Re: [Biofuel] Closing the Garden - Ottawa version

[M&K DuPree]

Hi Darryl...and 
Robert...your posts on the garden are beautiful...please let us hear more, 
whatever thoughts you may have, experiences, tips, meditations on the 
wonderments (and sorrows) of gardening, etc etc.  No, it isn't biodiesel, 
but it's definitely "biofuel."  I'm going outside now to get my hands 
"dirty."  Thanks so much for the inspirations...oh...and Thomas Kelly too, 
forking his "horseshit."  Thank you all.  Mike 
DuPree
 
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2006 6:49 
PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Closing the Garden - 
Ottawa version
> Appropriately, I spent a few hours on 
Thanksgiving day clearing most of> the plant matter from the garden and 
putting it on the compost pile.> > Robert, your recent posts have 
been an inspiration.  Thank you.> > Our garden did not fare 
as well this year as in past years.  Mostly due to> lack of 
attention on my part, although not enough rain followed by too> much rain 
wasn't helping either.  Still, we had more tomatoes than we knew> 
what to do with, even after giving them away to neighbours and taking 
them> to work for barbecues and so on.  The yellow cherry tomatoes 
were a> special success.  So sweet.  My son took away a good 
haul of carrots,> which he is enjoying immensely.  Enough beets to 
make into baby food for> my grandson, several feeds of peas in the garden 
and enough yellow beans> to even make it to the dinner table a couple of 
times (after some serious> consumption in the yard first).  Squash 
was a disappointment - lots of> fruit, but none big enough to justify 
harvesting.  The radish and lettuce> either drowned or were 
scavenged by local fauna.  The spinach did not take> at all.  
The jalapenos were bountiful, and I had been told I couldn't grow> those 
this far north.  The raspberries did well in the spring, but no> 
autumn crop to speak of.> > I think the squash needs more sun, 
which means I need to find some> vegetables and fruits that can do with 
less sun for certain parts of the> garden.  I'm also going to have 
to trim back my beautiful maple tree (a> rescued weed from years ago), to 
let more sun reach the garden.  Still, it> will continue to provide 
good shade over the park bench we have outside> the fence so neighbours 
can sit and rest if they so desire.  After reading> Robert's posts, 
I wonder if I should have gone for a fruit tree instead,> perhaps 
cherry.> > However, the responsbility for the failures is all 
mine.  The garden> simply did not get the time it needed, as I 
elected to focus on other> things much of this year.  (Perhaps more 
on those in days to come - I have> already told you about the electric 
bicycle victory, and a related> campaign has already been 
joined.)> > This year, I have been reading the Square Foot Garden 
by Mel Bartholomew> (Rodale).  So full of small truths, I think it 
will transform how I garden> from now on.  The line about typical 
residential gardening just being> industrial gardening on a small scale 
really hit home.  I have not> finished the book yet (priorities 
again), but already I feel comfortable> recommending it.  As did the 
being overwhelmed by harvest when it's ready,> but having nothing fresh 
to eat before and after.> > While I'm making compost, I'm still 
hauling it in by the pick-up truck> load each year to continue amending 
the soil.  And at least two trips a> year go to gardens other than 
my own.  At least the truck is now running> on 20% biodiesel from a 
local supplier.> > This summer, we managed a vacation in Nova 
Scotia, with a quick trip to> Prince Edward Island.  We visited 
Vesey Seed, and I have a whole array of> new seeds to experiment with for 
next year.> > Any recommendations on materials to build the raised 
beds (4 feet square> and a foot high)?  Cost and appearance are both 
concerns.> > Too wet now to go out and finish the job, and rain is 
predicted for the> next five days.  Time to work on other 
things.  Like sending out overdue> e-mails.> > 
Darryl> > > > 
___> Biofuel mailing 
list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> 
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html> > Search the combined Biofuel and 
Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/> >
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[Biofuel] Closing the Garden - Ottawa version

[econogics]

Appropriately, I spent a few hours on Thanksgiving day clearing most of
the plant matter from the garden and putting it on the compost pile.

Robert, your recent posts have been an inspiration.  Thank you.

Our garden did not fare as well this year as in past years.  Mostly due to
lack of attention on my part, although not enough rain followed by too
much rain wasn't helping either.  Still, we had more tomatoes than we knew
what to do with, even after giving them away to neighbours and taking them
to work for barbecues and so on.  The yellow cherry tomatoes were a
special success.  So sweet.  My son took away a good haul of carrots,
which he is enjoying immensely.  Enough beets to make into baby food for
my grandson, several feeds of peas in the garden and enough yellow beans
to even make it to the dinner table a couple of times (after some serious
consumption in the yard first).  Squash was a disappointment - lots of
fruit, but none big enough to justify harvesting.  The radish and lettuce
either drowned or were scavenged by local fauna.  The spinach did not take
at all.  The jalapenos were bountiful, and I had been told I couldn't grow
those this far north.  The raspberries did well in the spring, but no
autumn crop to speak of.

I think the squash needs more sun, which means I need to find some
vegetables and fruits that can do with less sun for certain parts of the
garden.  I'm also going to have to trim back my beautiful maple tree (a
rescued weed from years ago), to let more sun reach the garden.  Still, it
will continue to provide good shade over the park bench we have outside
the fence so neighbours can sit and rest if they so desire.  After reading
Robert's posts, I wonder if I should have gone for a fruit tree instead,
perhaps cherry.

However, the responsbility for the failures is all mine.  The garden
simply did not get the time it needed, as I elected to focus on other
things much of this year.  (Perhaps more on those in days to come - I have
already told you about the electric bicycle victory, and a related
campaign has already been joined.)

This year, I have been reading the Square Foot Garden by Mel Bartholomew
(Rodale).  So full of small truths, I think it will transform how I garden
from now on.  The line about typical residential gardening just being
industrial gardening on a small scale really hit home.  I have not
finished the book yet (priorities again), but already I feel comfortable
recommending it.  As did the being overwhelmed by harvest when it's ready,
but having nothing fresh to eat before and after.

While I'm making compost, I'm still hauling it in by the pick-up truck
load each year to continue amending the soil.  And at least two trips a
year go to gardens other than my own.  At least the truck is now running
on 20% biodiesel from a local supplier.

This summer, we managed a vacation in Nova Scotia, with a quick trip to
Prince Edward Island.  We visited Vesey Seed, and I have a whole array of
new seeds to experiment with for next year.

Any recommendations on materials to build the raised beds (4 feet square
and a foot high)?  Cost and appearance are both concerns.

Too wet now to go out and finish the job, and rain is predicted for the
next five days.  Time to work on other things.  Like sending out overdue
e-mails.

Darryl



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[Biofuel] Herbs as Medicine: Evidence for Saw Palmetto

[Thomas Kelly]

Hello to All,
 Prof. Bob Allen asked for 
evidence re: effectiveness of herbs as medicines. I don't think that's 
unreasonable to ask. I've been busy, but finally got around to looking into 
it a bit for myself.
 
On 9/20/06 Bob wrote:
 "The ones I have heard of most recently which have 
undergone rigorous testing have produced mixed results at best."re: saw palemetto for prostate problems  http://www.herbalgram.org/default.asp?c=sawpalmBPHIn the new trial reported in NEJM, conducted at the University of 
California at San Francisco, 225 men (112 in saw palmetto group; 113 placebo) 49 
years of age or older with moderate to severe BPH were randomly assigned to 
groups who took a leading saw palmetto extract (160mg twice daily, the normal 
dose shown effective in over 21 clinical trials) or a matching placebo capsule. 
The patients made 8 study visits over a one-year period to assess changes in the 
AUASI scores (this is the primary outcome of the trial), maximal urine flow, 
post-void residual urine volume, prostate size, and other health-related 
outcomes. On average, participants in both the saw palmetto and the placebo 
groups improved over the one-year duration of the trial, but there were no 
significant differences in the rates of improvement overall between the two 
groups as measured by the AUASI."
--
 Note that the study 
included only men with moderate to severe BPH. It did not include any men 
with mild to moderate symptoms. It is possible that Saw Palmetto is not 
effective in advanced stages of BPH; at least not in the same dose as 
recommended for treating mild to moderate BPH. Because this was designed to test the effectiveness of Saw Palmetto, it 
did not include any pharmaceuticals, so we don't know if they would have been 
effective either. 
 
The site that Bob refers us to, herbalgram.org, is presented by 
the American Botanical Council (Referring to the article in the NEJM 
sited above):

“Our primary concern with this trial is the relatively advanced 
condition of the prostate problems in many of the men who were tested,” 
said Mark Blumenthal, Founder and Executive Director of ABC. 

“Most of the official international monographs that recognize the benefits of 
saw palmetto do so for stage 1 and 2 of BPH, i.e., the mild to moderate range of 
BPH symptoms,” said Blumenthal. “These include monographs from the German 
government and the World Health Organization.” 
(and)
"In this trial, minor adverse effects in the saw palmetto and placebo 
groups were nearly equal (saw palmetto, 39; placebo, 34) — evidence of the 
safety of saw palmetto. However, there were almost twice as many serious 
adverse effects in the placebo group (11) as in the saw palmetto group (6), 
suggesting that the patient population may have had other serious illnesses, 
possibly interfering in the attempt to treat the moderate-to-severe BPH 
symptoms." 

    There are numerous studies 
involving men with mild to moderate symptoms of BHP. Some of the studies done with saw palmetto were financed either by companies 
who market this extract, such as Pierre Fabre Medicament, or by pharmaceutical 
companies, such as Merck, who have developed competing drugs that treat prostate 
enlargement. Merck has the drug Proscar. Not surprisingly, the results of 
studies obtained by Merck scientists on saw palmetto are often in disagreement 
with the results obtained by scientists working under the auspices of saw 
palmetto-selling companies. 
  These are a few 
of the (independent?) studies suggesting that Saw Palmetto is safe and effective 
in the treatment of mild to mderate BPH. 
 
1. Randomized trial of a combination of natural products (cernitin, 
saw palmetto, B-sitosterol, vitamin E) on symptoms of benign prostatic 
hyperplasia. Int Urol Nephrol 2001;33(2):217-25. 
Because benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH) is relatively common, it is 
important to discover safe and effective means to treat this often debilitating 
perturbation. Accordingly, we examined the effectiveness of a combination of 
natural products (cernitin, saw palmetto, B-sitosterol, vitamin E) in treating 
symptoms of BPH. We undertook a randomized, placebo-controlled, double-blind 
study. Patients received either placebo or the combined natural products for 3 
months. Nocturia showed a markedly significant decrease in severity in patients 
receiving the combined natural products compared to those taking placebo. 
Daytime frequency was also lessened significantly. PSA measurements, maximal and 
average urinary flow rates, and residual volumes showed no statistically 
significant differences. When taken for 3 months, a combination of natural 
products (cernitin, saw palmetto, B-sitosterol, vitamin E) compared to placebo 
can significantly lessen nocturia and freque

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

no, Terry, you need to look "outside the book"  he went to prison for 
larceny- he stole money from people. The only big company he has headed 
was is own larcenous enterprises.

  http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0826051trudeau1.html


" he was 28 when he copped an April 1991 plea to two counts of credit 
card fraud. Trudeau's indictment, a copy of which you'll find below, was 
filed in Massachusetts and charged him with using "unauthorized access 
devices" to defraud American Express out of $122,735.68 (he also 
swindled about five grand from several banks, including Chemical and 
Citibank). Over five years, Trudeau, now 42, used false names and social 
security numbers to secure charge cards which he then ferociously milked.

  Trudeau was sentenced to two years in prison and ordered to make 
restitution on his credit card schemes. After serving 21 months in Uncle 
Sam's custody, Trudeau was released in August 1993 and placed on two 
years probation.


did you happen to look at any of the reports from individuals at 
ripoffreport.com   ?






Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for 
> Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.
> 
> Terry Dyck
> 
> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500
>>
>> Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>> to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>> you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>> Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>>
>>   Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>> seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>> acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>>
>> here is the ftc statement
>>
>> http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>>
>>
>> and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>> federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>> treated by the man.
>>
>>
>> http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>>
>> you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>>
>>
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Hi Bob,
>>>
>>> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>> Kevin
>>> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial 
>> world.
>>> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>> corrupt
>>> work to please the share holders of his company.
>> then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>> mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>> whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>>
>>
>>He was expected to do this
>>> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA 
>> quite
>>> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products 
>> banned
>>> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line 
>> of
>>> Drug companies profits.
>> got a verifiable example?
>>
>>
>>> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can
>>> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid
>>> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, 
>> etc.
>>
>> now here we agree.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
 From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
 WasTestimonials as Evidence)
 Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500

 That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is 
>> what
 I should have sent:

 Howdy Terry,

 Terry Dyck wrote:
> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe
 and D.
> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good 
>> science
 and
> bad science.
 bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
 via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
 There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.


   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much
 published
> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical 
>> corportations.
 or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
 array of hucksters?


So
> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
 not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
 much d

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[doug swanson]

a friend lent me the book, and after paging through it, I decided that 
the information, which can all be found via google, was cleverly 
embedded in a multi-level marketing scheme system...  Wiki seems to have 
the same sort of comments about the "Nutrition for Life"   
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kevin_Trudeau
I believe that nutrition is indeed the first step in healthy living, and 
a series of steps in avoiding any need for medical attention, (barring 
getting hit by a bus, or meteor...)  But this book made my stomach twist.

doug swanson


bob allen wrote:

>Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due 
>to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, 
>you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. 
>Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>
>  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever 
>seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of 
>acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>here is the ftc statement
>
>http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>
>
>and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a 
>federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been 
>treated by the man.
>
>
>http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>
>you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>
>
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
>  
>
>>Hi Bob,
>>
>>The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
>>Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
>>Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
>>work to please the share holders of his company.
>>
>>
>
>then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't 
>mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question 
>whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>
>
>   He was expected to do this
>  
>
>>corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
>>often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
>>for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
>>Drug companies profits.
>>
>>
>
>got a verifiable example?
>
>
>  
>
>>You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
>>influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
>>scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.
>>
>>
>
>now here we agree.
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>>
>>
>>>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>>>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>>>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>>
>>>That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>>>I should have sent:
>>>
>>>Howdy Terry,
>>>
>>>Terry Dyck wrote:
>>>  
>>>
Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 


>>>and D.
>>>  
>>>
Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 


>>>and
>>>  
>>>
bad science.


>>>bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>>>via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>>>There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>>>
>>>
>>>  When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
>>>  
>>>
be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 


>>>published
>>>  
>>>
science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.


>>>or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>>>array of hucksters?
>>>
>>>
>>>   So
>>>  
>>>
we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.


>>>not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
>>>much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>  This is not
>>>  
>>>
good for human health.

Terry Dyck




>From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
>
>Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who 
>  
>
>>>can be
>>>  
>>>
>bought to produce desired
>outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained 
>  
>
>>>to
>>>  
>>>
>run computer
>models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate 
>  
>
>>>more
>>>  
>>>
>closely to
>reality. R

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Bob,

Kevin Trudeau went to prison because he was caught doing corrupt work for 
Pharmacitical corporations.  That info is in his book.

Terry Dyck



>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 13:40:52 -0500
>
>Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due
>to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials,
>you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low.
>Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>
>   Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever
>seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of
>acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.
>
>here is the ftc statement
>
>http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm
>
>
>and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a
>federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been
>treated by the man.
>
>
>http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0
>
>you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.
>
>
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
> > Hi Bob,
> >
> > The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by 
>Kevin
> > Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial 
>world.
> > Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of 
>corrupt
> > work to please the share holders of his company.
>
>then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't
>mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question
>whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.
>
>
>He was expected to do this
> > corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA 
>quite
> > often picks on small natural food companies and has there products 
>banned
> > for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line 
>of
> > Drug companies profits.
>
>got a verifiable example?
>
>
> > You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can
> > influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid
> > scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, 
>etc.
>
>now here we agree.
>
>
>
>
> >
> >
> >> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
> >> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> >> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
> >>
> >> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is 
>what
> >> I should have sent:
> >>
> >> Howdy Terry,
> >>
> >> Terry Dyck wrote:
> >>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe
> >> and D.
> >>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good 
>science
> >> and
> >>> bad science.
> >> bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
> >> via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
> >> There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
> >>
> >>
> >>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> >>> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much
> >> published
> >>> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical 
>corportations.
> >> or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
> >> array of hucksters?
> >>
> >>
> >>So
> >>> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
> >> not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
> >> much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>   This is not
> >>> good for human health.
> >>>
> >>> Terry Dyck
> >>>
> >>>
>  From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>  To: 
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
>  WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>  Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
> 
>  Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who
> >> can be
>  bought to produce desired
>  outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am 
>trained
> >> to
>  run computer
>  models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate
> >> more
>  closely to
>  reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
>  Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour
> >> knowledge
>  into hung-over
>  college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, 
>is
> >> awe
>  inspiring at times.
>  Peace, D. Mindock
> 
> 
>  - Original Message -
>  From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  To: 
>  Sent: Thur

Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[bob allen]

Terry, are you aware that the FTC has banned him from infomercials due 
to many many false statements? If you have ever seen any infomercials, 
you should know that the standard of acceptability very, very low. 
Well, Trudeau went below that.


  Or that he has spent time in prison for felony fraud? If you have ever 
seen any infomercials, you should know that the standard of 
acceptability very, very low.  Well, Trudeau went below that.

here is the ftc statement

http://www.ftc.gov/opa/2004/09/trudeaucoral.htm


and here is a little vox populi. Note this is not big pharma or a 
federal agency, but rather individuals talking about how they have been 
treated by the man.


http://www.ripoffreport.com/results.asp?q1=ALL&q5=kevin+trudeau&submit2=Search%21&q4=&q6=&q3=&q2=&q7=&searchtype=0

you could have picked any number of better examples than this guy.



Terry Dyck wrote:
> Hi Bob,
> 
> The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
> Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
> Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
> work to please the share holders of his company.

then he is corrupt to do it.  and just what company was that?  I don't 
mean to imply that that sort of thing is not done, just that I question 
whether Trudeau was a CEO of a huge Pharma.


   He was expected to do this
> corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
> often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
> for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
> Drug companies profits.

got a verifiable example?


> You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
> influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
> scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.

now here we agree.




> 
> 
>> From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>> Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>>
>> That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>> I should have sent:
>>
>> Howdy Terry,
>>
>> Terry Dyck wrote:
>>> Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 
>> and D.
>>> Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 
>> and
>>> bad science.
>> bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>> via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>> There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>>
>>
>>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
>>> be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 
>> published
>>> science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>> or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>> array of hucksters?
>>
>>
>>So
>>> we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
>> not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
>> much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
>>
>>
>>
>>   This is not
>>> good for human health.
>>>
>>> Terry Dyck
>>>
>>>
 From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
 To: 
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
 WasTestimonials as Evidence)
 Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500

 Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who 
>> can be
 bought to produce desired
 outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained 
>> to
 run computer
 models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate 
>> more
 closely to
 reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
 Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour 
>> knowledge
 into hung-over
 college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is 
>> awe
 inspiring at times.
 Peace, D. Mindock


 - Original Message -
 From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 To: 
 Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>> Was
 Testimonials as Evidence)


> Hi Kurt;
>
> Pardon my snipping style but.
>
> Kurt Nolte wrote:
> snip
>
>> On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>> Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my 
>> head.
>> These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>> herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>> efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharma

Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper tobe concernedwith.

[Thomas Kelly]

Joe,
 I tested the two month old 
BD. There was no precipitate. It was not noticeably cloudy. It may not have been 
as sparkling clear as it was when tested two months ago. It's hard to say. 
Nothing striking  ...  maybe just the fact that the temp is now 
cooler.
 Although I would prefer to 
use BD made from soy oil within a month, I think it will keep longer  
  just keep copper, zinc, etc away from it.
   
Tom
 


  - Original Message - 
  From: 
  Joe Street 
  To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
  
  Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 4:24 
  PM
  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Polymerization of 
  BD- more than copper tobe concernedwith.
  Hi Tom;Just for giggles, if you get time I'd be curious 
  if the methanol test still passes on the 2 month old B100.  I assume it 
  will still oxidize even without the copper in constant contact.  There is 
  sure to be metal ions in the fuel from various sources.  Now that the 
  cold is here and I can only run B50 I'll slow down my production so I don't 
  get ahead of myself like I did last winter.JoeThomas Kelly 
  wrote:
  Joe,
 Keep in mind that I had a 1M. piece of copper tubing submerged in the 
BD for over 3 months. I have a cubie of BD that was still crystal clear 
after 2 months (the longest I have stored BD other than the polymerized 
stuff) and it will go in the car.
 The 50+ gal (200L) of BD in question is burning in my oil-fired boiler. 
I'm about half way through it and with the temps getting cooler it should be 
gone soon. Good riddance to it.
 I like the silver lining you found in what looked like a grey cloud.
  Tom
- Original Message - 
From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 1:12 PM
Subject: [Biofuel] Polymerization of BD- more than copper to be 
concernedwith.


  
While looking for info on IR spectra, I found this excellent paper;

http://nationalbiodieselboard.com/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/19970612_gen-234.pdf#search=%22biodiesel%20methyl%20ester%20wavenumber%22

Which talks about issues surrounding fuel contamination and deposits.
An earlier thread had comments from Tom Kelly regarding copper ions
causing polymerization.  According to this paper other metals such as
aluminum and iron can catalyze polymerization when biodiesel is stored.
This news is good and bad. The bad news is I think it is impossible to
avoid these metal ions.  Even if the system is all plastic or plastic
lined I bet the WVO feedstocks are already chocked with metal, and the
fuel will pick up metals in the vehicle anyways. This means that
biodiesel should not be stored.  DUH. Didn't I read that on J2F years
ago? The good news is that the polymerization is slow at room
temperature. This is also good news because it means that the folks who
are trying to produce massive quantities of biodiesel are going to have
a BIG problem that they just cannot solve because they need to store and
transport the product. And their product has a poor shelf life. Hmmm. Of
course the home brewer who can make fuel locally and use it immediately
doesn't have to worry. Yy. Chalk one up for sustainability.
Uh I guess we already knew this eh Keith?  But I never thought of it as
a problem for big oil until now.

Joe


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Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia WasTestimonials as Evidence)

[Terry Dyck]

Hi Bob,

The book titled "Natural Cures they don't want you to know about", by Kevin 
Trudeau explains examples of what really goes on in our commercial world.  
Kevin was a CEO of a huge Pharmactical corporation and did a lot of corrupt 
work to please the share holders of his company.  He was expected to do this 
corrupt work in order to keep his job.  He also explains that the FDA quite 
often picks on small natural food companies and has there products banned 
for no health reason but because they may interfere with the bottom line of 
Drug companies profits.
You are right, Bob, members on this list do understand how profits can 
influence information.  Exxon Oil and other oil corporations have paid 
scientists for years to publish untruthful info about Global Warming, etc.


>From: bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>WasTestimonials as Evidence)
>Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 15:58:51 -0500
>
>That last one from me was dashed off a little too hastily.  Here is what
>I should have sent:
>
>Howdy Terry,
>
>Terry Dyck wrote:
> > Because my name was mentioned in this thread I would like to join Joe 
>and D.
> > Mindock in stating that I to believe in science.  There is good science 
>and
> > bad science.
>
>bad science has little meaning in my mind.   One can pursue information
>via methods that attempt to control for confounding variables or not.
>There is hype, marketing, downright lies etc. but that is not science.
>
>
>   When it comes to the western world and health money seems to
> > be a huge factor and prevention of disease does not get as much 
>published
> > science in a good light as does big profit pharmacetical corportations.
>
>or big profit for little guys like mercola, hulda clark, and an endless
>array of hucksters?
>
>
>So
> > we seem to mostly here what the big corporations have to say.
>
>not on this list, huh.  But we do see mercola et al. I really don't see
>much difference, other than greater regulation of big pharma.
>
>
>
>   This is not
> > good for human health.
> >
> > Terry Dyck
> >
> >
> >> From: "D. Mindock" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> To: 
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia
> >> WasTestimonials as Evidence)
> >> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 02:33:15 -0500
> >>
> >> Yep, I too admire scientists, real truth seeking ones, not those who 
>can be
> >> bought to produce desired
> >> outcomes. My degree is in science, atmospheric. Basically I am trained 
>to
> >> run computer
> >> models of the atmosphere and to enhance the models so they correlate 
>more
> >> closely to
> >> reality. Reality, aka Nature, is the gold standard.
> >> Bob is wound a bit tight but that might come from trying to pour 
>knowledge
> >> into hung-over
> >> college students. His love of data, results from scientific studies, is 
>awe
> >> inspiring at times.
> >> Peace, D. Mindock
> >>
> >>
> >> - Original Message -
> >> From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> To: 
> >> Sent: Thursday, October 05, 2006 8:34 AM
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Closed-Mindedness (Was Hypnosis as Anesthesia 
>Was
> >> Testimonials as Evidence)
> >>
> >>
> >>> Hi Kurt;
> >>>
> >>> Pardon my snipping style but.
> >>>
> >>> Kurt Nolte wrote:
> >>> snip
> >>>
>  On the other side we have his opponents, among them Joe Street, Terry
>  Dyck, Mike Dupree and D. Mindock, to name a few off the top of my 
>head.
>  These people seem to be, to the best of my knowledge, claiming that
>  herbs (The topic at hand) are the /only/ things that are truly
>  efficacious as medicinal compounds, and that pharmaceuticals produced 
>by
>  synthetic processes just don't hack it.
> 
> 
> >>> Actually I don't believe I ever said that!  I am opposing Bob to some
> >>> degree but that doesn't mean I said what you are attributing to me, or 
>I
> >>> guess more correctly that you should be lumping me in with what you 
>are
> >>> saying about the others.  I am very scientifically inclined, I run a
> >>> university lab for pete's sake as well but I am also a sceptic of the
> >>> idea that science is the be all and end all or that it has all the
> >>> answers.  I still have great respect for science and believe that one
> >>> day it may encompass things that it currently can't explain.  All I am
> >>> suggesting to Bob is that even though science cannot explain something
> >>> at the present time, that does not mean it must necessarily be
> >>> rejected.  I think this is the only point on which Bob and I are in
> >>> dissagreement.  I also wouldn't say it is fair to be calling Bob 
>closed
> >>> minded.  Stubborn yes but narrow or closed minded, no.
> >>>
> >>> Joe
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >> ___
> >> Biofuel mailing list
> >> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> 
>htt

[Biofuel] American Prison Camps Are on the Way

[D. Mindock]

WRT the Bill of Rights, we Americans have been stripped of nine out of the 
ten. So Dubya is becoming
our home grown dictator. And the writ of habeas corpus is now history. And 
still, Dubya will
be prowling for more liberties to strip from us. The right to an honest 
election is in severe
trouble, thanks to his corporate buddies in Diebold and ES&S. Nov 7 will be 
a test on how
well the NSA can hack the election and make it appear legit. The Repugs 
should lose
this election by a mile. I'd hate to see them just edge out a win since it 
would be possible
only if the fix is in. How can we expect volunteer workers to protect the 
machines against
the likes of the NSA and the Diebold experts?   Peace, D. Mindock
==

American Prison Camps Are on the Way
By Marjorie Cohn, AlterNet. Posted October 9, 2006.


Kellogg Brown & Root, a Halliburton subsidiary, is constructing a huge 
facility at an undisclosed location to hold tens of thousands of Bush's 
"unlawful enemy combatants." Americans are certain to be among them.

More at:  http://alternet.org/rights/42458/

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