Re: [Biofuel] US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet

[Keith Addison]

It's not off-topic, feel free.



I think you're missing one crucial fact - yes, we humans breathe, but 
what we breathe is in the current account, not the reserves. It's 
existing CO2 that just gets recirculated. We're carbon-neutral, at 
least as far as breathing goes. When motors and generators "breathe" 
out CO2 from fossil fuel resources, they're adding "new" CO2, not 
just recirculating existing CO2 - or rather they're adding very old 
CO2 that's been held out of current circulation for eons. Therefore 
the two things are not in any way comparable for their effects on the 
atmosphere and the climate.


You cite a 5 billion person increase in world population since 1800, 
and conclude that it's somehow "extra" CO2 that they're emitting, 
also "new" - but we're not the only creatures that breathe. It's 
meaningless unless not just we humans but the biosphere as a whole is 
emitting that much more CO2 than it was in 1800, and I don't think 
that's the case.


As for absorption:


Any thoughts on why there is so little press/attention for
increasing absorption?


It's not so, there is a large and continuing interest in it, it's a 
major part of the Kyoto protocol and is much researched and widely 
debated and reported. Maybe you searched for the wrong term: it's 
usually called carbon sequestration.



if someone else heard of this, maybe you have a source), that increasing
the amount of soil of the roots of trees causes the tree to absorb more
CO2.


If the soil is fertile and contains a lot of organic matter (humus), 
yes, but I wouldn't put it that way. It just makes the trees grow 
better. Generally speaking, trees are able to manage this for 
themselves, they make their own soil, and it's easy for us to help 
them manage it - and just as easy for us to wreck it for them. Such 
high organic matter soil does itself sequester a lot of CO2, and 
that's one of problems - modern industrialized farming, which is 
heavily dependent on fossil fuel inputs at every stage, is also a 
major destroyer worldwide of fertile soil.


Some trees sequester more CO2 than others, by the way, and the same 
goes for forests. Well-managed grassland can hold more CO2 than some 
forests can (and I do wish I could find my lost reference for that - 
a study published by New Scientist in the early 1990s).



However, this leads me to think that
since so much CO2 production is unavoidable (breathing is a right:-)),
maybe we should focus on increasing CO2 absorption instead of decreasing
output.


Nice try. :-)

The wrong premise aside, the focus is on BOTH decreasing output AND 
sequestering more CO2, as it has to be, the time is long over when we 
could pick and choose and twiddle our thumbs over it - while going on 
guzzling gas in the meantime. Sorry, it's cold turkey anyway.


The huge world majority of scientists qualified to know what they're 
talking about in these fields regard it as a fact that human-caused 
CO2 emissions from fossil-fuel overuse are causing global warming. 
The vanishingly few who still disagree, though disproportionately 
noisy, are either flakes or they turn out to be anything but 
disinterested, often heavily backed by big energy interests and their 
spin merchants. One part of this continuing effort to fudge the issue 
so big energy can go on making its profits even if it kills us all is 
to blur the distinction between "natural" CO2 emissions 
(current-account CO2 that's recirculated) and "new" CO2 emissions 
from fossil-fuel reserves. But there's no ambiguity, the distinction 
is clear.


Best wishes

Keith



Maybe this is slightly off-topic, but I was thinking lately and decided to
do some calculations. Basically, there's a lot of talk about excess CO2
(and not without reason), but CO2 is quite natural and humans make it too,
of course. I decided I would try to calculate the CO2 contribution from
human breathing and the result is, I think, at least interesting. If you
think my calculations or facts are off, let me know. I just used figures
that were readily available online.
0.037 grams per breath (http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/pns/faq_othr.html)

16 breaths per minute (http://www.fpnotebook.com/LUN54.htm)

5 billion person increase in world population
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) (since 1800, which was
somewhat of a turning point).

=42,048,000,000,000,000 extra breaths per year.

=1,555,776,000,000,000 extra grams of CO2 per year

=1,555,776,000,000 extra kilograms of CO2 per year

=1,714,949,482 extra tons of CO2 per year

=1.7 billion extra tons of CO2 per year

Nature makes 150 billion tons of CO2, absorbs 154 billion tons. Humans
make 7.1 billion tons http://www.vtearthinstitute.org/carbonwksht.html.
Human excess is therefore 3.1 billion tons. Therefore breathing makes up
55% of the excess CO2 per year (24% of all human emissions)

One may think this argument is silly (and feel free to criticize -
especially if the facts are off. However, if the facts are off, please
cite

[Biofuel] Try This at Home, Part 2

[Keith Addison]

#812 -- Try This at Home, Part 1, March 03, 2005  
http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/45942/



http://www.rachel.org/bulletin/index.cfm?issue_ID=2495

#813 -- Try This at Home, Part 2, March 17, 2005  


(Published April 14, 2005)

By Jane Anne Morris*

Deconstructing "Reform"

In a world where "corporations" can break laws, they can also get 
permits. Most corporate harms to democracy (like other corporate 
harms -- to human rights, the environment, and so on) are perfectly 
legal, because corporations have "permits" to conceal, oppress, and 
pollute, all courtesy of our supposedly democratic government. This 
is because many corporate powers, privileges, and even "rights" rode 
into town as drivers and stowaways on the "reform" bandwagon. Often, 
the "reform" is just another chip off the block of people's 
sovereignty. For instance, the biggest boost corporate campaign 
contributions ever got came from the so-called campaign reform bills 
of the post-Nixon era, which invented and legalized political action 
committees (PACs). This legalization of corporate interference with 
democracy replaced laws like this 1905 Wisconsin law:


"No corporation doing business in this state shall pay or contribute, 
or offer, consent or agree to pay or contribute, directly or 
indirectly, any money, property, free service of its officers or 
employees or thing of value to any political party, organization, 
committee or individual for any political purpose whatsoever, or for 
the purpose of influencing legislation of any kind, or to promote or 
defeat the candidacy of any person for nomination, appointment or 
election to any political office."


State legislators in Wisconsin, under constant pressure from 
corporate lawyers, weakened this law, and then national legislators 
preempted it by legalizing PACs. Yet, when in the 1970s legislators 
tossed this shovelful of sovereignty onto the corporate slag heap, 
the event was commemorated in the democracy theme park's "Reform" 
gallery.


Regulatory agencies have always been part of the corporate elite's 
"War on Democracy," masquerading as reform. State legislatures were 
never models for direct democracy, but for a long time they 
remembered that corporations were only their creations, to remain 
subordinate and follow precise operating instructions.[1] If 
corporate officers disobeyed, state legislatures simply voted to 
eject the corporation (if it was from another state) or dismantle it 
and take over the assets (if it was from the home state). 
Historically, regulatory agencies were designed by corporate lawyers 
to protect large corporations against public uproar, upstart 
competitors, and too- democratic state legislatures. They still do 
all that, plus provide years of character-building experience for 
those entrapped in their procedural mazes. After more than a century 
of failing to "rein in" corporations, they are still among the 
biggest attractions in the democracy theme park.


Antitrust laws provide another example of the "reforms" that shelved 
indirect democratic control of corporations and replaced it with 
feeble regulations. Until the 1880s, all states prohibited 
"corporations" from owning stock in other corporations. Most 
discussions of antitrust are superfluous and unnecessary when such 
prohibitions are in place. Under pressure from powerful corporate 
executives, state legislators removed these laws from the books, so 
that by the early twentieth century none remained.


Demanding transparency from government and its agencies is basic to 
self-governing. If you don't know what your government is doing, you 
don't live in a democracy. Current law requires corporate officers to 
reveal very little about their operations to the public, despite the 
fact that corporations are brought into existence through corporate 
charters granted by state legislatures. Disclosure laws that fall 
short of transparency are not "reforms," they are obfuscations. From 
its first year of statehood, Wisconsin required that all vaults, 
books, safes, books, and documents that pertained to a corporation's 
affairs and condition be open for inspection by the state that 
created it. Laws like this were typical and stayed on the books well 
into the twentieth century when people started believing that the 
abstract legal fiction of the corporation had "rights." Today, no 
proposed "reform" comes even close to the degree of disclosure once 
taken for granted.


The idea that a corporation can be "bad" leads quickly to the 
"reform" idea that it must be "punished." The mirage that 
corporations can be punished works against democracy by deflecting 
sanctions away from a controlling elite. The recent tobacco 
settlement is a case in point. For decades tobacco corporation 
executives.and their predecessors made billions of dollars in profits 
by knowingly marketing an addictive carcinogen as a fashion 
accessory. Not a penny of the over $200 billion in fines will be paid 

Re: [Biofuel] US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet

[John Hayes]

One may think this argument is silly (and feel free to criticize -
especially if the facts are off. However, if the facts are off, please
cite sources for correct facts!) However, this leads me to think that
since so much CO2 production is unavoidable (breathing is a right:-)),
maybe we should focus on increasing CO2 absorption instead of decreasing
output. 



Michael.

The problem isn't with your calculations. Instead, I think the problem 
occurs because you haven't distinguished between carbon that way already 
part of the carbon cycle, and carbon that was sequestered underground 
for millions of years.


That is, the problem with carbon emissions isn't the total amount 
emitted, but rather the amount of additional carbon introduced into the 
system every year.


jh
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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[Keith Addison]

You got attacked the other day for a critique of the source rather 
than the content, but I really disagree with that. The source is not 
always relevant, but it's certainly relevant sometimes, and it's 
worth pointing out this time, thanks.


We reach similar conclusions - I don't think it's very likely either, 
but it would be good to see some tests. Preferably a dynamometer, 
sure, but if someone here did it and watched their mileage for a few 
tanks that would be interesting.


Best wishes

Keith


1. Spark ignition internal combustion engines have been around for 
about a century now right?  And folks have been burning anything and 
everything that will flow thru a tube.  I can't imagine that others 
haven't tried all sorts of mixtures already.  also, more mileage is 
achieved by getting more energy out of your fuel.  This would 
suggest that a significant amount of fuel is not burning, thus going 
out the tail pipe. Uncombusted hydrocarbons are easily measured in 
tailpipe emissions, and don't add up to the energy losses which must 
be occurring if acetone is to help that much.


2. again consider the source:

 http://pureenergysystems.com/

is one of the sources touting the efficacy of acetone/gasoline. 
also on the site are magnetic motors,


"Mann was hoping to come upon a way to use the entire magnetic force 
for motive power. However, this present design requires at least 
half of the magnet power to be used to counter-act one magnet with 
another, the remaining is tappable for power. He doesn't think more 
than that can be tapped. Perhaps someone will show him wrong 
someday, even as he is showing the present models of physics to be 
incorrect."




and overunity devices:

" He reports a 30 to 1 overunity ratio with piezoelectric 
sonoluminescence. The higher the power you put in, the more you get 
out."




if just one of these guys ever started selling power to the grid, I 
would believe it.  I know this has nothing to do with 
acetone/gasoline but everything to do with credibility.



3. gasoline has a very low surface tension, and I doubt that acetone 
will lower it any significant amount.


4. the fuel value and vapor pressure of acetone are both lower than gasoline.

5. I have seen no supporting evidence other than relatively 
uncontrolled tests by individuals sticking it in and watching their 
mileage for a few tanks.  Ie, I an not swayed by the testing so far.



Disclaimer:  if somebody proves me wrong by reproducible testing on 
a dynamometer, I will do everything I can to promote its use. In 
fact I really do believe that people would pay for a fuel mixture 
which provided 30% better millage.   This could reduce  oil imports 
to the usa by millions of barrels per day, reduce carbon emissions 
by the megaton, etc.  Hell, in a country that cared, ie just about 
anywhere but the us, use of acetone would suffice to meet kyoto 
agreement goals.  You would think that somebody would have tested 
and published.  an hour or two on a test engine with proper controls 
should yield an answer. Any automotive engineering students out 
their?  You can be famous overnight!




but I really just don't think so.




Keith Addison wrote:



Why don't you tell us why you doubt it Bob? I'm sure that would be 
appreciated.




--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman


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[Biofuel] Re: Diesel from wood/biomass

[Keith Addison]

Hi,

The readers of both lists might be interested in this (which I don't 
think  I'd seen until I read an article in the FAZ this morning:


http://www.faz.net/s/Rub9E75B460C0744F8695B3E0BE5A30A620/Doc~E8F0A714 
4F0C349C8B1D941C61809617E~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html


Choren has got a process running which extracts biodiesel (well, "a 
biodiesel-type fuel") directly from woody biomass.


Thanks,


Sam


We've had quite a lot about it, and quite a lot more about the 
Fischer-Tropsch process in general. These are about Choren:


http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/26862/
2003-08-03
World's First CO2-neutral Designer Diesel Fuel Presented

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/32898/
2004-03-18
Re: [biofuel] Sunoil better than biodiesel

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/45417/
2005-03-31
DaimlerChrysler emphasizes synthetic diesel commitment

And this is a critique of at least some applications of it posted 
yesterday (there are other critiques in the list archives):


http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/46042/
2005-04-15
Plan to Turn Garbage into Oil

"The dawn of a new era for automotove fuels"? The Fischer-Tropsch 
process converts synthesis gas to oxycarbon alcohols or into synfuel 
hydrocarbons (syn-gasoline, diesel, jet fuel), first made by coal 
gasification processes. It's not exactly new. It was invented in 1917 
by German synthetic fuels scientists and used by Hitler to provide 
fuel for the Nazis in WW2.


This is from an earlier post (14 Nov 2002):

"One of our oldest scientists, now 84 yrs. old, was responsible for 
going into Germany post WWII and uncovering the remains of Hitler's 
synthetic fuels machine which had been bombed out. I'm speaking of 
Fischer-Tropsch oily-based paraffins which are hydrocracked down 
into shorter chains for synthetic gasoline, jet fuel and diesel. He 
brought back some of the original German scientists who'd perfected 
this technology which utilized coarse, low-grade brown German coal 
as feedstock. Three times he tried to start-up an American version 
of synthetic hydrocarbon fuels in the GTL arena and was blocked. As 
the highest ranking American energy technologist post WWII, he 
couldn't figure this out. It was over 20 years later that he 
realized that the late John Rockefeller of Standard Oil [Exxon] had 
been the politic behind the scenes, making sure that his new, 
alternative fuel ideas did not materialize. This scientist then took 
his blueprints for the first major GTL project and gave them to 
Sasol who built his first coal gasification device back in 1953 and 
it is still operating today. Sasol from South Africa is the oldest 
synthetic fuels producer globally."


And here's a more recent message about what Sasol achieved with it:

http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/45491/
2005-04-01
Re: [Biofuel] when will it run out

As for woody biomass, that can also produce syngas, or producer gas - 
in fact all you need is the wood, not $400 million or something for a 
Fischer-Tropsch plant: See: Wood gas:

http://journeytoforever.org/at_woodfire.html#woodgas

"Nothing new under the sun" - including Sundiesel.

Best wishes

Keith

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Re: [Biofuel] Diesel from wood/biomass

[Pannir P.V]

 Very interesting  biomass project which has geen future ./
Biomass  production  can create  rural jobs 


sd
Pannir 

On 4/15/05, Sam Critchley <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> The readers of both lists might be interested in this (which I don't think
> I'd seen until I read an article in the FAZ this morning:
> 
> http://www.faz.net/s/Rub9E75B460C0744F8695B3E0BE5A30A620/Doc~E8F0A7144F0C349C8B1D941C61809617E~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html
> 
> Choren has got a process running which extracts biodiesel (well, "a
> biodiesel-type fuel") directly from woody biomass.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Sam
> 
> --
> Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
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> 
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> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 


-- 
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Universidade Federal do Rio Grande do Norte - UFRN
Departamento de Engenharia Qu’mica - DEQ
Centro de Tecnologia - CT
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Av. Senador Salgado Filho, Campus Universit‡rio
CEP 59.072-970 , Natal/RN - Brasil

Residence :
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Re: [Biofuel] US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet

[Michael Nehring]

Maybe this is slightly off-topic, but I was thinking lately and decided to
do some calculations. Basically, there's a lot of talk about excess CO2
(and not without reason), but CO2 is quite natural and humans make it too,
of course. I decided I would try to calculate the CO2 contribution from
human breathing and the result is, I think, at least interesting. If you
think my calculations or facts are off, let me know. I just used figures
that were readily available online.
0.037 grams per breath (http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/pns/faq_othr.html)

16 breaths per minute (http://www.fpnotebook.com/LUN54.htm)

5 billion person increase in world population
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population) (since 1800, which was
somewhat of a turning point).

=42,048,000,000,000,000 extra breaths per year.

=1,555,776,000,000,000 extra grams of CO2 per year

=1,555,776,000,000 extra kilograms of CO2 per year

=1,714,949,482 extra tons of CO2 per year

=1.7 billion extra tons of CO2 per year

Nature makes 150 billion tons of CO2, absorbs 154 billion tons. Humans
make 7.1 billion tons http://www.vtearthinstitute.org/carbonwksht.html.
Human excess is therefore 3.1 billion tons. Therefore breathing makes up
55% of the excess CO2 per year (24% of all human emissions)



One may think this argument is silly (and feel free to criticize -
especially if the facts are off. However, if the facts are off, please
cite sources for correct facts!) However, this leads me to think that
since so much CO2 production is unavoidable (breathing is a right:-)),
maybe we should focus on increasing CO2 absorption instead of decreasing
output. Any thoughts on why there is so little press/attention for
increasing absorption? I read somewhere (I can't remember where anymore -
if someone else heard of this, maybe you have a source), that increasing
the amount of soil of the roots of trees causes the tree to absorb more
CO2.



Or in the last 50 years, the world lost 1.3 billions acres of rain forest
(http://tropicalhardwoods.com/htm/main/tropical_rainforests.htm). At least
in the north east US, an acre of 125 year old forest absorbs 2 tons of CO2
per year. That's a decrease of 2.6 billion tons per year of absorption,
but I'd imagine more, since the rainforest seems to be a little more
robust than an oldish New England forest (for the non-Americans here, New
England is the name of a group of 5 states in the northeastern USA). So
rainforest destruction alone could account for perhaps the entire excess
of CO2 produced each year.



I've rambled enough. Thoughts? Critiques? Comments?



-Michael

- Original Message -
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:46 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet


> http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0413-22.htm
> Published on Wednesday, April 13, 2005 by the Boston Globe
>
> US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet
>
> by Derrick Z. Jackson
>
> For more than four years, President Bush has told us he needs to see
> the ''sound science" on global warming before joining the rest of the
> world in combating it. In June 2001, he brushed off criticism of his
> pullout from the Kyoto Protocol, saying: ''It was not based upon
> science. The stated mandates in the Kyoto treaty would affect our
> economy in a negative way."
>
> A year later, Bush's own Environmental Protection Agency put out a
> report that the burning of fossil fuels in the human activities of
> industry and automobiles are huge contributors to the greenhouse
> effect. He publicly trashed the report, embarrassing then-EPA
> administrator Christine Todd Whitman, saying, ''I read the report put
> out by the bureaucracy."
>
> Now comes a new study, by a bureaucracy representing just about the
> whole planet. It is the Millennium Ecosystem Assessment, commissioned
> by the United Nations in 2000 at a cost of $24 million and compiled
> by 1,360 experts from 95 countries. It is the latest in dire reports
> as to how we are doing the planet in and, implicitly, how the United
> States puts its interests and pollution over the welfare of the rest
> of the planet.
>
> The report said human beings, whose numbers have doubled to 6
> billion, have changed the world's ecosystems more in the last 50
> years than in any other period in our pursuit of food, fuel, water,
> and wood products. More land was converted to agriculture since World
> War II than in the 18th and 19th centuries combined.
>
> Those conversions, aggravated by the use of synthetic nitrogen
> fertilizers, have led to 10 to 30 percent of mammal, bird, and
> amphibian species facing the threat of extinction. Highlights of what
> we have already lost in the last 50 years include: 20 percent of the
> world's coral reefs, with another 20 percent seriously degraded, and
> 35 percent of the world's mangroves.
>
> The dilemma is that many of the changes in agricultural, fishing, and
> industrial technology have had incredible bene

[Biofuel] Diesel from wood/biomass

[Sam Critchley]

Hi,

The readers of both lists might be interested in this (which I don't think  
I'd seen until I read an article in the FAZ this morning:


http://www.faz.net/s/Rub9E75B460C0744F8695B3E0BE5A30A620/Doc~E8F0A7144F0C349C8B1D941C61809617E~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

Choren has got a process running which extracts biodiesel (well, "a  
biodiesel-type fuel") directly from woody biomass.


Thanks,


Sam


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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[bob allen]

post: the vapor pressure of acetone is greater than that of gasoline.
(not that it matters really)

--
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http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[bob allen]

a century now right?  And folks have been burning anything and 
everything that will flow thru a tube.  I can't imagine that others 
haven't tried all sorts of mixtures already.  also, more mileage is 
achieved by getting more energy out of your fuel.  This would suggest 
that a significant amount of fuel is not burning, thus going out the 
tail pipe. Uncombusted hydrocarbons are easily measured in tailpipe 
emissions, and don't add up to the energy losses which must be occurring 
if acetone is to help that much.


2. again consider the source:

  http://pureenergysystems.com/

is one of the sources touting the efficacy of acetone/gasoline.  also on 
the site are magnetic motors,


"Mann was hoping to come upon a way to use the entire magnetic force for 
motive power. However, this present design requires at least half of the 
magnet power to be used to counter-act one magnet with another, the 
remaining is tappable for power. He doesn't think more than that can be 
tapped. Perhaps someone will show him wrong someday, even as he is 
showing the present models of physics to be incorrect."




and overunity devices:

" He reports a 30 to 1 overunity ratio with piezoelectric 
sonoluminescence. The higher the power you put in, the more you get out."




if just one of these guys ever started selling power to the grid, I 
would believe it.  I know this has nothing to do with acetone/gasoline 
but everything to do with credibility.



3. gasoline has a very low surface tension, and I doubt that acetone 
will lower it any significant amount.


4. the fuel value and vapor pressure of acetone are both lower than 
gasoline.


5. I have seen no supporting evidence other than relatively uncontrolled 
tests by individuals sticking it in and watching their mileage for a few 
tanks.  Ie, I an not swayed by the testing so far.



Disclaimer:  if somebody proves me wrong by reproducible testing on a 
dynamometer, I will do everything I can to promote its use. In fact I 
really do believe that people would pay for a fuel mixture which 
provided 30% better millage.   This could reduce  oil imports to the usa 
by millions of barrels per day, reduce carbon emissions by the megaton, 
etc.  Hell, in a country that cared, ie just about anywhere but the us, 
use of acetone would suffice to meet kyoto agreement goals.  You would 
think that somebody would have tested and published.  an hour or two on 
a test engine with proper controls should yield an answer. Any 
automotive engineering students out their?  You can be famous overnight!




but I really just don't think so.




Keith Addison wrote:



Why don't you tell us why you doubt it Bob? I'm sure that would be 
appreciated.




--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[MH]

 Whether we walk, pedal, moped, motorcycle,
 drive a light duty vehicle such as a car,
 SUV, pickup or van our chances of survival
 from a collision with a 100,000 pound
 semi truck and trailer rig rolling
 down the road don't seem particularly
 good and less so at a railroad crossing.
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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[fox mulder]

 --- 1 palm <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: 
> Hello members,
>  
> The acetone post is very interesting. will it harm
> catalytic converter ,oxygen sensor and fuel
> injection system?
>  
> oilpalm1
> 
> "subramanian D.V" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello members,
> 
> The information below came in one of the Emails. 
> 
> >>>http://pesn.com/2005/03/ 17/6900069_Acetone/ 
> 
> >Acetone In Fuel Said to Increase Mileage 15-35%
> 
> >Readily-available chemical added to gas tank in
> small proportion improves the fuel's ability to
> vaporize completely by eliminating the surface
> tension that causes some particulates to note fully
> vaporize. 
> 
> >by Louis LaPointe Adapted by Sterling D. Allan with
> LaPoint's permission for Pure >Energy Systems News
> 
> >Acetone (CH3COCH3), also called dimethylketone or
> propanone, is a product that >can be purchased
> inexpensively in most locations around the world,
> such as in the >common hardware store. Added to the
> fuel tank in tiny amounts, it aids in the
> >vaporization of the gasoline or diesel, increasing
> fuel efficiency, engine longevity, >and performance
> -- as well as reducing hydrocarbon emissions
> 
> > How Much to Use
> 
> >Add in tiny amounts from about one part per 5000 to
> one part per 500, depending on the vehicle -- just a
> few ounces per ten gallons of gas than demand·.
> 
> > I have never seen a problem with acetone, and I
> have used ACETONE in gasoline and diesel fuel and in
> jet fuel >(JP-4) for 50 years.
> 
> > See also
> 
> >Acetone as a Fuel Additive (index at PESWiki) Fuel
> 
> The qty of acetone to be mixed with petrol works out
> 2cc to 20 cc per 10 litres of petrol. The PESWiki
> link mentioned does not give any guidance about the
> mixing ratio. I am about to try this on our family
> car . Acetone is available in the local chemicals
> market in 2 qualities-- commercial quality at the
> lower price equivalent of 2 U.S.dollars a litre and
> the one for laboratory use at 6 dollars a litre. 
> 
> Could any of the members of this forum tell me the
> difference between commercial quality and laboratory
> quality acetone? Does the ratio mentioned above for
> mixing with gasoline apply to commercial or lab
> quality acetone?
> 
> Anybody else had the same positive result ?
> 
> Regards,
> 
> D.V.Subramanian.
> 
> Chennai, India . 

No acetone is very volatile. It will vaporize before
it gets to catalytic converter. People pour it on
their nails t remove nail varnish. It should not harm
anything

fox> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -
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> mobile phone.
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Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[Appal Energy]

because i can drive like a reasonable adult and i know the limits of my
SUV.


That's what everyone says. But the death tolls keep climbing. There must be
an error in that sort of logic somewhere or there would be far fewer grave
markers.


yea yea i know you all hate my guts now (LOL


Sorry. (Although I don't know why an apology would be in order.) You don't
"know" any such thing. Maybe your thought processes are partially out of
joint. Maybe your predilection with self-indulgence is a bit disconcerting.
But it takes a grand bit more to generate "hate." Chances are after two
beers have started to liberate some of those thought processes of your's I'd
move to another seat at the pub. But that's about where it stops.


 i also own a VW golf for the solo runs or anytime i dont need the
mototring mamoth. ever try to park one of those things sheesh!!! (both my
cars have WVO systems and i start and stop on bio D 100) not because i
wanna save this or help that. its just fun to make the stuff.


A fair number of "ammended remarks" remarks in this post. If your previous
post were left to stand on its own merits, it wouldn't. And in large part
the portions you've left unaddressed or "rationalized" away with "feeling"
still don't.


i had a limitor installed (65 mph) max


Uh-huh... :-). Patch job at best. What about fixing the factory linkage
that runs from your foot to your brain?

Ever wonder what might happen if you were thirty miles from nowhere and had
to get an accident victim to the hospital before he or she bled to death?
Let me guess..., there's an override on it. :-)

Todd Swearingen



- Original Message - 
From: "Craig Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing


Snip.

 > I know my family is much safer in my 3/4 ton
 > trucks, than my Geo Metro!  Because I see the
 > accidents first hand, frequently.  I can safely say
 > THE BIG VEHICLE ALWAYS WINS!

 Again, horse crap. A car is only as safe as the driver. And what you
profess
 to witness "first hand" is not anyone "win[ning]." It's everyone losing
in
 situations with probably dozens of contributing factors, inclusive of
people
 thinking they're invincible because their truck is bigger than everyone
 elses, so they don't have to pay attention to common safety practices. A
 large vehicle makes nothing safer and to a very large degree makes
nothing
 necessarily more survivable.

 Compared the number of rollover deaths in Mini Coopers to SUVs lately?
 Thought not.

Huge freaking Snip (LOL)

the first statement is fair enuff i realy dont have the facts to tell
wether or not my family is more or less safe in a huge honking SUV. the
fact is i "FEEL" that they are because i can drive like a reasonable adult
and i know the limits of my SUV. (2002 Ford Excursion) yea yea i know you
all hate my guts now (LOL). but take for example the news story i saw
tonight.a lady was driveing the same SUV that i own and she ran smack into
the rear end of a semi doing 80 mph while drinking on a residential
street. she didnt make it and the semi driver still got hurt.(it was an 18
wheeler and he was pretty jacked up).
to make a point here bigger is safer when you cant controll the idiots
around you up to i would say 35-45mph anything over that and all that
metal thats "keeping you safe" is going to become the debris thats ripping
you in half, or more mess the jaws of life have to cut through while your
slowling bleeding to death.

personal note: i do not own a cell phone and i will never put an
entertainment center in my auto. i pay attention when im driveing i use
both hands to steer and i added a detection system to the bumpers and side
guards. i had a limitor installed (65 mph) max (the local freeway speed
limit) i also own a VW golf for the solo runs or anytime i dont need the
mototring mamoth. ever try to park one of those things sheesh!!! (both my
cars have WVO systems and i start and stop on bio D 100) not because i
wanna save this or help that. its just fun to make the stuff.

oh and todd in auto safety arguments allways go with the volvo LOL.

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[Biofuel] Fwd: Re: bioenergy from a C mass balance perspective

[Keith Addison]

Discussion Group (SANET). - Keith



Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:38:36 -0400
From: Frank Teuton <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: bioenergy from a C mass balance perspective
To:   [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Hi Joel, and others following this thread,

I'd like to take a stab at this, if I might. It seems like what you are
saying is, that in any given ecosystem the potential to conserve C is such
that additional increments of C will at some point not be conserved, when a
saturation point is achieved. Presumably this applies to relatively aerated
solid state soil ecosystems, as peat bogs for example seem to just keep on
salting away the C...

So a hardwood forest managed for biomass (and perhaps lumber) would keep on
producing a surplus while having optimized (maximized?) soil C sequestration
(abbreviate to C-questration? ;-); since no tillage is involved, the basic
system remains intact, needing only good management and well designed and
used harvesting methods to continue on indefinitely. Variations are
available such as coppicing, particular cultivars, etc.

OK, now on to the meat of the matter, typical agricultural soils, such as
might be used for growing corn, soybeans, etc. In times gone by, of course,
farms grew most of their own energy in the form of hay and pasture,
capturing this energy for use by animal traction, horses and oxen.  The
waste products of such biological internal combustion were known for their
fertilizer value, and the horses could often be pleasant companions and make
baby horses...they could also kick like the devil, eh? ;-)

That diversified, animal powered farm could serve as a benchmark for energy
efficiency and sustainability. Modern technology such as wind and solar (in
new, more efficient forms) could be added, as well as improved insulation in
the housing and farm buildings, etc. But, as a basic horse and buggy
benchmark of how sustainable could be done, it is worth bouncing some
numbers off of, don't you think? However, such farms didn't sell that much
energy back to the rest of society...or did they? When horses were the
ticket, wasn't the hay farm-grown and sold to the non farm horse users?

In any case, the diversified farm of old can be a baseline, and the
usefulness of hay and pasture crops means we can include them in long term
rotations to help restore soil C, as well as fueling our energy
beings...;-)(insert lowing, neighing and donkey braying here for sound
effects.)

Well, that was the 19th century, before the great oil boom. Now, as we head
to the finish line of the great fossil fuels carbon blowout sale, the
question of what's next rears its head---what will a sustainable world
energy system look like, and how will agriculture be adapted to it? Can we
grow and harvest biomass for energy, how much, and what are the most
sustainable ways to do it? Obviously the answer is yes, we've already done
it with the baseline diversified farm, hay and pasture for our horses, oxen,
etc, firewood for our hearths, and so forth...can we upgrade this to
cleaner, higher production energy while achieving optimal C levels in the
soil? What crops and methods should we focus on, which new practices adopt,
and which old practices modify or abandon?

If we can choose between a system that averages steady state 3% SOM and is
productive, how much productivity should we sacrifice to get to a 6% SOM
level, or more? How much is that C-questration really worth? Or, do we
really need to sacrifice anything? If we can find a way to rely mostly on
perennial crops, such as the traditional woodlot, hay and pasture, or the
'holy grail' of Wes Jackson's New Roots for Agriculture research, perennial
seed and grain crops, then SOM will arguably take care of itself.

If we can reduce reliance on annual crops that require tillage (or
herbicides) and only operate within shortened time frames of the potential
growing season, it seems logical to me that we can optimize C capture
generally, and C-quester it in the perennial soil system, in plant material
(eg wood), or use it for bioenergy.

That would still leave us with the question of how to manage the remaining
acreage of annual crops, and here I eagerly await Joel's comments on the
relative merits of composting versus other methods of returning organic
residues to the soil.

Frank Teuton



-Original Message-
From: Sustainable Agriculture Network Discussion Group
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joel Gruver
Sent: 11 avril 2005 15:20
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [SANET-MG] bioenergy from a C mass balance perspective

Hello folks,

As we discuss the impacts of using crop residues or other organic materials
for energy purposes (as compared to soil amendment), it is important to
evaluate possible scenarios from a C mass balance perspective.

The functional benefits of SOM (nutrient storage, structural stabilization,
water holding capacity, nourishing of soil organisms...) are well documented
and widely appreciated... in contras

RE: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[Steve Hess]

I doubt the independent retailers know about, or care about fuel
efficiency

steve

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
Behalf Of bob allen
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:00 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%


there are a lot of independent retailers out there who would love to 
sell more gas if they could advertise it as providing 30 % better 
mileage.  They could even a couple of cents to the price and be ahead on

cost/distance.


enny Dunn wrote:
> Except that the petro industry doesn't really have any interest in you

> getting better mileage.  They certainly aren't telling us any ways to 
> send them less money.
> 
> $.02,
> Ken
> 
> Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
> 
> 
>>You're making sense Bob.
> 
> 
>>bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>if it really worked, which I highly doubt, don't you think somebody
>>would be blending and selling the mix already?
> 
> 
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> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" - Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[Keith Addison]

Mike

bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
if it really worked, which I highly doubt, don't you think somebody
would be blending and selling the mix already?


Why don't you tell us why you doubt it Bob? I'm sure that would be appreciated.

I'm afraid I have no such faith in the magic of the marketplace or 
whatever, if it worked "they" would be doing it already. Maybe, maybe 
not, and since discussion of it so far hasn't quite ruled out that it 
might work (yet), it's good to see someone here setting out to test 
it, as D.V. Subramanian plans to do in Chennai:


http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/46029/
Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

I hope D.V. keeps us informed, then we'll know. If it does work at 
all, then 1 palm's questions are good ones.


Regards

Keith



1 palm wrote:
> Hello members,
>
> The acetone post is very interesting. will it harm catalytic 
converter ,oxygen sensor and fuel injection system?




--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman


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re: [Biofuel] Article from deseretnews.com

[DHAJOGLO]

>NOTE FROM SENDER: This news is somewhat troublesome ... we'll have to see how 
>far the government goes with this, but it's scary (VERY scary) to think that 
>instead of using the current oil situation to start moving beyond dependence 
>on fossil fuels and developing renewables, the government is hungrily looking 
>for more oil reserves 
>
>tam
>
>VAST 'OIL' RESERVES IN UTAH MAY TEMPT FEDS TO HELP OUT
>Utah, Colorado and Wyoming sit on a massive fortune in untapped oil -- maybe 
>more oil than in the Middle East -- if they could just figure out a way to 
>harvest it.
>FULL STORY: http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/1%2C1249%2C600125803%2C00.html

Just a little insight into this area.  I was born and raised in Grand Junction. 
 I remember after the oil shocks of the 70s this area was a boom for Oil Shale 
research and potential extraction. However, when the oil prices dropped back 
down interest fell and the oil companies fled leaving the region in a very 
depressed state.  I think the extraction process comes out with a very little 
net gain if not a net loss of energy.

The shale deposits are held up in mountains.  In order to extract the oil they 
would basically have to dig up the mountains to process the shale leaving a 
destroyed landscape, devastating the habitat, and creating mining waste that 
would all but kill western Colorado and eastern Utah.

Also, I can recall that the oil companies have a fair estimate of how much oil 
is actually trapped and it is truly a staggering amount.  Looking at this 
article they are obviously holding back the amount of information they really 
have.  

-dave


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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[Michael Redler]

Hi Bob,
 
Everything you're saying sounds very reasonable. But, sometimes the conspiracy 
theorist in me keeps coming out. Do you think that the oil industry has enough 
political horsepower to influence the possibility of this happening -- even if 
it works? Maybe I'm getting ahead of myself and should find out if the idea 
actually works.
 
I'm not trying to sound facetious. These are just a couple of things I'm 
wondering about.
 

Mike

bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
there are a lot of independent retailers out there who would love to 
sell more gas if they could advertise it as providing 30 % better 
mileage. They could even a couple of cents to the price and be ahead on 
cost/distance.


enny Dunn wrote:
> Except that the petro industry doesn't really have any interest in you getting
> better mileage. They certainly aren't telling us any ways to send them less
> money.
> 
> $.02,
> Ken
> 
> Michael Redler said:
> 
> 
>>You're making sense Bob.
> 
> 
>>bob allen wrote:
>>if it really worked, which I highly doubt, don't you think somebody 
>>would be blending and selling the mix already?
> 
> 
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> http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/
> 
> 
> 


-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[bob allen]

sell more gas if they could advertise it as providing 30 % better 
mileage.  They could even a couple of cents to the price and be ahead on 
cost/distance.



enny Dunn wrote:

Except that the petro industry doesn't really have any interest in you getting
better mileage.  They certainly aren't telling us any ways to send them less
money.

$.02,
Ken

Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:



You're making sense Bob.




bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
if it really worked, which I highly doubt, don't you think somebody 
would be blending and selling the mix already?



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--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[Kenny Dunn]

Except that the petro industry doesn't really have any interest in you getting
better mileage.  They certainly aren't telling us any ways to send them less
money.

$.02,
Ken

Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:

> You're making sense Bob.

> bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> if it really worked, which I highly doubt, don't you think somebody 
> would be blending and selling the mix already?

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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[Michael Redler]

You're making sense Bob.
 
Mike

bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
if it really worked, which I highly doubt, don't you think somebody 
would be blending and selling the mix already?

1 palm wrote:
> Hello members,
> 
> The acetone post is very interesting. will it harm catalytic converter 
> ,oxygen sensor and fuel injection system?



-- 
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[Michael Redler]

"I see the accidents first hand"
 
It seems that you've witnessed some pretty bad ones. How many of them involved 
an SUV/Truck vs. a Geo Metro (or equivalent)?
 
There's a saying; "it's often not the crash that kills ya, it's the sudden 
stop". The one thing that measures the human loss of a traffic accident in 
simplest terms is Force=Mass x Acceleration or F=ma. At the risk of sounding 
like "Dr. Science", I wanted to mention this really simple equation to make a 
point.
 
Buying a larger, more rigid vehicle improves your "a" in the equation at the 
expense of someone else's. So, unless you have a more utilitarian reason for 
owning an SUV or truck, I don't agree with the wisdom of buying such a vehicle.
 
...my two cents.
 
By the way: "...in auto safety arguments always go with the Volvo" -- I agree.
 
Mike

"J.L.Burney" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

- Original Message - 
From: "Craig Harris" 
To: 
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing


Snip.

> I know my family is much safer in my 3/4 ton
> trucks, than my Geo Metro! Because I see the
> accidents first hand, frequently. I can safely say
> THE BIG VEHICLE ALWAYS WINS!

Again, horse crap. A car is only as safe as the driver. And what you 
profess
to witness "first hand" is not anyone "win[ning]." It's everyone losing in
situations with probably dozens of contributing factors, inclusive of 
people
thinking they're invincible because their truck is bigger than everyone
elses, so they don't have to pay attention to common safety practices. A
large vehicle makes nothing safer and to a very large degree makes nothing
necessarily more survivable.

Compared the number of rollover deaths in Mini Coopers to SUVs lately?
Thought not.

Huge freaking Snip (LOL)

the first statement is fair enuff i realy dont have the facts to tell wether 
or not my family is more or less safe in a huge honking SUV. the fact is i 
"FEEL" that they are because i can drive like a reasonable adult and i know 
the limits of my SUV. (2002 Ford Excursion) yea yea i know you all hate my 
guts now (LOL). but take for example the news story i saw tonight.a lady was 
driveing the same SUV that i own and she ran smack into the rear end of a 
semi doing 80 mph while drinking on a residential street. she didnt make it 
and the semi driver still got hurt.(it was an 18 wheeler and he was pretty 
jacked up).
to make a point here bigger is safer when you cant controll the idiots 
around you up to i would say 35-45mph anything over that and all that metal 
thats "keeping you safe" is going to become the debris thats ripping you in 
half, or more mess the jaws of life have to cut through while your slowling 
bleeding to death.

personal note: i do not own a cell phone and i will never put an 
entertainment center in my auto. i pay attention when im driveing i use both 
hands to steer and i added a detection system to the bumpers and side 
guards. i had a limitor installed (65 mph) max (the local freeway speed 
limit) i also own a VW golf for the solo runs or anytime i dont need the 
mototring mamoth. ever try to park one of those things sheesh!!! (both my 
cars have WVO systems and i start and stop on bio D 100) not because i wanna 
save this or help that. its just fun to make the stuff.

oh and todd in auto safety arguments allways go with the volvo LOL.

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Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[bob allen]

would be blending and selling the mix already?

1 palm wrote:

Hello members,
 
The acetone post is very interesting. will it harm catalytic converter ,oxygen sensor and fuel injection system?




--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl questions and a few other questions

[bob allen]

hygroscopic. Although it really doesn't matter.  All it is used for is 
acting as a cosolvent to keep the WVO and titrant miscible.



http://www.coleparmer.com/catalog/product_view.asp?referred_id=778&sku=8814967


If HEET is isopropanol it would have to be anhydrous or it would not be 
miscible with gasoline.




TLC Orchids and Such wrote:

There is no such thing as 100% isopropyl.
95% is the highest concentration you can get. If you were able to get 100%
it would be 95% as soon as you open the bottle. It absorbs moisture from the
air.

Jeremy




The esteemed Theo wrote:




Hi everyone,

Anyways I'm having trouble locating 100%
isopropyl alcohol.


Isopropyl alcohol for titration is HEET in the red bottle at the auto


parts


store.   Not much there, but enough for titration.

snip



And lastly I found a chemical company who will sell me a 55 gallon
drum of methanol for $2.60 a gallon.  >


2.60/gal is $143 for a 55 gal drum.  That is a much better price than I
paid.   Sorry, no help with the lye.



Thanks again everyone,
Theo Chadzichristos


Chris K
Cayce, SC


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--
Bob Allen
http://ozarker.org/bob

"Science is what we have learned about how to keep
from fooling ourselves" — Richard Feynman
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Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[J.L.Burney]

- Original Message - 
From: "Craig Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing


Snip.

 > I know my family is much safer in my 3/4 ton
 > trucks, than my Geo Metro!  Because I see the
 > accidents first hand, frequently.  I can safely say
 > THE BIG VEHICLE ALWAYS WINS!

 Again, horse crap. A car is only as safe as the driver. And what you 
profess

 to witness "first hand" is not anyone "win[ning]." It's everyone losing in
 situations with probably dozens of contributing factors, inclusive of 
people

 thinking they're invincible because their truck is bigger than everyone
 elses, so they don't have to pay attention to common safety practices. A
 large vehicle makes nothing safer and to a very large degree makes nothing
 necessarily more survivable.

 Compared the number of rollover deaths in Mini Coopers to SUVs lately?
 Thought not.

Huge freaking Snip (LOL)

the first statement is fair enuff i realy dont have the facts to tell wether 
or not my family is more or less safe in a huge honking SUV. the fact is i 
"FEEL" that they are because i can drive like a reasonable adult and i know 
the limits of my SUV. (2002 Ford Excursion) yea yea i know you all hate my 
guts now (LOL). but take for example the news story i saw tonight.a lady was 
driveing the same SUV that i own and she ran smack into the rear end of a 
semi doing 80 mph while drinking on a residential street. she didnt make it 
and the semi driver still got hurt.(it was an 18 wheeler and he was pretty 
jacked up).
to make a point here bigger is safer when you cant controll the idiots 
around you up to i would say 35-45mph anything over that and all that metal 
thats "keeping you safe" is going to become the debris thats ripping you in 
half, or more mess the jaws of life have to cut through while your slowling 
bleeding to death.


personal note: i do not own a cell phone and i will never put an 
entertainment center in my auto. i pay attention when im driveing i use both 
hands to steer and i added a detection system to the bumpers and side 
guards. i had a limitor installed (65 mph) max (the local freeway speed 
limit) i also own a VW golf for the solo runs or anytime i dont need the 
mototring mamoth. ever try to park one of those things sheesh!!! (both my 
cars have WVO systems and i start and stop on bio D 100) not because i wanna 
save this or help that. its just fun to make the stuff.


oh and todd in auto safety arguments allways go with the volvo LOL.

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Re: [Biofuel] US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet

[JD2005]

- Original Message -
From: Keith Addison
Subject: [Biofuel] US Takes the Lead in Trashing Planet

If the American people vito bush and decide go green you would have a best
case scenario rather than one of the worst case scenarios on the planet.


JD2005


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RE: [Biofuel] biofuel, waste engine oil

[malcolm maclure]

I take all my used oil, be it engine, or transmission oil to our local dump,
now renamed "recycling centre" lol, well it's a step in the right direction
I guess. They have a large tank & you just pour it in. It's then reprocessed
to be used again - a far better more efficient & environmental approach to
what is a finite resource, better I think than burning it.

Malcolm



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf
Of stephan torak
Sent: 15 April 2005 09:39
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; stephan torak
Subject: [Biofuel] biofuel, waste engine oil

Hello everyone!

Finding a good use for used engine oil, has been on my mind for a while, 
I came across this revolting (sorry) bit of info that someone posted on 
ebay as he was selling his Mercedes. He had apparently fueled it 
"occasionally" with filtered waste motoroil, which he had obtained free, 
or so he claimed, from service stations.The poor thing wouldn't go 
faster  than 60 mph when fed this gourmet fuel

I've been part of "our forum" now for a while, and surprisingly the 
subject hasn't come up so I've checked around, and there is an 
interesting piece of machinery
www.clarustechnologies.com/manufacturing_services/oilcat/index.html
this item apparently filters wasteoil and mixes it a preset low 
percentage in with  the fuel, supposedly with no ill effects. Seems like 
a good idea to me except for the price of course, any comments or 
ideas.(Ihope the link works)



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Re: [Biofuel] The Next Oil War?

[JD2005]

From: Keith Addison
> The Next Oil War?
. China, driven by its rising internal demand for
> oil supplies, now looks at Taiwan not only as an nationalist issue,
> but as as a strategic necessity. Effective possession of Taiwan would
> help secure 80 percent of Chinese oil supply routes.

I though they just signed some big business aqgreement with India (unlike MG
Rover who they've just left high and dry in some possible agreement with
Shanghi Automotive)?

JD2005


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Re: [Biofuel] biofuel, waste engine oil

[Patrick Campbell]

Hello everyone!

Finding a good use for used engine oil, has been on my mind for a while, I 
came across this revolting (sorry) bit of info that someone posted on ebay as 
he was selling his Mercedes.


I know that people put  1 quart per tank into their truck as a means of 
disposing of their used engine oil ;)


--
Patrick Campbell


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Re: [Biofuel] biofuel, waste engine oil

[Jan Warnqvist]

No, no,no.
First of all: Engine oil and especially used engine oil is not formulated to
combust in an ordinary diesel engine.
Secondly: Engine oil contains lots of additives to improve its properties,
but these are there to help the oil lubricate. Some of these additives
contain metals which are dangerous both from environmental and health point
of view and not in the least to the engine itself.
Third: A good base oil consists from long hydrocarbon chains, which are not
easily combusted. These chains may leave deposits inside the engine. These
deposits may be harmful to the function of the engine.
The best way of dealing with used engine oil, is to burn it in a burner for
high viscosity oils, and then handle the waste ashes in safe way , or just
recycle the oil by cleansing it.

Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message - 
From: "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "stephan torak" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2005 10:38 AM
Subject: [Biofuel] biofuel, waste engine oil


> Hello everyone!
>
> Finding a good use for used engine oil, has been on my mind for a while,
> I came across this revolting (sorry) bit of info that someone posted on
> ebay as he was selling his Mercedes. He had apparently fueled it
> "occasionally" with filtered waste motoroil, which he had obtained free,
> or so he claimed, from service stations.The poor thing wouldn't go
> faster  than 60 mph when fed this gourmet fuel
>
> I've been part of "our forum" now for a while, and surprisingly the
> subject hasn't come up so I've checked around, and there is an
> interesting piece of machinery
> www.clarustechnologies.com/manufacturing_services/oilcat/index.html
> this item apparently filters wasteoil and mixes it a preset low
> percentage in with  the fuel, supposedly with no ill effects. Seems like
> a good idea to me except for the price of course, any comments or
> ideas.(Ihope the link works)
>
>
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[Biofuel] biofuel, waste engine oil

[stephan torak]

Finding a good use for used engine oil, has been on my mind for a while, 
I came across this revolting (sorry) bit of info that someone posted on 
ebay as he was selling his Mercedes. He had apparently fueled it 
"occasionally" with filtered waste motoroil, which he had obtained free, 
or so he claimed, from service stations.The poor thing wouldn't go 
faster  than 60 mph when fed this gourmet fuel


I've been part of "our forum" now for a while, and surprisingly the 
subject hasn't come up so I've checked around, and there is an 
interesting piece of machinery

www.clarustechnologies.com/manufacturing_services/oilcat/index.html
this item apparently filters wasteoil and mixes it a preset low 
percentage in with  the fuel, supposedly with no ill effects. Seems like 
a good idea to me except for the price of course, any comments or 
ideas.(Ihope the link works)



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Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[Appal Energy]

and I make my own biodiesel! Now who is more consevative
a guy that drives 15,000 miles per year in a hybrid or me?


That would largely depend on the same parameters applied to Jay, as they 
would be applied to the hybrid owner.


Needless miles out of that 15,000?
Miles driven without payload or to get one?
How do you dispose of your waste and co-products from making biodiesel?
Is the hybrid diesel? Multi-fuel?

Seems like a lot of people want to crow just because they do one thing 
right.


Not knocking it. One is better than none, for the most part. Just how many 
percentage points do we all get wrong and/or fail to even acknowledge while 
we're puffing out our own chests?


Making your own biodiesel cancels out what? Not buying fair trade coffee? 
Applying 50 pounds of Ortho to your little slice of God's green acre? 
Traveling 75 instead of 55 mph? Running the AC Down to 72* or more? Eating 
globally rather than locally?


Did I forget to ask if the hybrid owner was a "grazer" or a meat eater?

And you would like a definitive decision as to who's more "conservative" 
based upon but one criteria?


Oh, and yes. I own a F-250, 3/4 ton (farm, construction and WVO hauling) as 
well as being custodian of three VW Golf diesels on the mend and just 
reconditioned and rebuilt a fourth. And I have yet to scratch the surface of 
how "conservative" I can still be.


Todd Swearingen


- Original Message - 
From: "Craig Harris" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing


Well I drive a 84 Ford F250 dually with 83,000 miles and I make my own 
biodiesel! Now who is more consevative a guy that drives 15,000 miles per 
year in a hybrid or me?
 - Original Message - 
 From: Appal Energy

 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:11 PM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing


 "Evil?" Who said "evil?"

 Careless. Unaware. Insensitive. Self-centered. Un-informed. Selfish. 
Uh-huh.

 And probably another two dozen similar adjectives.

 > My full size diesel Chevy 4x4 trucks average 20
 > and 24 mpg.

 And just how many of those average 12,000 miles per annum require the use 
of

 a heavy duty farm truck? Half? All? 15%?

 You do the math.

 And then there is the plurality of your remark, as in "trucks," as if you
 can drive more than one at a time? Two vehicles? Why not one full-duty and
 one economy?

 You do the justification.

 > I use bio diesel and pay more for it.
 > Why  To protect the environment.

 Horse crap. All you're doing is soothing your own justifiably guilt-ridden
 conscience. You're still draining enormous resources for your own personal
 gain/pleasure through your largess in choice of vehicles. On top of that 
you

 need to clarify what you mean by "biodiesel." Ask one-hundred people and
 probably ninety-nine would call B-001 "biodiesel" when all it is is
 "adulterated" petroleum fuel. And on top of that there is no such thing as
 carbon neutral biodiesel in the marketplace. Whatever diesel vehicle 
you're
 driving, it isn't exactly "protect[ing] the environment." Maybe not 
damaging

 it to the same percentage as if you used pure petroleum diesel. But
 certainly not the benign, all-encompassing "protect[ing]" that so many
 people think they're doing by making a greener consumer choice.

 Death by close-range scatter gun or death by slow asphyxiation. 
Yippeee

 What a choice. "Protect me!!! Protect me!!!"

 > I know my family is much safer in my 3/4 ton
 > trucks, than my Geo Metro!  Because I see the
 > accidents first hand, frequently.  I can safely say
 > THE BIG VEHICLE ALWAYS WINS!

 Again, horse crap. A car is only as safe as the driver. And what you 
profess

 to witness "first hand" is not anyone "win[ning]." It's everyone losing in
 situations with probably dozens of contributing factors, inclusive of 
people

 thinking they're invincible because their truck is bigger than everyone
 elses, so they don't have to pay attention to common safety practices. A
 large vehicle makes nothing safer and to a very large degree makes nothing
 necessarily more survivable.

 Compared the number of rollover deaths in Mini Coopers to SUVs lately?
 Thought not.

 You're all-encompassing statement wreeks at a level of conscience and
 consciousness and belies the little amount of thought you not only put 
into

 your remarks but your purchases as well.

 > When I talk to other Truck and SUV owners about
 > Bio diesel, they at times blow me off as one of those
 > "Environmental Wackos".

 And when you talk to someone environmentally inclined they probably (and
 rightfully so) blow you off as one of those "folks" who thinks that 
changing

 fuels is somehow a substitute for changing behavior. ("Oh goodee!!! I can
 drive forever and a day without a care in the world now that I use
 biodiesel.}

 You see

Re: [Biofuel] Acetone in fuel increases mileage by 15 -35%

[1 palm]

Hello members,
 
The acetone post is very interesting. will it harm catalytic converter ,oxygen 
sensor and fuel injection system?
 
oilpalm1

"subramanian D.V" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello members,

The information below came in one of the Emails. 

>>>http://pesn.com/2005/03/ 17/6900069_Acetone/ 

>Acetone In Fuel Said to Increase Mileage 15-35%

>Readily-available chemical added to gas tank in small proportion improves the 
>fuel's ability to vaporize completely by eliminating the surface tension that 
>causes some particulates to note fully vaporize. 

>by Louis LaPointe Adapted by Sterling D. Allan with LaPoint's permission for 
>Pure >Energy Systems News

>Acetone (CH3COCH3), also called dimethylketone or propanone, is a product that 
>>can be purchased inexpensively in most locations around the world, such as in 
>the >common hardware store. Added to the fuel tank in tiny amounts, it aids in 
>the >vaporization of the gasoline or diesel, increasing fuel efficiency, 
>engine longevity, >and performance -- as well as reducing hydrocarbon 
>emissions

> How Much to Use

>Add in tiny amounts from about one part per 5000 to one part per 500, 
>depending on the vehicle -- just a few ounces per ten gallons of gas than 
>demand….

> I have never seen a problem with acetone, and I have used ACETONE in gasoline 
> and diesel fuel and in jet fuel >(JP-4) for 50 years.

> See also

>Acetone as a Fuel Additive (index at PESWiki) Fuel

The qty of acetone to be mixed with petrol works out 2cc to 20 cc per 10 litres 
of petrol. The PESWiki link mentioned does not give any guidance about the 
mixing ratio. I am about to try this on our family car . Acetone is available 
in the local chemicals market in 2 qualities-- commercial quality at the lower 
price equivalent of 2 U.S.dollars a litre and the one for laboratory use at 6 
dollars a litre. 

Could any of the members of this forum tell me the difference between 
commercial quality and laboratory quality acetone? Does the ratio mentioned 
above for mixing with gasoline apply to commercial or lab quality acetone?

Anybody else had the same positive result ?

Regards,

D.V.Subramanian.

Chennai, India . 





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Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[Craig Harris]

Well I drive a 84 Ford F250 dually with 83,000 miles and I make my own 
biodiesel! Now who is more consevative a guy that drives 15,000 miles per year 
in a hybrid or me?   
  - Original Message - 
  From: Appal Energy 
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  Sent: Thursday, April 14, 2005 5:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing


  "Evil?" Who said "evil?"

  Careless. Unaware. Insensitive. Self-centered. Un-informed. Selfish. Uh-huh. 
  And probably another two dozen similar adjectives.

  > My full size diesel Chevy 4x4 trucks average 20
  > and 24 mpg.

  And just how many of those average 12,000 miles per annum require the use of 
  a heavy duty farm truck? Half? All? 15%?

  You do the math.

  And then there is the plurality of your remark, as in "trucks," as if you 
  can drive more than one at a time? Two vehicles? Why not one full-duty and 
  one economy?

  You do the justification.

  > I use bio diesel and pay more for it.
  > Why  To protect the environment.

  Horse crap. All you're doing is soothing your own justifiably guilt-ridden 
  conscience. You're still draining enormous resources for your own personal 
  gain/pleasure through your largess in choice of vehicles. On top of that you 
  need to clarify what you mean by "biodiesel." Ask one-hundred people and 
  probably ninety-nine would call B-001 "biodiesel" when all it is is 
  "adulterated" petroleum fuel. And on top of that there is no such thing as 
  carbon neutral biodiesel in the marketplace. Whatever diesel vehicle you're 
  driving, it isn't exactly "protect[ing] the environment." Maybe not damaging 
  it to the same percentage as if you used pure petroleum diesel. But 
  certainly not the benign, all-encompassing "protect[ing]" that so many 
  people think they're doing by making a greener consumer choice.

  Death by close-range scatter gun or death by slow asphyxiation. Yippeee 
  What a choice. "Protect me!!! Protect me!!!"

  > I know my family is much safer in my 3/4 ton
  > trucks, than my Geo Metro!  Because I see the
  > accidents first hand, frequently.  I can safely say
  > THE BIG VEHICLE ALWAYS WINS!

  Again, horse crap. A car is only as safe as the driver. And what you profess 
  to witness "first hand" is not anyone "win[ning]." It's everyone losing in 
  situations with probably dozens of contributing factors, inclusive of people 
  thinking they're invincible because their truck is bigger than everyone 
  elses, so they don't have to pay attention to common safety practices. A 
  large vehicle makes nothing safer and to a very large degree makes nothing 
  necessarily more survivable.

  Compared the number of rollover deaths in Mini Coopers to SUVs lately? 
  Thought not.

  You're all-encompassing statement wreeks at a level of conscience and 
  consciousness and belies the little amount of thought you not only put into 
  your remarks but your purchases as well.

  > When I talk to other Truck and SUV owners about
  > Bio diesel, they at times blow me off as one of those
  > "Environmental Wackos".

  And when you talk to someone environmentally inclined they probably (and 
  rightfully so) blow you off as one of those "folks" who thinks that changing 
  fuels is somehow a substitute for changing behavior. ("Oh goodee!!! I can 
  drive forever and a day without a care in the world now that I use 
  biodiesel.}

  You see, Jay, you're other "Truck and SUV" associates may have it half 
  right - the "Wacko" part, certainly not the eco. But out of deference for 
  the moment? Let's just say that you're either largely mis-informed, 
  under-informed, or just don't get it, before we begin to presume that you 
  just don't care.

  >You know; the ones who hate
  > SUV's and their owners.

  Naw, Jay. We just "hate" ignorance (to know something but disregard or 
  disavow it) and selfishness in lieu of far greater concerns that are going 
  to push everyone over the brink. Oh, when I say everyone? That means 
  you, your family and their progeny too, not just those poor, unlucky 
  bastards that call an ocean atoll their home.

  > Lets quit confirming the belief that "Wacko,
  > Liberal, Environmentalists want to take away the
  > safety and independence that an SUV represents to
  > their owners.

  :-)  Yah. Sure. Just like they want to take away your gun, your right to 
  property, and your pursuit of near beer? How about let's stop planting red 
  herrings and strawmen to blur the transparency of illogical arguments, much 
  less categorizing anyone who thinks differently (as in more completely) from 
  you as someone to be badgered and belittled.

  Oh..., and to revisit

  > safety and independence that an SUV represents to
  > their owners.

  Glad to see that you at least acknowledge (in an unguarded moment?) that all 
  they do is "represent."

  > THERE ARE OPTIONS

  Yes. There are. Using one's

Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl questions and a few other questions

[TLC Orchids and Such]

There is no such thing as 100% isopropyl.
95% is the highest concentration you can get. If you were able to get 100%
it would be 95% as soon as you open the bottle. It absorbs moisture from the
air.

Jeremy


> The esteemed Theo wrote:
>
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > Anyways I'm having trouble locating 100%
> > isopropyl alcohol.
>
> Isopropyl alcohol for titration is HEET in the red bottle at the auto
parts
> store.   Not much there, but enough for titration.
>
> snip
>
> >And lastly I found a chemical company who will sell me a 55 gallon
> > drum of methanol for $2.60 a gallon.  >
>
>  2.60/gal is $143 for a 55 gal drum.  That is a much better price than I
> paid.   Sorry, no help with the lye.
>
> > Thanks again everyone,
> > Theo Chadzichristos
>
> Chris K
> Cayce, SC
>
>
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Re: Fwd: [Biofuel] End of cheap oil is a blessing

[Ken Dunn]

With all due respect, there just isn't any indication that SUVs are any 
safer than small cars.  Also, a lot of people are not very good at 
driving them.  I believe that makes them even less safe.  Furthermore, 
an SUV or large truck only provides the driver a greater chance of 
harming someone in a small car in the event of a collision as opposed to 
providing the SUV occupants any greater safety.  A recent test showed 
that the new VW beetle is one of the safest cars ever built.  SUV's 
certainly feel safer to drive because of their higher vantage point but, 
they also have a higher center of gravity than a sedan.  This obviously 
makes them more prone to rolling over, though.  I wouldn't feel safe 
driving your Geo Metro either.  I've owned one and have driven in 
others.  Frankly, they are poorly built cars.  Moreover, if we all drove 
reasonably sized vehicles, we would all be at the same risk and probably 
drive a bit more defensively (carefully).


Though I applaud you for running biodiesel in your truck, conservation 
is our greatest energy source (stolen and bastardized).  The biodiesel 
have to come from somewhere.  And there are chemicals and energy used in 
that process as well.  I assume you are using commercial biodiesel.  If 
that is the case, that biodiesel is being made out of a feedstock which 
comes from a source that is being grown on land which could better serve 
to feed the hungry or, heaven forbid, return to natural use by an actual 
ecosystem.


Some (myself included) might also be a bit resentful that any Schmoe can 
get an incentive to buy a large vehicle regardless of its use while 
others can't even get a tax break to install solar, wind, or geothermal 
power.  *Some* can get tax relief to go to solar and other energy 
sources but, not I.  Forget about any assistance in taking a risk on a 
new automotive technology that just might help save our planet.  Those 
who have a legitimate need for a large vehicle because of work 
requirements are just fine by me.  The same holds true for those who use 
it to provide their family with necessities such as wood for heating.   
Most are used to take the kids to soccer or drag the jet ski to the lake 
(I better not get started on that one).  I don't know anyone who uses 
all that space in their SUV to carry a large family.  Those large 
families buy passenger vans.


Drive a small car everywhere you go and I'm sure you'll spend more time 
at your destination.  SUVs (and large cars and mini-vans) today have 
more entertainment features than imaginable.  No wonder our communities 
are more splintered than ever!  People spend more time listening to the 
car radio or talking on the cell phone than they do getting to know 
their neighbors.  Families don't talk to one another on car rides any 
more either.  The kids watch the DVD player in the back seat while mom 
and dad sit silently in the front seat.  Even without the DVD player I 
have a hard enough time getting my kids to enjoy the scenery on a drive.


I hope I haven't offended you, I mean no harm.

Take care,
Ken
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Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl questions and a few other questions

[Chris]

Hi everyone,

Anyways I'm having trouble locating 100%
isopropyl alcohol.


Isopropyl alcohol for titration is HEET in the red bottle at the auto parts 
store.   Not much there, but enough for titration.


snip


And lastly I found a chemical company who will sell me a 55 gallon
drum of methanol for $2.60 a gallon.  >


2.60/gal is $143 for a 55 gal drum.  That is a much better price than I 
paid.   Sorry, no help with the lye.



Thanks again everyone,
Theo Chadzichristos


Chris K
Cayce, SC


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