[Biofuel] bubble WASHING and oxidation.
Since I am not a chemist by any means, I was wondering why I should be concerned about oxidation? I could see a problem if I was trying to store the fuel perhaps,but I use up to 50 gal a week. I have only noticed oxidation being a problem in my best tequila after many months if I don't drink it fast enough . It affects the flavor but doesn't ruin it and I bet it would still burn like it should... DB - Original Message - From: DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] WASHING Not sure I will talk to you on the week end on the phone.. love me. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:23 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WASHING Hello Vince Bubble washing might not be the best method anyway. We still use it, but mostly we stir-wash - faster and better, and it doesn't oxidise your fuel. But you have to process it properly in the first place, with good completion. Well, you have to do that anyway, don't you? See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel Best wishes Keith hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Fwd: [Bioenergy] report critiquing Minnesota's biomass mandate, fyi
Date: Wed, 15 Jun 2005 12:08:42 -0500 From: John Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Institute for Local Self-Reliance To: Bioenergy List [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [Bioenergy] report critiquing Minnesota's biomass mandate, fyi Hi bioenergy-netters- Thought you might like to know about a report we released that critiques the Minnesota biomass mandate that was passed in 1994. Below is the release and information on how to access the report. take care. jb FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - June 15, 2005 Contact: David Morris, 612-379-3815, [EMAIL PROTECTED] 10 Years Later Minnesota's Biomass Energy Mandate Fails To Deliver MINNEAPOLIS - A new report concludes that the Minnesota biomass mandate, rather than jump-starting a new industry using new energy crops, has become little more than a very costly waste-to-energy program. David Morris, Vice President of the Minneapolis based Institute for Local Self-Reliance and author of Minnesota's Biomass Mandate: An Assessment, was one of the initiators of the original 1994 mandate. It was a pioneering effort to encourage new energy crops and advanced energy conversion techniques, says Morris, Legislators knew that to achieve that goal would cost money, but agreed it was money well spent if it created a new homegrown industry, he added. The report notes that almost immediately lobbyists began to carve out exemptions for individual businesses that were using wastes as their feedstock and traditional technologies to generate power. In 1999, the legislature even allowed turkey manure, a commercial fertilizer, to receive handsome subsidies if it were instead converted into electricity. The result? As of May 2005, almost three years after the original biomass mandate was to have been fulfilled, less than 20 percent is operational. None of the currently proposed projects will use new or advanced technologies. Over 90 percent of the fuel will consist of waste wood or turkey manure. The cost to Xcel Energy's electricity customers will be over $1.1 billion. Such an expense might have been justified if we had proved that alfalfa could be used as a fuel, or that a new whole tree energy conversion process was economical, says Morris, currently a member of a Congressionally created Committee that advises the U.S. Departments of Energy and Agriculture on biomass-related issues. Instead it has become a billion dollar reward to aggressive corporate lobbyists. The report can be downloaded from ILSR's web site at http://www.ilsr.org/biomass/ -- John Bailey - Research Associate and Webrarian Institute for Local Self-Reliance Minneapolis, MN E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For innovative news and rules promoting a decentralized energy future visit Democratic Energy online at http://www.newrules.org/de/ ILSR's Home: http://www.ilsr.org/ New Rules Project: http://www.newrules.org/ ___ Bioenergy mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://listserv.repp.org/mailman/listinfo/bioenergy ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] bubble WASHING and oxidation.
Since I am not a chemist by any means, Very few of us are. So what. I was wondering why I should be concerned about oxidation? You don't know? It's been discussed a lot since you joined. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46511.html [Biofuel] Stirring and aeration - was: re: Stir vs Pump Processing I could see a problem if I was trying to store the fuel perhaps,but I use up to 50 gal a week. How long has your motor had biodiesel in the tank/fuel system/IP? Do you think it's all less than a week old? Maybe. I have only noticed oxidation being a problem in my best tequila after many months if I don't drink it fast enough . It affects the flavor but doesn't ruin it and I bet it would still burn like it should... Your tequila is indeed highly unlikely to turn into polyester resin or something like it. If you're using high-IV oil to make your biodiesel you might not be so lucky, especially if you bubble-wash it. Keith DB - Original Message - From: DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] WASHING Not sure I will talk to you on the week end on the phone.. love me. Huh? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:23 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WASHING Hello Vince Bubble washing might not be the best method anyway. We still use it, but mostly we stir-wash - faster and better, and it doesn't oxidise your fuel. But you have to process it properly in the first place, with good completion. Well, you have to do that anyway, don't you? See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel Best wishes Keith hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: biofuel
Hi Keith, Many thanks Stelios - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Friday, June 17, 2005 7:44 PM Subject: [Biofuel] Re: biofuel Hello Stelios Thank you Julian, I need first at least 3 offers from biodiesel equipment manufacture to have an option for the system capable of proccesing and used oils with an average production of 6,000 tones per year. See: Biodiesel technology http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_supply.html#tech I have already include in my proposal used oils from the island of Crete where the factory it is going to be built. The maximum recycled volume of oils is 2,000 tones and i need 4 more thousands to be feasible and in order to meet the EN 14214 standards i will need perhaps rapeseed or soybean raw oil. Soybean oil won't meet the EN 14214 standard. Soybean oil has an IV of 130 and the standard is 120. Best wishes Keith Regards, ST I would appreciate if you could send me the firm's contact in Thessaloniki. Dear Mr.Stelios Terzakis, You can get some of your raw seeds/oils /waste oils from nearby countrires and -first of all -from collecting used oil from all restaurants/grills/etc in your country. As to equipment - you may get it build for you or buy from various sources in Europe . As to contacts with nearby countries I know a firm in Thessaloniki which has such good contacts (they trade coffee ,tee,rice etc ) . In case you'd need some help//oils/workers etc - let me know your proposals . Regards Julian Pasternak Wisla,Poland +48 606506134 ICQ 39349673 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] bubble WASHING and oxidation.
I'm a NewB to Biodiesel and never even considered oxidation. What would happen if you purged your mixing chamber with N2 or CO2 and used it as the bubble supply? Course you would need to keep everything sealed and/or purged from dewater to fuel tank. Just thinking out loud. Shane --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I am not a chemist by any means, Very few of us are. So what. I was wondering why I should be concerned about oxidation? You don't know? It's been discussed a lot since you joined. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46511.html [Biofuel] Stirring and aeration - was: re: Stir vs Pump Processing I could see a problem if I was trying to store the fuel perhaps,but I use up to 50 gal a week. How long has your motor had biodiesel in the tank/fuel system/IP? Do you think it's all less than a week old? Maybe. I have only noticed oxidation being a problem in my best tequila after many months if I don't drink it fast enough . It affects the flavor but doesn't ruin it and I bet it would still burn like it should... Your tequila is indeed highly unlikely to turn into polyester resin or something like it. If you're using high-IV oil to make your biodiesel you might not be so lucky, especially if you bubble-wash it. Keith DB - Original Message - From: DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] WASHING Not sure I will talk to you on the week end on the phone.. love me. Huh? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:23 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WASHING Hello Vince Bubble washing might not be the best method anyway. We still use it, but mostly we stir-wash - faster and better, and it doesn't oxidise your fuel. But you have to process it properly in the first place, with good completion. Well, you have to do that anyway, don't you? See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel Best wishes Keith hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] bubble WASHING and oxidation.
Hi Shane, Good idea, in principle, however the energy used by the gas Co. to compress distribute your N2 or CO2 is really a waste when simple agitation washing would suffice, assuming your fuel to be washed is well made of course. Don't forget, unless you have your own water supply, energy has already been consumed to process pump the water to your tap. We don't want to add to the energy problem more than we have to. Regards Malcolm -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Shane Lowrance Sent: 18 June 2005 11:52 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] bubble WASHING and oxidation. I'm a NewB to Biodiesel and never even considered oxidation. What would happen if you purged your mixing chamber with N2 or CO2 and used it as the bubble supply? Course you would need to keep everything sealed and/or purged from dewater to fuel tank. Just thinking out loud. Shane --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Since I am not a chemist by any means, Very few of us are. So what. I was wondering why I should be concerned about oxidation? You don't know? It's been discussed a lot since you joined. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg46511.html [Biofuel] Stirring and aeration - was: re: Stir vs Pump Processing I could see a problem if I was trying to store the fuel perhaps,but I use up to 50 gal a week. How long has your motor had biodiesel in the tank/fuel system/IP? Do you think it's all less than a week old? Maybe. I have only noticed oxidation being a problem in my best tequila after many months if I don't drink it fast enough . It affects the flavor but doesn't ruin it and I bet it would still burn like it should... Your tequila is indeed highly unlikely to turn into polyester resin or something like it. If you're using high-IV oil to make your biodiesel you might not be so lucky, especially if you bubble-wash it. Keith DB - Original Message - From: DERICK GIORCHINO [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:21 AM Subject: RE: [Biofuel] WASHING Not sure I will talk to you on the week end on the phone.. love me. Huh? -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Keith Addison Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 5:23 PM To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] WASHING Hello Vince Bubble washing might not be the best method anyway. We still use it, but mostly we stir-wash - faster and better, and it doesn't oxidise your fuel. But you have to process it properly in the first place, with good completion. Well, you have to do that anyway, don't you? See: http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/msg37251.html Re: [biofuel] Questions Speed-up washing biodiesel Best wishes Keith hello all, justa few questions about washing, i have bought an aquarium pump with two different settings on it Hi \ Lo and am wondering if hi is to many bubbles. i haven't read anything about to many bubbles and was wondering. i am washing 40 gallons of BioD i will use about 10 - 15 gallons of water. Also wondering about hard and soft water. we have soft water here in Vancouver BC and had read something about it making the soap foam up more. what can i do about this or has anyone experienced anything to do with soft water? thanks you all vince zadworny ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Electronic PH meter
Howdy Kieth and Willem, the issue of the use of a pH meter as opposed to other methods for determination of the end point of a titration comes up from time to time. It seems that many believe one really needs a pH meter. I think not and here is why. Although a pH meter may be more accurate if all the variables were tightly controlled, they're not. How accurately can one measure the 1 ml of oil? One maybe two significant digits? If different oils have different densities, (they do but small) then one should really adjust the volume of oil used in the titration accordingly. Because density is a function of temperature, how accurately does one know the temperature? How accurately can one prepare the titrant solution? How accurately can one measure the titrant? Finally the titration is done in a nonaqueous heterogeneous solution, hence pH isn't even strictly defined; pH being defined as minus the log of the hydrogen ion concentration in water. If you heat the oil/isopropyl alcohol mix to get homogeneity, the hydrogen ion concentration changes. (It is actually worse, it is the hydrogen ion activity, but that is another matter.) Hence use of a pH meter to me is overkill. What you get is a very precise endpoint for a titration which is really fairly inaccurate, due to the aforementioned difficulties in the volumetric measurements, temperature, etc. I use phenolphthalein to determine the endpoint. It is quick, requires no calibration, costs a heck of a lot less than a pH meter, and provides sufficient precision for the measurement at hand. Hi Willem Hi all, I am slowly getting the parts together to construct a small biodiesel set-up (approx. 30 litres). When I told a friend recently avout my plans he gave me an electronic PH meter, pen type. Accuracy is 1 decimal. He said this would replace the titration, but could give me no more info. It won't replace titration, you use it for titration. You can use phenolphthalein, or pH test strips, or a pH meter - whichever you use, titration involves measuring the pH. See: Basic titration Better titration pH meters Phenolphthalein http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate pH meters are best, IMO. You need to calibrate them often (get calibration fluid from a lab supply) and you have to look after them properly. There's a Technical tips link at the url above. Best wishes Keith Can anyone tell me if this is so and how I convert the reading to the amount of lye to be used? Best regards, Willem ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- Bob Allen http://ozarker.org/bob Science is what we have learned about how to keep from fooling ourselves - Richard Feynman ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: solar tracking devices
OK folks. For what its worth, here is another crack at it. 1 square meter panel = 1000W * .10 (split the difference between 8 and 12) = 100W 100W * $5.00/W = $500.00 per panel 100W * .30 = energy gained using tracker, based on previous reference = 30W Equivalent value of PV panel = 30W *$5.00 = $150.00 so I guess in order to compete with the cost of PV, we need a tracker for a 1sq meter panel that costs $150.00 or less. MikeHakan Falk [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Mike,In that case you should remember to use between 8 to 12%, which is the efficiency of most commercially available PV panels today. PV panels with 30 to 35% efficiency have been developed, but they are not yet available in quantities, on the market today.20% is an odd number, what common PV panels can that be?HakanAt 10:27 PM 6/17/2005, you wrote:Hi Jack,Uh...I think I was moving a little fast on this and totally forgot to include the efficiency.Thanks.Mike[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:I think most of your math and analysis is correct, except didn't you leave out the PV cell efficiency of about 20%? So if the energy arriving is 1000 W/m2, the PV panel can only convert about 200 W/m2 to electricity, so a square meter panel generates more like 200W, not 1000W, and still needs the same $1000 tracker to move it. There is also some energy lost in the DC to AC inverter.Also, might be interesting to do this calculation in kilowatt hours per day also, to account for dark times.Jack $5.00 per watt x 1000 watts = $5000,00 per square meter (approximately) for PV panels. If I found a tracker which will hold a 1m sq panel for $1000.00 and I get a 30% panel output increase, (that's $5000.00 x .30 = $1500.00 worth of PV power for a $1000 investment) I think I would come out ahead. ___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Re: solar tracking devices
Michael Redler wrote: OK folks. For what its worth, here is another crack at it. 1 square meter panel = 1000W * .10 (split the difference between 8 and 12) = 100W 100W * $5.00/W = $500.00 per panel 100W * .30 = energy gained using tracker, based on previous reference = 30W Equivalent value of PV panel = 30W * $5.00 = $150.00 so I guess in order to compete with the cost of PV, we need a tracker for a 1sq meter panel that costs $150.00 or less. Mike Got my tracker information and a module from Duane Johnson at http://www.redrok.com/main.htm that lets me track the sun by its position, stops tracking when there are too many clouds... etc. Good knowledgeable guy to discuss this sort of thing with. Good information on building your own tracking system for next to nothing if you've got a basement full of stuff that is just too good to throw away. hope you enjoy his site, I always do. doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Reactors - tall or short
Hi everyone, I'm in the planning stageof trying to put together my biodiesel reactor. I've heard that the taller slimmer water heaters are usually best, however, I'm a bit cramped for space would probably need to go with a shorter one. If anyone has any thoughts, comments, advice, etc, I would really appreciate the input. I'm also toying with the idea of modifying a 55 gallon drum to use if possible. Respectfully, Gregg Davidson Yahoo! Sports Rekindle the Rivalries. Sign up for Fantasy Football ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] introduction and stirring question.
I just joined. I am a chemistry teacher, and I've decided I'm going to start making biodiesel this summer. I ran some test batches this week, and I'm going to start on my reactor today. I read in the archives an allusion to someone attempting to make a magnetic stir plate. I had the same idea myself, but was interested in the outcome of other's attempts at this. Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Electronic PH meter
Howdy Bob Howdy Kieth and Willem, the issue of the use of a pH meter as opposed to other methods for determination of the end point of a titration comes up from time to time. It seems that many believe one really needs a pH meter. I think not and here is why. Although a pH meter may be more accurate if all the variables were tightly controlled, they're not. How accurately can one measure the 1 ml of oil? One maybe two significant digits? You can measure 4ml four times as accurately, so use 4ml and divide by 4. See: Better titration http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrate Accurate measurement http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#measure This is one of the reasons, among the more obvious ones, that we always recommend starting with one-litre test batches - you learn precision that way. Or as much precision as you're capable of. If different oils have different densities, (they do but small) then one should really adjust the volume of oil used in the titration accordingly. That will start to matter when you get to high-FFA oils titrating at say 7 or 8ml or above, very marginal at less than that IMHO. We've processed higher titration oils than 7 or 8 accurately and reliably (single-stage base) using pH meters, but phenolphthalein wasn't reliable at that level. Because density is a function of temperature, how accurately does one know the temperature? At processing temperature. How accurately can one prepare the titrant solution? How accurately can one measure the titrant? Finally the titration is done in a nonaqueous heterogeneous solution, hence pH isn't even strictly defined; pH being defined as minus the log of the hydrogen ion concentration in water. Bob, how can it be a non-aqueous solution when you're adding 0.1% v/w NaOH (or KOH) solution which is 99.9% water? If you heat the oil/isopropyl alcohol mix to get homogeneity, the hydrogen ion concentration changes. (It is actually worse, it is the hydrogen ion activity, but that is another matter.) But it will be the same as what's encountered in the subsequent processing. Hence use of a pH meter to me is overkill. What you get is a very precise endpoint for a titration which is really fairly inaccurate, due to the aforementioned difficulties in the volumetric measurements, temperature, etc. We've had three different pH meters, well-calibrated and maintained, in consistent agreement and differing from phenolphthalein results, and the pH meter results were consistently borne out by the subsequent processing results, whereas phenolphthalein were off, this with high-FFA oils where you can really see the difference. The phenolphthalein was obtained from two different lab supply houses and was fresh. We use phenolphthalein for demos and at our seminars because of the pretty pink colour and it's a cheap entry, but we seldom use it otherwise. At our workshops we use pH meters. I use phenolphthalein to determine the endpoint. It is quick, requires no calibration, costs a heck of a lot less than a pH meter, and provides sufficient precision for the measurement at hand. To each his own Bob. Best wishes Keith Hi Willem Hi all, I am slowly getting the parts together to construct a small biodiesel set-up (approx. 30 litres). When I told a friend recently avout my plans he gave me an electronic PH meter, pen type. Accuracy is 1 decimal. He said this would replace the titration, but could give me no more info. It won't replace titration, you use it for titration. You can use phenolphthalein, or pH test strips, or a pH meter - whichever you use, titration involves measuring the pH. See: Basic titration Better titration pH meters Phenolphthalein http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#titrate pH meters are best, IMO. You need to calibrate them often (get calibration fluid from a lab supply) and you have to look after them properly. There's a Technical tips link at the url above. Best wishes Keith Can anyone tell me if this is so and how I convert the reading to the amount of lye to be used? Best regards, Willem ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Electronic PH meter
I haven't done much with biodiesel yet, but I can shed some light on pH meters vs. phenolphthalien(PHTH) from a chemist's perspective. As acids become weaker, it is important to become more careful in the selection of a chemical indicator (such as PHTH), as the change in pH is much slower than it is for a strong acid titration. PHTH is the most commonly used indicator for strong acid titrations because it has such a clear color change. Fortunately it appears to change color over the same range as the equivalence pt. for FFAs. The difficulty in either method is knowing what the equivalence point is going to be. This will vary based on the type of oil and the degree of hydrogenation. I don't suspect it will vary much, but it will vary. If your goal is a pH of 8 or 9, then usingPHTH is going to be as good as a pH meter. If you have a better idea of what the equivalence point is going to be, then a pH meter works better. And if you haven't a clue, there is a rather tedious method of determining what it should be using a pH meter. I'll probalby use this method myself at least once so I have a better understanding of the behavior, but I wouldn't necessarily recommend it for everyone, and I certainly am not going to do it for each batch. The point is there are a number of reasons why PHTH may not work as well as a pH meter in some cases yet works fine in other cases. This is something I think everyone will have to decide for themselves. Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Howdy BobHowdy Kieth and Willem, the issue of the use of a pH meter as opposed to other methods for determination of the end point of a titration comes up from time to time. It seems that many believe one really needs a pH meter. I think not and here is why. Although a pH meter may be more accurate if all the variables were tightly controlled, they're not. How accurately can one measure the 1 ml of oil? One maybe two significant digits?You can measure 4ml four times as accurately, so use 4ml and divide by 4. See:Better titrationhttp://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#bettertitrateAccurate measurementhttp://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make2.html#measureThis is one of the reasons, among the more obvious ones, that we always recommend starting with one-litre test batches - you learn precision that way. Or as much precision as you're capable of.If different oils have different densities, (they do but small) then one should really adjust the volume of oil used in the titration accordingly.That will start to matter when you get to high-FFA oils titrating at say 7 or 8ml or above, very marginal at less than that IMHO. We've processed higher titration oils than 7 or 8 accurately and reliably (single-stage base) using pH meters, but phenolphthalein wasn't reliable at that level.Because density is a function of temperature, how accurately does one know the temperature?At processing temperature.How accurately can one prepare the titrant solution? How accurately can one measure the titrant? Finally the titration is done in a nonaqueous heterogeneous solution, hence pH isn't even strictly defined; pH being defined as minus the log of the hydrogen ion concentration in water.Bob, how can it be a non-aqueous solution when you're adding 0.1% v/w NaOH (or KOH) solution which is 99.9% water?If you heat the oil/isopropyl alcohol mix to get homogeneity, the hydrogen ion concentration changes. (It is actually worse, it is the hydrogen ion activity, but that is another matter.)But it will be the same as what's encountered in the subsequent processing.Hence use of a pH meter to me is overkill. What you get is a very precise endpoint for a titration which is really fairly inaccurate, due to the aforementioned difficulties in the volumetric measurements, temperature, etc.We've had three different pH meters, well-calibrated and maintained, in consistent agreement and differing from phenolphthalein results, and the pH meter results were consistently borne out by the subsequent processing results, whereas phenolphthalein were off, this with high-FFA oils where you can really see the difference.The phenolphthalein was obtained from two different lab supply houses and was fresh. We use phenolphthalein for demos and at our seminars because of the pretty pink colour and it's a cheap entry, but we seldom use it otherwise. At our workshops we use pH meters.I use phenolphthalein to determine the endpoint. It is quick, requires no calibration, costs a heck of a lot less than a pH meter, and provides sufficient precision for the measurement at hand.To each his own Bob.Best wishesKeithHi WillemHi all,I am slowly getting the parts together to construct a small biodiesel set-up(approx. 30 litres).When I told a friend recently avout my plans he gave me an electronic PHmeter, pen type. Accuracy is 1 decimal. He said this would replace thetitration, but could give me no more info.It won't replace titration, you use it for titration. You can use phenolphthalein, or
Re: [Biofuel] Fw: Electronic PH meter
on 6/18/05 1:08 PM, the skapegoat at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As acids become weaker, it is important to become more careful in the selection of a chemical indicator (such as PHTH), as the change in pH is much slower than it is for a strong acid titration. PHTH is the most commonly used indicator for strong acid titrations because it has such a clear color change. Fortunately it appears to change color over the same range as the equivalence pt. for FFAs. The difficulty in either method is knowing what the equivalence point is going to be. This will vary based on the type of oil and the degree of hydrogenation. I'm not sure, but I THINK what you're saying may be the same as my own observation with phenolphthalein, which is it displays a WIDE RANGE of pinkness. It doesn't just turn pink -- sometimes it turns pink and then turns colorless after awhile. Sometimes it's hard to tell if it's the same shade of pink it was a little earlier. I've always assumed the difference was small and didn't matter. -K ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Reactors - tall or short
Hi Gregg Hi everyone, I'm in the planning stage of trying to put together my biodiesel reactor. I've heard that the taller slimmer water heaters are usually best, however, I'm a bit cramped for space would probably need to go with a shorter one. If anyone has any thoughts, comments, advice, etc, I would really appreciate the input. I'm also toying with the idea of modifying a 55 gallon drum to use if possible. Generally I'm not a fan of water heater reactors, excepting Dale's one (the original). Otherwise, not very impressed. But to each his own, as long as it works well. Tall and thin (like me! LOL!) is generally better than short and fat. See what Michael Allen has to say about it: The Design of 'Deepthort' http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor8.html#design (The whole page is worth a read, lots of good info.) Have a read of this too: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor10.html Journey to Forever 90-litre processor More good reasons for tall and thin. On the other hand this reactor is about the same proportions as a 55-gallon drum. There is a more ectomorphic tank pictured there too, but the existing one's just fine. These tanks are 90-litre kerosene tanks commonly used for heating water here. Anything similar would do, and they're a lot smaller than a 55-gallon drum. How much fuel do you use? How often will you need to make it? Another consideration is whether you'll use a pump or a stirrer for mixing - either way you'll get better agitation in a tall thin vessel with less danger of unreacted stuff ending up in the final product. With stirrers you can use higher speeds, more efficient paddle design or baffle plates to improve agitation. With pumps the rose inlet we use probably solves the problem. (Don't use a 1 clear water pump for a 55 gallon drum, it needs something stronger - max. for the 1 pump is about half that size, 100 litres.) You'll also need a washing tank of the same capacity or more - batch-size plus one-third as much water or more plus headroom. Depending how you want to pre-heat the oil you might also need a pre-heating tank, though not if you'll be relying on electric heating elements in the reactor. We pre-heat the oil in a separate tank (NO methanol around at this stage!) over a biodiesel or by-product burner and transfer the heated oil to the reactor, then use the heating element to maintain the temperature, much cheaper. You could also put a burner under the reactor but not if you're going to put a cone bottom on it or if there are a bunch of outlets and valves there, unless you can avoid frying them somehow. We find a separate settling tank and an extra wash tank are very useful, but you can do without them. Still, this whole set-up fits in a corner, compact and effective, very flexible. HTH. Best wishes Keith Respectfully, Gregg Davidson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
