Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Peter Lennox]

Ah! Thanks - you've told me more than or IT dept. did (though I suppose they 
may be busy)

Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox 
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox 


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Paul Hodges
Sent: 08 December 2015 12:24
To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

--On 08 December 2015 10:22 + Peter Lennox <p.len...@derby.ac.uk>
wrote:

> having problems with our internet access at the moment...

(It's because of a severe DDoS on Janet, the UK universities network.)

Paul

--
Paul Hodges

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, 
please select unsubscribe.

Unsubscribe and Security information contact:   info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact:   f...@derby.ac.uk
All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 12/08/2015 01:47 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:

Couldn't find the full paper again - but there's this one in full: 
https://www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics/litovsky.pdf

The abstract ends "...models that attribute the precedecence effect entirely to 
processes that involve binaural differences are no longer viable"

The researchers are known as excellent contributors to the corpus of 
psychophysics (Ruth Litovsky did the defninitive review of precedence effects).

So I would be interested to examine the differences in their findings and 
Huddersfield's


thanks, very interesting! a quick glance makes me very curious, i'm 
looking forward to reading this tonight.



--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Peter Lennox]

I'll dig it out - having problems with our internet access at the moment...

Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox 
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox 

-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn 
Nettingsmeier
Sent: 08 December 2015 10:19
To: Surround Sound discussion group <sursound@music.vt.edu>
Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

On 12/07/2015 02:31 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:
> But see: Localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane: Effect 
> of stimulus duration Roberto M. Dizon and Ruth Y. Litovsky Received
> 19 June 2003; accepted for publication 22 March 2004

interesting!

i wonder:

> Lead-lag pairs of   noise
> bursts   were   presented   from   locations   spaced   in   15°
> increments   in   the   frontal, median-sagittal plane, with a 2-ms
> delay in their onsets, for source durations of 1, 10, 25, and 50-ms.

does this mean they used the same noise source, where one channel was actually 
delayed, or the same noise source and one channel was just faded up later 
("onset delay" could be read this way), or different noise sources altogether?

in order to investigate "phantom source" mechanisms, it should be the same 
noise source, delayed, which is likely what they did, but i can't check this 
paper unfortunately.

> Intermixed  with  these  trials  were  single-speaker  trials,  in 
> which  lead  and  lag  were  summed  and presented from one speaker.

> Listeners identified the speaker that was nearest to the perceived 
> source location.

so this is a simple "either/or" decision, not a continuum of possible phantom 
source locations. or put differently: not summing localisation, but something 
like a precendence effect. ok.

i could hypothesize that the initial phase of 2ms from one speaker only is 
enough information to localize the source, and that the lagging signal is not 
contributing any more cues. if so, that would not really contradict lee et al.

they go on to say

> With   single-speaker   stimuli,   localization
> improves   as   signal   duration   is   increased.

the single speaker case is not relevant to the discussion really (although it's 
a nice touch to add this to the experiment). it just means that if get more 
time to pinpoint a single source, localisation performance improves. very well.

but this could be read as implying "in two speaker stimuli, there was _no_ 
improvement of localisation as the signal duration is increased". 
which seems to suggest that indeed, the localisation process is over and done 
with during the initial 2ms of only a single speaker playing.

to test this, one would need to use a coherent signal in both speakers that 
starts at the same time, but one is delayed relative to the other. 
maybe by delaying a noise source and fading it in at the same time in both 
speakers. otherwise, we're really only looking at onset transients.

 > Furthermore,
> evidence of elevation compression was found with a dependence on 
> duration. With lead-lag pairs, localization dominance occurs in the 
> median plane, and becomes more robust with increased signal duration.

this general statement would contradict my interpretation above. is this paper 
available somewhere?

this one however leaves me scratching my head:

> These results suggest that accurate localization of a co-located 
> lead-lag pair is necessary for localization dominance to occur when 
> the lag is spatially separated from the lead.

i can't imagine what this means.



--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, 
please select unsubscribe.

Unsubscribe and Security information contact:   info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact:   f...@derby.ac.uk
All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Paul Hodges]

--On 08 December 2015 10:22 + Peter Lennox 
wrote:

> having problems with our internet access at the
> moment...

(It's because of a severe DDoS on Janet, the UK universities network.)

Paul

-- 
Paul Hodges

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Jörn Nettingsmeier]

On 12/07/2015 02:31 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:

But see: Localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane: Effect
of stimulus duration Roberto M. Dizon and Ruth Y. Litovsky Received
19 June 2003; accepted for publication 22 March 2004


interesting!

i wonder:


Lead-lag pairs of   noise
bursts   were   presented   from   locations   spaced   in   15°
increments   in   the   frontal, median-sagittal plane, with a 2-ms
delay in their onsets, for source durations of 1, 10, 25, and 50-ms.


does this mean they used the same noise source, where one channel was 
actually delayed, or the same noise source and one channel was just 
faded up later ("onset delay" could be read this way), or different 
noise sources altogether?


in order to investigate "phantom source" mechanisms, it should be the 
same noise source, delayed, which is likely what they did, but i can't 
check this paper unfortunately.



Intermixed  with  these  trials  were  single-speaker  trials,  in
which  lead  and  lag  were  summed  and presented from one speaker.



Listeners identified the speaker that was nearest to the perceived
source location.


so this is a simple "either/or" decision, not a continuum of possible 
phantom source locations. or put differently: not summing localisation, 
but something like a precendence effect. ok.


i could hypothesize that the initial phase of 2ms from one speaker only 
is enough information to localize the source, and that the lagging 
signal is not contributing any more cues. if so, that would not really 
contradict lee et al.


they go on to say


With   single-speaker   stimuli,   localization
improves   as   signal   duration   is   increased.


the single speaker case is not relevant to the discussion really 
(although it's a nice touch to add this to the experiment). it just 
means that if get more time to pinpoint a single source, localisation 
performance improves. very well.


but this could be read as implying "in two speaker stimuli, there was 
_no_ improvement of localisation as the signal duration is increased". 
which seems to suggest that indeed, the localisation process is over and 
done with during the initial 2ms of only a single speaker playing.


to test this, one would need to use a coherent signal in both speakers 
that starts at the same time, but one is delayed relative to the other. 
maybe by delaying a noise source and fading it in at the same time in 
both speakers. otherwise, we're really only looking at onset transients.


> Furthermore,

evidence of elevation compression was found with a dependence on
duration. With lead-lag pairs, localization dominance occurs in the
median plane, and becomes more robust with increased signal duration.


this general statement would contradict my interpretation above. is this 
paper available somewhere?


this one however leaves me scratching my head:


These results suggest that accurate localization of a co-located
lead-lag pair is necessary for localization dominance to occur when
the lag is spatially separated from the lead.


i can't imagine what this means.



--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Augustine Leudar]

Very interesting paper. I would love to read it properly - can you just
tell me - does precedence work as well vertically as it does horizontally ?

On 8 December 2015 at 13:30, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 12/08/2015 01:47 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:
>
>> Couldn't find the full paper again - but there's this one in full:
>> https://www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics/litovsky.pdf
>>
>> The abstract ends "...models that attribute the precedecence effect
>> entirely to processes that involve binaural differences are no longer
>> viable"
>>
>> The researchers are known as excellent contributors to the corpus of
>> psychophysics (Ruth Litovsky did the defninitive review of precedence
>> effects).
>>
>> So I would be interested to examine the differences in their findings and
>> Huddersfield's
>>
>
> thanks, very interesting! a quick glance makes me very curious, i'm
> looking forward to reading this tonight.
>
>
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



-- 
www.augustineleudar.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Peter Lennox]

no -percedence effects include a range of phenomena. But precedence in the 
median plane isn't quite as effective as in the azimuthal plane, according to 
Litovsky, Rakerd, Hartmann et al, but is still quite effective and so not 
negligible. So I'd like to understand what Lee (Huddersfield) was saying, to 
compare.

Certainly, in respect of producing phantom imagery in the vertical, I've found 
this to be quite effective (though often slightly more vague than in 
horizontal) which would explain why periphonic ambisonics works at all - and 
this seems to be a related issue to the precedence one
cheers
ppl
Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Fellow of the Higher Education Academy
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby

Tel: 01332 593155

From: Sursound [sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Augustine Leudar 
[augustineleu...@gmail.com]
Sent: 08 December 2015 19:57
To: Surround Sound discussion group
Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

Very interesting paper. I would love to read it properly - can you just
tell me - does precedence work as well vertically as it does horizontally ?

On 8 December 2015 at 13:30, Jörn Nettingsmeier <
netti...@stackingdwarves.net> wrote:

> On 12/08/2015 01:47 PM, Peter Lennox wrote:
>
>> Couldn't find the full paper again - but there's this one in full:
>> https://www.pa.msu.edu/acoustics/litovsky.pdf
>>
>> The abstract ends "...models that attribute the precedecence effect
>> entirely to processes that involve binaural differences are no longer
>> viable"
>>
>> The researchers are known as excellent contributors to the corpus of
>> psychophysics (Ruth Litovsky did the defninitive review of precedence
>> effects).
>>
>> So I would be interested to examine the differences in their findings and
>> Huddersfield's
>>
>
> thanks, very interesting! a quick glance makes me very curious, i'm
> looking forward to reading this tonight.
>
>
>
> --
> Jörn Nettingsmeier
> Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487
>
> Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio)
> Tonmeister VDT
>
> http://stackingdwarves.net
>
> ___
> Sursound mailing list
> Sursound@music.vt.edu
> https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here,
> edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>



--
www.augustineleudar.com
-- next part --
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: 
<https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151208/2be0465c/attachment.html>
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, 
please select unsubscribe.

Unsubscribe and Security information contact:   info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact:   f...@derby.ac.uk
All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

Re: [Sursound] OZO? vertical precedence

[Peter Lennox]

But see:
Localization dominance in the median-sagittal plane: Effect of stimulus duration
Roberto M. Dizon and Ruth Y. Litovsky
Received 19 June 2003; accepted for publication 22 March 2004

Localization  dominance  is  an  aspect  of  the  precedence  effect in  which  
the  leading  source
dominates the perceived location of a simulated echo lagging source. It is 
known to be robust in the horizontal/azimuthal dimension, where binaural cues 
dominate localization. However, little is
known about localization dominance in conditions that minimize binaural cues, 
and most models of
precedence   treat   the   phenomena   as   ''belonging''  to   the   binaural  
 system.   Here,   localization
dominance in the median-sagittal plane was studied where binaural cues are 
greatly reduced, and
monaural spectral/level cues are thought to be the primary cues used for 
localization. Lead-lag pairs
of   noise   bursts   were   presented   from   locations   spaced   in   15°   
increments   in   the   frontal,
median-sagittal plane, with a 2-ms delay in their onsets, for source durations 
of 1, 10, 25, and 50-ms.
Intermixed  with  these  trials  were  single-speaker  trials,  in  which  lead 
 and  lag  were  summed  and
presented from one speaker. Listeners identified the speaker that was nearest 
to the perceived source
location.  With   single-speaker   stimuli,   localization   improves   as   
signal   duration   is   increased.
Furthermore, evidence of elevation compression was found with a dependence on 
duration. With
lead-lag pairs, localization dominance occurs in the median plane, and becomes 
more robust with
increased signal duration. These results suggest that accurate localization of 
a co-located lead-lag
pair is necessary for localization dominance to occur when the lag is spatially 
separated from the
lead.   ©
2004 Acoustical Society of America.
@
DOI: 10.1121/1.1738687
#

Dr. Peter Lennox
Senior Lecturer in Perception
College of Arts
University of Derby, UK
e: p.len...@derby.ac.uk 
t: 01332 593155
https://derby.academia.edu/peterlennox 
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Peter_Lennox 


-Original Message-
From: Sursound [mailto:sursound-boun...@music.vt.edu] On Behalf Of Jörn 
Nettingsmeier
Sent: 06 December 2015 10:46
To: sursound@music.vt.edu
Subject: Re: [Sursound] OZO?

On 12/05/2015 05:26 PM, Stefan Schreiber wrote:

> I wrote: "8-channel ... hedgehog", which is/was already some form of 
> educated guess.
>
> See:
>
> http://www.hauptmikrofon.de/HW/TMT2012_3DNaturalRecording_Theile_Witte
> k_2012_11.pdf,
>
> pg. 19.
>
> This hedgehog layout really fits to the microphone openings of the Ozo 
> camera...

btw, since you're quoting this very interesting article, it has been partly 
superseded by recent research of lee at al. at huddersfield (see latest JAES), 
who found that there is _no_ vertical precendence effect and that interchannel 
time differences in vertically spaced loudspeakers do not contribute to 
localisation in any way. helmut is aware of this and has presented a much more 
compact 8-channel mic array at ICSA 2015 in graz, where the top and bottom mics 
are practically coincident.


--
Jörn Nettingsmeier
Lortzingstr. 11, 45128 Essen, Tel. +49 177 7937487

Meister für Veranstaltungstechnik (Bühne/Studio) Tonmeister VDT

http://stackingdwarves.net

___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.

The University of Derby has a published policy regarding email and reserves the 
right to monitor email traffic. If you believe this was sent to you in error, 
please select unsubscribe.

Unsubscribe and Security information contact:   info...@derby.ac.uk
For all FOI requests please contact:   f...@derby.ac.uk
All other Contacts are at http://www.derby.ac.uk/its/contacts/
___
Sursound mailing list
Sursound@music.vt.edu
https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit 
account or options, view archives and so on.