Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- Past midnight here. Got to go to bed. I would like to continue this discussion with you tommorrow. In the mean time I would like you to consider a couple of factors at work here. There are no commercial biodiesel vendors in the state of Alabama or Georgia that I am aware of. Also once something has been established its much more difficult to prohibit. I appreciate your comments much and have learned some things already. Bill C. - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Bill, > > While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable > loophole in the matter, there remain several points of > contention. > > For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial > biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which > the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars > back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't > believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing > scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the > state or municipality is road tax exempt? > > Consider the EPA's definition of "in commerce" as being on-road > use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as > hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial > grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not > and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor > trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. > > Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities > have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. > There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the > acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. > > Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer > why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same > Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere > toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which > brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at > some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. > > Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people > serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the > total time I > > have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that > they are > > exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My > question here > > is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel > if they > > produce it themselves and use it to operate their own > equipment? I make the > > assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be > no hazardous > > by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open > market are > > properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this > matter? > > > > Bill C. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel > for > > > their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may > apply. > > > And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing > > > their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for > the > > > IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of > road > > > taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - > > > presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the > > > arse on the matter. > > > > > > But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first > drop > > > for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy > access to > > > Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting > their > > > own studies or partnering with an entity that already has > legal > > > access to the data. > > > > > > That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And > pretty > > > much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily > move > > > into higher volumes of manufacture within their own > communities. > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils > have > > > put on paper. > > > > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules > > > apply. Would > > > > appreciate directions to access that info (if available). > One > > > loophole I > > > > hope to exploit may be that I am p
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Diesel & Lubricity
In a message dated 10/06/2002 19:37:38 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Typically, Number 1 diesel fuel (commonly referred to as kerosene), > which is used in colder climates, has poorer lubricity than > Number 2 diesel fuel. A 1998 review paper on fuel lubricity worldwide2 > showed that diesel fuel in the US and Canada is some of the poorest > lubricity fuel found in the entire world (see Figure 1 attached). > Of the 27 countries surveyed, only Canada, Switzerland, Poland and > Taiwan had poorer lubricity fuel than the US. With a mean fuel lubricity > of just under the recommended specification of an HFRR wear scar diameter > of 460 microns, fully 50% of the US fuel was found to be above that > recommended by equipment manufacturers. > This makes fascinating reading. FIrst of all, can anyone say why US diesel No1 and No2 lubricity is worse than so many other countries? Secondly, if the severe hydrotreating needed to take US diesel sulphur levels below 500ppm makes diesel so much more 'abrasive', then why aren't all the new high-performance diesel cars in Europe suffering engine failure (already 50ppm diesel road fuel is available in parts of Europe). Are the European supplies using an additive that they're not talking about? I'd love to know - if anyone can shed some light on this! Mark Wilkinson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Diesel & Lubricity
>In a message dated 10/06/2002 19:37:38 GMT Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > > Typically, Number 1 diesel fuel (commonly referred to as kerosene), > > which is used in colder climates, has poorer lubricity than > > Number 2 diesel fuel. A 1998 review paper on fuel lubricity worldwide2 > > showed that diesel fuel in the US and Canada is some of the poorest > > lubricity fuel found in the entire world (see Figure 1 attached). > > Of the 27 countries surveyed, only Canada, Switzerland, Poland and > > Taiwan had poorer lubricity fuel than the US. With a mean fuel lubricity > > of just under the recommended specification of an HFRR wear scar diameter > > of 460 microns, fully 50% of the US fuel was found to be above that > > recommended by equipment manufacturers. > > >This makes fascinating reading. FIrst of all, can anyone say why US diesel >No1 and No2 lubricity is worse than so many other countries? >Secondly, if the severe hydrotreating needed to take US diesel sulphur levels >below 500ppm makes diesel so much more 'abrasive', then why aren't all the >new high-performance diesel cars in Europe suffering engine failure (already >50ppm diesel road fuel is available in parts of Europe). Are the European >supplies using an additive that they're not talking about? > >I'd love to know - if anyone can shed some light on this! > >Mark Wilkinson From Terry de Winne (Biofuels for Sustainable Transport -- http://www.biofuels.fsnet.co.uk/): "Ultra low sulphur diesel fuel (ULSD) suffers from two things -- lack of the lubricity of the sulphur and also its ability to vulcanise any rubber components. Ergo, when Europe went over to ULSD in 1993/95, all fuel components were changed by all manufacturers to Viton or similar plastic. "Initially, supplies of ULSD were found to be very harsh on the injectors and caused many problems. Most oil companies added lubricity additives to compensate. "The French, being farmer-friendly, opted for biodiesel. The three main companies add 5% to all their ULSD. Shell International adds just 2%, but even this small amount is enough to compensate for the removal of the sulphur. It also oxygenates the fuel and brings the emission levels down marginally -- particularly carbon monoxide and nitrous oxide. "Hence, all Euro vehicles are compatible with biodiesel, whether or not the manufacturers acknowledge it." Anyway, with US fuel, I don't think it's just the sulphur content, which isn't particularly low, but still lubricity is low. Maybe it's just crap fuel. "According to Mr. Paul Henderson, Quality Management Systems Manager for Stanadyne Automotive Corp. (the leading independent US manufacturer of diesel fuel injection equipment) in comments provided to the Chairman of the Kansas House Environment Committee March 8, 2000: 'There have been numerous examples from the field where lack of lubricity in the fuel has caused premature equipment breakdowns and in some cases, catastrophic failures. This problem will be more dramatic as EPA moves to further reduce the sulfur levels in petrodiesel fuel.'" Stanadyne Automotive has stated: "É.we have tested biodiesel at Stanadyne and results indicate that the inclusion of 2% biodiesel into any conventional diesel fuel will be sufficient to address the lubricity concerns that we have with these existing diesel fuels. From our standpoint, inclusion of biodiesel is desirable for two reasons. First it would eliminate the inherent variability associated with the use of other additives and whether sufficient additive was used to make the fuel fully lubricious. Second, we consider biodiesel a fuel or fuel component-not an additiveÉThus if more biodiesel is added than required to increase lubricity, there will not be the adverse consequences that might be seen if other lubricity additives are dosed at too high a rate." Best wishes Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol Diesel & Lubricity
That just about wraps it up then. Thanks very much Keith! Mark Wilkinson Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
OTOH, I would hope that this would in no way discourage you and your group from trying. While I'm fully convinced that the NBDB and the EPA are a disgusting bunch of crooks (Audubon's connection notwithstanding, and I'm a long time Audubon member), that never means that people should give up trying to do what seems logical and right. And if it fails, then by all means publish that fact far and wide -- the more light that is shed on situations such as this, the greater chance of the problem being rectified. Perhaps it would even go so far as having Audubon publically denounce the EPA and the NBDB. On Tue, Jun 11, 2002 at 12:27:27AM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: > Bill, > > While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable > loophole in the matter, there remain several points of > contention. > > For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial > biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which > the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars > back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't > believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing > scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the > state or municipality is road tax exempt? > > Consider the EPA's definition of "in commerce" as being on-road > use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as > hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial > grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not > and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor > trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. > > Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities > have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. > There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the > acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. > > Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer > why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same > Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere > toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which > brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at > some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. > > Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people > serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the > total time I > > have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that > they are > > exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My > question here > > is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel > if they > > produce it themselves and use it to operate their own > equipment? I make the > > assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be > no hazardous > > by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open > market are > > properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this > matter? > > > > Bill C. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel > for > > > their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may > apply. > > > And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing > > > their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for > the > > > IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of > road > > > taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - > > > presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the > > > arse on the matter. > > > > > > But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first > drop > > > for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy > access to > > > Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting > their > > > own studies or partnering with an entity that already has > legal > > > access to the data. > > > > > > That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And > pretty > > > much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily > move > > > into higher volumes of manufacture within their own > communities. > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils > have > > > put on paper. > > > > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules > > > apply. Would > > > > appreciate directions to access that info (if a
Re: [biofuel] Help! Any parts worth scavenging?
Well, there already are numerous companies that import used Japanese engines into the US, supposedly because their is a law in Japan that engines have to be traded out after so many miles. I don't know if it would be worth it for the other parts. If you've spent much time in junkyards, you'll notice that other than engines, tranny's, and wheels, the yard owners don't find it pays to strip out the other stuff and instead wait for someone who wants that specific part to come, and then the buyer does the work. Usually, anyway -- I've seen some exception for places that do a mail order business in some "cult" cars, like VW buses and bugs. I can't think offhand of any Japanese cars that fit the "cult car" definition, but there are people who go to Europe and buy VW buses and Unimogs and haul them back to the US. And I know of someone who goes around the US and buys up Opel GTs and strips them and ships the parts to Europe. Speaking of which -- I lusted for an Opel GT for many years, finally bought one, started working on it, and turned right around and sold it to the first sucker that came along. Ugggh, what a piece of crap. So exquisitly beautiful on the outside, so totally crude underneath. On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 11:05:52AM +1000, Gobert wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Grahams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > From a consignment store perspective, this looks like a great new money > > making venture... importing Japan's used cars! Hmm how much to ship one > or > > those things? Also seriously though, what about other parts that may > need > > to be replaced- doors, glass, tires etc. Here of course we use used parts > > for almost everything. > > Caroline > > > Caroline I don't know about where you come from but in Australia there is a > thriving industry based on low mileage imported Japanese vehicles and > vehicle parts. Dropped my Hilux L diesel engine off for reconditioning at > one such place in Cairns this morning. > Shrink wrapped engines,gearboxes and components, all of oriental parentage, > were on display. They also sell what they call half cuts. Literaly the front > half of cars. > Had dreams at one stage of slotting a Nissan FJ20 turbo into the front of a > peugeot 504 I was restoring. Some might say sacrilidge but I think it would > be OK as the FJ20 is DOHC and 4 valve per cylinder a configuration that > Peugeot pioneered nearly a century ago. > > Regards, Paul Gobert. > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 5/06/02 > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
As Todd says, thinking on producing a small qty of BD free of taxes for our own use (also for cooperatives or comunities), we built a small pressurized reactor 200 L/batch. No washing needed. Carlos - Original Message - From: Appal Energy To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:04 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method Bill, There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the arse on the matter. But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal access to the data. That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have put on paper. > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules apply. Would > appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One loophole I > hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine their own > fuel, not produce commercially. > > Bill C. > > .- Original Message - > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board > > member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to make a > > loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order to > > accomodate micro-regional manufacture. > > > > Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But that > > certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. And > > it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they > > wanted to, as the general rule in this country is "equal > > protection under the law." > > > > Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and > > persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied equally > > to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the proverbial > > pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. > > > > One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be formulating a > > backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > - Original Message - > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > Ken & others- First I would like to thank all of you for your > > help & your > > > prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to describe > > what I have > > > in mind. > > > > > > One of the missions we would like to undertake is to > > demonstrate the > > > effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community and > > government. > > > The quality of my fuel is important. While energy (electricity) > > is cheap > > > here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar as a > > heat source > > > when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a pcv > > pipe grid using > > > the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. Not > > along term > > > solution but will do for now. > > > > > > After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to > > convince the City of > > > Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO produced > > locally (not > > > currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I know > > other cities > > > in USA are producing biodiesel but none as small as us > > (15,000). Most > > > biodiesel info I have seen is geared either to large capacity > > production or > > > individual and farm production. Once we have coverted our own > > city, we will > > > try to convince other small communties in Alabama and > > eventually the South > > > East to do the same. > > > > > > Somebody recently made referrence to the EPA and their > > discouragement of > > > small biodiesel prodution in an e-mail on this list. I am > > unfamiliar with > > > this but don't doubt i
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Bill and Todd; Have you considered selling BioDiesel as a fuel additive only. Does this not exempt you from many of the troubling issues? >Bill, > >While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonable >loophole in the matter, there remain several points of >contention. > >For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial >biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which >the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars >back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't >believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing >scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the >state or municipality is road tax exempt? > >Consider the EPA's definition of "in commerce" as being on-road >use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as >hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial >grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not >and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor >trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. > >Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities >have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. >There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the >acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. > >Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer >why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same >Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere >toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which >brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at >some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. > >Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people >serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. > >Todd Swearingen > >- Original Message - >From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the >total time I > > have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that >they are > > exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My >question here > > is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel >if they > > produce it themselves and use it to operate their own >equipment? I make the > > assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be >no hazardous > > by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open >market are > > properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this >matter? > > > > Bill C. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel >for > > > their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may >apply. > > > And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing > > > their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for >the > > > IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of >road > > > taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - > > > presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the > > > arse on the matter. > > > > > > But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first >drop > > > for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy >access to > > > Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting >their > > > own studies or partnering with an entity that already has >legal > > > access to the data. > > > > > > That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And >pretty > > > much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily >move > > > into higher volumes of manufacture within their own >communities. > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils >have > > > put on paper. > > > > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules > > > apply. Would > > > > appreciate directions to access that info (if available). >One > > > loophole I > > > > hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities >refine > > > their own > > > > fuel, not produce commercially. > > > > > > > > Bill C. > > > > > > > > .- Original Message - > > > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > > To: > > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM > > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > > > > That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB >board > > > > > member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to > > > make a > > > > > loophole in the matr
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
>As Todd says, thinking on producing a small qty of BD free of taxes >for our own use (also for cooperatives or comunities), we built a >small pressurized reactor 200 L/batch. No washing needed. > >Carlos What would be the advantage over a batch-type processor anyone can make themselves for next to nothing? Why do you say no washing is needed? Washing is always needed. Am I right in assuming this processor is for virgin oil only, not WVO? If so, you should say so. And can it handle the acid-base process? Best Keith Addison Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Why not use a meat grinder? Not the home model, next size up or so, something that a local butchery would use to make mince meat. If there are still such things as local butcheries. that is. You might be able to adapt it without too much hassle. Maybe you could get one second-hand. There are some diagrams here of how a screw press works, quite clear, should help: http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/publications/efdcpos_html/index.html EQUIPMENT FOR DECENTRALISED COLD PRESSING OF OIL SEEDS 1st Edition Also as a PDF, 917k http://www.folkecenter.dk/plant-oil/efdcpos_ef.pdf 64-page report Best Keith >Yeah! Let's see some pictures of that thing > >Jesse Parris | studio53 | graphics / web design | stamford, ct | >203.324.4371 >www.jesseparris.com/Portfolio_Jesse_Parris/ >- Original Message - >From: "Martin Klingensmith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Sunday, June 09, 2002 11:56 AM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information > > > > How exactly does it work? Does it just have grinding/pressing wheels that > > squeeze the hell out of the seed/whatever? > > > > --- "Neoteric Biofuels Inc." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > The Komet line has one that'll give you the exercise you seek. > > > > > > Hand operated. Does about 10 lbs. Of seed per hour. Cost is about $1700 >US > > > delivered to you. (quality never comes cheap). You can press oil out of >darn > > > near anything with it - some of them are pretty high value oils > > > (nutraceutical/pharmaceutical). You could run that 1 litre car from VW >for a > > > week, for a little bit of a workout on the press. > > > > > > = > > -Martin Klingensmith > > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > http://devzero.ath.cx/ > > http://www.nnytech.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Keith writes: >Why not use a meat grinder? Not the home model, next size up or so, >something that a local butchery would use to make mince meat. If >there are still such things as local butcheries. that is. You might >be able to adapt it without too much hassle. I think the problem is that a meat grinder, like a nut grinder, is designed to chop up everything and push it out all together. There are traditional systems used in many places that are similar, but the oily mix after grinding is then wrapped up (in cloth, basket mat'l, etc) and pressed under rocks or with a car jack to separate the oil. Definitely a batch process that way. A continuous oil press needs two very separate outlets for oil and cake. Not saying the grinders couldn't be modified, but that's the nature of the modification you'd have to do. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Is that no washing needed based upon manufacturer's suggestion? Or no washing needed in order to meet ASTM or EU standard? Pardon the skepticism, but it sounds a bit like an "over unity" device. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Brawner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:35 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > As Todd says, thinking on producing a small qty of BD free of taxes for our own use (also for cooperatives or comunities), we built a small pressurized reactor 200 L/batch. No washing needed. > > Carlos > - Original Message - > From: Appal Energy > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 12:04 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > Bill, > > There is nothing to stop anyone from producing their own fuel for > their own off-road use, save for local ordinances that may apply. > And there may not be anything stopping anyone from producing > their own fuel for their own personal on road use, save for the > IRS and state taxation departments relative to collection of road > taxes and the EPA relative to registration of the fuel - > presuming they made the effort to be intentional pains in the > arse on the matter. > > But the moment a commercial manufacturer produces the first drop > for use in commerce (road legal fuel), they have to buy access to > Health Affects data, either by paying NBB fees, conducting their > own studies or partnering with an entity that already has legal > access to the data. > > That's pretty much the end of the story at the moment. And pretty > much what scotches it for many people who would ordinarily move > into higher volumes of manufacture within their own communities. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:50 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- I don't know exactly what EPA and soybean councils have > put on paper. > > I would be interested in seeing what legislation or rules > apply. Would > > appreciate directions to access that info (if available). One > loophole I > > hope to exploit may be that I am proposing that entities refine > their own > > fuel, not produce commercially. > > > > Bill C. > > > > .- Original Message - > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:24 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > That's rather a hopeful thought...that an Audobon/NBB board > > > member could persuade the EPA and the soybean councils to > make a > > > loophole in the matrimonial papers they formulated in order > to > > > accomodate micro-regional manufacture. > > > > > > Don't get me wrong. It would be wonderful if they would. But > that > > > certainly hasn't been the stance of either up to this point. > And > > > it's rather difficult to imagine that they could even if they > > > wanted to, as the general rule in this country is "equal > > > protection under the law." > > > > > > Which also means equal enforcement, prosecution and > > > persecution meaning that the rules are to be applied > equally > > > to everyone and that exceptions are perceived as the > proverbial > > > pox - no matter how beneficial they prove. > > > > > > One can always hope. But if I were you, I would be > formulating a > > > backup plan well before I put all my eggs in that basket. > > > > > > Todd Swearingen > > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 9:09 PM > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > > > > > > > Ken & others- First I would like to thank all of you for > your > > > help & your > > > > prompt replies. I thought it might be useful for me to > describe > > > what I have > > > > in mind. > > > > > > > > One of the missions we would like to undertake is to > > > demonstrate the > > > > effectiveness of biodiesel as a fuel to the local community > and > > > government. > > > > The quality of my fuel is important. While energy > (electricity) > > > is cheap > > > > here, cost is very important, hence my desire to use solar > as a > > > heat source > > > > when practical. I believe that WVO can be preheated in a > pcv > > > pipe grid using > > > > the sun. When painted black it is less suseptible to UV. > Not > > > along term > > > > solution but will do for now. > > > > > > > > After we are comfortable with our process, we intend to > > > convince the City of > > > > Eufaula to have the Recycling Dept. collect all WVO > produced > > > locally (not > > > > currently doing this) and produce their own clean fuel. I > know >
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
Hi Ken >Keith writes: > > >Why not use a meat grinder? Not the home model, next size up or so, > >something that a local butchery would use to make mince meat. If > >there are still such things as local butcheries. that is. You might > >be able to adapt it without too much hassle. > >I think the problem is that a meat grinder, like a nut grinder, is >designed to chop up everything and push it out all together. There >are traditional systems used in many places that are similar, but the >oily mix after grinding is then wrapped up (in cloth, basket mat'l, etc) >and pressed under rocks or with a car jack to separate the oil. They have some very cunning ways of doing that. >Definitely a batch process that way. A continuous oil press needs >two very separate outlets for oil and cake. Not saying the grinders >couldn't be modified, but that's the nature of the modification you'd >have to do. Yes, I agree. I was thinking the cake could come out the end, like the mince, and holes or slots or a screen or something or other could be provided in the body for the oil. It's not a regular screw, the pitch(?) shortens as it gets to the end to build up the pressure, so something like that might work. It would need some experimenting, by a cleverer person than me. Regards Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Equipment Information
I've got a wheatgrass juicer that would probably work better than a meat grinder. Mines a stainless steel manually cranked, about $80 or so. And it's got a much longer tapered screw than meat grinders -- but I'd always thought you needed much more pressure than that? But it's designed so the juice comes out a hole in the side and the bulk comes out the end. It has a bolt in the end that blocks the stuff, after it builds up you have to open that a bit to allow it to escape -- whereas a meat grinder has a large end opening with plates with various sized holes according to the grind desired, and normally you have to run it thru the big holes first, then the little ones, so maybe you could modify that end plate. Used to grind up a lot of moose and deer with ours, once upon a time. Northern pike too, grind 'em up, bones and all, makes great fish cakes or soup. But anyway, I think the wheatgrass juicer is more what you'd want, if the pressure is sufficient. Somehow I thought you'd need much, much more. On Wed, Jun 12, 2002 at 02:17:51AM +0900, Keith Addison wrote: > Hi Ken > > >Keith writes: > > > > >Why not use a meat grinder? Not the home model, next size up or so, > > >something that a local butchery would use to make mince meat. If > > >there are still such things as local butcheries. that is. You might > > >be able to adapt it without too much hassle. > > > >I think the problem is that a meat grinder, like a nut grinder, is > >designed to chop up everything and push it out all together. There > >are traditional systems used in many places that are similar, but the > >oily mix after grinding is then wrapped up (in cloth, basket mat'l, etc) > >and pressed under rocks or with a car jack to separate the oil. > > They have some very cunning ways of doing that. > > >Definitely a batch process that way. A continuous oil press needs > >two very separate outlets for oil and cake. Not saying the grinders > >couldn't be modified, but that's the nature of the modification you'd > >have to do. > > Yes, I agree. I was thinking the cake could come out the end, like > the mince, and holes or slots or a screen or something or other could > be provided in the body for the oil. It's not a regular screw, the > pitch(?) shortens as it gets to the end to build up the pressure, so > something like that might work. It would need some experimenting, by > a cleverer person than me. > > Regards > > Keith > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > -- Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] FW: Which SVO conversion kit should I buy?
FYI, from over at the Maui board...my post is the last one at the end. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca > Here's a web page on Biodiesel Discussion( > http://www.mauigreenenergy.org/discussionsponsors > .htm ) that you may be interested in reading: > > http://biodiesel.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tp > c&s=465094322&f=166094322&m=8503034935 > > Here are the messages I thought you'd be > interested in: > > > > Subject: Which SVO conversion kit should I buy? > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > Which conversion kit should I buy? > > > Subject: Choosing a Kit > Author: greaselightning > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > If you want to spend a little more get the Elsbit > kit it has a computer that turns on and off the > switches for you. The tank looks like it was put > there by the factory price is twice the > greasecar. I hear greasecar is v slow > in shipping(3 months min). Elsbit is german and > that can not be easy either. Greasel seems like a > good guy but his kit does not look as good as > greasecar but it is 1/3 the cost. Good Luck > Rob > > > Subject: I'm Choosing Greasel > Author: Greg from PA > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > I'm going with Greasel, since it supplies a fuel > tank for what you need. I used an old plastic ice > chest, but he sells 6 gal and 12 gal plastic > marine fuel tanks with heat exchangers in them. > They come with fuel gauges and he does a good job > of customer service, not that any any of the > others don't. If you like to spend your time > finding parts, make your own system. I was > quoted $800 for a locally made steel fuel tank. I > chose an ice chest and copper tubing for $45. The > guy in New England has steel ones. I prefer > having a small fuel tank and filling it every 300 > miles with my 5 gal jug of oil that can be in my > trunk next to my fuel tank. > > Greg > > > Subject: Greasel rocks! > Author: ppillard > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > Charlie's kit is top-notch. It simple, clean, > and foolproof. His customer service is supreme, > and he will bend over backwards to help you out. > I've been VERY impressed with every interaction > I've had with him so far. > > _ > Pillard > "There can be only one" > > > Subject: Thanks for your advice... > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 20 May 2002 > Message: > But what is the average "down-time" for the > greasel kit before completely turning the car > off? Also, there seems to be, like any competing > businesses, many conflicts of opinions in both > the design and principles of using SVO between > Neoteric and Greaselwhat's a beginner to do? > :confused: > > > Subject: Downtime should be the same for all the > brands out there... > Author: ppillard > Date Posted: 20 May 2002 > Message: > 'Downtime' as you call it, is dependant on the > vehicles fuel consumption rate, not anything the > conversion kits have to do with. Regardless of > which kit you buy, when you switch over to diesel > before you kill the car, you will have to run the > engine till the injection pump is clear of > veggie. On my lil' economy car, I have to run 8 > solid minutes before I feel good about shutting > down, but I can flip the switch no more than a > minute after startup. The less fuel efficient, > full size trucks out there can likely shut off > the grease around 4-5 minutes before shutting the > engine down. > > Hope that helps! > > _ > Pillard > "There can be only one" > > > Subject: Not so > Author: Fatmobile > Date Posted: 21 May 2002 > Message: > This only applies to cars that work like a VW. > Those with no external fuel pump (the only pumps > are in the injector pump and it pulls the fuel > toward it). You didn't say what kind of car you > are converting. > I don't know how Neoteric is doing things. > The time it takes to flush your pump is very much > effected by the system you use. > The one solenoid, return to the front of the > pump setup takes the longest to flush. > As the fresh diesel is on it way to flush the > pump it is contaminated by the vegetable oil you > are trying to get out of the pump. You don't > flush it out of the pump at all. You simply send > it back into the pump again. That's not the only > problem with this system but without a fuel temp > guage you probably won't know about the other one > till you start idleing funny. > With other systems you can flush in one minute. > The loop system does allow for the quickest > starts. When the weather is good you can start in > vegy mode. If you have your vacuum guage hooked > up (ppillard) you'll see no extreme vacuum. (none > o
Re: [biofuel] Help! Any parts worth scavenging?
- Original Message - From: "Grahams" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > From a consignment store perspective, this looks like a great new money > making venture... importing Japan's used cars! Hmm how much to ship one or > those things? Also seriously though, what about other parts that may need > to be replaced- doors, glass, tires etc. Here of course we use used parts > for almost everything. > Caroline > Caroline I don't know about where you come from but in Australia there is a thriving industry based on low mileage imported Japanese vehicles and vehicle parts. Dropped my Hilux L diesel engine off for reconditioning at one such place in Cairns this morning. Shrink wrapped engines,gearboxes and components, all of oriental parentage, were on display. They also sell what they call half cuts. Literaly the front half of cars. Had dreams at one stage of slotting a Nissan FJ20 turbo into the front of a peugeot 504 I was restoring. Some might say sacrilidge but I think it would be OK as the FJ20 is DOHC and 4 valve per cylinder a configuration that Peugeot pioneered nearly a century ago. Regards, Paul Gobert. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.370 / Virus Database: 205 - Release Date: 5/06/02 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] A question about moonshine.
I prefer 100 proof, but my vehicles like 160 + ;-) Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "al" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, May 23, 2002 6:43 AM Subject: [biofuel] A question about moonshine. > Hi I have produced moonshine [()0O] > I know that its impossible to 99% alcohole wil a still > My question being [at the most you can get anout 94% and > not a great deal of that in distilling a batch] > what percentage HAS the alcohole to be and what happens > when you can reach that purity> > thanks al. > Message--- > > From: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Thursday, May 23, 2002 11:17:57 > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] truck question > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last night and also did some research today. As to your first point, let me stress that this production is by the municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the limits of the municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I talked with people from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they knew of no reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the regional person with the EPA. I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but this is what I think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is to tax vehicles which could normally be expected to make regular use of state and federal roads. I certainly could be wrong about that, but again, none of the agencies I spoke with seemed to think it was a problem. The bit of reading I did on the regulations focused on the sale and distribution of fuel with no mention of production for in house use. Your third point is well made, however, I know something about these kinds of laws. They are in place to prevent government agencies from competeing with private businesses in the marketplace. There is no law that I am aware of that prohibits these agencies from producing any type of goods or services for their own consumption. I don't pretend that local businesses who have enjoyed the business that they receive from the city will be glad. But, the goverment should do what is best for the public interest. Finally, the only thing I can say to the commercial biodiesel producer is that there is no profit involved. Taxes paid by the government to the government is trading paper and thus inefficient. Also those taxes will come out of the public coffers. I am pretty sure that at least the public will support this idea. Much easier to get public support in a small community. I understand your frustration with lawyers and bureaucrats getting their 2 cents in (or out), but I can't let that deter me in this attempt. Maybe someone in the right place will do the right thing. Bill C. - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Bill, > > While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonableo > loophole in the matter, there remain several points of > contention. > > For a moment consider that I might be a very bitter commercial > biodiesel manufacturer, extremely angry at the manner in which > the NBB/soy councils are attempting to get their checkoff dollars > back after they've already spent them once. Surely you don't > believe that someone such as this would let a manufacturing > scenario such as you present go unchallenged, simply because the > state or municipality is road tax exempt? > > Consider the EPA's definition of "in commerce" as being on-road > use. Not brief use of agriculturally exempt dyed fuel, such as > hauling a tractor to a harvest site, but non-dyed commercial > grade fuel. It's the exact same fuel whether it's taxed or not > and whether it's in a state DOT truck, a privately owned tractor > trailer or a Volkswagen Golf. > > Also consider for a moment from where these tax exempt entities > have been previously accessing their fuel - outside vendors. > There are arenas full of ordinances and statutes governing the > acquisition of supplies and competing with commercial interests. > > Now try and explain to the miffed commercial biodiesel producer > why the state or municipality should be exempt from the same > Health Affects data requirements that he or she must adhere > toSame roads. Same air. Same quality of emissions. Which > brings a soul directly to the off-road exemption, which will at > some point cease to exist due to the very same arguement. > > Too many lawyers, too many bureaucrats and too many people > serving self-interests inevitably screw up anything worthwhile. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:45 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- Early on in my ivestigation of biodiesel (relative to the > total time I > > have spent) I checked with the municipality here and found that > they are > > exempt from state and federal fuel taxes. Same for schools. My > question here > > is if a municipality would be required to register thier fuel > if they > > produce it themselves and use it to operate their own > equipment? I make the > > assumption that apart from the chemical inputs, there will be > no hazardous > > by-products. If chemicals which may be obtained on the open > market are > > properly handled, what other concern does the EPA have in this > matter? > > > > Bill C. > > - Original Message - > > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 10:04 PM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > >
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Bill, Okay. So the municipality registers their home brew with the EPA. What are they going to register it as? Are government agencies somehow exempt from Tier I and or Tier II Health Affects studies? If not, are they going to conduct them out of pocket? If they are exempt it would come as an eye opener. Imagine a tractor trailer running on fuel that has to meet EPA Health Affects requirements, side by side on the interstate with a city or state DOT truck whose fuel doesen't have to meet any Health Affects requirements. That should seem pretty fishy to just about anyone and bit unrealistic. So then what? Does the municipality or state shell out the membership and production fees to the NBB in order to gain access to the Health Affects data? Or does the NBB wave membership and production fees for city, state and federal governments? Which brings to question, "What is the feedstock being used by the government producer?" If it's not soybean oil, which it almost certainly wouldn't be, you're not going to find too many of the NBB soy oriented voting members too terribly pleased about the idea of waving fees. Who knows. Perhaps this exemption has already been constructed by those who originally worked with the EPA on the Health Affects access issue. Or maybe not. Then there's the matter of the government producer mandatorily meeting ASTM spec. Does a government agency get to put less than ASTM spec fuel in fuel tanks which the public owns? I doubt it. And then what does the government do if they find out that they have too much fuel for their own use as a result of too much feedstock being available? Do they only service select restaurants? There goes a "bias" or "favoritism" charge before city council before you can blink. And what of the waste hauler who now is losing clientele to the government? There's a "competion" complaint before the first drop is poured. Seems like there are several months of legal wrangling that you're going to have to go through before you get one step beyond concept and into the construction phase. In the interim? Start prototyping an ASTM spec process that is easily sizeable to any given need. Hopefully that will be ready somewhere along the same time frame that all the attornies get done playing with the matter. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last night and also > did some research today. > > As to your first point, let me stress that this production is by the > municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the limits of the > municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I talked with people > from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they knew of no > reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the regional person > with the EPA. > > I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but this is what I > think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is to tax > vehicles which could normally be expected to make regular use of state and > federal roads. I certainly could be wrong about that, but again, none of the > agencies I spoke with seemed to think it was a problem. The bit of reading I > did on the regulations focused on the sale and distribution of fuel with no > mention of production for in house use. > > Your third point is well made, however, I know something about these kinds > of laws. They are in place to prevent government agencies from competeing > with private businesses in the marketplace. There is no law that I am aware > of that prohibits these agencies from producing any type of goods or > services for their own consumption. I don't pretend that local businesses > who have enjoyed the business that they receive from the city will be glad. > But, the goverment should do what is best for the public interest. > > Finally, the only thing I can say to the commercial biodiesel producer is > that there is no profit involved. Taxes paid by the government to the > government is trading paper and thus inefficient. Also those taxes will come > out of the public coffers. I am pretty sure that at least the public will > support this idea. Much easier to get public support in a small community. > > I understand your frustration with lawyers and bureaucrats getting their 2 > cents in (or out), but I can't let that deter me in this attempt. Maybe > someone in the right place will do the right thing. > > Bill C. > > > > > - Original Message - > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, June 10, 2002 11:27 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Bill, > > > > While you have hit upon what might appear to be a reasonableo > > loophole in the matter, there remain several points of > > contention. > > > > For a moment consider that I might be a ver
Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method
Todd- Certainly the fuel will have to meet ASTM standards. This will require some fine tuning of the process but I believe that is achievable. Others in this group may have some input on that matter. I still question whether fuel produced not for sale will be required to be registered with the EPA. I am unfamiliar with Tier I & Tier II Health Affects studies. If this is the same as Material Safety Data Sheets I think that again is an issue concerning the sale of product. Of course we will have to make sure that the product is safe. Certainly it will be safer than petrodiesel. In my opinion, for what it is worth, this whole issue rests on the lynchpin of sales of product. Since we will be using WVO, I doubt that over supply will ever be an issue here. Perhaps in other places it will be. In my local research, the amount of WVO available from restaurants is approximately 70% of the amount of diesel being consumed by city government. Could change, I don't think so. As for the waste hauler, you may have a point. That could perhaps be construed as a competitive intrusion into the marketplace by a government entity. On the other hand, this is a waste recycling issue and there are ample illustrations of goverment competing in this area. Garbage collection is one that comes to mind. In Eufaula, there is municipal and private company collection. I know this to be true in many areas. Thanks for staying with me on this. You ask hard questions (the best kind) and I will need to cover my bases on this. Much still to find out. Bill C. - Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:39 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > Bill, > > Okay. So the municipality registers their home brew with the EPA. > What are they going to register it as? Are government agencies > somehow exempt from Tier I and or Tier II Health Affects studies? > If not, are they going to conduct them out of pocket? If they are > exempt it would come as an eye opener. > > Imagine a tractor trailer running on fuel that has to meet EPA > Health Affects requirements, side by side on the interstate with > a city or state DOT truck whose fuel doesen't have to meet any > Health Affects requirements. That should seem pretty fishy to > just about anyone and bit unrealistic. > > So then what? Does the municipality or state shell out the > membership and production fees to the NBB in order to gain access > to the Health Affects data? Or does the NBB wave membership and > production fees for city, state and federal governments? > > Which brings to question, "What is the feedstock being used by > the government producer?" If it's not soybean oil, which it > almost certainly wouldn't be, you're not going to find too many > of the NBB soy oriented voting members too terribly pleased about > the idea of waving fees. > > Who knows. Perhaps this exemption has already been constructed by > those who originally worked with the EPA on the Health Affects > access issue. Or maybe not. > > Then there's the matter of the government producer mandatorily > meeting ASTM spec. Does a government agency get to put less than > ASTM spec fuel in fuel tanks which the public owns? I doubt it. > > And then what does the government do if they find out that they > have too much fuel for their own use as a result of too much > feedstock being available? Do they only service select > restaurants? There goes a "bias" or "favoritism" charge before > city council before you can blink. > > And what of the waste hauler who now is losing clientele to the > government? There's a "competion" complaint before the first drop > is poured. > > Seems like there are several months of legal wrangling that > you're going to have to go through before you get one step beyond > concept and into the construction phase. In the interim? Start > prototyping an ASTM spec process that is easily sizeable to any > given need. Hopefully that will be ready somewhere along the same > time frame that all the attornies get done playing with the > matter. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: William Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 10:43 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] First stage foolproof method > > > > Todd- I have considered your points of contention since last > night and also > > did some research today. > > > > As to your first point, let me stress that this production is > by the > > municipality strictly for use by the municipality within the > limits of the > > municipality. No sale of product would ever transpire. I > talked with people > > from USDOT, Alabama DOT and Alabama DOR. All said that they > knew of no > > reason why we could not do this. I was unable to reach the > regional person > > with the EPA. > > > > I don't quite understand your second point (thick headed) but > this is what I > > think may apply. I believe that the intent of that language is > to tax > > vehi
[biofuels-biz] Re: Chem Supplies
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Eric Ruttan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I am unable to secure NaOH or H2SO4 for a test batch of BD. I am to demo > this for some highschoolers on monday and i have procrastanated, aparantly > too long. > > It seems Since 911 no more shipping to people. Love living in the land of > the free. > > I live in the michigan Detroit area. If anyone can help, Please let me > know? > > Eric I can't help you with your supply problem, but perhaps you can use the time to make a Civics lesson about Freedom vs. Bureaucracy? Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Will You Find True Love? Will You Meet the One? Free Love Reading by phone! http://us.click.yahoo.com/Deo18C/zDLEAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] FW: Which SVO conversion kit should I buy?
FYI, from over at the Maui board...my post is the last one at the end. Edward Beggs, BES, MSc http://www.biofuels.ca > Here's a web page on Biodiesel Discussion( > http://www.mauigreenenergy.org/discussionsponsors > .htm ) that you may be interested in reading: > > http://biodiesel.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tp > c&s=465094322&f=166094322&m=8503034935 > > Here are the messages I thought you'd be > interested in: > > > > Subject: Which SVO conversion kit should I buy? > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > Which conversion kit should I buy? > > > Subject: Choosing a Kit > Author: greaselightning > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > If you want to spend a little more get the Elsbit > kit it has a computer that turns on and off the > switches for you. The tank looks like it was put > there by the factory price is twice the > greasecar. I hear greasecar is v slow > in shipping(3 months min). Elsbit is german and > that can not be easy either. Greasel seems like a > good guy but his kit does not look as good as > greasecar but it is 1/3 the cost. Good Luck > Rob > > > Subject: I'm Choosing Greasel > Author: Greg from PA > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > I'm going with Greasel, since it supplies a fuel > tank for what you need. I used an old plastic ice > chest, but he sells 6 gal and 12 gal plastic > marine fuel tanks with heat exchangers in them. > They come with fuel gauges and he does a good job > of customer service, not that any any of the > others don't. If you like to spend your time > finding parts, make your own system. I was > quoted $800 for a locally made steel fuel tank. I > chose an ice chest and copper tubing for $45. The > guy in New England has steel ones. I prefer > having a small fuel tank and filling it every 300 > miles with my 5 gal jug of oil that can be in my > trunk next to my fuel tank. > > Greg > > > Subject: Greasel rocks! > Author: ppillard > Date Posted: 19 May 2002 > Message: > Charlie's kit is top-notch. It simple, clean, > and foolproof. His customer service is supreme, > and he will bend over backwards to help you out. > I've been VERY impressed with every interaction > I've had with him so far. > > _ > Pillard > "There can be only one" > > > Subject: Thanks for your advice... > Author: sickshaman > Date Posted: 20 May 2002 > Message: > But what is the average "down-time" for the > greasel kit before completely turning the car > off? Also, there seems to be, like any competing > businesses, many conflicts of opinions in both > the design and principles of using SVO between > Neoteric and Greaselwhat's a beginner to do? > :confused: > > > Subject: Downtime should be the same for all the > brands out there... > Author: ppillard > Date Posted: 20 May 2002 > Message: > 'Downtime' as you call it, is dependant on the > vehicles fuel consumption rate, not anything the > conversion kits have to do with. Regardless of > which kit you buy, when you switch over to diesel > before you kill the car, you will have to run the > engine till the injection pump is clear of > veggie. On my lil' economy car, I have to run 8 > solid minutes before I feel good about shutting > down, but I can flip the switch no more than a > minute after startup. The less fuel efficient, > full size trucks out there can likely shut off > the grease around 4-5 minutes before shutting the > engine down. > > Hope that helps! > > _ > Pillard > "There can be only one" > > > Subject: Not so > Author: Fatmobile > Date Posted: 21 May 2002 > Message: > This only applies to cars that work like a VW. > Those with no external fuel pump (the only pumps > are in the injector pump and it pulls the fuel > toward it). You didn't say what kind of car you > are converting. > I don't know how Neoteric is doing things. > The time it takes to flush your pump is very much > effected by the system you use. > The one solenoid, return to the front of the > pump setup takes the longest to flush. > As the fresh diesel is on it way to flush the > pump it is contaminated by the vegetable oil you > are trying to get out of the pump. You don't > flush it out of the pump at all. You simply send > it back into the pump again. That's not the only > problem with this system but without a fuel temp > guage you probably won't know about the other one > till you start idleing funny. > With other systems you can flush in one minute. > The loop system does allow for the quickest > starts. When the weather is good you can start in > vegy mode. If you have your vacuum guage hooked > up (ppillard) you'll see no extreme vacuum. (none > o
