quad format first and see/hear what happens...

One of the set ups is a Mammuth standing in a river. The sounddesign should 
"make the mammuth come alive - so I have one speaker for head, one for each 
side and one for the back of the animal.
The diameter for the speaker circle is around one meter for this design, The 
diameter for the other design is approx. 2 meters.

In both cases there must be a coherent sound design (in one set up we add 
speak).
If anyone has ideas, experiences I would love to hear about it.

Med venlig hilsen/Best regards

Søren Bendixen
Composer/Sound Designer & Guitarist

Company: Audiotect

Radio Audiotect: Playlist 




Latest Music and Sounddesign

Stringquartet no. 1 - Release d. 200920






"HEX - Museum for Witch Hunt"
Ribe, Denmark
From 30 june 2020 - Permanent exhibition



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