Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Keith Addison wrote: SNIP > Does anyone here know of any reason why, unlike all other diesels, > marine diesels can't use biodiesel? Marine tanks are likely to be in contact with the hull which may be quite cold (in salt water) but asside from that I can't think of anything other than the possible elastomer issue which is easily solved. Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Keith, I have received a curious attachment under your email. Maybe you should do some virus scan or someone just pretended as you. It is advised that we mainly use text and links to communicate here, not attachment! Damn worms :) Rgds Esmond ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Hello Sven Hi Keith, and thank you for a very in depth answer. You're welcome, I'm glad it's useful. First of all I believe the background is the fact that all fuel companies in Sweden (in the whole Scandinavia I think) decided to start mixing biofuel in all types fuel to get an "environmental response" immediately. That is, the diesel we buy always contains a part of biodiesel. It also mean that the coastal gas stations hardly can get fuel without bioproducts. Quite a lot of countries are doing what I think the French did first, adding 2-5% biodiesel to all diesel fuel, mainly for the improved lubrication, since there's so much less sulphur in the diesel fuel now. The four brands used in the article are Volvo Penta, Yanmar, Marine Power and Cummins Mercruiser. All of them clearly states that biodiesel is dangerous for a marine engine and they also say (again, all of them) that if any engine is operated on bioproducts the garantuees are cancelled. I don't think they have the legal power to do that. They can refuse to pay up on a particular guarantee if they can prove that the damage was directly caused by the bioproduct in the fuel, otherwise they have to pay. One weird thing is that all Cummins diesels are supposed to follow the Environmental Protection Agency's demands, and still they do not want the engines to be used with biofuel. Similar case with Yanmar. I'm going to call the magazine monday morning, and ask how they can totally rely upon the manufacturers without _any_ source criticism at all. It doesn't matter if I'm for or against biofuel, it's a well done example in pretty bad journalism. Pretty bad journalism on the one side, and industry spin on the other, the two go together. I will ask them to make a second research, and suggest them to call Ageratec here in Sweden or Finnish Neste and have a second opinion. Find some German sources too. I know people running high performance John Deere's on biofuel only, why would a marine engine be an exception? Not an exception, there isn't any technical basis for it. Given the time, I'm sure I can dig up a bunch of cases of marine diesels using biodiesel. Does anyone here know of any reason why, unlike all other diesels, marine diesels can't use biodiesel? This surely is industry spin. But why? What's being protected? Cummins says one thing in the US and the opposite thing in Sweden. Someone should ask them why. If your journos don't want to do it, maybe you could consider doing it yourself. People here might be able to give you some help on the American side. Yanmar says one thing in Sweden, but in Japan and internationally, Yanmar supports biodiesel use. I'll have to qualify that a bit. They show support for it, including sponsorship and so on, but I don't think that means they're committed to it. Think "corporate image adjustment" rather than a corporate eco-awakening or something. Yanmar doesn't know very much about biodiesel or biodiesel issues, like the rest of Japan, they're five years behind the rest of the world with biodiesel, or 10 years or 20, depending how you look at it (in spite of all the cutting-edge Japanese patents - that's all they are, patents). Eg, Yanmar doesn't know it, but their support extends to the use of some very poor-grade biodiesel. I know it's poor-grade stuff because I know quite a lot about that company and I tested some of their fuel. There's no quality control in Japan, and any awareness of quality issues here comes from JtF (not exaggerating). Nonetheless Yanmar supports biodiesel, as you can see here: http://www.yanmar.co.jp/english/bdf/ Huh. They keep changing their urls. That page used to have this url, a few weeks ago: www.yanmar.co.jp/en/index.html. The new suffix, bdf, definitely means biodiesel - biodiesel is always called BDF here, Bio-Diesel Fuel. Yet that page is not only about biodiesel, in fact it doesn't even mention biodiesel (five of the six items are about biodiesel though, if you click down one level). Anyway. I think Yanmar's main international business is marine diesels, more than their tractors and rotavators. Are they saying marine diesels are different to the other diesels they think should be using biodiesel fuel (with no concern for fuel quality, though they won't understand that point)? Does Nippon Denso (a partner in the Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers, FIEM) agree that the fuel injectors etc on Yanmar marine diesels should not be exposed to biodiesel, not even B2 or B5? Or at least not in Sweden? If you'd like to ask them that I could probably help, write to me offlist if you like. Volvo's ethically challenged response to perceived market threats from biodiesel has a notorious history. See: http://www.mail-archive.com/search?q=Olsson&[EMAIL PROTECTED] Olsson I don't know about Marine Power, but two out of the four companies are contradicting themselves and a third is not to be trusted at all. Do those three make up the majority of the market share i
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Hi Keith, and thank you for a very in depth answer. First of all I believe the background is the fact that all fuel companies in Sweden (in the whole Scandinavia I think) decided to start mixing biofuel in all types fuel to get an "environmental response" immediately. That is, the diesel we buy always contains a part of biodiesel. It also mean that the coastal gas stations hardly can get fuel without bioproducts. The four brands used in the article are Volvo Penta, Yanmar, Marine Power and Cummins Mercruiser. All of them clearly states that biodiesel is dangerous for a marine engine and they also say (again, all of them) that if any engine is operated on bioproducts the garantuees are cancelled. One weird thing is that all Cummins diesels are supposed to follow the Environmental Protection Agency's demands, and still they do not want the engines to be used with biofuel. I'm going to call the magazine monday morning, and ask how they can totally rely upon the manufacturers without _any_ source criticism at all. It doesn't matter if I'm for or against biofuel, it's a well done example in pretty bad journalism. I will ask them to make a second research, and suggest them to call Ageratec here in Sweden or Finnish Neste and have a second opinion. I know people running high performance John Deere's on biofuel only, why would a marine engine be an exception?.. Regards, Sven 2007/6/9, Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Hello Sven >With a lot of frustration I just read an article about using >biodiesel in marine engines. They (the engine manufacturers) Was that engine manufacturers in general, or did it name them? ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Hello Sven >With a lot of frustration I just read an article about using >biodiesel in marine engines. They (the engine manufacturers) Was that engine manufacturers in general, or did it name them? >claim that the diesel will get "old" an clogg the pipes and the >tank, like it would get sour - like milk! I don't want to take sides in this. It's always useful to check for a money trail, especially when it has anything to do with Big Business and the environment, but you can't just assume there always is one. Sure Detroit or whatever is kind of hard to distinguish from Big Oil or whatever, it's the same money that's in all their pockets, but that doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that marine diesel makers are discriminating against biodiesel to defend the petroleum interests. If they're talking about soy biodiesel they could be right. Soy is a semi-drying oil with an IV of 130 (EN 14214 specifies <120), it oxidises easily, forms corrosive peroxides, and polymerises. Even the US NBB specifies a best-before date of six months IIRC, for B20, let alone B100. For another example, Mike Briggs of the University of New Hampshire Biodiesel group (the guy who wants to raise algae on 10,000 sq miles of Arizona desert so you can go on guzzling forever) said this about biodiesel: "The biggest issue comes down to three things - quality, quality, and quality. And usually, the quality issue comes down to the storage issue." -- Mike Briggs, BioDieselNow Forums, 10/21/2004, re "Concern over Bio polymerization". An American discussion, with all concerned in denial about soy and polymerisation, eg Kumar Plocher of biodiesel distributor Yokaya Biofuels agreed with Briggs, said polymerisation is a "non-issue" and it had been dismissed at the NBB conference as of little concern. Not a lot of these people can make fuel that passes the wash test, they mostly use Appleseed reactors that won't do the job along with super-gentle washing methods to avoid emulsions - and they say quality is all about storage. Meanwhile both bubble washing and mist washing help to oxygenate the fuel well beyond the EU 14214 Oxidation stability limit. That's not just with soy oil, sunflower oil is also a semi-drying oil, and bubble-washing and other poor techniques can help to oxidise medium-IV oils like rapeseed (canola) oil too. For whether polymerisation is a non-issue or not, see "Oxidation and polymerisation": http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash.html#oxid Anti-oxidant additives for biodiesel sell well in Europe, but AFAIK not in the US, which has a much greater need of them. >And on top of that the common lie about biodiesel (and ethanol) >being very bad for rubber items and the oil. > >What is this? Why are the manufacturers so afraid of biodiesel that >the keep on going telling true lies? Not as strange as some of the things people get told about biodiesel by the mechanics who fix their cars, for instance, judging from some of the enquiries we get. A lot of it is just the usual sort of prejudice against anything new. And why take a chance if you don't have to? And indeed you don't have to, though demand will change that eventually. In the US, GM for one also raised objections to biodiesel, and stated clearly it was because of the oxidation problem, which is especially a problem with soy. Last I saw GM were considering approval of B5. I don't think they were acting out of any concern for the profit margins of ExxonMobil. The Fuel Injection Equipment Manufacturers (FIEM - Delphi, Stanadyne, Denso, Bosch) do support biodiesel, but they're concerned about the quality, and they say why, specifying fuel problems and the damage each one can cause. See: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_FIEM.html FIEM report Why not read the whole section on fuel quality? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#qual1 Biodiesel quality In a word, there's a lot of bad fuel about. Biodiesel? Which particular biodiesel is that exactly? How was it made? If I was an engine manufacturer I'd want to know that before I endorsed anything. With commercial brews I'd insist on the EU standard, and I'd want more than a rubber stamp from the usual laboratory. With homebrew you're probably better off as far as quality's concerned, but you're on your own. Best Keith >Regards, >Sven ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
I’ll tell you what they are so afraid, biodiesel will take a big bite out of their crude oil profits and make crude oil an antiquity. Thank you, Marc Hoflin _ From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Svenne Larsson Sent: Friday, June 08, 2007 9:04 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Best before date With a lot of frustration I just read an article about using biodiesel in marine engines. They (the engine manufacturers) claim that the diesel will get "old" an clogg the pipes and the tank, like it would get sour - like milk! And on top of that the common lie about biodiesel (and ethanol) being very bad for rubber items and the oil. What is this? Why are the manufacturers so afraid of biodiesel that the keep on going telling true lies? Regards, Sven No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 6/7/2007 2:21 PM No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.472 / Virus Database: 269.8.11/838 - Release Date: 6/7/2007 2:21 PM ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Kirk McLoren wrote: > Big oil, large transportation companies. One big happy family. > I think there are organisms that eat hydrocarbons though. If I were going > to store for a long time I would look into compatible biocides. There are critters that like diesel fuel, and other such stuff like hydraulic fluids and such. > > Svenne Larsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With a lot of frustration I just read an article about using biodiesel in > marine engines. > They (the engine manufacturers) claim that the diesel will get "old" an clogg > the pipes and the tank, > like it would get sour - like milk! And on top of that the common lie about > biodiesel (and ethanol) being > very bad for rubber items and the oil. > > What is this? Why are the manufacturers so afraid of biodiesel that the > keep on going telling true lies? > > Regards, > Sven Seeing how marine diesels seem to burn anything, and I mean pretty much anything, I can't imagine why this would be an issue. It's much more difficult to deal with an automotive diesel than a marine diesel, where you get to everything and have a proper engine room. Maybe these newer high performance turbo diesels and new diesel outboards, but for old school marine, it doesn't make sense. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Best before date
Big oil, large transportation companies. One big happy family. I think there are organisms that eat hydrocarbons though. If I were going to store for a long time I would look into compatible biocides. Svenne Larsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: With a lot of frustration I just read an article about using biodiesel in marine engines. They (the engine manufacturers) claim that the diesel will get "old" an clogg the pipes and the tank, like it would get sour - like milk! And on top of that the common lie about biodiesel (and ethanol) being very bad for rubber items and the oil. What is this? Why are the manufacturers so afraid of biodiesel that the keep on going telling true lies? Regards, Sven ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ - Ready for the edge of your seat? Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV. ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Best before date
With a lot of frustration I just read an article about using biodiesel in marine engines. They (the engine manufacturers) claim that the diesel will get "old" an clogg the pipes and the tank, like it would get sour - like milk! And on top of that the common lie about biodiesel (and ethanol) being very bad for rubber items and the oil. What is this? Why are the manufacturers so afraid of biodiesel that the keep on going telling true lies? Regards, Sven ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
