Re: [Biofuel] Soap formation

[Ken Provost]

On Dec 28, 2006, at 7:31 PM, Logan Vilas wrote:



If you have a complete reaction to biodiesel will soap form from
the biodiesel? I mean if you put lye and water into it would it form
soap or would it be incapable of forming soap?



Hmmm...no firsthand experience of that happening, but I think
lye should be able to break off the methanol from the biodiesel
just as it can break off the glycerol from a triglyceride in normal
soap production.

-K___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Doug, Andrew et al.
Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an
energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain
the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar
cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck !
Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message - 
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis


> What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual
> motion machine.
>
> You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen,
> then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no
> surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient,
> which they are very far from being.
>
> Doug Woodard
> St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
> > Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world
> >
> > This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an
> > electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
> > http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
> >
> > What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andrew
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Andrew Katerman]

ok doug,
thanks I think that makes a little more sense, I hadnt taken that into
account.
Andrew


On 12/28/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual
motion machine.

You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen,
then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no
surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient,
which they are very far from being.

Doug Woodard
St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada


> Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world
>
> This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an
> electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
> http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
>
> What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
>
> Thanks,
> Andrew



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Andrew Katerman]

If that is the case, how do you explain a car that runs off of this? I have
seen video, and from what I understand it runs off only the normal battery
used to start the car and the hydrogen remove from sea water. I am not an
expert on this at all, but it definately interests me. By the way, where do
you get the efficiences for an electrolysis reactor?

Andrew


On 12/28/06, Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


The problem is this.
The electrolyser is 70% efficient best case.
The engine is 30% efficient best case - in use probably 8%
So we have .7 x .3 = .21 conversion of electricity to rear wheel power
best case.
And what losses are associated with the electricity?
they make the 21 % even lower and what powered the electricity?

Websites like this are a cruel joke at best.

If photovoltaics were "free" and ran an electrolyzer during the day to
charge a hydride tank that you could refill from when you got home then a
hydrogen vehicle would be viable.
Better yet a fuel cell to escape the low efficiency of thermal processes.
Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Then a fuel cell electric
car. Or 2 battery banks rotated daily - that may get you above 80% on
storage/transport of power. Likewise 90% on electric motors can be achieved.
Burning hydrogen in internal combustion is wasteful.

Kirk

*Andrew Katerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>* wrote:

 Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world

This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an
electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm

What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?

Thanks,
Andrew
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Bill Ellis]

Hi Jan, Andrew and all
   
  If you go to solar, as doug pointed out, then you have lost that simple idea 
of just pumping water into the fuel tank and it turns to hydrogen/oxygen mix on 
demand. Now you would have to design and build a storage tank to store the 
hydrogen in when the sun was out. As I understand it storing hydrogen is not an 
easy task, there are many problems, keeping it in the tank is among them. As 
you probably know hydrogen atom is very small therefore most materials are 
infact pourous(spelled wrong I think) so the gas goes right through them. A few 
years ago I got really interested in this idea, like a fool I even went and 
bought a book, (I use the turm loosely) it was really an 8 page pamphlet and a 
waste of 20 bucks. I carefully built a reactor as per instructions (somewhat 
scaled down) about 1/3 the size of the one in the 'book'. It was quite 
impressive looking and I had visions of FREE fuel. Well you know what is said 
about a FREE RIDE. After about 10 minutes at 12 volts (I had
 two balloons hooked securely to the outputs on the reactor, one for hydrogen 
the other for oxygen) the hydrogen balloon was about the size of a baseball the 
oxygen a little bigger than a softball. I even built a 555 timer circuit to 
pulse 19Hz to the electrodes (read somewhere that this would help crack the 
water using less power) to no measurable avail. The only increase was detected 
with an increase in voltage. I don't know about you folks but I hate to try and 
squeeze into a car that only used enough hydrogen to fill a soccar ball ( about 
2/3's bigger than a baseball) in ten minutes.  Buy the way the hydrogen ballon 
was limp and empty in less than 1 hour. I checked it for leaks with air and 
there were non. 
   
  Andrew, just 2 cents from someone that fell for the hype!! Please don't fall 
for the same thing.
   
  Wildbill

Jan Warnqvist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hello Doug, Andrew et al.
Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an
energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain
the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar
cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck !
Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message - 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis


> What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual
> motion machine.
>
> You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen,
> then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no
> surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient,
> which they are very far from being.
>
> Doug Woodard
> St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
> > Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world
> >
> > This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an
> > electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
> > http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
> >
> > What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andrew
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/




Wildbill
Sutton.VT 

 __
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Soap formation

[JAMES PHELPS]

This is, I believe, precisely why you do not want more lye than is required 
and why measurement of lye in proportion is fundamental.  I find it is 
better to undershoot a reaction and add more to complete than end up with 
too much to start.

Jim


>From: "Logan Vilas" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Reply-To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>To: 
>Subject: [Biofuel] Soap formation
>Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2006 21:31:26 -0600
>
>If you have a complete reaction to biodiesel will soap form from the
>biodiesel? I mean if you put lye and water into it would it form soap or
>would it be incapable of forming soap?
>
>Logan vilas
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Darryl McMahon]

If you are talking about the water car - it can't work without breaking 
the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics.  Given the vague reference to 
gas/water hybrid, I'm not clear what they're talking about.

Please take careful note of the caveats on the referenced Web site, 
e.g., "So although we cannot guarantee it, we believe these plans will 
enable you to build a car that runs on water" and "it is suggested you 
try this out to begin with on a second vehicle you own, one that you 
don't need to live with everyday, until you perfect this technology."

Electrolysis is about 70% efficient under optimum, laboratory 
conditions.  In large scale, commercial operations, about 60%.  In a 
mobile application, based on variable voltages (e.g., car alternator 
with voltage regulator affected by engine operating speed), I can't 
imagine it exceeding 50%, and I doubt it will do that well.  That is 
also assuming distilled water, not tap or sea water.  Electrolysis of 
salt will lead either to electroplating on the electrodes - reducing 
effectiveness, or production of other gases, e.g., chlorine gas from 
sodium-chloride - table salt, or both.

Assuming 100% effectiveness of storing and feeding of the hydrogen to 
the combustion chamber (highly unlikely as hydrogen will easily leak out 
of seals that are suitable for liquid fuels), running the unmodified 
gasoline engine on hydrogen introduces some additional issues.  The 
compression ratio is not optimized for hydrogen.  Hydrogen embrittles 
metals typically used in automotive engines.  The hydrogen should burn 
hotter than gasoline, which will affect the spark plugs and lubricating 
oil.  However, we are still up against Carnot as a theoretical limit for 
efficiency, and we are not going to even get close in this scenario.

Now, we have to take some of the power from the heat engine to power the 
parasitic alternator to generate electricity to produce more hydrogen 
via electrolysis.  Assuming the belt is properly tensioned, it will be 
about 95% efficient turning the alternator.  The alternator is likely 
about 60-70% efficient, assuming standard automotive technology (diode 
losses, windage losses, bearing losses, large air gap, etc).  More 
losses via the voltage regulator.  Now we have the electricity to start 
the electrolysis reaction, completing the energy cycle.

We lost over 50% in electrolysis, at least 60% in the heat engine, and 
at least 40% in running the alternator.  There may be additional sources 
of loss, not even allowing for leakage.  So, best case (0.5 x 0.4 x 0.6 
= 0.12) is 12% efficiency in the cycle, or 88% conversion losses.

So unless you can explain where the at least factor of 9 over-unity step 
is introduced, my understanding of the system says this can't work.

For more on why the hydrogen energy cycle is a loser and why the 
hydrogen economy won't work (and other things that do), I refer you to 
my book, The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy.

Darryl McMahon


Jan Warnqvist wrote:
> Hello Doug, Andrew et al.
> Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an
> energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain
> the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar
> cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck !
> Jan Warnqvist
> AGERATEC AB
> 
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 
> + 46 554 201 89
> +46 70 499 38 45
> - Original Message - 
> From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: 
> Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
> 
> 
>> What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual
>> motion machine.
>>
>> You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen,
>> then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no
>> surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient,
>> which they are very far from being.
>>
>> Doug Woodard
>> St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>>
>>
>>> Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world
>>>
>>> This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an
>>> electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
>>> http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
>>>
>>> What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Andrew
>>


-- 
Darryl McMahon
It's your planet.  If you won't look after it, who will?

The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (now in print and eBook)
http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] The History of U.S.Torture

[Keith Addison]

It's past time to put a stop to the CIA and all its ugly sisters. 
They serve nobody's interests but their own, they're no good to 
anyone. It must surely be plain by now for all to see that they're 
totally useless at what they're supposed to be doing, and what they 
do instead is evil. They've been the cause of too many disasters for 
too long, with more looming on the horizon. Time to stop it, and talk 
and promises won't do it - dismember them, rip them apart and chuck 
their guts out for the vultures. For starters. It needs a permanent 
job, we have to be adamant about it, like Dylan said: "And I'll stand 
on your grave 'til I'm sure that you're dead." And stay dead.

Best

Keith


>This is incredibly frightening. We Australians have a citizen (even if he may
>be guilty of a crime: even perhaps his own stupidity) who is held in
>Guantanamo Bay. Our Government, led by an ultra-conservative refuses to let
>David Hicks be tried under Australian law, but lets him remain as the last
>(to my knowledge) person of European background held at Guantanamo Bay.
> There is no way David will ever receive a fair trial in a military US court.
>David should be returned to Australia, to face a civil court if he has
>actually broken any Australian laws. David has been held in the US, without
>charge, tortured (by the methods mentioned below), and treated inhumanely for
>the past 5 years.
> Please free David Hicks from US custody now! Treat the other detainees
>fairly, & give them a fair civil trial.
>
>
>regards Doug
>
>
>
>On Friday 29 December 2006 3:00, Keith Addison wrote:
> > http://www.japanfocus.org/products/details/2291
> > Japan Focus
> > The History of U.S.Torture
> >
> > By Alfred W. McCoy
> >
> > In April 2004, Americans were stunned when CBS broadcast those
> > now-notorious photographs from Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison, showing
> > hooded Iraqis stripped naked while U.S. soldiers stood by smiling. As
> > this scandal grabbed headlines around the globe, Defense Secretary
> > Donald Rumsfeld insisted that the abuses were "perpetrated by a small
> > number of U.S. military," whom New York Times' columnist William
> > Safire soon branded "creeps"--a line that few in the press had reason
> > to challenge.
> >
> > When I looked at these photos, I did not see snapshots of simple
> > brutality or a breakdown in military discipline. After more than a
> > decade of studying the Philippine military's torture techniques for a
> > monograph published by Yale back 1999, I could see the tell-tale
> > signs of the CIA's psychological methods. For example, that iconic
> > photo of a hooded Iraqi with fake electrical wires hanging from his
> > extended arms shows, not the sadism of a few "creeps," but instead
> > the two key trademarks of the CIA's psychological torture. The hood
> > was for sensory disorientation. The arms were extended for
> > self-inflicted pain. It was that simple; it was that obvious.
> >
> > After making that argument in an op-ed for the Boston Globe two weeks
> > after CBS published the photos, I began exploring the historical
> > continuity, the connections, between the CIA torture research back in
> > the 1950s and Abu Ghraib in 2004. By using the past to interrogate
> > the present, I published a book titled A Question of Torture last
> > January that tracks the trail of an extraordinary historical and
> > institutional continuity through countless pages of declassified
> > documents. The findings are disturbing and bear directly upon the
> > ongoing bitter debate over torture that culminated in the enactment
> > of the Military Commissions law just last October.
> >
> >  From 1950 to 1962, the CIA led a secret research effort to crack the
> > code of human consciousness, a veritable Manhattan project of the
> > mind with costs that reached a billion dollars a year. Many have
> > heard about the most outlandish and least successful aspect of this
> > research -- the testing of LSD on unsuspecting subjects and the
> > tragic death of a CIA employee, Dr. Frank Olson, who jumped to his
> > death from a New York hotel after a dose of this drug. This Agency
> > drug testing, the focus of countless sensational press accounts and a
> > half-dozen major books, led nowhere.
> >
> > But obscure CIA-funded behavioral experiments, outsourced to the
> > country's leading universities, produced two key findings, both duly
> > and dully reported in scientific journals, that contributed to the
> > discovery of a distinctly American form of torture: psychological
> > torture. With funding from Canada's Defense Research Board, famed
> > Canadian psychologist Dr. Donald O. Hebb found that he could induce a
> > state akin to psychosis in just 48 hours. What had the doctor
> > done-drugs, hypnosis, electroshock? No, none of the above.
> >
> > Donald Hebb, 1970
> >
> > For two days, student volunteers at McGill University, where Dr. Hebb
> > was chair of Psychology, simply sat in comfortable cubicles deprived
> > of sensor

[Biofuel] Capitalism 3.0, Part 2

[Keith Addison]

From: Rachel's Democracy & Health News #887, Dec. 28, 2006


Capitalism 3.0, Part 2

By Peter Montague

Peter Barnes describes our current economic system as capitalism 2.0 
or "surplus capitalism," because its main problem is finding buyers 
for the gushing fire hydrant of goods that the system so easily 
produces.

Barnes says surplus capitalism has three evident faults -- it is 
devouring creation, it is producing ever-widening disparities between 
rich and poor, and it largely ignores the needs of future 
generations. Barnes proposes to solve these three problems not by 
abandoning capitalism but by giving it a software upgrade -- turning 
it into capitalism 3.0.

Peter Barnes believes that the corporate sector of the U.S. economy 
and culture has grown so large and powerful that it cannot be 
regulated or made "socially responsible" to any significant degree. 
In this regard the book is deeply pessimistic about the future of 
democracy and of the viability of the natural world.

During the 19th century, 
the corporation evolved 
into an institution legally required to fulfill a single purpose -- 
to provide a steady return on investment capital garnered from 
strangers. This they do exceedingly well. As a result, since 1830 
corporations have grown exponentially and without limit. Now fully 
2/3rds of U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) is created by the largest 
500 corporations. (pg. 22) As part of their natural behavior, 
corporations privatize our common wealth, extracting whatever they 
need from nature, community and culture -- and they externalize their 
costs by dumping wastes into the environment, minimizing their tax 
contributions, and reducing pay and eliminating health-care and 
pension benefits for workers to the extent allowed by law. (In 
Barnes's view, the corporate globalization project is largely driven 
by a relentless search for cheap labor. For a brief period in our 
history, labor unions provided a countervailing power to the 
corporations, but Peter Barnes believes that that time is gone, 
presumably forever.)

Using the basic strategy of privatization and externalization, 
corporations have consolidated wealth for a fortunate few -- the 5% 
of Americans who now own more wealth than the other 95% combined. 
(pg. 27) (Barnes does not say so, but, importantly, the structure of 
the modern transnational corporation is the antithesis of democratic 
decision-making. As a secondary, unanticipated result of the 
corporate ascendancy, all the institutions of our culture have fallen 
under the influence of the corporate elite -- including legislatures, 
the judiciary, and the executive branch, but also the mass media, our 
schools and colleges, churches, elections, workplace policies and 
conditions, foreign trade, foreign policy, the military. Almost 
without exception, all the institutions of our culture are now 
disciplined by a hierarchical corporate perspective, and by the 
narrow corporate quest for ever-growing wealth.)

Because the corporate sector cannot be reined in to any significant 
degree, Peter Barnes believes, we must create an entirely new sector 
within the economy to act as a counterbalance to corporate influence. 
This he calls the "commons sector" and it would be created by 
"propertizing" the commons but NOT privatizing the commons. The 
commons would be "propertized" by giving everyone shares in it -- 
shares they receive at birth and own, but which they cannot sell, 
trade or pass on to their heirs.

By "the commons" Barnes means,

1. Nature, which includes air, water, DNA, photosynthesis, seeds, 
topsoil, airwaves, minerals, animals, plants, antibiotics, oceans, 
fisheries, aquifers, quiet, wetlands, forests, rivers, lakes, solar 
energy, wind energy... and so on;

2. Community: streets, playgrounds, the calendar, holidays, 
universities, libraries, museums, social insurance [e.g., social 
security], law, money, accounting standards, capital markets, 
political institutions, farmers' markets, flea markets, craigslist... 
etc.;

3. Culture: language, philosophy, religion, physics, chemistry, 
musical instruments, classical music, jazz, ballet, hip-hop, 
astronomy, electronics, the Internet, broadcast spectrum, medicine, 
biology, mathematics, open-source software... and so forth. (pg. 5)

In Barnes's software fix for capitalism, the mechanism for managing 
common property would be the trust -- an ancient legal mechanism that 
is widely used in the modern world. Barnes proposes creating "common 
property trusts" to manage the newly-created common property rights. 
A trust is a legal arrangement whereby one party (a trustee) manages 
an asset (the "trust property") for the benefit of a third party (the 
trust beneficiaries). The trustee's sole duty is to manage the trust 
property for the benefit of the beneficiaries.

Corporations using the commons wou

[Biofuel] was...Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[AltEnergyNetwork]

Hi,

Oh the old "running your car on hydrogen scam".

Those plans have been floating around for a long time now. There is absolutely 
no way that you
can run a car on this system, or any system for that matter that cracks 
hydrogen using the
 alternator and battery for power.

There is no free ride and this is like trying to create a perpetual motion 
machine...it simply
won't work.

That said, there are more than a few "outfits" seling on board electrolysers to 
add small quantities of
H2 into the engine.
It has been well known for years that adding small amounts of H2 into ICE 
engines WILL result in
a cleaner burn, less particulates in diesel engines and improved mileage and 
power, however.
USDOE and others including the military have used these types of systems and 
have reported increased efficiencies.
There are also some fleet owners that are using on board electrolysers that 
claim better mileage as well.

All types of these systems are popping up for sale all over the net, so it is 
really buyer beware.

Remember, a small amount (up to 5%) of hydrogen or combo H and O (sometimes 
called Brown's gas)
can increase your ICE engines efficiency but there is no way you will fully 
power a car from it.



regards
tallex




>  ---Original Message---
>  From: Bill Ellis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
>  Sent: 29 Dec '06 13:14
>  
>  Hi Jan, Andrew and all
>  
>  
>  If you go to solar, as doug pointed out, then you have lost that simple
>  idea of just pumping water into the fuel tank and it turns to
>  hydrogen/oxygen mix on demand. Now you would have to design and build a
>  storage tank to store the hydrogen in when the sun was out. As I
>  understand it storing hydrogen is not an easy task, there are many
>  problems, keeping it in the tank is among them. As you probably know
>  hydrogen atom is very small therefore most materials are infact
>  pourous(spelled wrong I think) so the gas goes right through them. A few
>  years ago I got really interested in this idea, like a fool I even went
>  and bought a book, (I use the turm loosely) it was really an 8 page
>  pamphlet and a waste of 20 bucks. I carefully built a reactor as per
>  instructions (somewhat scaled down) about 1/3 the size of the one in the
>  'book'. It was quite impressive looking and I had visions of FREE fuel.
>  Well you  know what is said about a FREE RIDE. After about 10 minutes at
>  12 volts (I had two balloons hooked securely to the outputs on the
>  reactor, one for hydrogen the other for oxygen) the hydrogen balloon was
>  about the size of a baseball the oxygen a little bigger than a softball. I
>  even built a 555 timer circuit to pulse 19Hz to the electrodes (read
>  somewhere that this would help crack the water using less power) to no
>  measurable avail. The only increase was detected with an increase in
>  voltage. I don't know about you folks but I hate to try and squeeze into a
>  car that only used enough hydrogen to fill a soccar ball ( about 2/3's
>  bigger than a baseball) in ten minutes.  Buy the way the hydrogen ballon
>  was limp and empty in less than 1 hour. I checked it for leaks with air
>  and there were non.
>  
>  
>  Andrew, just 2 cents from someone that fell for the hype!! Please don't
>  fall for the same thing.
>  
>  
>  Wildbill
>  
>  _JAN WARNQVIST <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>_ wrote: Hello Doug,
>  Andrew et al.
>  Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an
>  energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to
>  obtain
>  the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar
>  cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck !
>  Jan Warnqvist
>  AGERATEC AB
>  
>  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>  
>  + 46 554 201 89
>  +46 70 499 38 45
>  - Original Message -
>  From:
>  To:
>  Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM
>  Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis
>  
>  
>  > What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a
>  perpetual
>  > motion machine.
>  >
>  > You have to put in the energy to  separate the hydrogen from the oxygen,
>  > then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no
>  > surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient,
>  > which they are very far from being.
>  >
>  > Doug Woodard
>  > St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>  >
>  >
>  > > Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world
>  > >
>  > > This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from
>  an
>  > > electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
>  > > http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
>  > >
>  > > What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
>  > >
>  > > Thanks,
>  > > Andrew
>  >
>  >
>  >



Get your daily alternative energy news

Alternate Energy Resource Network
1000+ news sources-resources
 updated daily

http://www.a

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Kirk McLoren]

The literature for industrial chemistry has process efficiency as part of the 
discussion.
  An important part if you are in business.
  As for video I can tell you and show you anything. You cant verify what is 
"shown".
  Things that seem to be too good to be true usually are.
  If they had a rational efficient process we would all be interested.
   
  Kirk

Andrew Katerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
If that is the case, how do you explain a car that runs off of this? I have 
seen video, and from what I understand it runs off only the normal battery used 
to start the car and the hydrogen remove from sea water. I am not an expert on 
this at all, but it definately interests me. By the way, where do you get the 
efficiences for an electrolysis reactor? 
   
  Andrew

 
  On 12/28/06, Kirk McLoren <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The problem is this.
  The electrolyser is 70% efficient best case.
  The engine is 30% efficient best case - in use probably 8%
  So we have .7 x .3 = .21 conversion of electricity to rear wheel power best 
case.
  And what losses are associated with the electricity?
  they make the 21 % even lower and what powered the electricity?
   
  Websites like this are a cruel joke at best.
   
  If photovoltaics were "free" and ran an electrolyzer during the day to charge 
a hydride tank that you could refill from when you got home then a hydrogen 
vehicle would be viable.
  Better yet a fuel cell to escape the low efficiency of thermal processes. 
Fuel cells of 50% efficiency can be purchased now. Then a fuel cell electric 
car. Or 2 battery banks rotated daily - that may get you above 80% on 
storage/transport of power. Likewise 90% on electric motors can be achieved. 
Burning hydrogen in internal combustion is wasteful. 
   
  Kirk   

Andrew Katerman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

  Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world 
   
  This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an 
electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
  http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
   
  What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
   
  Thanks,
  Andrew

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org 

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): 
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  __
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org 
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org 

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): 
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/





___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



 __
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[Kirk McLoren]

Because you could go a minimum of 4 times further down the road if you put the 
electricity into a NiMH battery bank and drove the vehicle with an electric 
motor.
   
  Kirk

Jan Warnqvist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  Hello Doug, Andrew et al.
Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an
energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to obtain
the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar
cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck !
Jan Warnqvist
AGERATEC AB

[EMAIL PROTECTED]

+ 46 554 201 89
+46 70 499 38 45
- Original Message - 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Friday, December 29, 2006 5:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis


> What this amounts to is a really lousy, incompetent attempt at a perpetual
> motion machine.
>
> You have to put in the energy to separate the hydrogen from the oxygen,
> then you get back the same energy when they recombine. There would be no
> surplus to run the vehicle even if every stage was perfectly efficient,
> which they are very far from being.
>
> Doug Woodard
> St, Catharines, Ontario, Canada
>
>
> > Just trying to pick the brains of the rest of the world
> >
> > This is pertaining to gasoline engines being run off of hydrogen from an
> > electrolysis reaction onboard the vehicle.
> > http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans_doc.htm
> >
> > What is the probability of this working correctly? Anyone done it?
> >
> > Thanks,
> > Andrew
>
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



 __
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] Top scientists say man may need to dirty skies to shield against warming - CP Wire - 2006.11.16

[Darryl McMahon]

And now from the "if your toe hurts, fix it by smashing your thumb with
a hammer" department ... Darryl
=
Byline: BY CHARLES J. HANLEY
The ``shade'' would be a layer of pollution
deliberately spewed into the atmosphere to help cool
the planet. This over-the-top idea comes from
prominent scientists, among them a Nobel laureate.
The reaction here at the UN conference on climate
change is a mix of caution, curiosity and some
resignation to such ``massive and drastic'' operations,
as the chief UN climatologist describes them.
The Nobel Prize-winning scientist who first made the
proposal is himself ``not enthusiastic about it.''
``It was meant to startle the policy makers,'' said Paul
Crutzen, of Germany's Max Planck Institute for
Chemistry. ``If they don't take action much more
strongly than they have in the past, then in the end we
have to do experiments like this.''
Serious people are taking Crutzen's idea seriously.
This weekend, NASA's Ames Research Center in
Moffett Field, Calif., hosts a closed-door, high-level
workshop on the global haze proposal and other
``geoengineering'' ideas for fending off climate
change.
In Nairobi, meanwhile, hundreds of delegates were
wrapping up a two-week conference expected to only
slowly advance efforts to rein in greenhouse gases
blamed for much of the half-degree Celsius rise in
global temperatures in the past century.
The 1997 Kyoto Protocol requires modest emission
cutbacks by industrial countries, but not the United
States, the biggest emitter of carbon dioxide and
other heat-trapping gases, because it rejected the deal.
Talks on what to do after Kyoto expires in 2012 are
all but bogged down.
When he published his proposal in the journal
Climatic Change in August, Crutzen cited a ``grossly
disappointing international political response'' to
warming.
The Dutch climatologist, awarded a 1995 Nobel in
chemistry for his work uncovering the threat to
Earth's atmospheric ozone layer, suggested that
balloons bearing heavy guns be used to carry
sulphates high aloft and fire them into the
stratosphere.
While carbon dioxide keeps heat from escaping
Earth, substances such as sulphur dioxide, a common
air pollutant, reflect solar radiation, helping cool the
planet.
Tom Wigley, a senior U.S. government climatologist,
followed Crutzen's article with a paper of his own on
Oct. 20 in the leading U.S. journal Science. Like
Crutzen, Wigley cited the precedent of the huge
volcanic eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the
Philippines in 1991.
Pinatubo shot so much sulfurous debris into the
stratosphere that it is believed it cooled the Earth by
0.5 degrees C for about a year.
Wigley ran scenarios of stratospheric sulphate
injection, on the scale of Pinatubo's estimated nine
million tonnes of sulphur, through supercomputer
models of the climate, and reported that Crutzen's
idea would, indeed, seem to work. Even half that
amount per year would help, he wrote.
A massive dissemination of pollutants would be
needed every year or two, as the sulphates precipitate
from the atmosphere in acid rain.
Wigley said a temporary shield would give political
leaders more time to reduce human dependence on
fossil fuels, the main source of greenhouse gases. He
said experts must more closely study the feasibility of
the idea and its possible effects on stratospheric
chemistry.
Nairobi conference participants agreed.
``Yes, by all means, do all the research,'' Indian
climatologist Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the
2,000-scientist UN network on climate change, told
The Associated Press.
But ``if human beings take it upon themselves to
carry out something as massive and drastic as this,
we need to be absolutely sure there are no side
effects,'' Pachauri said.
Philip Clapp, a veteran campaigner for emissions
controls to curb warming, also sounded a nervous
note, saying, ``We are already engaged in an
uncontrolled experiment by injecting greenhouse
gases into the atmosphere.''
But Clapp, president of the U.S. group National
Environmental Trust, said, ``I certainly don't disagree
with the urgency.''
In past years scientists have scoffed at the idea of air
pollution as a solution for global warming, saying
that the kind of sulphate haze that would be needed is
deadly to people. Last month, the World Heath
Organization said air pollution kills about two million
people worldwide each year and that reducing large
soot-like particles from sulfates in cities could save
300,000 lives annually.
American geophysicist Jonathan Pershing, of
Washington's World Resources Institute, is among
those wary of unforeseen consequences, but said the
idea might be worth considering ``if down the road
25 years, it becomes more and more severe because
we didn't deal with the problem.''
By telephone from Germany, Crutzen said that's what
he envisioned: global haze as a component for
long-range planning. ``The reception on the whole is
more positive than I thought,'' he said.
Pershing added, however, that reaction

Re: [Biofuel] Top scientists say man may need to dirty skies to shield against warming - CP Wire - 2006.11.16

[Kirk McLoren]

If all new and replaced roofs were white how much would that do?
  What if highways were white?
What if the cars on them and so on.
  Kirk
  
Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
  And now from the "if your toe hurts, fix it by smashing your thumb with
a hammer" department ... Darryl
=
Byline: BY CHARLES J. HANLEY
The ``shade'' would be a layer of pollution
deliberately spewed into the atmosphere to help cool
the planet. This over-the-top idea comes from
prominent scientists, among them a Nobel laureate.
The reaction here at the UN conference on climate
change is a mix of caution, curiosity and some
resignation to such ``massive and drastic'' operations,
as the chief UN climatologist describes them.
The Nobel Prize-winning scientist who first made the
proposal is himself ``not enthusiastic about it.''
``It was meant to startle the policy makers,'' said Paul
Crutzen, of Germany's Max Planck Institute for
Chemistry. ``If they don't take action much more
strongly than they have in the past, then in the end we
have to do experiments like this.''
Serious people are taking Crutzen's idea seriously.
This weekend, NASA's Ames Research Center in
Moffett Field, Calif., hosts a closed-door, high-level
workshop on the global haze proposal and other
``geoengineering'' ideas for fending off climate
change.
In Nairobi, meanwhile, hundreds of delegates were
wrapping up a two-week conference expected to only
slowly advance efforts to rein in greenhouse gases
blamed for much of the half-degree Celsius rise in
global temperatures in the past century.
The 1997 Kyoto Protocol requires modest emission
cutbacks by industrial countries, but not the United
States, the biggest emitter of carbon dioxide and
other heat-trapping gases, because it rejected the deal.
Talks on what to do after Kyoto expires in 2012 are
all but bogged down.
When he published his proposal in the journal
Climatic Change in August, Crutzen cited a ``grossly
disappointing international political response'' to
warming.
The Dutch climatologist, awarded a 1995 Nobel in
chemistry for his work uncovering the threat to
Earth's atmospheric ozone layer, suggested that
balloons bearing heavy guns be used to carry
sulphates high aloft and fire them into the
stratosphere.
While carbon dioxide keeps heat from escaping
Earth, substances such as sulphur dioxide, a common
air pollutant, reflect solar radiation, helping cool the
planet.
Tom Wigley, a senior U.S. government climatologist,
followed Crutzen's article with a paper of his own on
Oct. 20 in the leading U.S. journal Science. Like
Crutzen, Wigley cited the precedent of the huge
volcanic eruption of Mount Pinatubo in the
Philippines in 1991.
Pinatubo shot so much sulfurous debris into the
stratosphere that it is believed it cooled the Earth by
0.5 degrees C for about a year.
Wigley ran scenarios of stratospheric sulphate
injection, on the scale of Pinatubo's estimated nine
million tonnes of sulphur, through supercomputer
models of the climate, and reported that Crutzen's
idea would, indeed, seem to work. Even half that
amount per year would help, he wrote.
A massive dissemination of pollutants would be
needed every year or two, as the sulphates precipitate
from the atmosphere in acid rain.
Wigley said a temporary shield would give political
leaders more time to reduce human dependence on
fossil fuels, the main source of greenhouse gases. He
said experts must more closely study the feasibility of
the idea and its possible effects on stratospheric
chemistry.
Nairobi conference participants agreed.
``Yes, by all means, do all the research,'' Indian
climatologist Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the
2,000-scientist UN network on climate change, told
The Associated Press.
But ``if human beings take it upon themselves to
carry out something as massive and drastic as this,
we need to be absolutely sure there are no side
effects,'' Pachauri said.
Philip Clapp, a veteran campaigner for emissions
controls to curb warming, also sounded a nervous
note, saying, ``We are already engaged in an
uncontrolled experiment by injecting greenhouse
gases into the atmosphere.''
But Clapp, president of the U.S. group National
Environmental Trust, said, ``I certainly don't disagree
with the urgency.''
In past years scientists have scoffed at the idea of air
pollution as a solution for global warming, saying
that the kind of sulphate haze that would be needed is
deadly to people. Last month, the World Heath
Organization said air pollution kills about two million
people worldwide each year and that reducing large
soot-like particles from sulfates in cities could save
300,000 lives annually.
American geophysicist Jonathan Pershing, of
Washington's World Resources Institute, is among
those wary of unforeseen consequences, but said the
idea might be worth considering ``if down the road
25 years, it becomes more and more severe because
we didn't deal with the problem.''
By telephone from Germany, Crutzen said that

Re: [Biofuel] Top scientists say man may need to dirty skies to shield against warming - CP Wire - 2006.11.16

[dwoodard]

There has been some experimentation with white roofs in the American south
and they make a useful contribution to reducing the need for air
conditioning.
I found several internet sites which discussed this from a search a couple
of years ago.

Black asphalt roads are useful in clearing the ice from roads in winter.

Some time ago, white painted cars were more vulnerable to rust. I don't
know if it is still the case. They provide poor contrast in winter.
Something that stands out better is safer.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario


> If all new and replaced roofs were white how much would that do?
>   What if highways were white?
> What if the cars on them and so on.
>   Kirk
>
[snip]


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] The Winners of the Worst EU Lobby Awards 2006

[frantz.desprez]

•The Winners of the Worst EU Lobby Awards 2006•

«The Worst EU Lobbying ExxonMobil For continuing to fund climate change
sceptics 4080 votes (47%) more info mehr info plus d'info The Worst
Privileged Access DG Internal Market For manipulating a consultation on
EU patent policies 4936 votes (52%) more info mehr info plus d'info
Press release 13 December 2006 See the runners-up»...

http://www.worstlobby.eu/winners.html

frantz


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Water Powered Engine / Electrolysis

[dwoodard]

Hydrogen does indeed have an excellent heat value for its weight/mass, but
not for its volume, and it is a gas down close to absolute zero. Hydrogen
storage is a considerable problem. To my mind it remains to be seen
whether hydrogen will ever be economic for the sole fuel of a vehicle.

I think that hydrogen from renewable sources distributed in pipes may well
be very useful as a replacement for natural gas. As well as wind turbines,
see
http://www.shec-labs.com
which uses a solar thermal catalytic methods of making hydrogen from water.

Doug Woodard
St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada


> Hello Doug, Andrew et al.
> Hydrogen gas has a fine heat value, which makes it very interesting as an
> energy source. However, as Doug pointed out, it will be necessary to
> obtain
> the energy for the electrolysis from an outer source, why not from solar
> cells, to make the energy balance favourable. Good Luck !
> Jan Warnqvist
> AGERATEC AB

[snip]


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Methanol Suppliers

[CL IRV]

Hey allhere is a good price! 1.80/gallon, here is the link  
http://www.methanex.com/products/methanolprice.html


Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2006 22:41:05 -0500From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]: [Biofuel] Methanol SuppliersHi all,I need a better supply of 
methanol.  My local supplier is charging $5.75/gallon.  AND, I have to call 
ahead so they can "re-package" it.  Can anyone point me to a better source in 
south central Pennsylvania?  Or, I suppose, I'd be willing to have it shipped 
but, I'd prefer to buy as locally as possible. Thanks,Ken
_
Fixing up the home? Live Search can help.
http://imagine-windowslive.com/search/kits/default.aspx?kit=improve&locale=en-US&source=wlmemailtaglinenov06___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Top scientists say man may need to dirty skies to shield against warming - CP Wire - 2006.11.16

[Frank Navarrete]

The powers that be want the human race to be regurgitated from Earth
as soon as possible.

On 12/29/06, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> There has been some experimentation with white roofs in the American south
> and they make a useful contribution to reducing the need for air
> conditioning.
> I found several internet sites which discussed this from a search a couple
> of years ago.
>
> Black asphalt roads are useful in clearing the ice from roads in winter.
>
> Some time ago, white painted cars were more vulnerable to rust. I don't
> know if it is still the case. They provide poor contrast in winter.
> Something that stands out better is safer.
>
> Doug Woodard
> St. Catharines, Ontario
>
>
> > If all new and replaced roofs were white how much would that do?
> >   What if highways were white?
> > What if the cars on them and so on.
> >   Kirk
> >
> [snip]
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] Soap formation

[Joe Neo]

Hi guys,

I just reprocessed a batch using 10% methanol and 5.79g of KOH per
litre. After settling for 15 hrs, it turned out well, no more
glycerine drops out, and the bididiesel was crystal clear.. So i took
about 100ml of BD and added 100ml of fresh water for test wash. I
shook it violently for 10 secs. Thick emulsion was formed with no sign
of separation (even after waited for almost 2 hrs). It was worse than
before it was reprocessed (before i got BD and  emulsion.. well, at
least there was separation). Now what i have is total emulsion..

Anyone care to advise?

Thanks,
Joe N.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Capitalism 3.0, Part 2

[Frank Navarrete]

I think the common trust would fall subject to corruption like the
rest of our well planned US government.  The fore-fathers created
preventative measures for our modern woes, which unfortunately have
been used against their original intentions.  The only thing that
keeps a good government on paper from becoming a bad one in practice
is adherence to the simple tenets of its constitution.  This requires
an educated and courageous people with a body of faithful
representatives.  The system is good, we've just strayed from it.

On 12/29/06, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> From: Rachel's Democracy & Health News #887, Dec. 28, 2006
> 
>
> Capitalism 3.0, Part 2
>
> By Peter Montague
>
> Peter Barnes describes our current economic system as capitalism 2.0
> or "surplus capitalism," because its main problem is finding buyers
> for the gushing fire hydrant of goods that the system so easily
> produces.
>
> Barnes says surplus capitalism has three evident faults -- it is
> devouring creation, it is producing ever-widening disparities between
> rich and poor, and it largely ignores the needs of future
> generations. Barnes proposes to solve these three problems not by
> abandoning capitalism but by giving it a software upgrade -- turning
> it into capitalism 3.0.
>
> Peter Barnes believes that the corporate sector of the U.S. economy
> and culture has grown so large and powerful that it cannot be
> regulated or made "socially responsible" to any significant degree.
> In this regard the book is deeply pessimistic about the future of
> democracy and of the viability of the natural world.
>
> During the 19th century,
> the corporation evolved
> into an institution legally required to fulfill a single purpose --
> to provide a steady return on investment capital garnered from
> strangers. This they do exceedingly well. As a result, since 1830
> corporations have grown exponentially and without limit. Now fully
> 2/3rds of U.S. gross domestic product (GDP) is created by the largest
> 500 corporations. (pg. 22) As part of their natural behavior,
> corporations privatize our common wealth, extracting whatever they
> need from nature, community and culture -- and they externalize their
> costs by dumping wastes into the environment, minimizing their tax
> contributions, and reducing pay and eliminating health-care and
> pension benefits for workers to the extent allowed by law. (In
> Barnes's view, the corporate globalization project is largely driven
> by a relentless search for cheap labor. For a brief period in our
> history, labor unions provided a countervailing power to the
> corporations, but Peter Barnes believes that that time is gone,
> presumably forever.)
>
> Using the basic strategy of privatization and externalization,
> corporations have consolidated wealth for a fortunate few -- the 5%
> of Americans who now own more wealth than the other 95% combined.
> (pg. 27) (Barnes does not say so, but, importantly, the structure of
> the modern transnational corporation is the antithesis of democratic
> decision-making. As a secondary, unanticipated result of the
> corporate ascendancy, all the institutions of our culture have fallen
> under the influence of the corporate elite -- including legislatures,
> the judiciary, and the executive branch, but also the mass media, our
> schools and colleges, churches, elections, workplace policies and
> conditions, foreign trade, foreign policy, the military. Almost
> without exception, all the institutions of our culture are now
> disciplined by a hierarchical corporate perspective, and by the
> narrow corporate quest for ever-growing wealth.)
>
> Because the corporate sector cannot be reined in to any significant
> degree, Peter Barnes believes, we must create an entirely new sector
> within the economy to act as a counterbalance to corporate influence.
> This he calls the "commons sector" and it would be created by
> "propertizing" the commons but NOT privatizing the commons. The
> commons would be "propertized" by giving everyone shares in it --
> shares they receive at birth and own, but which they cannot sell,
> trade or pass on to their heirs.
>
> By "the commons" Barnes means,
>
> 1. Nature, which includes air, water, DNA, photosynthesis, seeds,
> topsoil, airwaves, minerals, animals, plants, antibiotics, oceans,
> fisheries, aquifers, quiet, wetlands, forests, rivers, lakes, solar
> energy, wind energy... and so on;
>
> 2. Community: streets, playgrounds, the calendar, holidays,
> universities, libraries, museums, social insurance [e.g., social
> security], law, money, accounting standards, capital markets,
> political institutions, farmers' markets, flea markets, craigslist...
> etc.;
>
> 3. Culture: language, philosophy, religion, physics, chemistry,
> musical instruments, classical music, jazz, ballet, hip-hop,
> astronomy, electronics, the