[biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear Michael, tks a lot for your help. So, we can use palm oil direct without transes.? WHich motor modifications do you usually do? Do you know how to do the sme process with Ethanol? Or anyone who does it? regards, Marco --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear Marco, I have plent of Palm Oil. When you mentioned that you used Straight Palm Oil you hadn't transerterificate the oil? That is correct. The first stage of our program was to demonstrate that oil-palm growers could run their farm machinery on straight palm oil (SPO)by making simple engine modifications. The overall aim of the program is to stabilise oil prices for oil-palm growers. That means that we are looking at all aspects of palm-oil use. Incidentally, with respect to the high free fatty acid feeds, the limit to the amount of FFA possible is probably related to the formation of water in Alek's first stage esterification using sulfuric acid as the catalyst. Thus 5%FFA in the oil means that 4mls of water are produced for every litre of oil. This water increases soap formation in the second stage (which is catalysed by sodium hydroxide). Alek Kak's method (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_aleksnew.html) reduces this impact by using 95% pure sulfuric acid which has a strong affinity for water. He also recommends about 9 times the amount of methanol theoretically needed to react with the FFA. This also has the effect of reducing the water concentration. So, for high(er) FFA, more methanol and more sulfuric acid should be beneficial. However, that means more sodium hydroxide to neutralise the acid and some form of methanol recovery system. We use a simple condenser connected to the reactor to grab the methanol. We can either recycle this to the next batch or operate the reactor under total reflux. This makes it possible to operate the reactor at a higher temperature and so accelerate the rate of the separate reactions. Hope this gives you some useful ideas Regards Michael Allen --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear David, We did extensive work last year on heated Straight Palm Oil (SPO) in two-wheeled tractors and fishing boat motors. We had field trials by local farmers of four commercial tractors and did test-bed work with three others. Crude palm oil caused erosion of the pistons by late ignition but refined palm-oil (of the grade used for cooking oil) worked well. But we never got around to using it in a locomotive. This year we have been trying a range of reactor designs to optimise methyl ester production from refined oil. We are now moving back through various forms of oil refinement towards the crude palm oil (CPO). And yes, we are currently using the Aleks Kak two-stage process. And yes it is currently at atmospheric pressure (although the reactor was designed to handle 200 kPa mainly as a safety feature. Even so, some enthusiastic welders have overpressurised it twice now through forgetting to flood (and then drain) it with water before modifying the unit). The locomotive I mentioned is running on a B50 blend: It uses esters from a one stage trans-esterification reaction of methanol with the stearin and palmitin which has separated from the CPO. This waxy stuff is probably quite comparable with the good Scottish lard. Lots of luck! Michael Allen --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your response, prof. Allen. I'll formulate an inquiry to Mohammed Farid as you suggest. You mentioned Thai railway application. I saw somewhere that German railways are using SVO in some of their shunting engines. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53591,00.html Choo-Choo Trains on Energy Crunch The encouraging part of your message is you are reacting at 60C and that this is near methanol boiling point. That implies you are succeeding at atmospheric pressure. Do you use conc. sulphuric acid first stage? I agree meth recovery is so simple that using excess is not really a problem. David T. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX
[biofuels-biz] Re: hi ffa feed stocks
Dear Michael, I have plent of Palm Oil. When you mentioned that you used Straight Palm Oil you hadn't transerterificate the oil? regards, Marco --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Michael Allen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Dear David, We did extensive work last year on heated Straight Palm Oil (SPO) in two-wheeled tractors and fishing boat motors. We had field trials by local farmers of four commercial tractors and did test-bed work with three others. Crude palm oil caused erosion of the pistons by late ignition but refined palm-oil (of the grade used for cooking oil) worked well. But we never got around to using it in a locomotive. This year we have been trying a range of reactor designs to optimise methyl ester production from refined oil. We are now moving back through various forms of oil refinement towards the crude palm oil (CPO). And yes, we are currently using the Aleks Kak two-stage process. And yes it is currently at atmospheric pressure (although the reactor was designed to handle 200 kPa mainly as a safety feature. Even so, some enthusiastic welders have overpressurised it twice now through forgetting to flood (and then drain) it with water before modifying the unit). The locomotive I mentioned is running on a B50 blend: It uses esters from a one stage trans-esterification reaction of methanol with the stearin and palmitin which has separated from the CPO. This waxy stuff is probably quite comparable with the good Scottish lard. Lots of luck! Michael Allen --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for your response, prof. Allen. I'll formulate an inquiry to Mohammed Farid as you suggest. You mentioned Thai railway application. I saw somewhere that German railways are using SVO in some of their shunting engines. http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,53591,00.html Choo-Choo Trains on Energy Crunch The encouraging part of your message is you are reacting at 60C and that this is near methanol boiling point. That implies you are succeeding at atmospheric pressure. Do you use conc. sulphuric acid first stage? I agree meth recovery is so simple that using excess is not really a problem. David T. __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Plant Information
I have being reading many fantastic histories and sugestions here. This, make me bring this question here and I hope anyone can help me. I am looking for a basic plant to make around 10.000 liters month of BD. I intend to use sunflower oil, soybean oil and other vegetable oil together with used vegetable oil from the food market. Is there any company that offer a basic plant to process it? I would like to use Ethanol instead of Methanol. In the same time, is there any consultant or organization who provide information to help us to build this plant? tks, Marco Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/mG3HAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: process questions
Dear Peter, I am planning to do a batch with ethanol. Could you help me with it? I am not sure about the process. tks in advance, Marco --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Peter I have some questions regarding a 30 gallon batch I just made and would really appreciate some help. I have been using the 2 stage method this summer with success. I use 6.25 grams of lye/litre of wvo with 25% of the volume of the wvo being methanol. 3/4 of that was added to the wvo and produced syrupy dark brown glycerine (like last time I made it). The next day I added the last 1/4 of the methoxide but did not get the gelatinous glycerine like I did last time, but got the dark liquidy syrup again. I am wondering why. Also, the final product is cloudy which might mean water in it. I have heated the final product to about 135-140 for a half hour but it did not seem to permanently get rid of the cloudiness. I do not wish to do the wash at the end-I've been having success running unwashed, clear fuel. Are you sure? Have you done a respectable mileage and had the motor examined? Washing makes the difference between having corrosive contaminants in your fuel or not having them, no matter how nice it might look. So, knowing that I should heat the wvo hotter and longer before the process What do you do with it before processing it? here are my questions: 1) Why did I not get gelationous glycerine in the second stage? Only a couple of possibilities - either you didn't do the process in the same way, or the oil was that much different. 2 )Is the cloudiness water even though my reliable source of wvo does not let water get into his oil? How does he manage that? So you don't dewater the oil first? I don't have too much faith in the idea of a reliable source. Not at all that he's not a reliable man, but only an industry with a fully controlled and standardized process will always produce just the same kind of oil. Is he an industry? If he's a food outlet, does he produce the same amounts and types of food every day, always prepared in the same way? Anyway, to make sure that it is more or less regular, it might be an idea to titrate a few batches so at least you know what you're working with. Take a little of the cloudy biodiesel and put it in a blender with about the same amount of water (same temperature as the biod), switch on and see what happens. After a minute or two, switch off, and see how long it takes to separate. 3) What temp and how long do you need to heat the final product to evap the water-without evaporating the methanol (which boils off at 140 degrees, I assume). The excess methanol will certainly evaporate before the water. 4) Is the methanol that has successfully mixed with the oil in danger of boiling off above 140 degrees or will only the excess methanol boil off. Two fates of methanol - the stoichiometric quantity (depends on the oil, say 12% v/v oil) becomes part of the methyl ester compound and can't be evaporated short of evaporating the biodiesel itself, at a much higher temp (it's a compound, not just a mixture). The excess methanol, which functions to push the process towards completion, is mostly left in the glycerine layer, with some still in the biodiesel. You don't want it in your biodiesel, it's rather corrosive, one of several good reasons to wash the fuel. This excess methanol will evaporate on heating above 149F. 5) If the cloudiness is water, why doesn't the water settle to the bottom the way it would after a wash? Why does it stay suspended? Does it eventually settle out to the bottom leaving clear bio-d on top? It might settle given time, but it's probably not water, it'll be soaps or unconverted glycerides (process didn't go far enough) or both. Either way, whether it settles or not, there'll still be traces left in your fuel, and you should wash it. If you got lots of frothing with the sample in the blender, let it settle for a week or two then give it a thorough bubble wash, then let it settle again. Maintaining the temperature during the process is important. Mixing times are averages - it depends on how big a batch you're doing, the shape of your processor, speed of mixer, shape of the mixing blade. If you're not getting near enough completion you could extend the mixing time or increase the agitation. More likely it's other factors at work, since your previous batch behaved differently and your technique would have been the same or similar. Hope this helps. Please let us know how you fare. Best Keith My batch before this one came out crystal clear and the car purrs with it. I don't want to run a cloudy mix in the car, should I wait to see if it settles-or heat it up again? Again how hot, how long Thanks in advance, Peter Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
[biofuels-biz] Re: A processor question...
All, I would be glad if anyone could help me. What is the porcentage of Ethanol and OHK that you are using to transesterificate? Do you use vegetal and solid fat too? What is the process diference? Do you do it in Batchs? How i the reaction temperature? How do you supply heat? Do you use to sell the gliceryn? How is the North American Market for Glicerin. tks, Marco --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill and all, Please excuse me if I offend anyone's sensibilities, but why would anyone pay $500 for a processor 1/3 the size of what they can create themselves for $50.00? Plus Heating Option: $100. There are bigger ones, 30, 40, 60, 80, 110 gallons ($850). Besides, having a reactor is one thing. What about the rest of the process? I kinda' doubt that these units take into consideration washing, waste water treatment, catalyst recover/neutralization, etc. All of that stuff is part of the process and should be included in the cost of a system. Sorry. There were no colorful pictures or spec sheets from which to gather a more informed opinion. If you go here: http://www.biodieselgear.com/equipment/index.htm ... and click on the [more info] buttons, there are pictures, but only of the small unit, and it's not very clear - it talks about a separate container for the meth but it's not pictured and it doesn't say if it's included. Washing is done in the processor using your favorite wash method. Anyway, I agree - do it yourself. There are quite a few good options for that here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html Simon Wells' processor is a basic unit, very simple. Aleks Kac has a nice design there, Ian's vacuum biodiesel processor and Chuck Ranum's batch processor are both excellent set-ups. Okay, not everyone's into building stuff and salvaging, they may not have a workshop or the tools or the know-how. In that case I'd suggest contacting Mike Pelly. His processor will be more expensive than these Biodieselgear ones, but it's had some enthusiastic reports already, from experienced biodieselers. By all accounts Mike's done a really good job. Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the other hand, if you want to wait a bit, not very long I think, there's a new design on the way for a basic 55-gallon drum processor you can easily assemble yourself, no welding, minimal tools, and all the parts, stirrers, motors, pumps, everything, will be sourced so you can simply order them. This processor is designed to be cheap, easy, effective and rugged, based on long experience of the designer. US-based. I'll announce that here and elsewhere when it's ready. Best Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: wmchellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:50 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] A processor question... Hi all, Has anyone here tried the Biodieselgear.com processors? If so, what can you tell me about them? Are they worth the money? Thanks, -Bill Chellis Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/Ey.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: A processor question...
All, I have some questuion inorder to compare my process with others. What is the porcentage of Ethanol and OHK that you are using to transesterificate? Do you do it in Batchs? How i the reaction temperature? How do you supply heat? Do you use to sell the gliceryn? How is the North American Market for Glicerin. tks, Marco --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bill and all, Please excuse me if I offend anyone's sensibilities, but why would anyone pay $500 for a processor 1/3 the size of what they can create themselves for $50.00? Plus Heating Option: $100. There are bigger ones, 30, 40, 60, 80, 110 gallons ($850). Besides, having a reactor is one thing. What about the rest of the process? I kinda' doubt that these units take into consideration washing, waste water treatment, catalyst recover/neutralization, etc. All of that stuff is part of the process and should be included in the cost of a system. Sorry. There were no colorful pictures or spec sheets from which to gather a more informed opinion. If you go here: http://www.biodieselgear.com/equipment/index.htm ... and click on the [more info] buttons, there are pictures, but only of the small unit, and it's not very clear - it talks about a separate container for the meth but it's not pictured and it doesn't say if it's included. Washing is done in the processor using your favorite wash method. Anyway, I agree - do it yourself. There are quite a few good options for that here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_processor.html Simon Wells' processor is a basic unit, very simple. Aleks Kac has a nice design there, Ian's vacuum biodiesel processor and Chuck Ranum's batch processor are both excellent set-ups. Okay, not everyone's into building stuff and salvaging, they may not have a workshop or the tools or the know-how. In that case I'd suggest contacting Mike Pelly. His processor will be more expensive than these Biodieselgear ones, but it's had some enthusiastic reports already, from experienced biodieselers. By all accounts Mike's done a really good job. Mike Pelly [EMAIL PROTECTED] On the other hand, if you want to wait a bit, not very long I think, there's a new design on the way for a basic 55-gallon drum processor you can easily assemble yourself, no welding, minimal tools, and all the parts, stirrers, motors, pumps, everything, will be sourced so you can simply order them. This processor is designed to be cheap, easy, effective and rugged, based on long experience of the designer. US-based. I'll announce that here and elsewhere when it's ready. Best Keith Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: wmchellis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, August 13, 2002 12:50 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] A processor question... Hi all, Has anyone here tried the Biodieselgear.com processors? If so, what can you tell me about them? Are they worth the money? Thanks, -Bill Chellis Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/RN.GAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Equipment Information
I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Equipment Information
I am knew in thsi list. I would like to produce sunflower oil and I don't know what kind of equipment i should use. Could you help me? And, do you usually burn it with glicerin or take it out? What about motor problems after 200 hours for waste acumulation inside motor? regards, Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Kwick Pick opens locked car doors, front doors, drawers, briefcases, padlocks, and more. On sale now! http://us.click.yahoo.com/ehaLqB/Fg5DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send quot;unsubscribequot; messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
