Re: [Biofuel] Hypothetical Waste Management
So you are looking for a useful, non-harmful use for arsenic? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dave Hajoglou Sent: Monday, April 04, 2011 9:09 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Hypothetical Waste Management To the list, I was pondering some facets of well water contaminants. For the purposes of this discussion, I want to limit the factors that make up the scenario. First, lets presume that there is nothing malicious inherent in the problem, nor are there human factors that can be mitigated. Second, we will presume that the treatment options have been vetted and are selected for their optimum potential. Third, Chip, you're responses are limited to under 10,000 words ;) The scenario is this: There are naturally occurring chemicals in some well water that can be harmful to humans. Lets say we are using one of these wells and we know, as stated above, that the contaminants are simply a cause of the water coming into contact with high concentrations of lead or zinc, etc. We have a few possible alternatives to treat the water like a solar still or through the use of home made charcoal. In all cases, we will be left with the pollutants in a more concentrated form. In an ideal situation, we would be able to use these byproducts in a useful way, and that would, of course, depend on what we have left over. What do we do with this stuff in a non-ideal situation? Lets presume, for the sake of this discussion, that our water supply is located in a hard rock region and we have small amounts of arsenic but enough to warrant concern. If we filter with carbon, we have arsenic in the carbon, if we distill we're left with arsenic in the bottom of the still. I'm sure the list can come up with grander and better ways to clean the water, but if we're still left with the arsenic then we need not discuss the processing (remember, it's presumed to be optimal). So, what do we do with this arsenic aside from simply not using the water (which may be the only choice)? This quandary was prompted by some pollution cleanup efforts for old mines. They plant reeds that consume the mercury from water discharge but then... what happens to the reeds? Remember though, we are not discussing mine waste, this is a naturally source of arsenic. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1209 / Virus Database: 1500/3548 - Release Date: 04/03/11 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20110404/328fd12c/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Paying for fire response service (was Alabama Town's Failed Pension..)
That scenario works fine as long as.1. The bank doesn't catch on (they can call you home loan for non-compliance with terms) and, more importantly 2. You don't have any equity in your home. If you have a $200,000 house and own $100,000 then you stand to lose $100,000 when the house burns down/blows down/explodes/or collapses. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Street Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 10:35 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Paying for fire response service (was Alabama Town's Failed Pension..) I canceled my house insurance years ago and the bank that holds my mortgage is none the wiser. Why should I pay the premiums? If the place burns I can declare personal bankruptcy like any corporate entity. Why should individuals play any differently? Joe Tom Thiel wrote: One element that serves to equalize the decision forces is the cost of insurance premiums. A homeowner who chose to opt-out by not paying the annual fee would face fire insurance cancellation, astronomical premiums or non-collection of damages upon investigation after an unprotected fire. If an institution (the bank) holds a mortgage on the house, it would require fire (and other) insurance which would require fire protection. Such forces serve to overwhelm the majority of people's potential decision to not support the local fire protection service. Common-good systems require participation by all affected parties. Withdrawal from a system is something that an adult might choose. Such decisions have real consequences. This scenario brings such consequences into clear focus. Tom Thiel USA ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3349 - Release Date: 12/30/10 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101231/cefbcaa7/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Paying for fire response service (was Alabama Town's Failed Pension..)
I like the idea of charging drunken drivers for emergency response. I wish we would implement that here. Your discussion of fire service Not to critcize your views, but fire and other catastrophic protection must be free. Presumes that you don't currently pay for fire service, but you do, you just don't realize it. The MOD gets taxes from your federal government to pay for this service so the service isn't free, everyone contributes based on your countries taxing model. In the case of the guy who's house burned down over the $75.00 fee the people had voted not to pay for fire service, they didn't want it, they didn't want to pay for it - which is their right. A nearby town offered to provide it on a fee basis for anyone who wanted it, that doesn't require them to respond to those that don't want it and didn't pay for it. How it functions in Europe, particularly Slovenia where I live, is like this: pro and voluntary fire/other catastrophic/ response teams work side by side. The pro firemen are financed by the ministry of defence (tax money), as is searchrescue. Voluntary fire stations are quite common in rural areas, but metropolitan voluntary fire stations are not an exception. It's considered a hobby for addults, a passtime for youngsters (boys and girls alike), something to do to get out of the house. You don't pay firefighting, not as a yearly fee and not as a one time or event based payment. What you can do is buy a calendar from the local firefighters each year (you pay as much as you feel), or you visit your local firefighters at one of their fundraiser garden parties. Everybody is invited, but funds are not raised per se, e.g., you can contribute if you like, but you're not obliged. The most of the money they get on a garden party is by selling drinks and food. Needless to say, these garden parties are fierce. If you're not used to have serious fun, don't stay too late. Depending on the coverage, the voluntary firefighting societies can get vehicles and equipment paid by the MOD, for example: if the local voluntary firefighters cover a part of the autobahn, they will get hydraulic tools for rescuing passengers from crashed cars and a vehicle to carry them. What you do pay for, is if you need water delivered. But this is a symbolic fee, like you pay for the water, the fuel needed for the engine and a small tip for the driver. This is used a lot in places that run on cisterns. Search and rescue is free except in the case you're drunk. Then there is the possiblity of a full rescue fee to pay. Which in the case of a helicopter transport can be ouch. Not to critcize your views, but fire and other catastrophic protection must be free. No matter whether you live in the city or 20 miles out. Slovenian firefighters, specially the voluntary societies, will travel 100 and more kilometers to help their mates out in heavier events. Distance is no argument. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ _ No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1191 / Virus Database: 1435/3349 - Release Date: 12/30/10 -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101231/d70b2638/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article)
The situation cited below is interesting. The person whos house burned for $75.00 actually lived in the country. The rural residents dont pay taxes for fire service (they could if they wanted to). So, since the rural residents didnt want to tax themselves to provide a fire service a nearby town said they could provide to any individual that wanted to pay for it. This guys son had a house fire also, also hadnt paid his $75.00 annual fee, but was allowed to pay it once the house caught on fire. Once that happened many people conveniently forgot, assuming that they could just pay when the fire happened, if no fire, save your $75.00. Anyway a new rule was implemented saying that if you dont pay your $75.00 you are out of luck, that was done to encourage as many as possible to pay for this service and not wait until their home catches on fire. Had it not been for the nearby town offering fire service for a fee, no one would have responded. The neighbor to the guy whos house burned, had paid his $75.00 and his house was protected from the fire spreading. The system actually works pretty good, if you pay, but these residents decided themselves that they didnt need government provided fire service. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:17 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) Luckily , in Australia, virtually all the Rural Fire services are staffed by volunteers (although there are some paid positions in support areas, Govt funded). I live on rural acreage, some fdunds go to the RFS as donations, but there is no compulsion. I was really surprised with the claim about US rural FS: Australia has on occasions sent brigades from Australia to help fight the big fires in the US ( the US has reciprocated for Australia on occasions). The insurance link to fire brigades also happened in Australia in the 1800´s: there was a plaque attached to the front of the house proving you had insurance. (These are now a collectors item). House insurance now contains a levy that helps fund the Urban fire services. AS I stated, Rural Fire Services are volunteers, with some Govt funding for equipment overheads. regards Doug On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:53:34 am Erik Lane wrote: On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 6:32 AM, Ivan Menchero [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Ivan PS: I am surprise the have not privatize the fire department in the USA! so you pay a monthly insurance' and if you do not pay and there is a fire in your house you are out of luck! Unfortunately there are at least some fire departments that already do work like that. Here's a story about one that let a house burn, and the outrage over it was slim to none, that I saw. I'm very disappointed in the way things are going. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/ No pay, no spray: Firefighters let home burn Tennessee house in ashes after homeowner 'forgot' to pay $75 fee Below: 1. - x - Jump to video People step up to help Gene Cranick http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-2 - video http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-2 2. - x Jump to vote Results below http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-3 - vote http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-3 3. - x Next story in Life Storm, blizzard warnings stretch along Atlantic http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40810424/ns/weather/ - related http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-4 - - Advertisement | ad info http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26613008/ msnbc.com msnbc.com updated 10/6/2010 12:48:23 PM ET 2010-10-06T16:48:23 - Share [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Print http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/# http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/ - Font: - + - - Firefighters in rural Tennessee let a home burn to the ground last week because the homeowner hadn't paid a $75 fee. Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat. They could have been saved if they had put water on it, but they didn't do it, Cranick told MSNBC's Keith Olbermann. The fire started when the Cranicks' grandson was burning trash near the family home. As it grew out of control, the Cranicks called 911, but the fire department from the nearby city of South Fulton would not respond. We wasn't on their list, he said the operators told him. Cranick, who lives outside the city limits, admits he forgot to pay the annual $75 fee. The county does not have a county-wide firefighting service, but South Fulton offers fire coverage to rural residents for a fee. Cranick says he told the operator he would pay
Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article)
What insurance company was your main customer? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Arnold Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:09 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article) Yes, that's because insurance companies' business model is to 1) accept money in return for a promise to give it back when needed and then 2) don't give it back. That's it. Their profit is inversely related to their payouts. I used to work for a small software startup which made a kind of auto insurance claims management/decision support software that was supposed to account for the fact that newbie claims adjusters were all over the map when it came to payouts. Our software would use custom calculations based on different scenarios to set the upper and lower limits of a given payout and would prompt the claims adjuster to find a number between those limits. It worked really well -- I learned that our main customer was thrilled with it when they discovered that after using our software for one year they had saved $50 million USD in payouts. That's $50 million that was given to them by California drivers in the expectation that the money would be paid back out in the event of an accident; money which the company kept for itself instead. So instead of buying $50 million worth of car repair and medical bills or whatever people needed, it paid for $50 million worth of hookers and blow for insurance company executives.* I no longer work for this company, but I hear they are doing very well. * This may not literally be true. I don't care. -Original Message- From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Dec 28, 2010 6:41 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article) Same here. That's quite common in rural areas here. Often property taxes via special levies that we vote upon fund the equipment, etc, but the staff volunteers their time. The insurance companies don't like this and charge higher premiums than houses in town with a paid fire department but we're also finding out after 170 houses burned in the forest fire this fall that so called insurance is quite a scam as they are trying to avoid paying the benefits that were supposedly paid for. On Tuesday, December 28, 2010, Jason Mier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have never, and will never live in an area where the fire department is a paid service. all the FD's around me are volunteer, except for the village, which is paid via property taxes, and when the opportunity arises, i do in fact volunteer my time to the department. any other scheme is by and large, foolish. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:16:45 +1100 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) Luckily , in Australia, virtually all the Rural Fire services are staffed by volunteers (although there are some paid positions in support areas, Govt funded). I live on rural acreage, some fdunds go to the RFS as donations, but there is no compulsion. I was really surprised with the claim about US rural FS: Australia has on occasions sent brigades from Australia to help fight the big fires in the US ( the US has reciprocated for Australia on occasions). The insurance link to fire brigades also happened in Australia in the 1800´s: there was a plaque attached to the front of the house proving you had insurance. (These are now a collectors item). House insurance now contains a levy that helps fund the Urban fire services. AS I stated, Rural Fire Services are volunteers, with some Govt funding for equipment overheads. regards Doug On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:53:34 am Erik Lane wrote: On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 6:32 AM, Ivan Menchero [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Ivan PS: I am surprise the have not privatize the fire department in the USA! so you pay a monthly insurance' and if you do not pay and there is a fire in your house you are out of luck! Unfortunately there are at least some fire departments that already do work like that. Here's a story about one that let a house burn, and the outrage over it was slim to none, that I saw. I'm very disappointed in the way things are going. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/ No pay, no spray: Firefighters let home burn Tennessee house in ashes after homeowner 'forgot' to pay $75 fee Below: 1. - x - Jump to video People step up to help Gene Cranick http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-2 - video http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/#slice-2 2. - x Jump to vote Results below
Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article)
If the fire department accepted the payment at the time of the fire, no one would pay until their house was on fire, the $75.00 - $150.00 / year wouldn’t pay for much of a fire department. The residents were the ones to decide they didn’t want fire service. It’s like saying that I shouldn’t have to pay for a military, until the invaders try to take over my property, then I could be charged a fee for defense. It costs something to have these services available and if it were a – pay at the time of the fire – service the cost would not have been $75.00 but likely hundreds of thousands, which I am sure this guy couldn’t have paid. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Arnold Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 3:17 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) Except that $75 has very little to do with the actual cost of fighting the fire; and accepting the money at the time of the fire would have done just as much to offset the cost of the fire as accepting it earlier would have. So saying the system works if you pay isn't quite true: the luckless resident offered to pay, would have paid, could have paid -- so if the system works if you pay then the system could have worked right then and there. But it *didn't* work because the $75 and the refusal to put out the fire is nothing more than a childish moral scold that benefits nobody, penalizes everybody, and only gratifies the shriveled hearts of right-wing authoritarians. -Original Message- From: Dan Beukelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Dec 30, 2010 12:26 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension isa Warning(NYT-article) The situation cited below is interesting. The person who’s house burned for $75.00 actually lived in the country. The rural residents don’t pay taxes for fire service (they could if they wanted to). So, since the rural residents didn’t want to tax themselves to provide a fire service a nearby town said they could provide to any individual that wanted to pay for it. This guys son had a house fire also, also hadn’t paid his $75.00 annual fee, but was allowed to pay it once the house caught on fire. Once that happened many people conveniently forgot, assuming that they could just pay when the fire happened, if no fire, save your $75.00. Anyway a new rule was implemented saying that if you don’t pay your $75.00 you are out of luck, that was done to encourage as many as possible to pay for this service and not wait until their home catches on fire. Had it not been for the nearby town offering fire service for a fee, no one would have responded. The neighbor to the guy who’s house burned, had paid his $75.00 and his house was protected from the fire spreading. The system actually works pretty good, if you pay, but these residents decided themselves that they didn’t need government provided fire service. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Doug Sent: Tuesday, December 28, 2010 4:17 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) Luckily , in Australia, virtually all the Rural Fire services are staffed by volunteers (although there are some paid positions in support areas, Govt funded). I live on rural acreage, some fdunds go to the RFS as donations, but there is no compulsion. I was really surprised with the claim about US rural FS: Australia has on occasions sent brigades from Australia to help fight the big fires in the US ( the US has reciprocated for Australia on occasions). The insurance link to fire brigades also happened in Australia in the 1800´s: there was a plaque attached to the front of the house proving you had insurance. (These are now a collectors item). House insurance now contains a levy that helps fund the Urban fire services. AS I stated, Rural Fire Services are volunteers, with some Govt funding for equipment overheads. regards Doug On Mon, 27 Dec 2010 05:53:34 am Erik Lane wrote: On Sun, Dec 26, 2010 at 6:32 AM, Ivan Menchero [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Ivan PS: I am surprise the have not privatize the fire department in the USA! so you pay a monthly insurance' and if you do not pay and there is a fire in your house you are out of luck! Unfortunately there are at least some fire departments that already do work like that. Here's a story about one that let a house burn, and the outrage over it was slim to none, that I saw. I'm very disappointed in the way things are going. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39516346/ns/us_news-life/ No pay, no spray: Firefighters let home burn Tennessee house in ashes after homeowner 'forgot' to pay $75 fee Below: 1. - x - Jump to video People step up to help Gene Cranick http
Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article)
Well the only reason to ask for me was because many, if not most insurance companies in the US (for example State Farm – the largest insurer in the US) for property and casualty insurance are “mutual” insurance companies meaning they are owned by their customers. This is not to say that the execs don’t spend the profits on hookers and blow, but the customer owner’s should then vote for a board that will fire those people. There is power in being a customer of a mutual insurance company. You can vote for board members and make sure they are acting in your best interest. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Arnold Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 5:02 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article) Dan, I'm very sorry to say that I'm paranoid enough to not want to say. You may cynically assume that I am lying, of course, and if corporate power didn't routinely stomp little people like me to death worldwide without a second thought, I would cynically agree with you. -Original Message- From: Dan Beukelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Dec 30, 2010 12:47 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension isa Warning (NYT-article) What insurance company was your main customer? From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Tyler Arnold Sent: Wednesday, December 29, 2010 2:09 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org; sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article) Yes, that's because insurance companies' business model is to 1) accept money in return for a promise to give it back when needed and then 2) don't give it back. That's it. Their profit is inversely related to their payouts. I used to work for a small software startup which made a kind of auto insurance claims management/decision support software that was supposed to account for the fact that newbie claims adjusters were all over the map when it came to payouts. Our software would use custom calculations based on different scenarios to set the upper and lower limits of a given payout and would prompt the claims adjuster to find a number between those limits. It worked really well -- I learned that our main customer was thrilled with it when they discovered that after using our software for one year they had saved $50 million USD in payouts. That's $50 million that was given to them by California drivers in the expectation that the money would be paid back out in the event of an accident; money which the company kept for itself instead. So instead of buying $50 million worth of car repair and medical bills or whatever people needed, it paid for $50 million worth of hookers and blow for insurance company executives.* I no longer work for this company, but I hear they are doing very well. * This may not literally be true. I don't care. -Original Message- From: Zeke Yewdall [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Dec 28, 2010 6:41 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article) Same here. That's quite common in rural areas here. Often property taxes via special levies that we vote upon fund the equipment, etc, but the staff volunteers their time. The insurance companies don't like this and charge higher premiums than houses in town with a paid fire department but we're also finding out after 170 houses burned in the forest fire this fall that so called insurance is quite a scam as they are trying to avoid paying the benefits that were supposedly paid for. On Tuesday, December 28, 2010, Jason Mier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i have never, and will never live in an area where the fire department is a paid service. all the FD's around me are volunteer, except for the village, which is paid via property taxes, and when the opportunity arises, i do in fact volunteer my time to the department. any other scheme is by and large, foolish. From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: Tue, 28 Dec 2010 21:16:45 +1100 Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) Luckily , in Australia, virtually all the Rural Fire services are staffed by volunteers (although there are some paid positions in support areas, Govt funded). I live on rural acreage, some fdunds go to the RFS as donations, but there is no compulsion. I was really surprised with the claim about US rural FS: Australia has on occasions sent brigades from Australia to help fight the big fires in the US ( the US has reciprocated for Australia on occasions). The insurance link to fire brigades also happened in Australia in the 1800´s
Re: [Biofuel] Paying for fire response service (was Alabama Town's Failed Pension..)
200 structures per year, which seems high to me). If we only charge those whose structures actually require a call-out (user-pay to the extreme), the cost to them will be $15,000 per call-out. (At that price, I expect some will decline the service when it arrives, and will take higher personal risks trying to fight the fire themselves.) If they are not home to approve the charges, it is allowed to burn down without intervention. Seems less than optimal to me. Or we can move to the community pays model. Everybody pays $75 a year, and no questions about fighting the fire, whether anybody is home or not. Either via a tax, a subscription or whatever. Of course, someone will object to this tax or fee, as they can better spend it on 15 Starbucks coffees (or whatever). So, the inevitable result is that the number of funders will decrease, likely slowly at first (the freeloader model). But after a couple of years, the volunteers will get tired of going door to door begging for renewals. Some folks will figure, I didn't need the fire department for the past few years, so why not save the $75. Eventually, half the people don't subscribe, and the cost goes up to $150 a year for those that do. Somebody has a fire that is not a subscriber, and the volunteer fire department puts out their fire anyway because they agree to accept payment on the spot of whatever the going rate is. Word gets out that this happened. Next year, nobody pays for a subscription, figuring they can pay a small amount in the event they ever need the service. The volunteer department goes broke, as they can't make the loan payments on the firehouse, the trucks or the fuel bill. (An enterprising arsonist then wipes out all the structures in the community.) Also seems less than optimal. So, if you are the chief official for the volunteer fire service, and you can't get funded via the tax base, how do you propose to find the revenue to support the minimum required operating costs? Labour is already free or very close to it. Probably not paying municipal taxes on the firehouse. But there are real costs associated with having the building and equipment. Personally, I think I would end up where this situation did. I would elect to try to keep the service operational, hoping residents would have the sense to support it. However, if not supported by taxes or some form of mandatory payment, I expect with time someone will choose not to pay. Eventually comes the tough decision. If they have a fire, and have not paid to support the (volunteer) service, do you provide the service anyway (which will eventually lead to the end of the service being viable for the whole community), or do you make a very harsh example 'pour encourager les autres'? I'm curious, and looking for responses from this list. If you are in the position of the chief official, how do you fund desirable, low rate of incidence, high consequences, prevention operations when there are no mandatory mechanisms available? If you are in the position of a homeowner, and the funding mechanism is not mandatory, do you pay the annual subscription? Is there a price point where you will choose not to pay? What would motivate you to pay or not pay if the amount is small? Darryl On 30/12/2010 4:17 PM, Tyler Arnold wrote: Except that $75 has very little to do with the actual cost of fighting the fire; and accepting the money at the time of the fire would have done just as much to offset the cost of the fire as accepting it earlier would have. So saying the system works if you pay isn't quite true: the luckless resident offered to pay, would have paid, could have paid -- so if the system works if you pay then the system could have worked right then and there. But it *didn't* work because the $75 and the refusal to put out the fire is nothing more than a childish moral scold that benefits nobody, penalizes everybody, and only gratifies the shriveled hearts of right-wing authoritarians. -Original Message- From: Dan Beukelman[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Dec 30, 2010 12:26 PM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning(NYT-article) The situation cited below is interesting. The person who’s house burned for $75.00 actually lived in the country. The rural residents don’t pay taxes for fire service (they could if they wanted to). So, since the rural residents didn’t want to tax themselves to provide a fire service a nearby town said they could provide to any individual that wanted to pay for it. This guys son had a house fire also, also hadn’t paid his $75.00 annual fee, but was allowed to pay it once the house caught on fire. Once that happened many people conveniently forgot, assuming that they could just pay when the fire happened, if no fire, save your $75.00. Anyway a new rule was implemented saying that if you don’t pay your $75.00 you are out of luck
Re: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article)
Michele, I don't know that the Federal Government would be - on the hook - PBGC only insures Pensions from Private companies in this case it's the retired workers who could be out. It's a lesson in the need for good financial planning and not putting all of your eggs in 1 basket. This reminds me of the Enron collapse. So many people had all of their retirement tied up in Enron, when the company went under, so did they. Pensions should not exist. They are plagued with problems and seldom funded correctly. At least with a 401k I can make my investment decisions and I know that what I get depends on what I contribute. Dan From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michele Stephenson Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 11:36 AM Subject: [Biofuel] Alabama Town's Failed Pension is a Warning (NYT-article) For those of you who live in the US an article of interest... For those who live outside looking in, it's no big surprise Private Company and Industry pensions plans have all but gone away. The substitute is the 401K that no one is really responsible for except the investor to make the best choice for Self. However, for those who work for local and state govt agencies this is something to watch and investigate especially if you are currently receiving a pension or will receive a pension in the next years to come. What is as important if not more important to watch is how these issues will be resolved. In the article below, if the judicial system does not get involved, then mediation is an option which usually results in a cut in benefits. I doubt for those struggling funds one mediation is all it will take. Mediation could possibly take place with every local and state legislative session resulting in a cut every time. For those funds that do get processed in the court system it will likely go to the respective State Supreme Court and ultimately the US Supreme Court. If localities are legitimately declared bankrupt and no longer required to pay pensions it is the federal govt's responsibility to do so. In effect, we all pay for lack of managment and corruption in Anywhere, USA. And once this precedent is established there will be a landslide of 'toxic' pensions to be dealt with (or not). It is the future. If you don't think so, Iceland is bankrupt from investing in bonds that were rated as A by unscrupulous wall street fund managers/business men/swindlers when they should have been rated as Junk level. Greece is bankrupt. Ireland is bankrupt. Portugal is bankrupt. Spain will possibly be bankrupt by this time next year. And the US's current financial situation, if scrutinized by the IMF credit rating system used on these same bankrupt countries, is on the verge of changing to riskier interest rates based on our debt and GDP and other indicators (just like the above countries with exception of Iceland). What do all these countries have in common? They are followed the same financial paradigm: loans/debt to stimulate economy. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/40793765/ns/us_news-the_new_york_times/ Full Text below: PRICHARD, Ala. - This struggling small city on the outskirts of Mobile was warned for years that if it did nothing, its pension fund would run out of money by 2009. Right on schedule, its fund ran dry. Then Prichard did something that pension experts say they have never seen before: it stopped sending monthly pension checks to its 150 retired workers, breaking a state law requiring it to pay its promised retirement benefits in full. Since then, Nettie Banks, 68, a retired Prichard police and fire dispatcher, has filed for bankruptcy. Alfred Arnold, a 66-year-old retired fire captain, has gone back to work as a shopping mall security guard to try to keep his house. Eddie Ragland, 59, a retired police captain, accepted help from colleagues, bake sales and collection jars after he was shot by a robber, leaving him badly wounded and unable to get to his new job as a police officer at the regional airport. Far worse was the retired fire marshal who died in June. Like many of the others, he was too young to collect Social Security. When they found him, he had no electricity and no running water in his house, said David Anders, 58, a retired district fire chief. He was a proud enough man that he wouldn't accept help. The situation in Prichard is extremely unusual - the city has sought bankruptcy protection twice - but it proves that the unthinkable can, in fact, sometimes happen. And it stands as a warning to cities like Philadelphia and states like Illinois, whose pension funds are under great strain: if nothing changes, the money eventually does run out, and when that happens, misery and turmoil follow. More U.S. news More retirees moving in with their children As retirement investments erode during the economic crisis, the number of multigenerational family households has been growing - returning to a trend from half a century ago. Full
[Biofuel] greenhouse farming
Hello All, I have read your posts for several years, but have not ever posted - lurking in the shadows I guess. I am wondering if anyone out there has any thoughts/experience with production agriculture from a greenhouse/hothouse structure. I live in South Dakota and have been thinking that with energy efficient glass and the right setup that growing fresh vegetables likes tomatoes year around might be possible (I say this with a wind chill today near 0 fahrenheit). I have read that many of the US tomato supply is grown in Canada, which is colder than us, our area is dominated by grain farming - but I think that local foods stores would go nuts over a locally grown garden type tomato in the Wintertime. The construction costs of a very efficient greenhouse should be able to be covered by the profit from selling a well growing tomato crop, but the profits go out the window if you have the heat much. All of the greenhouses I know of around here use plastic coverings and that is only useful for extending the growing season a little bit on both ends. I am thinking of keeping growth all year or nearly all year. Any thoughts? Dan -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20101130/bf56a83d/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
