Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Ken Provost]

On Nov 4, 2005, at 10:11 PM, Ken Dunn wrote:
>
>
> I'm still a bit confused.
>
> What is the trick to evaporating the methanol
> without reversing the process?


Very simple -- you can't boil off methanol when both
biodiesel and glycerine are present without shifting
the equilibrium backwards to some extent.

You can recover methanol out of a mixture of
methanol with biodiesel, or out of a mixture of
methanol with glycerine, but NOT out of a mixture
of all three.

-K

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Re: [Biofuel] pump washing

[Thomas Kelly]

Hello to all,
 In a previous post I wrote 
that pump washing appeals to me. I want to make it clear that I have had great 
success w. stir washing. I recommend it to everyone. 
  It is my belief (may 
be wrong) that the higher the quality of BD the more rigorous the wash agitation 
can be. The batches that I have made that cannot take stir washing (emulsions 
occurred) have invariably been the result of incomplete reactions. As the 
BD I make has increased in quality, it has stir washed very easily. 

 At this moment I have a 
full tank of BD in my car and my heating oil tank is full. I have 75L of what I 
think is high quality BD in my settling tank (since Wed). I have the luxury of 
trying something that has interested me. 
 For anyone starting out or 
still in the R&D phase of scaling up and tweaking the process to 
improve quality, disregard anything other than the tried and tested directions 
at JtF. Print them out. Read them and then re-read them.
Follow the instructions, ask questions, don't add 
or subtract anything and you will be making quality BD. 
   
Tom
 
   

  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Thomas 
  Kelly 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 5:36 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] pump washing
  
  Joe,
   Pump washing appeals to 
  me in principle. A nice closed system. No welding involved. I can see that the 
  mix is homogenized and can even see the separation as it occurs through the 
  clear vinyl tubing. In my only attempt at it my wash water remained milk white 
  even after 7washes.good separation of water & BD, but the wash water 
  stayed white. 
   It was only a 18L batch. 
  The pump was a 1/2hp clearwater pump. The BD washed very easily when I 
  switched to stir washing, but upon reprocessing 1L of washed and dried BD I 
  got some glycerine. I was being rough with the product of an incomplete 
  reaction. 
   I think I understand 
  your wash setup, but don't understand the actual process. 
   When you pump wash do 
  you stop the pump when all the water has been pumped in from the bottom or do 
  you continue pumping to achieve a homogeneous mixture of water and BD? 
  
    Couldn't the water 
  be introduced from outside the tank while the BD is circulating? . in 
  a manner similar to how we add methoxide during reaction?
   I have been making 
  quality BD on my recent batches and have 75L in my settling tank. I found a 
  small pump that pumps about 3L/min. I'm tempted to connect it to my wash tank 
  and give it a go. See if using a smaller pump and high quality BD I 
  can use pump washing. 
   And Joe, Thanks for the 
  visual aids for the titration station. If I ever get the time, maybe I'll give 
  it a try.
   
   
  Best Wishes,
   
  Tom
  - Original Message - 
  
From: 
Joe Street 
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 

Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:32 
PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] pump 
washing
Hi Jonathan;One suggestion for you.  I pump wash 
my fuel and my pump picks up fuel from above the water level and dumps it at 
the top of the tank.   I also have a fitting at the bottom of the 
tank with a ball valve connected to a plastic 1/4 inch line that feeds into 
a tee at the inlet of the pump.  The judicious use of that ball valve 
is critical to a good wash, especially in the early washes.  Basically 
I turn the pump on and let it recirculate the fuel and then while watching 
the boundary between the fuel and water in the clear plastic tube at the 
bottom of the tank I slowly crack the ball valve open until I see the water 
start to slowly move torard the pump inlet.  Too much water will result 
in emulsion at the pump impeller.  As the fuel gets cleaner at later 
wash stages it will tolerate more water.  1/4 inch poly line is enough 
to carry plenty (too much actually) of 
water.CheersJoeJonathan Schearer wrote:

  Is anyone using circulating pump to wash their fuel?  I 
  performed a wash test on my first batch from my processor and it seperated 
  nicely.  I then pumped it into my wash tank added equal volume of 
  water and circulated it from bottom back into top of tank.  The water 
  was cold the first time and I changed that to warm water for the rest of 
  the washes.  I had to was the fuel 5 times before it was acceptable 
  to me.  I let the pump run too long the first time-45 minutes.  
  It homogenized quite well:)  The next 4 times I only ran it for about 
  5 minutes or just until mixture homogenized.  Is the pump mixing the 
  wash too well?  I have not tried the bubble wash or the stirring 
  method.  I guess I thought that the pump would be similar to the 
  stirrer.  Any thoughts?  
  
  
  Yahoo!

Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Ken Dunn]

Hey Keith,

I'm still a bit confused.

On 11/5/05, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Most convenient would be to
> reclaim it all at once right at the end of the process before
> removing the by-product while it's still hot and near the boiling
> point of methanol, but that throws the reaction into reverse, undoing
> the work you've just done making the biodiesel.

I seem to keep seeing statements along these lines but they seem very
contrary within themselves.  This sounds like "I want to evaporate off
the methanol but, I can't do it because I will undo my processing". 
That doesn't sound convenient at all.  What is the trick to
evaporating the methanol without reversing the process?  Or does the
below statement tell me how to complete the evaporation/condensation
process described above?



> Roughly speaking, if you make a 50/50 mix of two liquids with
> different boiling points they don't each boil off at their respective
> boiling points, the boiling point of the mixture will be about
> halfway between the two. Then there are complicated things about
> volatility and so on, but the one with the lower boiling point (ie
> the methanol) boils off first, and as it boils off the boiling point
> of the mixture rises until (in theory) there's none left, at the
> boiling point of the other liquid. With the by-product, you won't get
> it much above 100 deg C before it starts frothing, you'll have got
> most of the methanol but not all of it.

Is this the key?  Try to prevent frothing and you have been successful
in preventing the reversal of the process?

As always, thanks for your endless devotion.

Take care,
Ken

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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Keith Addison]

>I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some 
>success with making fuel first.
>
>Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will 
>mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the 
>fuel.
>
>This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or 
>less of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the 
>finished product before washing.
>
> I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel 
>stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced 
>with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame 
>on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit 
>and pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it 
>separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a 
>pet bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is 
>separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled 
>batch.
>
>Is there any problem with this process?  I wouldn't ask but I can't 
>find anything in the archives.

There's quite a lot about it in the archives, and more at JtF. Most 
of the methanol excess ends up in the by-product layer, the rest in 
the biodiesel (proportions at JtF), and both can/should be reclaimed. 
Though it's worth reading this too:

More about methanol
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#moremeth

The methanol in the glyc by-product can be reclaimed as-is, but if 
you have a use or a market for the separated by-products then 
separate the glycerine-FFA-catalyst first, and then reclaim the 
methanol from the glycerine fraction. With the portion in the 
biodiesel, reclaim before washing. Most convenient would be to 
reclaim it all at once right at the end of the process before 
removing the by-product while it's still hot and near the boiling 
point of methanol, but that throws the reaction into reverse, undoing 
the work you've just done making the biodiesel.

You can reclaim the methanol with a pot-still or equivalent, with 
either the biodiesel or the by-product. Some people use vacuum too. 
No need for such high temperatures. The methanol starts to evaporate 
well before boiling point, but it doesn't really work like that 
anyway.

Roughly speaking, if you make a 50/50 mix of two liquids with 
different boiling points they don't each boil off at their respective 
boiling points, the boiling point of the mixture will be about 
halfway between the two. Then there are complicated things about 
volatility and so on, but the one with the lower boiling point (ie 
the methanol) boils off first, and as it boils off the boiling point 
of the mixture rises until (in theory) there's none left, at the 
boiling point of the other liquid. With the by-product, you won't get 
it much above 100 deg C before it starts frothing, you'll have got 
most of the methanol but not all of it. If you use flash-evaporators 
you'll get better recovery with less energy input, for both bd and 
by-product.

I think the positive effects on washing of recovering the methanol 
from the biodiesel first have been discussed, sorry, I don't have the 
time to pin it down right now.

Best

Keith


>Thanks Derick


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Re: [Biofuel] pump washing

[Keith Addison]

>Jonathan,
>  Somewhere in the archives there should be a post I made re: 
>problems with the wash. I tried pump washing  using a 1/2hp 
>clearwater pump. I kept getting milky-white wash water (7 
>washes). Both Keith and Todd S.  suggested that I was 
>churning/atomizing the water/BD mix too much ... "making butter". 
>They suggested stir washing. The batch washed easily    stir 
>washed. I've been stir washing ever since.
>  Tom

It's right here Tom:

"Thank you Keith and Todd -- I followed your advice and stir-washed 
the 15L batch instead of pump-washing it. The first wash water came 
out a bit cloudy. The second was crystal clear. Thanks again." -- Tom 
Kelly, Biofuel mailing list"
-- Washing - Stir washing
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html

You're famous. :-)

Best

Keith


>
>
>- Original Message -
>From: Jonathan Schearer
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 11:26 AM
>Subject: [Biofuel] pump washing
>
>Is anyone using circulating pump to wash their fuel?  I performed a 
>wash test on my first batch from my processor and it seperated 
>nicely.  I then pumped it into my wash tank added equal volume of 
>water and circulated it from bottom back into top of tank.  The 
>water was cold the first time and I changed that to warm water for 
>the rest of the washes.  I had to was the fuel 5 times before it was 
>acceptable to me.  I let the pump run too long the first time-45 
>minutes.  It homogenized quite well:)  The next 4 times I only ran 
>it for about 5 minutes or just until mixture homogenized.  Is the 
>pump mixing the wash too well?  I have not tried the bubble wash or 
>the stirring method.  I guess I thought that the pump would be 
>similar to the stirrer.  Any thoughts?


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Re: [Biofuel] pump washing

[Keith Addison]

>Would please explain how stir washing is done?
>
>Thanks
>
>Jim

See:

Washing - Stir washing
http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html

It tells you how and why and keeps referring to Biofuel list messages.

Please check first before asking.

Thankyou.

Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
KYOTO Pref., Japan
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel list owner

 

>Thomas Kelly wrote:
>
> > Joe,
> >  Pump washing appeals to me in principle. A nice closed system. No
> > welding involved. I can see that the mix is homogenized and can even



 


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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Derick Giorchino]

Thanks buck yes I did know about the methanol boiling point. But after the
evaporation process there should only be liquid. But my point in this
experiment was to find out if it would help the wash process and reduce the
water contamination. I didn't care about the methanol recovery so much at
this point. I usually do try to extract the methanol from the glycerin in 6
gal batches but it is very hard to get full recovery. It is very hard to get
above 120 deg F this way. My plan at this point is to separate the
glycerine/ffas. And recover the methanol from the crude glycerin. 
But the question still is there any reason that this process should not be
used? 
Will it do funky things to the finished product? 
If I were to adopt this process I would not heat it so severely or fast 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Buck Williams
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:55 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

do youu guyss knolw hte bioling point of methanol is 149 f. and  i dont know

what the boilling point of diesel is but itw way below the boiling point of 
water at 212,, buck


>From: JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
>Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:31:32 -0800
>
>Hi Derick,
>
>I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the
>envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume
>to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may
>make it worth while.
>
>Jim
>
>Derick Giorchino wrote:
>
> > I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some
> > success with making fuel first.
> >
> > Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will
> > mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the
> > fuel.
> >
> > This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less
> > of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished
> > product before washing.
> >
> > I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel
> > stock = I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced
> > with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame
> > on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and
> > pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it
> > separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet
> > bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is
> > separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
> >
> > Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnt ask but I cant
> > find anything in the archives.
> >
> > Thanks Derick
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Derick Giorchino]

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:32 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

Hi Derick,

I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the 
envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume 
to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may 
make it worth while.


Since I did it as a knee jerk reaction I didnât worry so much about the temp
just a foot note I use the same fish tank pump I use to add methanol to my
reactor and push the methanol vapor through the evaporator. Since I have
done this I have recovered about 5 times the methanol in 1/4 the amount of
time. But I didnât do it in this case.   
I recovered aprox ml.

Derick Giorchino wrote:

> I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some 
> success with making fuel first.
>
> Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will 
> mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the 
> fuel.
>
> This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less 
> of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished 
> product before washing.
>
> I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel 
> stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced 
> with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame 
> on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and 
> pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it 
> separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet 
> bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is 
> separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
>
> Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnât ask but I canât 
> find anything in the archives.
>
> Thanks Derick
>
>
>
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>

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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Buck Williams]

what the boilling point of diesel is but itw way below the boiling point of 
water at 212,, buck


>From: JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?
>Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2005 19:31:32 -0800
>
>Hi Derick,
>
>I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the
>envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume
>to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may
>make it worth while.
>
>Jim
>
>Derick Giorchino wrote:
>
> > I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some
> > success with making fuel first.
> >
> > Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will
> > mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the
> > fuel.
> >
> > This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less
> > of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished
> > product before washing.
> >
> > I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel
> > stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced
> > with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame
> > on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and
> > pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it
> > separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet
> > bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is
> > separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
> >
> > Is there any problem with this process? I wouldnât ask but I canât
> > find anything in the archives.
> >
> > Thanks Derick
> >
> >
> >
> >___
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> >
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>messages):
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> >
> >
> >
>
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Re: [Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[JJJN]

Hi Derick,

I too am curios about this, but isnt 275 deg F on the edge of the 
envelope Bio? I would like to try this as well but instead use a vacume 
to keep the temp down. how much ethanol did you recover? That alone may 
make it worth while.

Jim

Derick Giorchino wrote:

> I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get some 
> success with making fuel first.
>
> Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so it will 
> mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the 
> fuel.
>
> This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be shortened or less 
> of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the finished 
> product before washing.
>
> I have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter of fuel 
> stock ½ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced 
> with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame 
> on and heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and 
> pored it into a pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it 
> separated in just a few minutes. The other half was just put in a pet 
> bottle and wash water was added and shook it hard although it is 
> separating not even close to the same speed as the demethanoled batch.
>
> Is there any problem with this process? I wouldn’t ask but I can’t 
> find anything in the archives.
>
> Thanks Derick
>
>
>
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>  
>

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[Biofuel] methanol recovery from fuel stock?

[Derick Giorchino]

I have pondering this for some time but figured I should get
some success with making fuel first.

Since alcohol is added from time to time to storage tanks so
it will mix with the water and thus the blended alcohol water mixes with the
fuel. 

This being the said, I wondered if the wash could be
shortened or less of a waste problem by distilling the methanol out of the
finished product before washing.

ÊI have just finished a 120 liter batch I pulled off 1 liter
of fuel stock ¸ I put in a old pressure cooker with the steam vent replaced
with a hose barb and connected it to my evaporator. Turned the flame on and
heated to 275 deg F for 10 minutes or so. Let it cool a bit and pored it into a
pet bottle added the wash water shook it hard it separated in just a few minutes.
The other half was just put in a pet bottle and wash water was added and shook
it hard although it is separating not even close to the same speed as the
demethanoled batch. Ê

Is there any problem with this process? ÊI wouldn’t ask
but I can’t find anything in the archives.

Thanks Derick 







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[Biofuel] Windfall Profits Tax on Big Oil Companies

[JJJN]

*Dorgan and Dodd Will Ask Senate to Enact Windfall Profits Tax on Big 
Oil Companies
*/(Byron Dorgan’s Office – Nov. 1) /
Two U.S. Senators intend to ask the Senate – before Thanksgiving – to 
vote on whether to levy a 50 percent windfall profits tax on big oil 
companies, with money raised from the tax rebated to consumers. U.S. 
Senators Byron Dorgan, D-N.D., and Chris Dodd, D-Conn., said Tuesday 
they will offer their bill – S. 1621, the Windfall Profits Rebate bill – 
as an amendment when the Senate considers tax policy during the budget 
reconciliation debate. The Senate is expected to take up the tax package 
in about two weeks and finish it before Thanksgiving. Their bill would 
place a 50 percent excise tax on sales of oil at prices above $40 a 
barrel – the average level reached last year, which, itself, represented 
a then-record profit level for the oil companies. Current prices are 
near $60 a barrel and recently have approached $70 per barrel. The tax 
would only apply to the major integrated oil companies and then only if 
those profits were not invested by the companies in expanding refinery 
capacity, investing in renewables, or in efforts to increase domestic 
oil and gas supplies. All money raised by the tax would be rebated 
directly to consumers “who have paid with pain at the pump for the 
astounding gain enjoyed by the big oil companies,” Dorgan said. “Last 
week the major integrated oil companies reported some of the biggest 
quarterly profits in history – $9.92 billion by ExxonMobil; $9.03 
billion by Shell; $6.53 billion by BP; $3.8 billion by ConocoPhillips 
and $3.6 billion by ChevronTexaco.” Dorgan noted that in the past week, 
both Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist, R-Tenn., and House Speaker 
Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., “talked about the need for the oil companies to 
invest some of these profits into domestic production and refinery 
capacity, but actually proposed nothing. Talk is cheap. What we need is 
action, and we intend to present the Senate with a chance to act.” The 
legislation was introduced Sept. 7, and Dorgan and Dodd formally 
requested a hearing on their bill Sept. 9 by the Senate Finance Committee.

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Re: [Biofuel] pump washing

[JJJN]

Would please explain how stir washing is done?

Thanks

Jim

Thomas Kelly wrote:

> Joe,
>  Pump washing appeals to me in principle. A nice closed system. No 
> welding involved. I can see that the mix is homogenized and can even 
> see the separation as it occurs through the clear vinyl tubing. In my 
> only attempt at it my wash water remained milk white even after 
> 7washes.good separation of water & BD, but the wash water stayed 
> white.
>  It was only a 18L batch. The pump was a 1/2hp clearwater pump. 
> The BD washed very easily when I switched to stir washing, but upon 
> reprocessing 1L of washed and dried BD I got some glycerine. I was 
> being rough with the product of an incomplete reaction.  
>  I think I understand your wash setup, but don't understand the 
> actual process.
>  When you pump wash do you stop the pump when all the water has 
> been pumped in from the bottom or do you continue pumping to achieve a 
> homogeneous mixture of water and BD?
>   Couldn't the water be introduced from outside the tank while the 
> BD is circulating? . in a manner similar to how we add methoxide 
> during reaction?
>  I have been making quality BD on my recent batches and have 75L 
> in my settling tank. I found a small pump that pumps about 3L/min. I'm 
> tempted to connect it to my wash tank and give it a go. See if using a 
> smaller pump and high quality BD I can use pump washing.
>  And Joe, Thanks for the visual aids for the titration station. If 
> I ever get the time, maybe I'll give it a try.
>  
>  Best Wishes,
>  Tom
> - Original Message -
>
> *From:* Joe Street 
> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
> *Sent:* Friday, November 04, 2005 12:32 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] pump washing
>
> Hi Jonathan;
>
> One suggestion for you.  I pump wash my fuel and my pump picks up
> fuel from above the water level and dumps it at the top of the
> tank.   I also have a fitting at the bottom of the tank with a
> ball valve connected to a plastic 1/4 inch line that feeds into a
> tee at the inlet of the pump.  The judicious use of that ball
> valve is critical to a good wash, especially in the early washes. 
> Basically I turn the pump on and let it recirculate the fuel and
> then while watching the boundary between the fuel and water in the
> clear plastic tube at the bottom of the tank I slowly crack the
> ball valve open until I see the water start to slowly move torard
> the pump inlet.  Too much water will result in emulsion at the
> pump impeller.  As the fuel gets cleaner at later wash stages it
> will tolerate more water.  1/4 inch poly line is enough to carry
> plenty (too much actually) of water.
>
> Cheers
> Joe
>
> Jonathan Schearer wrote:
>
>> Is anyone using circulating pump to wash their fuel?  I performed
>> a wash test on my first batch from my processor and it seperated
>> nicely.  I then pumped it into my wash tank added equal volume of
>> water and circulated it from bottom back into top of tank.  The
>> water was cold the first time and I changed that to warm water
>> for the rest of the washes.  I had to was the fuel 5 times before
>> it was acceptable to me.  I let the pump run too long the first
>> time-45 minutes.  It homogenized quite well:)  The next 4 times I
>> only ran it for about 5 minutes or just until mixture
>> homogenized.  Is the pump mixing the wash too well?  I have not
>> tried the bubble wash or the stirring method.  I guess I thought
>> that the pump would be similar to the stirrer.  Any thoughts? 
>> Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click.
>> 
>> 
>>
>>
>> 
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>>
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>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
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>>
>>  
>>
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> messages):
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>
>

Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl Source

[Rob Rogers]

Yes, I used 3.5 grams of LYE

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Rogers
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 6:54 AM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl Source

In your test batches, did you use 3.5 grams of Lye and Fresh Oil? I'm sure
of the purity of my LYE but not the methanol. 
   After sitting overnight, the test batch separated, but the water in the
bottom is like milk and is too thick to siphon off.
 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dan Sharp
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:51 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl Source

I'm in Pasadena and have successfully completed a couple test batches.  I
don't have a processor built yet, but will show you what I
did for the test batches if you get out this way

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Rob Rogers
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 5:23 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl Source

I am in East Texas, but I sometimes venture to LA. Do you know anyone in
East Texas making BD that could give me a lesson. I am
having trouble passing the shake test.

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of logan vilas
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 2:33 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl Source

Bouchereau Oil CO Inc
   1272 Lafourche Street
   Donaldsonville, LA  70346
   http://www.chevrontexaco.com
 225-473-7662
It actually connects you to gobert oil, they are out of thibidoux. Where are

you located?

Logan Vilas


- Original Message -
From: "Rob Rogers" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Isopropyl Source


> Who is your source for Methanol? I like that price and it might not be to
> far for me to drive.
>


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Re: [Biofuel] Titration

[logan vilas]

Hi Joe,

I like the setup very much. How strong is the magnetic attraction to the 
stirr stick?

I am thinking of building one like this. Atach a beaker(just big enough to 
hold your test tube) to the unit then put thermal paste for a computer cpu 
between the beaker and the heater you would get much better thermal 
transfer. Put water in the beaker and place yor test tube in that to get the 
heat from the water. The only real question would be if the stir bar will 
work with the extra layer of water and glass, but a 2 dollar motor, or a 
magnet would probably solve that. I think the aditional heat transfer would 
make up for the time lost heating the water. And It would only cost about 
10-15 dollars for the beaker and the thermal paste.

Logan Vilas
Bio-Fuel Enterprises, Inc.



- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Titration


> Hi All;
>
> Ok I managed to scribble down some text on my little titration unit and
> throw some pics in with the description on my website.
>
> http://www.nonprofitfuel.ca/Titrator.html
>
> The link is under the equipment section. Anyone who is handy enough to
> be farting around with biofuel reactors ought to be more than capable of
> reproducing it if desired.  I'm really happy with how it works.  Of
> course one can get by with a hot water bath and a stir stick but I have
> gone and spoiled myself and now I can never go back!
>
> Cheers
> Joe


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[Biofuel] new source of cheap near-limitless power

[marilyn]

Anyone know about this? Sounds too good to be true. 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/story/0,3605,1627424,00.html

Fuel's paradise? Power source that turns physics on its head 

· Scientist says device disproves quantum theory 
· Opponents claim idea is result of wrong maths 

Alok Jha, science correspondent
Friday November 4, 2005
The Guardian 

It seems too good to be true: a new source of near-limitless 
power that costs virtually nothing, uses tiny amounts of water as 
its fuel and produces next to no waste. If that does not sound 
radical enough, how about this: the principle behind the source 
turns modern physics on its head.

Randell Mills, a Harvard University medic who also studied 
electrical engineering at Massachusetts Institute of Technology, 
claims to have built a prototype power source that generates up 
to 1,000 times more heat than conventional fuel. Independent 
scientists claim to have verified the experiments and Dr Mills 
says that his company, Blacklight Power, has tens of millions of 
dollars in investment lined up to bring the idea to market. And he 
claims to be just months away from unveiling his creation.

The problem is that according to the rules of quantum 
mechanics, the physics that governs the behaviour of atoms, the 
idea is theoretically impossible. "Physicists are quite 
conservative. It's not easy to convince them to change a theory 
that is accepted for 50 to 60 years. I don't think [Mills's] theory 
should be supported," said Jan Naudts, a theoretical physicist at 
the University of Antwerp.

What has much of the physics world up in arms is Dr Mills's 
claim that he has produced a new form of hydrogen, the 
simplest of all the atoms, with just a single proton circled by one 
electron. In his "hydrino", the electron sits a little closer to the 
proton than normal, and the formation of the new atoms from 
traditional hydrogen releases huge amounts of energy.

This is scientific heresy. According to quantum mechanics, 
electrons can only exist in an atom in strictly defined orbits, and 
the shortest distance allowed between the proton and electron in 
hydrogen is fixed. The two particles are simply not allowed to get 
any closer.

According to Dr Mills, there can be only one explanation: 
quantum mechanics must be wrong. "We've done a lot of testing. 
We've got 50 independent validation reports, we've got 65 
peer-reviewed journal articles," he said. "We ran into this 
theoretical resistance and there are some vested interests here. 
People are very strong and fervent protectors of this [quantum] 
theory that they use."

Rick Maas, a chemist at the University of North Carolina at 
Asheville (UNC) who specialises in sustainable energy sources, 
was allowed unfettered access to Blacklight's laboratories this 
year. "We went in with a healthy amount of scepticism. While it 
would certainly be nice if this were true, in my position as head of 
a research institution, I really wouldn't want to make a mistake. 
The last thing I want is to be remembered as the person who 
derailed a lot of sustainable energy investment into something 
that wasn't real."

But Prof Maas and Randy Booker, a UNC physicist, left under no 
doubt about Dr Mill's claims. "All of us who are not quantum 
physicists are looking at Dr Mills's data and we find it very 
compelling," said Prof Maas. "Dr Booker and I have both put our 
professional reputations on the line as far as that goes."

Dr Mills's idea goes against almost a century of thinking. When 
scientists developed the theory of quantum mechanics they 
described a world where measuring the exact position or energy 
of a particle was impossible and where the laws of classical 
physics had no effect. The theory has been hailed as one of the 
20th century's greatest achievements.

But it is an achievement Dr Mills thinks is flawed. He turned back 
to earlier classical physics to develop a theory which, unlike 
quantum mechanics, allows an electron to move much closer to 
the proton at the heart of a hydrogen atom and, in doing so, 
release the substantial amounts of energy he seeks to exploit. 
Dr Mills's theory, known as classical quantum mechanics and 
published in the journal Physics Essays in 2003, has been 
criticised most publicly by Andreas Rathke of the European 
Space Agency. In a damning critique published recently in the 
New Journal of Physics, he argued that Dr Mills's theory was the 
result of mathematical mistakes.

Dr Mills argues that there are plenty of flaws in Dr Rathke's 
critique. "His paper's riddled with mistakes. We've had other 
physicists contact him and say this is embarrassing to the 
journal and [Dr Rathke] won't respond," said Dr Mills.

While the theoretical tangle is unlikely to resolve itself soon, 
those wanting to exploit the technology are pushing ahead. "We 
would like to understand it from an academic standpoint and 
then we would like to be able to use the implications to actually 
produce energy product

Re: [Biofuel] pump washing

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,
 Pump washing appeals to me 
in principle. A nice closed system. No welding involved. I can see that the mix 
is homogenized and can even see the separation as it occurs through the clear 
vinyl tubing. In my only attempt at it my wash water remained milk white even 
after 7washes.good separation of water & BD, but the wash water stayed 
white. 
 It was only a 18L batch. 
The pump was a 1/2hp clearwater pump. The BD washed very easily when I switched 
to stir washing, but upon reprocessing 1L of washed and dried BD I got some 
glycerine. I was being rough with the product of an incomplete 
reaction. 
 I think I understand your 
wash setup, but don't understand the actual process. 
 When you pump wash do you 
stop the pump when all the water has been pumped in from the bottom or do you 
continue pumping to achieve a homogeneous mixture of water and BD? 
  Couldn't the water 
be introduced from outside the tank while the BD is circulating? . in a 
manner similar to how we add methoxide during reaction?
 I have been making quality 
BD on my recent batches and have 75L in my settling tank. I found a small pump 
that pumps about 3L/min. I'm tempted to connect it to my wash tank and give it a 
go. See if using a smaller pump and high quality BD I can use pump washing. 

 And Joe, Thanks for the 
visual aids for the titration station. If I ever get the time, maybe I'll give 
it a try.
 
 
Best Wishes,
 
Tom
- Original Message - 

  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 12:32 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] pump washing
  Hi Jonathan;One suggestion for you.  I pump wash 
  my fuel and my pump picks up fuel from above the water level and dumps it at 
  the top of the tank.   I also have a fitting at the bottom of the 
  tank with a ball valve connected to a plastic 1/4 inch line that feeds into a 
  tee at the inlet of the pump.  The judicious use of that ball valve is 
  critical to a good wash, especially in the early washes.  Basically I 
  turn the pump on and let it recirculate the fuel and then while watching the 
  boundary between the fuel and water in the clear plastic tube at the bottom of 
  the tank I slowly crack the ball valve open until I see the water start to 
  slowly move torard the pump inlet.  Too much water will result in 
  emulsion at the pump impeller.  As the fuel gets cleaner at later wash 
  stages it will tolerate more water.  1/4 inch poly line is enough to 
  carry plenty (too much actually) of 
  water.CheersJoeJonathan Schearer wrote:
  
Is anyone using circulating pump to wash their fuel?  I performed 
a wash test on my first batch from my processor and it seperated 
nicely.  I then pumped it into my wash tank added equal volume of water 
and circulated it from bottom back into top of tank.  The water was 
cold the first time and I changed that to warm water for the rest of the 
washes.  I had to was the fuel 5 times before it was acceptable to 
me.  I let the pump run too long the first time-45 minutes.  It 
homogenized quite well:)  The next 4 times I only ran it for about 5 
minutes or just until mixture homogenized.  Is the pump mixing the wash 
too well?  I have not tried the bubble wash or the stirring 
method.  I guess I thought that the pump would be similar to the 
stirrer.  Any thoughts?  


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FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. 
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