Re: [biofuel] veggie conversion on Jetta, whats involved?

[Keith Addison]

Hi Carl

>I recently puchased a 98 VW Jetta diesel and I understand some of the
>seals and fuel lines may not last with B100.

I'm sure that's not true. All European cars made since the early 90s 
are biodiesel-resistant.

>If this is not correct
>and people are running these engines without any long term problems
>on B100, I'm all ears. My first thought though is to do a grease
>conversion and I could use feedback on that.

TDI?
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html
The TDI-SVO controversy

>I wonder about things
>like where can I squeeze in a tank? What the best way to pre-heat the
>oil is, etc.
>I also have a Mitsubishi Fuso commercial truck that I want to
>convert. I'd heard the same issues with deteriation to seals being an
>issue to some extent and thought straight oil conversion would be
>easier for that vehicle than replacing crucial seals with synthetic
>ones. Carl

What year is it? I don't think any vehicles have used rubber seals 
since the mid-90s at the latest. Check with Mitsubishi, but I'm sure 
you can use biodiesel, just put it in and go.

Best

Keith



>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] veggie conversion on Jetta, whats involved?

[carl]

I recently puchased a 98 VW Jetta diesel and I understand some of the 
seals and fuel lines may not last with B100. If this is not correct 
and people are running these engines without any long term problems 
on B100, I'm all ears. My first thought though is to do a grease 
conversion and I could use feedback on that. I wonder about things 
like where can I squeeze in a tank? What the best way to pre-heat the 
oil is, etc.
I also have a Mitsubishi Fuso commercial truck that I want to 
convert. I'd heard the same issues with deteriation to seals being an 
issue to some extent and thought straight oil conversion would be 
easier for that vehicle than replacing crucial seals with synthetic 
ones. Carl



 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] hydrogen

[dan]

interesting press release.

http://www.melisenergy.com/Public_Relations.htm




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger
http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuels-biz] NCGA Calculator

[Tim Castleman]

Useful tool to calculate subsidy payments for oilseeds:
http://www.ncga.com/farmbill/calculator/calculator.htm



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
http://archive.nnytech.net/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Fwd: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago

[Keith Addison]

Thankyou Kirk.

Seems to be an opening for someone to do a biofuel piece on the 
electric radio. Now's your chance to be rich and famous. Well, 
famous. Okay, maybe not so famous. 15 minutes maybe?

Keith



>
>
>KPFK, Listener-Sponsored Radio; Pacifica radio for all of Southern
>California, heard at 90.7 fm and 98.7 fm in Santa Barbara County.
>Founded in 1959, KPFK brings together the rich diversity of Southern
>California in a fiercely independent mix of news, talk, culture and world
>music.
>
>Pacifica Radio invented listener-sponsored public broadcasting -- and while
>other public stations increasingly depend on corporate support -- KPFK
>stands alone as a truly non-commercial, mission-driven broadcast service.
>
>Over 83% of KPFK's budget comes directly from listeners like you. We also
>receive federal tax funds from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in
>the form of a matching grant tied directly to your support.
>http://www.kpfk.org/
>
>
>
>
>
>-Original Message-
>From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:21 PM
>To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: [biofuel] Fwd: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago
>
>
>Crossed lines... we didn't make a KPFK cast and don't know what KPFK
>is. Anyone here know what he's talking about? Or who? Or want to take
>him up on it?
>
>Keith
>
>
>
> >Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:31:19 -0800
> >From: Nick Richert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >X-Accept-Language: en
> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Subject: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago
> >
> >since then Ive bben a little bit prooactive in volunteering at the
> >readio staion..  getting aqainted with writing stories and working on
> >thinigs in the news room...
> >
> >anyway..
> >
> >I'm exteremely interested in what your doing to help create a sustainble
> >world  and would like to interview you  and  possibly see one of your
> >cars, how it works, and create a short documentary to be screened
> >whereever possible, not for profit, kind of a how to video as well
> >
> >My name is Griffin. I have Documentary experience and am willing to
> >collaborate on ideas.
> >
> >Please respond if you are interested   via  email at this address
> >or  by calling 310 967 4440 and leaving your contact info
> >
> >Thanxs Alot!




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Plan to Sell a Home?
http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] New Distillers FAQ

[Tony & Elle Ackland]

Hmmm I've been a bit slack about getting this out on a regular basis.
Any suggestions for additions/changes etc ?

**
"NEW DISTILLERS" Frequently Asked Questions (June'02)

Posted near the 1st of each month, to the NEW_DISTILLERS newsgroup at 
www.yahoogroups.com

Please email any additions, corrections, clarifications required, etc 
regarding the FAQ to Tony Ackland ([EMAIL PROTECTED]), however please 
direct any general questions to the newsgroup itself.

***

1) Is distilling hard to do ?
2) Is it legal ?
3) Will it make me blind ?
4) Whats the difference between a pot still, reflux still, and 
fractionating column ?
5) How do I get or make a still ?
6) How do I make a whisky / rum / vodka / gin ?
7) Should I use sugar or grains ?
8) Can I use fruit wine ?
9) How do I get rid of that "off-taste" ?
10) How do I measure the strength of it & dilute it ?
11) How do I flavour/turn the vodka's into something else ?
12) What web resources are there ?
13) How do I contact the NEW DISTILLERS news group ?
14) Can I run my car on it ?
15) How do I convert between gallons and litres and 
16) What is a "Thumper" ?
17) Can I use a reflux still to make rum or whisky ?
18) Can methylated spirits be made safe to drink ?

**

1) Is distilling hard to do ?

Nope - if you can follow instructions enough to bake scones, then you can 
sucessfully distil. To distil well however, will require you to understand 
what you're doing, so read around and get a bit of information under your 
belt before you begin.

2) Is it legal ?

Probably not. It is only legal in New Zealand, and some European countries 
turn a blind eye to it, but elsewhere it is illegal, with punishment 
ranging from fines to imprisonment or floggings. This action against it is 
usually the result of either religous beliefs (right or wrong), but more 
generally due to the great revenue base it provides Governements through 
excise taxes. So if you are going to distil, just be aware of the potential 
legal ramifications.

3) Will it make me blind ?

Not if you're careful. This pervasive question is due to moonshine lore, 
which abounds with myths of blindness, but few actual documented cases. The 
concern is due to the presence of methanol (wood alcohol), an optic nerve 
poison, which can be present in small amounts when fermenting grains or 
fruits high in pectin. This methanol comes off first from the still, so it 
is easily segregated and discarded. A simple rule of thumb for this is to 
throw away the first 50 mL you collect (per 20 L mash used). Probably the 
greatest risk to your health during distilling is the risk of fire - 
collecting a flammable liquid near a heat source. So keep a fire 
extinguisher nearby.

4) Whats the difference between a pot still, reflux still, and fractiona  
ting column ?

A pot still simply collects and condenses the alcohol vapours that come off 
the boiling mash. This will result in an alcohol at about 40-60% purity, 
with plenty of flavour in it. If this distillate were put through the pot 
still again, it would increase in purity to around 70-85% purity, and lose 
a bit of its flavour.

A reflux still does these multiple distillations in one single go, by 
having some packing in a column between the condensor & the pot, and 
allowing some of the vapour to condense and trickle back down through the 
packing. This "reflux" of liquid helps clean the rising vapour and increase 
the % purity. The taller the packed column, and the more reflux liquid, the 
purer the product will be. The advantage of doing this is that it will 
result in a clean vodka, with little flavour to it - ideal for mixing with 
flavours etc.

A fractionating column is a pure form of the reflux still. It will condense 
all the vapour at the top of the packing, and return about 9/10 back down 
the column. The column will be quite tall - say 600-1200mm (2-4 foot), and 
packed with a material high in surface area, but which takes up little 
space (pot scrubbers are good for this). It will result in an alcohol 95%+ 
pure (the theoretical limit without using a vacuum is 96.48 %(by volume)), 
with no other tastes or impurities in it.

5) How do I get or make a still ?

If you're after a pot still, these are generally home made using what-ever 
you have at hand - say copper tubing and old water heaters or pressure 
cookers. Reflux stills can be made from plans on the net, or bought from 
several manufacturers. For reflux stil plans see Stillmakers "Build a World 
Class Distillation Apparatus" at http://www.Moonshine-Still.com (Free!) or 
Gert Strands : http://partyman.se/Engelsk/default.htm (US$5). A good book 
is Ian Smileys "Making Pure Corn Whisky" at 
http://www.magma.ca/~smiley/main.htm, with full design details. For an 
excellent book on all aspects of still 

[biofuel] Fwd: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago

[Keith Addison]

Crossed lines... we didn't make a KPFK cast and don't know what KPFK 
is. Anyone here know what he's talking about? Or who? Or want to take 
him up on it?

Keith



>Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:31:19 -0800
>From: Nick Richert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>X-Accept-Language: en
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago
>
>since then Ive bben a little bit prooactive in volunteering at the
>readio staion..  getting aqainted with writing stories and working on
>thinigs in the news room...
>
>anyway..
>
>I'm exteremely interested in what your doing to help create a sustainble
>world  and would like to interview you  and  possibly see one of your
>cars, how it works, and create a short documentary to be screened
>whereever possible, not for profit, kind of a how to video as well
>
>My name is Griffin. I have Documentary experience and am willing to
>collaborate on ideas.
>
>Please respond if you are interested   via  email at this address
>or  by calling 310 967 4440 and leaving your contact info
>
>Thanxs Alot!


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Fwd: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago

[kirk]

KPFK, Listener-Sponsored Radio; Pacifica radio for all of Southern
California, heard at 90.7 fm and 98.7 fm in Santa Barbara County.
Founded in 1959, KPFK brings together the rich diversity of Southern
California in a fiercely independent mix of news, talk, culture and world
music.

Pacifica Radio invented listener-sponsored public broadcasting -- and while
other public stations increasingly depend on corporate support -- KPFK
stands alone as a truly non-commercial, mission-driven broadcast service.

Over 83% of KPFK's budget comes directly from listeners like you. We also
receive federal tax funds from the Corporation for Public Broadcasting in
the form of a matching grant tied directly to your support.
http://www.kpfk.org/





-Original Message-
From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2002 3:21 PM
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [biofuel] Fwd: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago


Crossed lines... we didn't make a KPFK cast and don't know what KPFK
is. Anyone here know what he's talking about? Or who? Or want to take
him up on it?

Keith



>Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 10:31:19 -0800
>From: Nick Richert <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>X-Accept-Language: en
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Hello I heard your KPFK cast awhile ago
>
>since then Ive bben a little bit prooactive in volunteering at the
>readio staion..  getting aqainted with writing stories and working on
>thinigs in the news room...
>
>anyway..
>
>I'm exteremely interested in what your doing to help create a sustainble
>world  and would like to interview you  and  possibly see one of your
>cars, how it works, and create a short documentary to be screened
>whereever possible, not for profit, kind of a how to video as well
>
>My name is Griffin. I have Documentary experience and am willing to
>collaborate on ideas.
>
>Please respond if you are interested   via  email at this address
>or  by calling 310 967 4440 and leaving your contact info
>
>Thanxs Alot!


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/


---
Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.410 / Virus Database: 231 - Release Date: 10/31/2002


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] syn fuel?

[Keith Addison]

>Something doesn't fit, here - in 1917, wasn't Hitler a corporal in 
>the Kaiser's army?
>
>"processes (invented back in 1917 by
> >Hitler's synthetic fuels scientists)"
>
>Neil

Hi Neil

It's just a bit awkwardly phrased. By WW2 they were making synthetic 
fuels for Hitler out of low-grade brown coal. "... processes (which 
Hitler's synthetic fuels scientists had invented back in 1917)" would 
have been better.

Had this in a recent post:

> "One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for 
>going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's 
>synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of 
>Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down 
>into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He 
>brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected 
>this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal 
>as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version 
>of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As 
>the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he 
>couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he 
>realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had 
>been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, 
>alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took 
>his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to 
>Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and 
>it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest 
>synthetic fuels producer globally."

Best

Keith



>>I was also trawling the archive, and came upon this interesting piece
>>on alcohol via other routes than fermentation/distillation, from Mark
>>Radosevich of Standard Alcohol Company. Note the last paragraph, on
>>lignocellulosic conversion - a bit of a damper.
>>
>>
>>
>> >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>> >From: "Mark Radosevich" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> >Date: Sun, 23 Sep 2001 18:46:28 -
>> >Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
>> >Subject: [biofuel] Ethanol from Coal ???
>> >
>> >Fischer-Tropsch conversion of synthesis gas to oxycarbon alcohols or
>> >into synfuel hydrocarbons (syn-gasoline, diesel, jet fuel) which is
>> >first made by coal gasification processes (invented back in 1917 by
>> >Hitler's synthetic fuels scientists) is probably the cheapest way I
>> >know of to produce methanol.
>> >
>> >And now, with improved FT reactor catalysts, synthetic ethanol and
>> >higher mixed alcohols including propanol, butanol, pentanol,
>> >hexanol, heptanol and 8-carbon octanol can be produced as well using
>> >coal as a cheap and abundant feedstock. Alternatively, pipeline
>> >methane or even society's garbage and sewer sludge utilized as
>> >bio-feedstocks work exceptionally well for the typical "front end"
>> >processes of steam reformation or gasification which typically drive
>> >this synthetic fuel technology. Synthesis gas is a mixture of three
>> >basic elements to include carbon, hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrocarbons
>> >(oils) are molecules containing Hydrogen & Carbon. Oxycarbons
>> >(alcohols) simply add a third element Oxygen and become water
>> >soluble, thus biodegradable.
>> >
>> >New, higher powered bugs are responsible for breaking down green
>> >plant matter as a lignocellulosic conversion which then ferment and
>> >distill out more expensive ethanol than the traditional corn
>> >fermentation processes, --whether they be either wet or dried
>> >milling technologies. The lignocellulosic arena is excited and
>> >growing, but I don't hold out any hopes for its ultimate
>> >profitability. Too expensive and 90% of the light-weight porriages
>> >remaining must still be trucked and spread out over the lands as
>> >weak fertilizer. With corn fermentation, the remaining porriage is
>> >utilized as a high-grade food co-product, something that the U.S.
>> >ethanol lobby hasn't explained very well to average Americans.
>> >
>> >Best Regards,
>> >
>> >Mark Radosevich
>> >Standard Alcohol Company
>> >Durango, Colorado
>>
>>
>>Best
>>
>>Keith


 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Sell a Home with Ease!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] at last... an unlimited free energy source?

[Lisa]

A little alternative energy humor from today's Bonehead of the Day
newsletter:
http://bonehead.oddballs.com/

Today's nice comment from a nice person (Dennis, from Laurel,
Missouri)

"Reading your newsletter has brought me to the unsettling realization
that if, around the turn of the last century, someone had invented an
engine that ran on stupidity, we'd probably have visited the entire
galaxy by now."



~
~Lisa~
~

Annoy a politician today -- THINK!!





Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] New forum

[Keith Addison]

>Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:30:39 -0600
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: New Interactive website at Fuel and Fiber
>
>November 13, 2002
>New Interactive website at Fuel and Fiber
>
>An all new interactive website has been installed at 
>http://fuelandfiber.com and is ready for your use:
>
>Browse and post to the 'Forums'
>Browse the 'Articles'
>Browse the 'Links' section
>Browse the 'Downloads' section
>Browse the 'Classified ads'
>Search the 'Archived' website
>Subscribe to our 'Newsletter'
>Submit Your 'Banner Ad' for rotation
>Submit an event for the 'Events' calendar
>
>You can do even more if you are a 'Member':
>You are invited join now for FREE with no hassle or long form to fill out.
>Once you join you will have full access to:
>Submit Articles for publication
>Submit links in the 'Links' section
>Submit documents & studies to the 'Downloads' section
>Place a FREE classified ad
>Start new topics in the forums
>Send instant messages or e-mails to other members
>And much more! Coming soon for 'Members' is an 'Office' suite that 
>will provide an enhanced calendar and other useful features to help 
>you communicate and get more done.
>
>Moderators needed>
>Anyone interested in serving as 'Moderator' or 'Administrator' is 
>invited to ask for member status changes that will allow even more 
>interaction with the site.
>We are building a community resource to fulfill the Fuel and Fiber 
>Company vision of sustainable and environmentally friendly 
>substitutes for fossil fuel and timber. Please join the effort to 
>overcome the lies and half truths perpetuated by some well rooted 
>special interests that would prefer to see this information 
>repressed or held within their own particular circles.
>
>Publish your Articles & Papers
>The 'Archived' Fuel and Fiber Company website has become a useful 
>resource for researchers around the world, and all of the great 
>articles and documents are still there for your use and enjoyment. 
>Please consider contributing your articles and data!
>
>Your opinion counts!
>Visit http://fuelandfiber.com today and cast your vote with our 
>ongoing polling for your opinions on various issues. I hope I 
>haven't left anything out, and frankly, I was a little overwhelmed 
>when I first logged in, but I quickly learned the ropes and believe 
>this tool can do a lot to help achieve our common goals. Please take 
>a few minutes and visit http://www.fuelandfiber.com soon!
>Peace,
>Tim
>
>***Note: All e-mail addresses in our database from the newsletter 
>hosted by Topica have been imported to this new format and we will 
>discontinue use of Topica for any new messages. (Assuming everything 
>works ;) When you join at the new website you will then have the 
>option to unsubscribe from the newsletter and even remove yourself 
>completely from our database if you like.
>
> 
>   - 
>--
>   If you no longer wish to receive our newsletter 
>please go to http://www.fuelandfiber.com, log in, click on 'Member 
>Options', and then choose to unsubscribe.
> 
>   - 
>--


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuel] syn fuel?

[Neil McAnally]

Something doesn't fit, here - in 1917, wasn't Hitler a corporal in the Kaiser's 
army?

"processes (invented back in 1917 by 
>Hitler's synthetic fuels scientists)"

Neil


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuels-biz] New forum

[Keith Addison]

>Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 11:30:39 -0600
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: New Interactive website at Fuel and Fiber
>
>November 13, 2002
>New Interactive website at Fuel and Fiber
>
>An all new interactive website has been installed at 
>http://fuelandfiber.com and is ready for your use:
>
>Browse and post to the 'Forums'
>Browse the 'Articles'
>Browse the 'Links' section
>Browse the 'Downloads' section
>Browse the 'Classified ads'
>Search the 'Archived' website
>Subscribe to our 'Newsletter'
>Submit Your 'Banner Ad' for rotation
>Submit an event for the 'Events' calendar
>
>You can do even more if you are a 'Member':
>You are invited join now for FREE with no hassle or long form to fill out.
>Once you join you will have full access to:
>Submit Articles for publication
>Submit links in the 'Links' section
>Submit documents & studies to the 'Downloads' section
>Place a FREE classified ad
>Start new topics in the forums
>Send instant messages or e-mails to other members
>And much more! Coming soon for 'Members' is an 'Office' suite that 
>will provide an enhanced calendar and other useful features to help 
>you communicate and get more done.
>
>Moderators needed>
>Anyone interested in serving as 'Moderator' or 'Administrator' is 
>invited to ask for member status changes that will allow even more 
>interaction with the site.
>We are building a community resource to fulfill the Fuel and Fiber 
>Company vision of sustainable and environmentally friendly 
>substitutes for fossil fuel and timber. Please join the effort to 
>overcome the lies and half truths perpetuated by some well rooted 
>special interests that would prefer to see this information 
>repressed or held within their own particular circles.
>
>Publish your Articles & Papers
>The 'Archived' Fuel and Fiber Company website has become a useful 
>resource for researchers around the world, and all of the great 
>articles and documents are still there for your use and enjoyment. 
>Please consider contributing your articles and data!
>
>Your opinion counts!
>Visit http://fuelandfiber.com today and cast your vote with our 
>ongoing polling for your opinions on various issues. I hope I 
>haven't left anything out, and frankly, I was a little overwhelmed 
>when I first logged in, but I quickly learned the ropes and believe 
>this tool can do a lot to help achieve our common goals. Please take 
>a few minutes and visit http://www.fuelandfiber.com soon!
>Peace,
>Tim
>
>***Note: All e-mail addresses in our database from the newsletter 
>hosted by Topica have been imported to this new format and we will 
>discontinue use of Topica for any new messages. (Assuming everything 
>works ;) When you join at the new website you will then have the 
>option to unsubscribe from the newsletter and even remove yourself 
>completely from our database if you like.
>
> 
>   - 
>--
>   If you no longer wish to receive our newsletter 
>please go to http://www.fuelandfiber.com, log in, click on 'Member 
>Options', and then choose to unsubscribe.
> 
>   - 
>--


Biofuels at Journey to Forever
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Biofuel at WebConX
http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm
List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech:
http://archive.nnytech.net/
To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

[biofuels-biz] EREN Network News -- 11/13/02

[EREN]

=
EREN NETWORK NEWS -- November 13, 2002
A weekly newsletter from the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE)
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network (EREN).

=

Featuring:
*News and Events
   U.S. Navy Dedicates a 750-Kilowatt Solar Power System
   Company Proposes 12.5 Gigawatts of Wind at 17 Offshore Sites
   DOE Releases Its Strategic Plan for Efficiency, Renewables
   DOE Refocuses Truck Initiative and Unveils Hydrogen Roadmap
   Puget Sound Energy to Restructure Time-of-Use Pilot
   Ethanol Construction Boom Brings Michigan Its First Plant
   How About Solar Power on the Moon?

*Site News
   Practical Ocean Energy Management Systems (POEMS)

*Energy Facts and Tips
   EIA Updates Energy Analyses for Iraq and Afghanistan

*About this Newsletter


--
NEWS AND EVENTS
--
U.S. Navy Dedicates a 750-Kilowatt Solar Power System

The U.S. Navy announced last week that it has installed the largest
federal solar power system to date at Naval Base Coronado, located
in San Diego, California. The 750-kilowatt system generates enough
electricity during the day to power 935 homes. The photovoltaic
panels also form a half-mile-long covered parking structure in the
naval base's parking lot, providing shading for more than 400
vehicles. The solar panels actually have a peak capacity of 924
kilowatts, but the system that connects the panels to the electrical
grid will produce only 750 kilowatts. That system converts the
direct current output from the panels into three-phase, 12-kilovolt
power that is fed into the Navy's electrical distribution system.

The system is expected to provide three percent of the base's peak
summer electrical load. Installed through an Energy Savings
Performance Contract with NORESCO, an energy services company, and
designed, manufactured, and installed by PowerLight Corporation, the
system is expected to save more than $288,000 in energy costs each
year. See the November 6th press release and the accompanying fact
sheet on the Navy Region Southwest Web site at:
.

In another part of San Diego County, much smaller solar power
systems are providing a useful service to much different facilities:
the learning centers at three Indian reservations. The Manzanita and
La Posta bands of Mission Indians and the Campo Band of Kumeyaay
Indians now have high-speed Internet access, thanks to a
collaboration among San Diego State University's Mount Laguna
Observatory, the Tribal Digital Village Network, and the High-
Performance Wireless Research and Education Network (HPWREN), an
interdisciplinary project of the University of California, San Diego
(UCSD). A new microwave antenna at the observatory provides a
connection between the UCSD broadband system and three solar-powered
relays, which provide the final link to learning centers on each
reservation. Each relay station is powered by a 320-watt solar power
system with battery backup. See the HPWREN press release at:
.

The installation brings the total number of Internet-connected
reservations in San Diego County to 10. The county has 18 small
Indian reservations, the most of any county in the United States.
For more information, see the University of San Diego Web site at:
.


Company Proposes 12.5 Gigawatts of Wind at 17 Offshore Sites

A relative newcomer among wind energy developers is aiming to be a
leader in U.S. offshore wind power, with proposals in development
for 17 sites along the east coast. Winergy LLC lists sites off the
coasts of Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland,
and Virginia as potential locations for its wind facilities. Most of
the proposed wind plants total hundreds of megawatts each, and three
exceed 1000 megawatts in capacity. The largest, called Gulf Bank and
located off the Maryland coast, is a whopping 1,821.6 megawatts in
capacity.

Just how many of these wind sites will actually be developed is
anyone's guess, of course, but the company should earn some respect
for just the sheer chutzpah of its proposals. The current list of
proposed projects totals 12,552.8 megawatts, about equal in peak
capacity to 12 average-sized nuclear power plants. And apparently,
they're not done yet: According to the Winergy Web site, the company
has identified a total of 22 sites for which it has begun the
initial application process. The company acknowledges that the
permitting process for each site is likely to take three to five
years. See the Winergy Web site at:
.

Unfortunately, very little information is

[biofuel] EREN Network News -- 11/13/02

[EREN]

=
EREN NETWORK NEWS -- November 13, 2002
A weekly newsletter from the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE)
Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy Network (EREN).

=

Featuring:
*News and Events
   U.S. Navy Dedicates a 750-Kilowatt Solar Power System
   Company Proposes 12.5 Gigawatts of Wind at 17 Offshore Sites
   DOE Releases Its Strategic Plan for Efficiency, Renewables
   DOE Refocuses Truck Initiative and Unveils Hydrogen Roadmap
   Puget Sound Energy to Restructure Time-of-Use Pilot
   Ethanol Construction Boom Brings Michigan Its First Plant
   How About Solar Power on the Moon?

*Site News
   Practical Ocean Energy Management Systems (POEMS)

*Energy Facts and Tips
   EIA Updates Energy Analyses for Iraq and Afghanistan

*About this Newsletter


--
NEWS AND EVENTS
--
U.S. Navy Dedicates a 750-Kilowatt Solar Power System

The U.S. Navy announced last week that it has installed the largest
federal solar power system to date at Naval Base Coronado, located
in San Diego, California. The 750-kilowatt system generates enough
electricity during the day to power 935 homes. The photovoltaic
panels also form a half-mile-long covered parking structure in the
naval base's parking lot, providing shading for more than 400
vehicles. The solar panels actually have a peak capacity of 924
kilowatts, but the system that connects the panels to the electrical
grid will produce only 750 kilowatts. That system converts the
direct current output from the panels into three-phase, 12-kilovolt
power that is fed into the Navy's electrical distribution system.

The system is expected to provide three percent of the base's peak
summer electrical load. Installed through an Energy Savings
Performance Contract with NORESCO, an energy services company, and
designed, manufactured, and installed by PowerLight Corporation, the
system is expected to save more than $288,000 in energy costs each
year. See the November 6th press release and the accompanying fact
sheet on the Navy Region Southwest Web site at:
.

In another part of San Diego County, much smaller solar power
systems are providing a useful service to much different facilities:
the learning centers at three Indian reservations. The Manzanita and
La Posta bands of Mission Indians and the Campo Band of Kumeyaay
Indians now have high-speed Internet access, thanks to a
collaboration among San Diego State University's Mount Laguna
Observatory, the Tribal Digital Village Network, and the High-
Performance Wireless Research and Education Network (HPWREN), an
interdisciplinary project of the University of California, San Diego
(UCSD). A new microwave antenna at the observatory provides a
connection between the UCSD broadband system and three solar-powered
relays, which provide the final link to learning centers on each
reservation. Each relay station is powered by a 320-watt solar power
system with battery backup. See the HPWREN press release at:
.

The installation brings the total number of Internet-connected
reservations in San Diego County to 10. The county has 18 small
Indian reservations, the most of any county in the United States.
For more information, see the University of San Diego Web site at:
.


Company Proposes 12.5 Gigawatts of Wind at 17 Offshore Sites

A relative newcomer among wind energy developers is aiming to be a
leader in U.S. offshore wind power, with proposals in development
for 17 sites along the east coast. Winergy LLC lists sites off the
coasts of Massachusetts, New York, New Jersey, Delaware, Maryland,
and Virginia as potential locations for its wind facilities. Most of
the proposed wind plants total hundreds of megawatts each, and three
exceed 1000 megawatts in capacity. The largest, called Gulf Bank and
located off the Maryland coast, is a whopping 1,821.6 megawatts in
capacity.

Just how many of these wind sites will actually be developed is
anyone's guess, of course, but the company should earn some respect
for just the sheer chutzpah of its proposals. The current list of
proposed projects totals 12,552.8 megawatts, about equal in peak
capacity to 12 average-sized nuclear power plants. And apparently,
they're not done yet: According to the Winergy Web site, the company
has identified a total of 22 sites for which it has begun the
initial application process. The company acknowledges that the
permitting process for each site is likely to take three to five
years. See the Winergy Web site at:
.

Unfortunately, very little information is

Re: [biofuel] diesel Nissans

[Kenneth Kron]

Guess I'm earlier than I knew...  I got mine for $1600 with 186K miles 
on it and otherwise in pretty good condition for a 20 year old car. 
 Only a couple of small dents and I think the AC doesn't work + a 
cracked bolt mount for the secondary fuel filter that I just found out 
about.

I think I'm getting about 20 miles to the gallon but I haven't run a 
full tank yet.  That's one of the problems with running BD is no one is 
measuring your fuel input for you :^).

kk

girl mark wrote:

>one Don' know 
>about the fuel economy of that one, but it's the only 6-cyl American diesel 
>truck, I think. It's simple, roomy, both in the truckbed as it's a fullsize 
>truck, and in the engine compartment as it's got no extra, fancy, breakable 
>computer crap.  And it has a far, far better reputation than the other 
>American products.
>Mark
>(very large) 83 Ford F-250
>
>
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Biofuels list archives:
>http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
>Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
>
>Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 
>
>
>
>  
>




 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-->
Sell a Home with Ease!
http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM
-~->

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] converting a Kubotq

[Kim & Garth Travis]

Many thanks, you changed the direction of my thinking.  Since I have to 
have the seat all the way forward to reach the pedals, I do have room 
behind the seat for a small tank.

Has anyone run into any problems converting a dino diesel tank into a 
WVO or SVO tank?

Bright Blessings,
Kim

Juan Boveda wrote:

> Hi Kim
> 
> My father did not run the Kubota with SVO neither WVO, only with
> dinodiesel. At that time the diesel fuel was cheap and I did not know we
> could use veg oil to run a diesel engine.
> 
> The tractor has a slim body, it was mainly the engine fixed to huge
> gearboxes and axles with the only room for the fuel tank between the
> instrument panel and the engine. The only place left is behind the driver's
> seat.
> 
> I think you could put a small tank for the starting diesel behind the
> diver's seat, like the ones for  outboard marine engines and the standard
> tank located behind the engine could be loaded with WVO heated with the hot
> water form the cooling system with some shorter hoses and a hot finger tube
> entering at the fuel filling cap, removable for filling with the veg oil.
> The heat radiated and the hot air coming from the engine will help as well.
> So there will be few modifications to the original model.
> 
> Make shure the extra tank and hoses are safely protected from somebody
> attempting to ride or stepping at the driver's back.
> 
> Regards
> 
> Juan
> 
> -Mensaje original-
> De:  Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Enviado el:  Martes 12 de Noviembre de 2002 04:13 PM
> Para:  biofuel@yahoogroups.com
> Asunto:  Re: [biofuel] converting a Kubotq
> 
> Where did he mount the second tank?  I know I have to start and stop on
> bio or dino diesel, but I would like to run on WVO.  I can't figure out
> where to put a tank, with a front end loader.
> 
> I will put checking out the pump on dh's honeydo list.
> 
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
> 
> Juan Boveda wrote:
> 
>  > Hi Kim
>  >
>  > Many years ago my old man used to have Kubota tractor, I think it was the
>  > same model like yours. It did not run on WVO or SVO but once we
> discovered
>  > a problem with the fuel pump, the impeller came inverted from factory (
> :-(
>  > ) and the suction was very low, he changed very often the fuel filters
>  > until the problem was discovered  after that there were no more problems
>  > with the engine. It was  a nice machine to work with on the field, 4wd,
> PTO
>  > and a low fuel consuption.
>  >
>  > If your modeI has the same fuel system I would suggest to check the pump
>  > vacuum before running on WVO.
>  >
>  > Regards
>  >
>  > Juan
>  >
>  > -Mensaje original-
>  > De:  Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > Enviado el:  Domingo 10 de Noviembre de 2002 05:31 PM
>  > Para:  biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  > Asunto:  [biofuel] converting a Kubotq
>  >
>  > Sorry for cross posting, but I decided to look at converting my tractor
>  > before I look for a diesel truck.  If biodiesel is not a good idea for a
>  > fire truck, I don't see it being a good idea for the firefighter to
>  > depend on to get to the truck.
>  >
>  > I have a Kubota M4700F/DT and I would like to set it up to run on WVO,
>  > most of the time.  I plan on using it not just for farm work, but to
>  > power a generator, until I can find an appropriate diesel engine.  The
>  > tractor has a front end loader on it and I am not able to remove it.
>  >
>  > Has anyone ever converted a Kubota before?
>  >
>  > Bright Blessings,
>  > Kim
>  >
>  >
>  > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>  >
>  > Biofuels list archives:
>  > http://archive.nnytech.net/
>  >
>  > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>  > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >
>  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>  >
>  > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>  > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>  >
>  > Biofuels list archives:
>  > http://archive.nnytech.net/
>  >
>  > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
>  > To unsubscribe, send an email to:
>  > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  >
>  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
>  > .
> 
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
> 
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

RE: [biofuel] converting a Kubotq

[Juan Boveda]

Hi Kim

My father did not run the Kubota with SVO neither WVO, only with 
dinodiesel. At that time the diesel fuel was cheap and I did not know we 
could use veg oil to run a diesel engine.

The tractor has a slim body, it was mainly the engine fixed to huge 
gearboxes and axles with the only room for the fuel tank between the 
instrument panel and the engine. The only place left is behind the driver's 
seat.

I think you could put a small tank for the starting diesel behind the 
diver's seat, like the ones for  outboard marine engines and the standard 
tank located behind the engine could be loaded with WVO heated with the hot 
water form the cooling system with some shorter hoses and a hot finger tube 
entering at the fuel filling cap, removable for filling with the veg oil. 
The heat radiated and the hot air coming from the engine will help as well. 
So there will be few modifications to the original model.

Make shure the extra tank and hoses are safely protected from somebody 
attempting to ride or stepping at the driver's back.

Regards

Juan

-Mensaje original-
De: Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Enviado el: Martes 12 de Noviembre de 2002 04:13 PM
Para:   biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Asunto: Re: [biofuel] converting a Kubotq

Where did he mount the second tank?  I know I have to start and stop on
bio or dino diesel, but I would like to run on WVO.  I can't figure out
where to put a tank, with a front end loader.

I will put checking out the pump on dh's honeydo list.

Bright Blessings,
Kim

Juan Boveda wrote:

> Hi Kim
>
> Many years ago my old man used to have Kubota tractor, I think it was the
> same model like yours. It did not run on WVO or SVO but once we 
discovered
> a problem with the fuel pump, the impeller came inverted from factory ( 
:-(
> ) and the suction was very low, he changed very often the fuel filters
> until the problem was discovered  after that there were no more problems
> with the engine. It was  a nice machine to work with on the field, 4wd, 
PTO
> and a low fuel consuption.
>
> If your modeI has the same fuel system I would suggest to check the pump
> vacuum before running on WVO.
>
> Regards
>
> Juan
>
> -Mensaje original-
> De:  Kim & Garth Travis [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Enviado el:  Domingo 10 de Noviembre de 2002 05:31 PM
> Para:  biofuel@yahoogroups.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Asunto:  [biofuel] converting a Kubotq
>
> Sorry for cross posting, but I decided to look at converting my tractor
> before I look for a diesel truck.  If biodiesel is not a good idea for a
> fire truck, I don't see it being a good idea for the firefighter to
> depend on to get to the truck.
>
> I have a Kubota M4700F/DT and I would like to set it up to run on WVO,
> most of the time.  I plan on using it not just for farm work, but to
> power a generator, until I can find an appropriate diesel engine.  The
> tractor has a front end loader on it and I am not able to remove it.
>
> Has anyone ever converted a Kubota before?
>
> Bright Blessings,
> Kim
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Biofuels list archives:
> http://archive.nnytech.net/
>
> Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
> To unsubscribe, send an email to:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service
> .


Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

Re: [biofuel] Common roots

[JOSEPH . MARTELLE]

Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com

To:biofuel@yahoogroups.com
cc:
Subject:Re: [biofuel] Common roots


http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Biofuels list archives:
http://archive.nnytech.net/

Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ 

RE: [biofuel] Re: Fuel Ethanol Faq

[Keith Addison]

Hi Martin

You often get this kind of picture (your first link) from the 
top-down view. Like the amount of land it would require to produce 
enough biodiesel to replace all dino-diesel use in the US - not 
feasible.

I've posted several messages on a rather different sort of picture 
that emerges if you consider micro-niche production at the local 
level rather than the usual centralized production model. It includes 
a rather large amount of fuel that, in several ways, could be 
produced without using any farmland at all, as with the huge amounts 
of food (food, not commodities) produced worldwide by city farms, for 
one example. A thorough study of this by people accustomed to working 
at this local level rather than number-crunchers in Washington or 
academics sitting in various ivory towers would reveal much more 
opportunity here than I've thought of. I also said small integrated 
mixed farms (sustainable farms in other words) could produce much or 
all their own fuel needs and perhaps more than that from a changing 
variety of by-products and waste products without impinging on actual 
crop production, thus in effect also not using any farmland at all, 
as far as the figures are concerned. It's easy to build such 
arrangements into cropping plans.

I'm glad you put the word "waste" in quotes. Is there really such a 
thing as "waste"? Not something ever found in nature. Doesn't it just 
mean human inefficiency, or incomplete technology application? Or an 
immature economics?

In some of the old Chinese traditional villages in Hong Kong, and of 
course elsewhere, you still find people who have not at all come to 
grips with the concept of non-biodegradeability. This leads to some 
strange sights. I saw an orchard which had been divided up, the old 
guy died and the sons got it I guess, maybe not too long previously, 
because everything was much the same on either side of the new fence. 
There were laichee (litchi?) trees there, on both sides, just a few 
feet away from each other, same size and all, planted at the same 
time. Both were deeply mulched in the leaf-fall area, as usual. There 
the similarities ended. The tree on the left was mulched with rice 
straw, old reed matting gone rotten, bits of cotton cloth and so on, 
looked nice. The tree on the other side was mulched with just as much 
care and attention, but with tin cans, old plastic sandals, dead 
torch batteries, plastic bags, toothpaste tubes, empty plastic 
dishwasher bottles, dead cassette tapes. Very bizarre sight, quite 
shocking to the eye. But those villagers couldn't see the difference. 
What's no use anymore you put under a tree, we've always done it that 
way.

Is a modern city landfill any the less bizarre? I don't think it is.

We've allowed this situation to develop because the way economics has 
been rigged allows such "costs" to be externalized more 
"economically" than any other method. That's far from an absolute, 
unchanging law of physics. For the last couple of decades, the forces 
of change, that will inevitably change it, have been mounting, ever 
more strongly. The polluter-pays principle, environmental cost 
accounting. The precautionary principle. And more and more hard 
evidence of the REAL costs to society of these allegedly cheap 
externalizations has emerged.

Right now, about the only thing we recycle really efficiently is 
gold, pretty useless stuff. We're going to have to learn to recycle 
everything as efficiently as we now recycle gold. Economics will 
change and be rigged, if necessary, to make this the most economical 
method. A lot of garbage will be transformed into energy and fuel. 
Some already is.

I always question the idea of turning crop wastes into ethanol. They 
are not wastes, even if they're currently treated as wastes. Removing 
them depresses the soil's nutrient economy. It has to be paid for one 
way or another. It can be paid for, and that taken into account, but 
not by treating it as valueless waste. When I started studying, and 
doing, appropriate technology for small farms I very quickly started 
putting a value on wastes, a sliding scale of values, and a 
completely different picture emerged. I know you can get a lot of 
"free" fuel that way, without depressing the soil economy, or even 
enhancing it sometimes.

So I don't think it's going to be a choice between ethanol and 
forests. Or at least it needn't be. Unless it's all planned and 
executed by those same wonderful folks who brought us Big Oil.

>I've always had the dream that a process like this could be profitable -
>or just feasible if you used all the 'waste' products for something, and
>produced all raw materials from other 'waste' products and highly
>abundant sources. i.e. energy from natural sources [water, wind, sun].
>Almost makes me want to be a chemist.
>I found some interesting pages:
>
>Ethanol from cellulose, and a depiction of the worst case scenario:
>http://www.daviesand.com/Perspectives/Forest_Products/Etha