Re: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry

[Jan Warnqvist]

Hello Keith. Moles means molecules. There is one water molecule formed for 
each molecule of fatty acid alkylated.
It is true that some water is produced during saponification of free acidity 
and it is also true that water is formed when mixing NaOH or KOH in an 
alcohol. But neither of these reactions are esterification or 
transesterification reactions..
It is considered that the transesterifiction reaction takes place in two or 
more steps, where the first step is the collapse of the glycerine-formed 
ester (the triglyceride etc) forming free glycerine and free acidity. Water 
is consumed in that step. In another step the new esters are formed where 
the equal amount of  water is released. Conclusion: Some free water is good 
for the first step of the reaction. Does it make sense ?
- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:27 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry


> Hello Jan
>
> Thankyou!
>
>>The acid esterification produces water with 1M /M alkylated fatty acid.
>
> I have difficulty with moles. I do know how to figure it out, in
> theory, but I'm not confident of the result. Would you mind writing
> it as a formula equation, if that's the right term:
>
> A + B --> D + E
>
> Moles gives quantities though, which I'd like to know. Is it possible
> to translate "1M /M alkylated fatty acid" into ml of water per litre
> of oil or something similar?
>
>>The trans-esterification does not produce any water,
>
> We've had people saying it does, and others that it doesn't. It's
> been said that some water is produced by the saponification of free
> fatty acids, though it's very little, and someone else said some
> water might be formed during the reaction that produces the methoxide:
>
> CH3OH + KOH  ---> CH3OK + H2O
> or
> CH3OH + NaOH ---> CH3ONa + H2O
>
> Any comments?
>
>>but some water present
>>(0,1%)  is necessary to make the process run well.
>
> I didn't know that. Can you explain how it works?
>
> I did know that esterification will also perform some
> transesterification if it has the chance, but it's slow.
>
> Thanks again Jan - all best to you
>
> Keith
>
>
>>The acid esterification
>>produces water with 1M /M alkylated fatty acid. This process will also
>>perform trans-esterification assuming that there is some material to
>>trans-esterify and that the operator in question lets the process 
>>continue.
>>
>>With best regards
>>Jan W
>>- Original Message -
>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>To: 
>>Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:58 AM
>>Subject: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry
>>
>>
>>>  Hello all
>>>
>>>  A question...
>>>
>>>  Even when everything is dry, including the oil, the
>>>  transesterification process itself produces some water, though not
>>>  very much.
>>>
>>>  IIRC acid esterification also produces water, I think more water than
>>>  transesterification does, and via a different process.
>>>
>>>  Does anybody know if that's correct, and what the chemical equations
>>  > are? With KOH and H2SO4.
>>>
>>>  Thanks!
>>>
>>>  All best
>>>
>>  > Keith
>
>
>
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Re: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry

[Chris Burck]

keith,

don't know if this will help, but. . .:

http://www.youtube.com/user/khanacademy#p/c/166048DD75B05C0D/10/gfBcM3uvWfs

and:

http://www.youtube.com/user/khanacademy#p/c/166048DD75B05C0D/11/AsqEkF7hcII
maybe it'll give you what you need to feel more confident doing it
yourself?  i've been meaning to check some of this guy's stuff out myself
(really need to revisit a lot of high school math), but haven't gotten
around to it yet.

-chris
On Sun, Apr 18, 2010 at 1:27 PM, Keith Addison
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:


> I have difficulty with moles. I do know how to figure it out, in
> theory, but I'm not confident of the result.
-- next part --
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Re: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry

[Keith Addison]

Hello again Jan

Thanks for the explanation.

>Hello Keith. Moles means molecules.

Yes, or molecular weights. My problem is with translating moles to 
quantities, such as ml and litres. Which brings in specific gravity / 
relative density... :-( I can manage though.

I arrived at a figure of the acid esterification step producing 17.3 
ml of water per litre of oil processed (rapeseed), 1.73%. I doubt 
it's that precise, but it should be something like that.

>There is one water molecule formed for
>each molecule of fatty acid alkylated.
>It is true that some water is produced during saponification of free acidity
>and it is also true that water is formed when mixing NaOH or KOH in an
>alcohol. But neither of these reactions are esterification or
>transesterification reactions..

No, but the water is there nonetheless.

>It is considered that the transesterifiction reaction takes place in two or
>more steps, where the first step is the collapse of the glycerine-formed
>ester (the triglyceride etc) forming free glycerine and free acidity. Water
>is consumed in that step. In another step the new esters are formed where
>the equal amount of  water is released. Conclusion: Some free water is good
>for the first step of the reaction. Does it make sense ?

Yes it does.

So in acid-base processing, the acid esterification stage should 
provide the water needed for the first step of the base 
transesterification stage, very convenient. The water released in the 
final stage of transesterification should end up in the glycerine 
byproduct layer, or most of it anyway, and washing and settling 
should remove the rest.

Without the preceding acid esterification stage, could some of the 
water required in the first step of transesterification be provided 
by the water formed in mixing the methoxide? I'd imagine that water 
formed during saponification would be in the by-product layer rather 
than available to help initiate transesterification.

Interesting, Jan - thanks very much.

All best to you

Keith


>- Original Message -
>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: 
>Sent: Sunday, April 18, 2010 7:27 PM
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry
>
>
>>  Hello Jan
>>
>>  Thankyou!
>>
>>>The acid esterification produces water with 1M /M alkylated fatty acid.
>>
>>  I have difficulty with moles. I do know how to figure it out, in
>>  theory, but I'm not confident of the result. Would you mind writing
>>  it as a formula equation, if that's the right term:
>>
>>  A + B --> D + E
>>
>>  Moles gives quantities though, which I'd like to know. Is it possible
>>  to translate "1M /M alkylated fatty acid" into ml of water per litre
>>  of oil or something similar?
>>
>>>The trans-esterification does not produce any water,
>>
>>  We've had people saying it does, and others that it doesn't. It's
>>  been said that some water is produced by the saponification of free
>>  fatty acids, though it's very little, and someone else said some
>>  water might be formed during the reaction that produces the methoxide:
>>
>>  CH3OH + KOH  ---> CH3OK + H2O
>>  or
>>  CH3OH + NaOH ---> CH3ONa + H2O
>>
>>  Any comments?
>>
>>>but some water present
>>>(0,1%)  is necessary to make the process run well.
>>
>>  I didn't know that. Can you explain how it works?
>>
>>  I did know that esterification will also perform some
>>  transesterification if it has the chance, but it's slow.
>>
>>  Thanks again Jan - all best to you
>>
>>  Keith
>>
>>
>>>The acid esterification
>>>produces water with 1M /M alkylated fatty acid. This process will also
>>>perform trans-esterification assuming that there is some material to
>>>trans-esterify and that the operator in question lets the process
>>>continue.
>>>
>>>With best regards
>>>Jan W
>>>- Original Message -
>>>From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>>To: 
>>>Sent: Saturday, April 17, 2010 11:58 AM
>>>Subject: [Biofuel] Acid-base chemistry
>>>
>>>
   Hello all

   A question...
>  >>>
   Even when everything is dry, including the oil, the
   transesterification process itself produces some water, though not
   very much.

   IIRC acid esterification also produces water, I think more water than
   transesterification does, and via a different process.

   Does anybody know if that's correct, and what the chemical equations
>>>   > are? With KOH and H2SO4.

   Thanks!

   All best

>  >>  > Keith
>  >


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[Biofuel] first batch

[Fritz]

Hi Keith & all,
after so long time on theorics  i'v made my first batch
4 hrs ago and the settling is halfway down in my 23ltr. glassbottle!
My WVO collectet more than two years ago had so nicly separated from the 
water it looked almost like fresh oil!
I pushed myself to start after an airing on CBC2 Ottawa of a couple of 
young people told listeners that you only have to filter the WVO and its 
ready for use in their Van!
Their homepage http.driventosustain.ca does not mention anything of
FFA's and the whole procedure just straigth after fitering poured in to 
the tank!
And they campain in schools and give some kind of advice how to due!
I was curious to know and invited them to come up here (and offert a 
free filling) but they haeded the same day for Kingston! So what i had 
to start and it looking not to bad!
Buying Leye  here is a bit of a challenge! The only thing i found was
Draincleaner, a bit pink in colour but it seems working!
i let you know  more after my washing is done
Thanks Keith for the excellent  description of procedure on your  site
and all the contributors of it
Fritz

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Re: [Biofuel] first batch

[Keith Addison]

Hi Fritz

Good luck with it, but I think you've gone wrong right at the start, 
in several ways.

Where do I start?
... Start with fresh unused oil, NOT with waste vegetable oil (WVO), 
that comes later.


What is the titration of the oil? Did you titrate it?

>Buying Leye  here is a bit of a challenge! The only thing i found was
>Draincleaner, a bit pink in colour but it seems working!

How can you tell if it's working or not?

... "The Red Devil-brand NaOH lye drain-cleaner previously sold in 
the US is no longer made. Don't use Drano or ZEP drain-cleaners or 
equivalents with blue or purple granules or any-coloured granules, 
it's only about half NaOH and it contains aluminium -- it won't work 
for biodiesel."
-- Where do I start? > What's next? > The process


... "Buy top-quality methanol and lye from a chemicals supplies 
company or laboratory supplies company; high-quality lye can also be 
bought from soapmakers' suppliers."
-- Make your first test batch


... "Make sure the chemicals you're using are top-quality."
-- Make your first test batch > 7. Quality


:-(

Do it right! Start here:
"Where do I start?"


Follow the instructions, step by step. Forget everything else you've 
heard, don't take shortcuts. Study everything on that page and the 
next page and at the links in the text. It tells you everything you 
need to know.

Best

Keith


>Hi Keith & all,
>after so long time on theorics  i'v made my first batch
>4 hrs ago and the settling is halfway down in my 23ltr. glassbottle!
>My WVO collectet more than two years ago had so nicly separated from the
>water it looked almost like fresh oil!
>I pushed myself to start after an airing on CBC2 Ottawa of a couple of
>young people told listeners that you only have to filter the WVO and its
>ready for use in their Van!
>Their homepage http.driventosustain.ca does not mention anything of
>FFA's and the whole procedure just straigth after fitering poured in to
>the tank!
>And they campain in schools and give some kind of advice how to due!
>I was curious to know and invited them to come up here (and offert a
>free filling) but they haeded the same day for Kingston! So what i had
>to start and it looking not to bad!
>Buying Leye  here is a bit of a challenge! The only thing i found was
>Draincleaner, a bit pink in colour but it seems working!
>i let you know  more after my washing is done
>Thanks Keith for the excellent  description of procedure on your  site
>and all the contributors of it
>Fritz


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