Re: [Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
The alcohol I refer to is the eth/methanol! What else would cause the solvent action so famous in biodiesel? No, I have not heard of any peer-reviewed SVO studies either. -Ben - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!] > Helo Ben, Jim > > Ben wrote: > > >From what I understand from the research done so far straight vegetable oil > >burning does not seem to be coking or gumming components if correct temps > >are reached. > > That seems to be the consensus, but there are research studies that disagree. > > >(This is from hundreds of thousands of miles up to maybe a > >couple of million miles collectively - not that much compared with biodiesel > >studies. > > Ben, the research done so far and the mileage done so far are not > particularly related. I can't think of any long-term, high-mileage > research on SVO, can you? Published, peer-reviewed research studies, > that is. There are two online databases where SVO users have been > recording their results, steadily building up an empirical case, but > that's a different matter, and it's not so easy to extract what many > would call reliable information from it: lots of variables, both > among cases and the usual ones with user-recorded data. For instance, > the US EPA would not call it reliable information, of the kind they > need before they can register SVO as a legal, on-road fuel in the US > - which currently it's not. For more information on this issue search > for "Detrick" in the Biofuel archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel > > >This entails switching over after enough heat is present in the > >system and allowing adequate shutdown times. Most seem to agree that target > >temp is at least 70 C. > > I think the ACREVO study says 150 deg C for DI diesels - much too > hot! Unless you add 9% of 95% ethanol, as you're planning to do, then > it comes down to 80. There's definitely more involved than just the > viscosity. > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html > The TDI-SVO controversy > > >I think the combination of B100 in the stock tank and veggie in the second > >tank makes a lot of sense from a gumming and engine cleaning standpoint in > >that if tiny amounts of coking or gumming occur the solvent action in the > >alcohol might help to remove it regularly. > > What alcohol? There isn't any alcohol in biodiesel, unless you don't > wash it (NOT recommended!). Then the excess will still be there, but > that's the only free alcohol there is. But yes, biodiesel cleans well. > > >This is only speculation. Many > >recommend a solid Italian tune up often, while burning veggie oil or while > >burning biodiesel. > > With veggie oil, it depends, on the car, the SVO system and the oil > used, both type and condition. With biodiesel, depending only on it > being standard-spec fuel, that shouldn't be necessary any more so > than with petro-diesel, and maybe less so. > > >- Original Message - > >From: "Jim Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: > >Sent: Monday, November 03, 2003 10:22 AM > >Subject: Re: [Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not > >Both!!] > > > > > > > I have read scientific articles which state that using straight vegetable > >oil will gum the injectors, especially on cold starts and shutdowns. I am > >aware of the dual tank approach, where you start your diesel on 100% > >petrodiesel and after warm up, shift to vegetable oils, then back to > >petrodiesel at shutdown. The manufacture says nothing about gum and I would > >suspect that using straight vegetable oil under any conditions would gum the > >injectors and other parts of the engine. > > Some studies have found that, others not. Some users have found that > too, others not. It also depends on the oil being used, some > polymerize much more easily than others. (Biodiesel made from those > oils will also polymerise, but not as quickly.) It's something of an > SVO myth that SVO can be produced from decentralized small oil > expellers - ie straight from the plant. SVO must be refined first, > including degumming. See "Straighter-than-straight vegetable oils as > diesel fuels": > http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_SVO-Allen.html > > Anyway, with an older Mercedes, say, which seems to be the ideal > choice, and a good two-tank system, all indications are that you'll > be just fine. > > > > Diesel electric systems have been used on train engines for years. Why > >that approach has not been adapted to the auto industry is a mystery. > > Yes, isn't it a mystery! What exactly is the problem? > > >The > >hybird diesel electric would seem to be the best solution, especially if > >B100 is used as the fuel. > > Certainly a good solution, but the new-generation diesels from Europe > and Japan are really good and getting better, and have the advantage > that they won't baffle most mecha
Re: [Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!]
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!
Keith, I couldn't agree more. I should have specified "waste" VO. Not virgin to be sure. The vast majority of the waste oil us greasers use is produced initially in giant monocultures with huge fossil based inputs, typical of most industrial production. NOT sustainable. Some of it is also the odd but large quantity of "culled" batches from things like soap production or food production. We use it at the end of its normal lifecycle, however, and this changes a lot. Tailpipe emissions for WVO do seem to be no better than biodiesel, or especially than ethanol. I'd like to experiment with a 9% ethanol/WVO blend which as per ACREVO veg oil atomization report (http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm) really drops the emissions, however. This ethanol would be produced here on site from local crops like Jerusalem artichokes. Tailpipe emissions are only part of the story obviously, as the input side of the production needs to be factored in. This is where simply looking at tailpipe emissions of say WVO vs. Biodiesel is misleading. I'd like to know more about the majority of meth/eth production, from what I do it doesn't sound very generative. Do you know of any good sources for learning more on the processes? I know it can be done well on a homebrew level, but doesn't seem to be in many places. I'd love to find someone in this area who is making meth/eth form local resources! I agree as well: biodiesel/veg oil are not competitors, they can compliment one another. Yet, there are choices to make and I know many folks including myself who have the choice to burn more of one or the other. I have chosen to use biodiesel for starting and veg to run. It seems clear that WVO from local sources destined for non-value added disposal is way more sustainable than using any amount of biodiesel made more intensively, albeit locally. This is true for my situation here in VT and for others up here as well. Until these oil sources are exhausted or used in an even more generative manner this will be true: WVO is lower impact than biodiesel (in this situation). It seems likely that this is also true for other areas with similar economic flows. I can't imagine a situation where it is more efficient and effective to turn WVO into another product by adding a (usually) non-sustainable input and call that end product (biodiesel) more sustainable than the initial material. Second law of thermodynamics and other factors come to mind. There are practicalities such as amount of use that would take place vie converting vehicles and non that would influence this, but from a physical perspective this would seem to hold true most of the time. Thanks for the links, very interesting. It seems clear that no matter the outcome of this discussion we are at a stage where the choices are much easier than they will be in the future, when most drivers will be choosing between various forms of somewhat sustainable fuels. Will there be enough waste oil to run all of the vehicles- to do what I and the other greasers are doing? Clearly not on this planet. This is an intermediate step... what will come next? Fuel from virgin crops? Maybe. Fuel from wind (hydrogen)? Maybe. Driving a lot less, and more efficiently? Surely. I am told by a TDI technician that the tuner box he uses allows him to get 70 MPG on his TDI. 70 MPG on veggie oil... that would get us all pretty far... 6, no 7 billion people, ahhh not far enough... Less people, less driving, hyper efficiency with renewable sourcing, all at the same time, and yesterday. Will anything less do? Cheers, Ben - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!! > Hello Ben > > >If you want low emissions (in a lifecycle sense) try straight vegetable oil! > >No methanol/ethanol production and of course, way cleaner from source to > >sink than anything petroleum. > > Emissions data on SVO/WVO are not as detailed nor as clearcut as on > biodiesel, but biodiesel's usually the winner. > > But, even setting them at the same level, how would you compare SVO > from an agribusiness monocrop, using GMO soy or rapeseed, with > enormous fossil-fuel inputs > (http://lists.ifas.ufl.edu/cgi-bin/wa.exe?A2=ind0310&L=sanet-mg&P=R143 > 8&D=0&H=0&I=-3&O=T&T=1) and massive externalizations > (http://www2.essex.ac.uk/ces/ResearchProgrammes/Externalities/Externsu > bheadings.htm), with biodiesel made from an oil crop raised on an > organic farm > (http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/1003/carbonsequest.shtml) > , perhaps as a by-product (equivalent to no land use), where "you > don't need to use any fossil fuels at all", there aren't any > externalizations, and by using ethanol produced the same way? > > Or, indeed, vice-versa. I'm not saying the one's any cleaner than the > other, necessarily, but I reject these broad-brush comparisons, > especially
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!!
If you want low emissions (in a lifecycle sense) try straight vegetable oil! No methanol/ethanol production and of course, way cleaner from source to sink than anything petroleum. - Original Message - From: "kabri2003" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 3:07 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] diesel or hybrid? Why not Both!! > Hi, I'm new to your forum. My husband and I just purchased a diesel > F250 PSD and have been devouring everything we can read about > biodiesel. We also own a Toyota Prius Hybrid. I'm a bit dismayed by > the negativity I've seen on some of the biodiesel forums towards > hybrid owners. Hey, if ANY car manufacturer made a diesel hybrid, I'd > be first in line to buy one! We love our hybrid, but realize it is 1 > step, side by side with many others, like biodiesel, in the right > direction. The extreme quiet, ability to drive in electric mode > only, the power the electric engine has, and the super-clean > emissions are all reasons we love the car. Biodiesel is not getting > the press it should, it took a bumpersticker on a mercedes diesel > about using biodiesel to get us aware. If VW made a diesel hybrid > Jetta or if Toyota would sell a diesel Hybrid in the US, I'd buy one! > > Thanks to all for the wealth of info on this forum; thanks in advance > for the biodiesel education! > Karen > > --- In biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com, Brian Kelly <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I've been thinking about a hybrid / biodiesel combo > > for a while. It would push fuel efficiency and > > sustainability to a new high for vehicles. I recently > > purchased a new jetta diesel though and still feel > > good about my plans to run it on biodiesel. The > > mileage will still be much better than most cars. > > Brian > > --- murdoch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > The thing is, though, that the only two hybrid > > > makers haven't made > > > their hybrids biofuel-oriented, and the good diesel > > > or flex-fuel-E85 > > > makers haven't made hybrids. > > > > > > > > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Rent DVDs Online - Over 14,500 titles. No Late Fees & Free Shipping. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/xlw.sC/XP.FAA/3jkFAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Various Diesels and Waste Veggie Oil
I was wondering if anyone has any knowledge regarding what small diesels run best on used veggie oil. I have read much information on the controversy about DI engines and their ability to run properly and long-term on WVO. Does anyone have any first hand experience with this? I am also looking into older mercedes (S-class in particular) along with newer VW TDI's and older VW's. I've heard that mercedes engines can almost run on lard. Also, there are a slew of conversion kits out there, mostly from Europe - any recommendations? Thanks in advance and cheers, -- Ben - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Your own Online Store Selling our Overstock. http://us.click.yahoo.com/rZll0B/4ftFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Diesel Sawmill
Hello, Does anyone have any advice on purchasing a small portable diesel band sawmill?The only model I have found is the LT15 by Wood Mizer (which is a bit out of our budget). Our school is interested in a 8-15hp band sawmill that can run on biodiesel. Simple, mostly manual mills are of particular interest as we are remote from any service operations. A used mill might be fine. The wood is Casuarina, and at least as dense as shagbark hickory. Thanks for any insight you may have! -Ben Ben K. Falk Design-Build Manager The Island School Cape Eleuthera, Bahamas www.islandschool.org - Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Ecological Design Opportunity in The Bahamas...
Hello folks, This is an opportunity some of you might be very interested in... Ecological Design Courses & Sustainability Summit January 25÷February 13, 2003 The Island School÷Cape Eleuthera, Bahamas In the winter of 2003 The Island School is hosting a Permaculture Design and Ecological Architecture course on its South Eleuthera campus. These professionally guided programs will explore sustainable agriculture and place-based architecture as they apply to subtropical regions. The Permaculture Designerâs Course certifies students in Permaculture Design÷an internationally recognized professional license. The Ecological Architecture Course leads students through the design and construction phases of vernacular architecture and green building. Both courses have been developed by an integrated team of Island School designers, Bahamian artisans, professional builders and Permaculturists. International leaders in design, economics, government, and ecology are converging on The Island School campus from February 7-9, 2003. Students in these courses will have invaluable exposure to this leading edge dialogue and will help to shape this conference through their project. The Island School is a place-based semester program for high school students from the US, The Bahamas and abroad. A pioneer in conservation education, the School has become a hub for ecological design in The Bahamas. Our campus is home to an array of innovations such as constructed wetlands, wind and solar electricity, cordwood masonry architecture, and organic food production. These two courses will be integrated within the larger systems of the School and are key components in this model of sustainable development. Cost varies per course and includes all transportation, food and lodging on island. College course credit available. Registration by email or phone. If you have any questions, please contact Ben Falk. The Island School ð (242) 359-7625 ð [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more information visit www.islandschool.org "Intelligent Design" link - Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Ecological Design in The Bahamas...
Hello folks, This is an opportunity I thought some of you might be very interested in... Ecological Design Courses & Sustainability Summit January 25÷February 13, 2003 The Island School÷Cape Eleuthera, Bahamas In the winter of 2003 The Island School is hosting a Permaculture Design and Ecological Architecture course on its South Eleuthera campus. These professionally guided programs will explore sustainable agriculture and place-based architecture as they apply to subtropical regions. The Permaculture Designerâs Course certifies students in Permaculture Design÷an internationally recognized professional license. The Ecological Architecture Course leads students through the design and construction phases of vernacular architecture and green building. Both courses have been developed by an integrated team of Island School designers, Bahamian artisans, professional builders and Permaculturists. International leaders in design, economics, government, and ecology are converging on The Island School campus from February 7-9, 2003. Students in these courses will have invaluable exposure to this leading edge dialogue and will help to shape this conference through their project. The Island School is a place-based semester program for high school students from the US, The Bahamas and abroad. A pioneer in conservation education, the School has become a hub for ecological design in The Bahamas. Our campus is home to an array of innovations such as constructed wetlands, wind and solar electricity, cordwood masonry architecture, and organic food production. These two courses will be integrated within the larger systems of the School and are key components in this model of sustainable development. Cost varies per course and includes all transportation, food and lodging on island. College course credit available. Registration by email or phone. If you have any questions, please contact Ben Falk. The Island School ð (242) 359-7625 ð [EMAIL PROTECTED] For more information visit www.islandschool.org - Do you Yahoo!? New DSL Internet Access from SBC & Yahoo! [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
