Re: [biofuel] Solar Tractor
as can dirt humidity and vibration on any system. If they are designed properly in the first place I don't see that it would be a problem. All the electronics could be potted once the heat problems are worked out. They should last indefinitely then. I think the problem with electric vehicles is that because they are new and different they never get past the prototype stage before the press slams them for breaking down. If it was a conventional vehicle, I am thinking of the merc A series, with a fundamental design flaw like falling over going round corners, it is whisked off the market and redesigned. The problem with the electric tractor is apparent in the last set of figures on 20 year costs. If you are selling tractors you can make 3.8 times more money out of conventional tractors as well as all the spare parts you can sell as well. Sad but true money makes the world go round. If the tractor manufacturers were made to pay for the pollution there products caused... The economics are never going to work out from a manufacturers point of view unless total pollution costs are borne by them. Not in my lifetime. Opps another long ramble...sorry... bobgolding - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2001 2:29 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Solar Tractor > > Its a Nobel idea but I don't think I'll be trading my diesel tractor in for > one anytime soon. Until the cost and technology are more affordable and > reliable, I don't think solar tractors are very practical machines for > serious work. Dirt, heat and humidity can be a real pain on electronics and > electric components. > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: making filters
Hi Dale, I noticed the filters as well ,but never thought to complement you on them, honest !! I have looked at lots of filters in the local scrapyard and thought that looks like Dales filter. I have been reluctant to buy any though as I don't know what they might have been filtering. Some photos would be great. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 11:19 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: making filters > Wow! Someone finally noticed my filters! I am as proud of the > filters as I am the rest of the processor; maybe more so. > > The filters are made from 4" PVC (the outer housing) and 3" PVC > (which extends into the 4" PVC, through a rubber coupling) The felt > filter bag is pulled over the 3" pipe and clamped with a hose clamp. > > The adapters at the ends of the filters will depend upon what > ultimate pipe size you plan to use for hooking into everything else. > > If this description doesn't make sense, I'll take them apart, take a > few pictures, and put them on the home page. I probably need to > change the bags anyway. > > Dale > > --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Dennis Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Dear Group: > > I was admiring Dale Scroggins pvc filters and > > wondering how to make some like them. I didn't see an > > email address for his setup so I'm sending my question > > abroad. Thanks for any info. > > > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > __ > > Do You Yahoo!? > > Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! > Messenger > > http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Ethanol is a net energy loser~Bigtime
All this might be very true,but will we still using the infernal combustion engine in 50 years time,? I seriously doubt it. It is noisy polluting,grossly inefficient and dirty. The only reason we are still using it is because of the power of oil industry, take that away and we open the door to much more efficient cleaner technologies. The problem is not the technology it is the stranglehold the oil industry has over the fuel supply. There are much better ways to provide motive force to a vehicle than burning oil in it. Remember if you do the maths to include costs of extraction, refining and transport and distribution in to the equation. This is as well as maintaining the status quo with arms sales. Burning oil in a ICE is a criminal waste of a useful finite resource,as well as propping up some very iffy regimes in far off lands. Think of that next time you fill up. The problem is not technological it is political. Always has been always will be. Just think if you owned an oil company would you be any hurry to shoot yourself in the foot by promoting an alternative to your endless supply of gold. It would be a brave government who takes on organisations with so much clout. If we all made our own fuel legally and the profits started to drop,then we might have some progress. I somehow think if it got to that stage it would become illegal to make your own fuel. Off soap box back to making some bio-diesel. bob golding - Original Message - From: "Hanns B. Wetzel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2001 5:32 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Ethanol is a net energy loser~Bigtime > No doubt all what professor Pimentel has said is absolutely correct. But in > 50 years time when world conventional oil production is down to 17 billion > barrels per day and demand for oil equivalent in liquid fuels is 70 billion > barrels per day, American motor vehicles are not going to be powered solely > by ethanol produced from corn. > > There will be other far more efficient methods of producing energy for > transportation. Enzymatic conversion of cellulosic feed stocks to sugars and > alcohols will no doubt be one of them. If we already have the technology to > clone stud animals today, then surely we will soon have the technology to > genetically engineer plants that produce their own enzymes not only for > cellulose-sugar conversion, but also sugar-alcohol conversion. We will > simply mash up these plants, put them into a fermentation tank, add water, > raise the temperature and distil the resulting beer. > > Deriving liquid fuels from natural gas, coal, shale, tar sands and methane > hydrates etc. will not only be too expensive, but also create atmospheric, > land and water pollution which by 2050 will no longer be politically > acceptable in any part of the world. Therefore a combination of reduced > demand for liquid fuels and cheap bio fuels produced from dedicated energy > crops is the most likely long term scenario. > > In the meantime however, what if it takes 70% more energy to produce ethanol > from corn that the ethanol produces? It is good for the atmosphere, it is > good for the farmers, it makes cars run better and it boosts technology > development. > > So the industry is subsidised. What would we rather do? Spend the tax dollar > on something that is good for the rural GDP and good for the planet, or make > OPEC wealthier, spew more CO2 into the atmosphere and have our economies run > down a path of ever increasing environmental cost and diminishing resources. > > Sometimes one wonders what these so called scientists do for common sense. > They are so busy investigating, analysing, and tabulating, that they loose > sight of the practical world that we live in. > > Hanns > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 9 August 2001 12:22 AM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [biofuel] Ethanol is a net energy loser~Bigtime > > > http://www.news.cornell.edu/releases/Aug01/corn-basedethanol.hrs.html > > [i]Ethanol fuel from corn faulted as 'unsustainable subsidized food > burning' in analysis by Cornell scientist > FOR RELEASE: Aug. 6, 2001 > Contact: Roger Segelken > Office: 607-255-9736 > E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -snip-- > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messag
Re: [biofuel] Hemp in America
- Original Message - From: "L Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2001 7:13 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Hemp in America Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: New Paint - Same Nukes was Re: [biofuel] Nuclear
You wouldn't think so from the publicity that BNFL puts out. Come and see how safe Windscale/Sellafield (change the name get rid of the problem) is. You can eat your tea off the floor,or at least off the glossy brochure. That reactor was the same design as Chernobyl. The only safe nuclear reactor is one not operated by humans. I would place it about 93,000,000 miles away,they lye back and enjoy it. bob golding - Original Message - From: "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 1:51 AM Subject: RE: New Paint - Same Nukes was Re: [biofuel] Nuclear > Carbon or graphite moderated cores have a fatal flaw. If it catches fire you > are in deep do do. > The plant that burned on the coast of England was graphite moderated. > Permanently poisoned a large area. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Runs on air
I suspect from the general tone that the blurb was written by an ad agency and is not in the original language. Pushing the source of pollution as far away as possible from the product you are trying to sell is a very old trick. Haven't worked out how it works yet. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2001 1:35 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Runs on air > um, well, what energy source is he using to compress the air? > > how much energy is lost during the compression stage? > > me thinks me smells entropy.. > > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: > http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm > > Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com > Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm > X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax > We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, > we borrow it from our children. > -- > > - Original Message - > From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, July 20, 2001 11:53 AM > Subject: [biofuel] Runs on air > > > > http://www.theaircar.com/ > > MDI, the AIR CAR. > > > > ... It all indicates that the MDI air compressed engine will become > > one of the major discoveries of the newly entered century. The > > inventor, Guy Ngre, has developed an engine capable of propelling a > > car up to 110 Km/h, that can cover a distance of 300 km with one tank > > refill and a cost of less than a cent per kilometre. Not only > > providing "Zero pollution" but also purifying the air. > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] auction of lab equipment
Sorry this is a bit late ,but might be of interest to someone in the UK. http://www.henrybutcher.com/exxonmobil/index.htm It is a complete petrol chemical testing facility. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] zeolite
Hi Ron, Here in the UK 3A zeolite 1.6 -2.5 mm spheres is 20 dollars for 500 grams 30 dollars for 1 kg and 58 dollars for 3 kg. Don't have a clue how much you would need to make a decent amount of anhydrous ethanol. I am new to this as well. If I get any more info I will let you know. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: "ronald miller sr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:38 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite > Ken, > Thanks for the info. I don't have any as yet. In fact I haven't built my > still at this time. The state of Alabama has a lot of restrictions > pertaining to ethanol production. I have written to the governor, the lt > governor, my senators, representatives, the president and vice president > about the laws but all I get back are form letters thanking me for writing. > I don't want to go to jail for making fuel so I am gathering info from any > source I can. Do you have any idea how much zeolite cost? I don't have a > clue. > Thanks for writing. > Ron Miller > - Original Message - > From: Ken Provost <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2001 11:42 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] zeolite > > > > >Hi to all, > > >Does anyone out there know the process for removing water from ethanol > using > > >3A zeolite. I know this is the material used by industry to do this > > >but I'd like to > > >know the process. As I understand it this will remove all the water > content of > > >distilled ethanol. Any remarks? > > > > > >Thanks, > > >Ron Miller > > > > First, make sure it's dry, by heating to about 600 deg. F for several > > hours, then > > cooling back down in dry air. Toss in the required amount with your > hydrous > > ethanol (molecular sieve zeolite absorbs like 25% of its weight in water) > and > > stand back -- it can get HOT. Takes a few hours to get saturated. Oh, I'm > sure > > the pros will talk all about columns of X dia. and Y length, with flow > rates of > > blah, blah, but the simple ways are best. Good luck -- BTW, I only have > free > > samples of this stuff. Did you actually have to PAY for it, and if so, how > much > > (if you don't mind my asking :-)). Check out > > > > http://www.sorbentsystems.com/desiccants_charts.html > > > > for some good info and graphs, and let us know your results. -K > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biodiesel standard
I was told by my local trading standards office that they would be happy if bio diesel came up to BS EN590 standard. Does anyone know what this is . bob golding - Original Message - From: "simon_wells" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2001 12:39 AM Subject: [biofuel] biodiesel standard > The standards can be found at > http://www.biodiesel-intl.com/standards_e/haupt.htm > > http://www.wisa-lab.de/Rapsoel.htm gives the relevent test numbers, > unfortuantley, I've not found where to get details of the tests other than > buying them. > > Simon > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] zeolites
Hi All, Could one of the chemists on the list tell me how to calculate the dimensions of a column of type 3A synthetic zeolites with a diameter of 1.6 -2.5mm for drying ethanol to 98%? I assume there is a fixed ratio of zeolite to flow rate. Also how often does one have to purge the filter, and what is the best way to do this. I was thinking that the safest way to do this would be to have an evacuated tank and draw the ethanol into it though the zeolite filter. Is there a max flow rate that prevents static build up?. One final question. What material would be best to reduce the chance of static build up. I have access to most materials. cheers bob golding [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union
Hi Ronald, I agree that not all Americans are bad,but remember most of what we get in the UK outside of special interest groups like this and some other lists I am on is George yubya and Jerry Springer, Neither of which puts the other 200 million odd in a very good light. I rest my case. bob golding - Original Message - From: "ronald miller sr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 2:04 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union > Hey, come on now, please stop the American bashing. We are all in this > together although I would say we (Americans) should be leading the world in > alternate fuel development. It's really hard for us little guys to fight the > big oil companies and the government. The govenment did send me an > application form for an alternate fuel plant(still)and it was only one form. > As a Scottish American the only suggestion I could give on the sheep > situation is to plug them with a catylitic converter> (Just kidding) I > really appreciate hearing views from other countries and I know a lot of > people don't like us "yanks" but for the most part we are like any other > bloaks around the world. > Best regards, > Ron Miller > - Original Message - > From: David Reid <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 6:24 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union > > > > Chuck, > >You are not an American by any chance are you? As a member of > a > > country with less than 5% of the worlds population (280 million divided > into > > 6 billion = 4.67% by my reckoning) using 60% of the worlds energy maybe > you > > should be listened to and your viewpoint as the biggest energy user have > > dominance. Maybe you are right and its a con job but without people > argueing > > and discussing it no resolution or solutions is/are ever going to evolve > > and resolve the problem if it exists. Personally I think its man using all > > these vehicles and man cutting down all the trees in the world. Or maybe > its > > all these farting sheep down here in NZ. After all there is a big hole > down > > here in the ozone layer near Antartica and if NZ is the closest to it > there > > has to be a reason for it so maybe this sheep idea is not so stupid. > Anyway > > as one of the people who live here and who is obviously one of the main > > contributors who am I to throw stones? > > B.r., David > > > > - Original Message - > > From: Chuck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Wednesday, May 23, 2001 7:44 AM > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Climate Change Debate at the Oxford Union > > > > > > > This climate change propaganda is a con job. Stop the crap. > > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Tallow
I think that the BSE prion does not survive the rendering process. - Original Message - From: "beeteljeuse beelzebub" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 12:52 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Tallow > > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Monday, 14 May 2001 8:16 PM > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: [biofuel] Tallow > > > > > >, > > My name is Frank Wishart from Queensland Australia and i am > >interested in making BioDiesel from low grade tallow one of the > >drawbacks as i see it is the high FFA at +15% althoough if used on a > >daily basis this would be reduced. I have access to 800lt/day and am > >looking into the feasibility of setting up a plant to handle this > >quanity. Has anyone in the group had any experience in Beef tallow, > >As a result of BSE this low grade tallow is readily available and > >inexpensive.. > > You say "As a result of BSE..." Are we talking about using beef tallow from > europe? what is up with this? Are cattle products from affecected nations > even allowed past customs? Good god, I hope not. > > Allen > > _ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
Hi Ron, I don't know about Alabama but in the UK Cargills have the largest, the only, oil processing plant in Europe for making Soya oil, so I suspect it is the same there.They do seem to have the market pretty well stitched up. I don't know if soybean is a good crop for ethanol production, I would have thought not ,but this is not based on any knowledge so don't take it as gospel. cheers bob - Original Message - From: "ronald miller sr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:35 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > Bob, > Is there any info out there regarding soybeans for ethanol use. We grow > millions of pounds here in Alabama > Thanks, > Ron Miller > - Original Message - > From: bob golding <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 6:26 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > > > > If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or > > rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than > > "improving" current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the > > clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all > > the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't > > need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and > sold > > locally. "Economies of scale" is usually a euphemism for larger profits > for > > the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you > > can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in > > exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify > > their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their > > motivation is profit for their shareholders, not "can I take less from the > > enviroment " This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you > don't > > think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. > > cheers > > bob golding > > > > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: > > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM > > Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > > > > > > > Joseph Martelle wrote: > > > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html > > > > > > > >Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever > > > > > > > > > > > > >>>What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high > > yielding? > > > > > > Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not > > > a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. > > > > > > >What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at > > soybean, > > > >rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome > > to > > > >produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the > oil > > yeild > > > >from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this > > area? > > > > > > Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a > > > market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg > > > herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) > > > herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to > > > increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, > > > instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their > > > yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard > > > for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were > > > promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening > > > anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has > > > lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology > > > itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks > > > don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything > > > else much. > > > > > > So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but > > > would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if > > > you look through the amazing history of crop development over the > > > last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the > > > ca
Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
Hi Mike, I was quoting from "From the fryer to the fuel tank" but I do know their was a research group here in Cambridge doing work on algae some years ago. I will try and find out more from my university contacts. bob - Original Message - From: "Mike Brownstone" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 8:03 AM Subject: RE: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > Here, here Bob, > > I've been thinking about this for a while now ( I like the idea of algae > farms ). Can you, perhaps refer me to more information. You know, which > are the best to use, conditions of growing etc.. > > Mike > > -Original Message- > From: bob golding [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 1:27 AM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > > > If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or > rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than > "improving" current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the > clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all > the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't > need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and sold > locally. "Economies of scale" is usually a euphemism for larger profits for > the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you > can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in > exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify > their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their > motivation is profit for their shareholders, not "can I take less from the > enviroment " This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you don't > think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. > cheers > bob golding > > > - Original Message - > From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM > Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > > > > Joseph Martelle wrote: > > > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html > > > > > >Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever > > > > > > > > > >>>What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high > yielding? > > > > Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not > > a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. > > > > >What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at > soybean, > > >rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome > to > > >produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the oil > yeild > > >from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this > area? > > > > Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a > > market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg > > herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) > > herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to > > increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, > > instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their > > yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard > > for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were > > promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening > > anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has > > lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology > > itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks > > don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything > > else much. > > > > So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but > > would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if > > you look through the amazing history of crop development over the > > last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the > > capabilities of traditional plant breeding through selection. It > > works, it's safe, and the benefits are widespread and permanent. > > "Modern plant-breeding has produced nothing to equal the banana," > > said a modern plant-breeder. The banana is a man-made hybrid, > > produced a couple of thousand years ago, by all accounts. It can't > > reprod
Re: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil
If you look at the yields from oil bearing algae compared to soybean or rape, that is the best area to throw the technology at rather than "improving" current crop yields,and pushing bio-diesel further into the clutches of M--s--t- and Ca-g--l and the like Oil,grain,soybeans, it's all the same to them. The beauty of bio-diesel as I see it is that it doesn't need large corporations to make it work. It can be produced locally and sold locally. "Economies of scale" is usually a euphemism for larger profits for the few. It doesn't have to be that way with boid. With petro diesel you can't just go out and drill for it. You have to invest billions in exploration, so the oil companies keep telling us when asked to justify their 3 million pounds a hour or whatever. This may be true ,but their motivation is profit for their shareholders, not "can I take less from the enviroment " This does not strike me as a sustainable system. If you don't think this is true just ask anyone in Southern Nigeria or Columbia. cheers bob golding - Original Message - From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, May 19, 2001 5:47 PM Subject: [biofuel] GE oilseeds - was RE: Palm and coconut oil > Joseph Martelle wrote: > > >http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_yield.html > > > >Vegetable oil yields tables: Journey to Forever > > > > > > >>>What about that Jerusalem artichoke I've read about? Fairly high yielding? > > Not even on the table - loads of carbohydrates (not starch), but not > a lot of oil. Good for ethanol though. > > >What we need is for those genetic engineers to to start looking at soybean, > >rapeseed, peanut, or other oil producing plant and modifying the genome to > >produce more oil than fruit.Can you imagine doubling or tripling the oil yeild > >from rapeseed or soybeans? Has anyone even considered research in this area? > > Dunno, maybe. But most of it so far seems tied either to securing a > market sector or to securing sales of associated products (eg > herbicides). One looks hard for success stories. RR (Roundup-Ready) > herbicide-resistant soybeans are losing their resistance (leading to > increased use of herbicides, up to 30% more than with non-GE soy, > instead of the decreased use we were promised) as well as their > yields - yields are sagging badly. One doesn't have to look too hard > for outright failures (Starlink), and for side-effects we were > promised and assured were impossible but they're now happening > anyway. And of course the whole technology as it applies to food has > lost its consumer acceptance - I don't think it's the technology > itself people don't trust, it's the companies doing it. These folks > don't have a good record with this kind of stuff, nor with anything > else much. > > So I'm sure what you suggest is possible (what isn't these days?) but > would it work out right? And with what unforeseen costs? Anyway, if > you look through the amazing history of crop development over the > last four millenia or so, you end up very impressed with the > capabilities of traditional plant breeding through selection. It > works, it's safe, and the benefits are widespread and permanent. > "Modern plant-breeding has produced nothing to equal the banana," > said a modern plant-breeder. The banana is a man-made hybrid, > produced a couple of thousand years ago, by all accounts. It can't > reproduce itself, all bananas are propagated by hand and always have > been. Wherever Europeans went "discovering" new (to them) parts of > the world, the banana was there before them. It's of immense benefit > to billions of people. Really first-class science. > > I'm not knocking GE, it's an immensely promising field, it's a huge > pity (?) that its development is in the hands of these wisdomless > dumbos who've given us so much else to be less than thankful for. > > A frequent question on the list (but recently, regarding newspapers) > is ethanol production from cellulose, a technology that it seems just > isn't there yet, despite all sorts of promising start-ups and so on. > More info here: Ethanol resources on the Web - see Ethanol from > cellulose: http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html > > It seems the perfect case for a GE organism. Well, it was tried. Do a > message archive search for message #2887 at the list website to see > the results - Alcohol-producing GM bacteria "could destroy all life > on earth", 22 Feb 2001. > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messages > > "Wisdomless dumbos" isn't an exaggeration. The precautionary > princ
