Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
On Fri, Oct 16, 2009 at 8:06 PM, Ivan Menchero [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: BTW how come the electric vehicle do not have solar panels on their roof? prize? AC/DC problems? Ivan - It's mostly because of power density. An average car, with current solar panel efficiencies, and average electric car efficiencies for a 3000lb car, would get an extra two or three miles a day of extra range from the solar panels on the roof. A large van, maybe two miles a day extra range. It's alot more effective to put the solar panels on the roof of the garage, where you can have alot more area (and not worry about them adding weight to the car, though that's not really that much anyway) and then you can actually have a large enough solar array to provide 30 to 100 miles of range per day of sun -- grid tie the solar array, then charge the car at night from the grid (if the utility will allow that). Average car -- between 250 and 350 watt hours per mile (up to 500 to 800 watt hours per mile for larger vans/trucks). Average power density of a top of the line commercially available solar panel (Sunpower) is about 15 watts per square foot (in full sun -- flat mounted panels on a car roof will be less due to poor sun angle depending on latitude and time of year). If we have 15 square feet of roof area on the car covered, that's only about 200 watts, and assuming a conservative 4 equivalent full sun hours per day, that's 800 watt hours before losses. 80% efficiency of all the electronics round trip is decent, which leaves us with about 650 watts hours per day collected -- about two to three miles of range. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/attachments/20091017/19a87abe/attachment.html ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
It's the Chevy Volt in Opel skinning. Is the Volt for real? That's an on-going debate. Originally announced in 2006 to be on sale in Q32009. That's last month. Most recent announcement is for availability in mid-2011. I saw a Volt prototype a couple of weeks ago at PHEV09. (see my blog item at http://www.econogics.com/blog.htm#2009.10.01) It's not ready. Current specs (which I don't expect to survive) are 60 km on a charge, and gas engine kicks in to power the electric motor, but does NOT charge the batteries. Based on my experience and what others are doing, that configuration is bizarre. Also, don't count on GM to provide the quick charging stations in any quantity or to maintain them (based on past experience in California and Arizona). Also, the automakers are currently throwing a wrench into the home charging deal by starting a whole new debate on what an electric vehicle charging plug should look like. (Don't get me started - I'm already in the trenches on this one, though it turns out I may have dug in on the wrong battlefield.) I'm skeptical about the automakers in general in this field, and cynical about GM in particular. In my opinion, the Volt / Ampera is just GM's current attempt to kill the electric car - again. There current PR / whispering campaign has convinced the Ontario government to not provide any incentives to homebuilders and converters, or small manufacturers, or LSVs (NEVs) or hybrid-upgraders when the grants come into effect middle of next year. I'm currently writing curriculum material for a course on converting cars to electric power. One of the things I say in the introduction is that waiting for the automakers for the past 40 years has not been effective. If you really want an electric car, the only way to be sure you will have one is to make your own. Darryl McMahon (lecturer, Fundamentals of Electric Vehicles course, 1981, 1982, 2009 and EV owner since 1978) Ivan Menchero wrote: A bit of good news! maybe Opel! yes Opel form GM! I could not believe it but yes! (may be Detroit finally got their shit together) http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/ I thought, if it is for real, in Europe will do wonders, in USA so so, since the people in USA drive much longer distance a day, but hey! with half a quart a day you are done! Basically a like 150CV car, maximum speed 160 k/h (remember you have full torque from the get go), around 100km autonomy on batteries and then if you need more, the gas engine kicks in to charge again the batteries, plug it in at home for an overnight charge or a 30 minute quick charge. SOUNDS GREAT! is it really? anyone knows if it is really true? Ivan -- Darryl McMahon The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy (in trade paperback and eBook) http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/ Latest review of The Emperor's New Hydrogen Economy in Greenlife Magazine http://www.econogics.com/TENHE/tenheGLspring2009.htm ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
Darryl McMahon wrote: It's the Chevy Volt in Opel skinning. Is the Volt for real? That's an on-going debate. Originally announced in 2006 to be on sale in Q32009. That's last month. Most recent announcement is for availability in mid-2011. I saw a Volt prototype a couple of weeks ago at PHEV09. (see my blog item at http://www.econogics.com/blog.htm#2009.10.01) It's not ready. Current specs (which I don't expect to survive) are 60 km on a charge, and gas engine kicks in to power the electric motor, but does NOT charge the batteries. Based on my experience and what others are doing, that configuration is bizarre. Also, don't count on GM to provide the quick charging stations in any quantity or to maintain them (based on past experience in California and Arizona). Also, the automakers are currently throwing a wrench into the home charging deal by starting a whole new debate on what an electric vehicle charging plug should look like. (Don't get me started - I'm already in the trenches on this one, though it turns out I may have dug in on the wrong battlefield.) I'm skeptical about the automakers in general in this field, and cynical about GM in particular. In my opinion, the Volt / Ampera is just GM's current attempt to kill the electric car - again. There current PR / whispering campaign has convinced the Ontario government to not provide any incentives to homebuilders and converters, or small manufacturers, or LSVs (NEVs) or hybrid-upgraders when the grants come into effect middle of next year. I'm currently writing curriculum material for a course on converting cars to electric power. One of the things I say in the introduction is that waiting for the automakers for the past 40 years has not been effective. If you really want an electric car, the only way to be sure you will have one is to make your own. Darryl McMahon (lecturer, Fundamentals of Electric Vehicles course, 1981, 1982, 2009 and EV owner since 1978) Ivan Menchero wrote: A bit of good news! maybe Opel! yes Opel form GM! I could not believe it but yes! (may be Detroit finally got their shit together) http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/ I thought, if it is for real, in Europe will do wonders, in USA so so, since the people in USA drive much longer distance a day, but hey! with half a quart a day you are done! Basically a like 150CV car, maximum speed 160 k/h (remember you have full torque from the get go), around 100km autonomy on batteries and then if you need more, the gas engine kicks in to charge again the batteries, plug it in at home for an overnight charge or a 30 minute quick charge. SOUNDS GREAT! is it really? anyone knows if it is really true? Ivan Hi Darryl, now i am a little confused! Opel as far i know is in the process of being sold to Magna and an russian Partner! So if that deal is going true it coul well be that the criterias for the plug ins and so well be more for the european market! And than would this not give our want to be Priminister Linda a good image as savior of the world?! just an other angle of view Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
Fritz, I don't pretend to begin to understand the inner workings of GM. Perhaps you could talk to the other Fritz (Henderson) about that. My sense is that the North American automakers are very nervous about Magna arriving on the scene as a fully-integrated car-maker and competitor. Right now, I don't think any of GM, Ford or Chrysler could build their lines without the parts they source from Magna. Given that most of the current Saturn line is essentially re-badged Opel product, and that the Penske deal for Saturn is apparently dead and buried, it's not impossible that Magna could bring that line (currently Astra, Vue including its hybrid version, etc.) to the North American market under a Magna badge. If the deal for Opel does go to Magna, I fully expect that the Volt / Ampera will not be part of the deal - it gives Magna too strong a hand. They already have a lot of EV experience from the 1980s Conceptor G-Van onward. They apparently have a pure EV designed and ready to roll from Ford production lines; what happens to that if Magna is an automaker in their own right? As for Belinda for Prime Minister, it wouldn't bother me in the least. She travels in good company (e.g., Dr. Jeffrey Sachs for the Spread the Net / Malaria No More campaign). However, I don't think she'll be able to pull it off via any of the current mainstream federal political parties. Darryl Fritz wrote: Darryl McMahon wrote: It's the Chevy Volt in Opel skinning. Is the Volt for real? That's an on-going debate. Originally announced in 2006 to be on sale in Q32009. That's last month. Most recent announcement is for availability in mid-2011. I saw a Volt prototype a couple of weeks ago at PHEV09. (see my blog item at http://www.econogics.com/blog.htm#2009.10.01) It's not ready. Current specs (which I don't expect to survive) are 60 km on a charge, and gas engine kicks in to power the electric motor, but does NOT charge the batteries. Based on my experience and what others are doing, that configuration is bizarre. Also, don't count on GM to provide the quick charging stations in any quantity or to maintain them (based on past experience in California and Arizona). Also, the automakers are currently throwing a wrench into the home charging deal by starting a whole new debate on what an electric vehicle charging plug should look like. (Don't get me started - I'm already in the trenches on this one, though it turns out I may have dug in on the wrong battlefield.) I'm skeptical about the automakers in general in this field, and cynical about GM in particular. In my opinion, the Volt / Ampera is just GM's current attempt to kill the electric car - again. There current PR / whispering campaign has convinced the Ontario government to not provide any incentives to homebuilders and converters, or small manufacturers, or LSVs (NEVs) or hybrid-upgraders when the grants come into effect middle of next year. I'm currently writing curriculum material for a course on converting cars to electric power. One of the things I say in the introduction is that waiting for the automakers for the past 40 years has not been effective. If you really want an electric car, the only way to be sure you will have one is to make your own. Darryl McMahon (lecturer, Fundamentals of Electric Vehicles course, 1981, 1982, 2009 and EV owner since 1978) Ivan Menchero wrote: A bit of good news! maybe Opel! yes Opel form GM! I could not believe it but yes! (may be Detroit finally got their shit together) http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/ I thought, if it is for real, in Europe will do wonders, in USA so so, since the people in USA drive much longer distance a day, but hey! with half a quart a day you are done! Basically a like 150CV car, maximum speed 160 k/h (remember you have full torque from the get go), around 100km autonomy on batteries and then if you need more, the gas engine kicks in to charge again the batteries, plug it in at home for an overnight charge or a 30 minute quick charge. SOUNDS GREAT! is it really? anyone knows if it is really true? Ivan Hi Darryl, now i am a little confused! Opel as far i know is in the process of being sold to Magna and an russian Partner! So if that deal is going true it coul well be that the criterias for the plug ins and so well be more for the european market! And than would this not give our want to be Priminister Linda a good image as savior of the world?! just an other angle of view Fritz ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/sustainablelorgbiofuel Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (70,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
I hope it does! what would happened is that the rest of the manufacturers would have to get their shit together and produce similar cars FAST! The sales numbers for the Ampera are like nice, my wife said I will get one (and we do not even use the car at the moment!) 1.5 L NOT GALLONS every 100Km! My question remains is it just a prototype or next summer we will see this things around, I read an article in a motor magazine (El Mundo) that they said they were driving them around in Europe. BTW how come the electric vehicle do not have solar panels on their roof? prize? AC/DC problems? Ivan -- From: Darryl McMahon [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 17, 2009 9:56 AM To: sustainablelorgbiofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan] Fritz, I don't pretend to begin to understand the inner workings of GM. Perhaps you could talk to the other Fritz (Henderson) about that. My sense is that the North American automakers are very nervous about Magna arriving on the scene as a fully-integrated car-maker and competitor. Right now, I don't think any of GM, Ford or Chrysler could build their lines without the parts they source from Magna. Given that most of the current Saturn line is essentially re-badged Opel product, and that the Penske deal for Saturn is apparently dead and buried, it's not impossible that Magna could bring that line (currently Astra, Vue including its hybrid version, etc.) to the North American market under a Magna badge. If the deal for Opel does go to Magna, I fully expect that the Volt / Ampera will not be part of the deal - it gives Magna too strong a hand. They already have a lot of EV experience from the 1980s Conceptor G-Van onward. They apparently have a pure EV designed and ready to roll from Ford production lines; what happens to that if Magna is an automaker in their own right? As for Belinda for Prime Minister, it wouldn't bother me in the least. She travels in good company (e.g., Dr. Jeffrey Sachs for the Spread the Net / Malaria No More campaign). However, I don't think she'll be able to pull it off via any of the current mainstream federal political parties. Darryl Fritz wrote: Darryl McMahon wrote: It's the Chevy Volt in Opel skinning. Is the Volt for real? That's an on-going debate. Originally announced in 2006 to be on sale in Q32009. That's last month. Most recent announcement is for availability in mid-2011. I saw a Volt prototype a couple of weeks ago at PHEV09. (see my blog item at http://www.econogics.com/blog.htm#2009.10.01) It's not ready. Current specs (which I don't expect to survive) are 60 km on a charge, and gas engine kicks in to power the electric motor, but does NOT charge the batteries. Based on my experience and what others are doing, that configuration is bizarre. Also, don't count on GM to provide the quick charging stations in any quantity or to maintain them (based on past experience in California and Arizona). Also, the automakers are currently throwing a wrench into the home charging deal by starting a whole new debate on what an electric vehicle charging plug should look like. (Don't get me started - I'm already in the trenches on this one, though it turns out I may have dug in on the wrong battlefield.) I'm skeptical about the automakers in general in this field, and cynical about GM in particular. In my opinion, the Volt / Ampera is just GM's current attempt to kill the electric car - again. There current PR / whispering campaign has convinced the Ontario government to not provide any incentives to homebuilders and converters, or small manufacturers, or LSVs (NEVs) or hybrid-upgraders when the grants come into effect middle of next year. I'm currently writing curriculum material for a course on converting cars to electric power. One of the things I say in the introduction is that waiting for the automakers for the past 40 years has not been effective. If you really want an electric car, the only way to be sure you will have one is to make your own. Darryl McMahon (lecturer, Fundamentals of Electric Vehicles course, 1981, 1982, 2009 and EV owner since 1978) Ivan Menchero wrote: A bit of good news! maybe Opel! yes Opel form GM! I could not believe it but yes! (may be Detroit finally got their shit together) http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/ I thought, if it is for real, in Europe will do wonders, in USA so so, since the people in USA drive much longer distance a day, but hey! with half a quart a day you are done! Basically a like 150CV car, maximum speed 160 k/h (remember you have full torque from the get go), around 100km autonomy on batteries and then if you need more, the gas engine kicks in to charge again the batteries, plug it in at home for an overnight charge or a 30 minute quick charge
[Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
http://search.japantimes.co.jp/mail/nn20091014i1.html Wednesday, Oct. 14, 2009 FYI ELECTRIC VEHICLES Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy By HIROKO NAKATA Staff writer Competition has been heating up in the domestic market for electric vehicles and many automakers have been prioritizing the technology since Mitsubishi Motors Corp. launched an egg-shaped electric minivehicle in July. Domestic carmakers are planning to exhibit various electric concept cars at the Tokyo Motor Show that opens to the public Oct. 24. The models may give us a clue about what will become available to consumers in the near future. But are electric vehicles really the answer to global warming? Some critics even say that without any major technical breakthroughs, EVs will remain only a niche market. Following are questions and answers about EVs in Japan: What kinds of EVs can you buy in Japan? Two major models are available or will soon hit the market. One is the i-MiEV that MMC will start selling next April with a sticker price of ¥4.6 million, including tax. The automaker said that as of Sept. 10, it had already received 900 orders. The other model is the Plug-in-Stella, which Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. started to sell in July for ¥4.725 million, including tax. No major foreign automakers sell EVs in Japan, but some already sell them overseas and have announced they will start mass production in a few years. They include Daimler AG, which has said it will start mass production of EVs for sale in 2012. More models are in the pipeline. Nissan Motor Co. said Aug. 2 its new EV, the Leaf, will go on sale in Japan, the United States and Europe next year, but it has not revealed the price tag. Toyota has said it will launch an EV by 2012 in the United States but has not released any details, and it has also not said whether it will go on sale in Japan. At least eight makers sell EVs in small quantities, including the Girasole by Japan-Italian venture Auto EV Japan Co. and the Reva by Indian-U.S. venture Reva Electric Car Co., according to the quasi-governmental Next Generation Vehicle Promotion Center in Tokyo. EVs require far fewer components than gasoline-fueled cars. This makes it easier to assemble them and allows a number of small companies to join in their production. This is also why some big carmakers, which have delayed getting involved in the costly development of other so-called green cars such as gasoline-electric hybrids and fuel-cell vehicles, are focusing on the development of EVs. Do EVs have corporate users here, as in Europe? Electric power firms, including Tokyo Electric Power Co., convenience store chain Lawson Inc. and Japan Post Group use dozens of EVs to visit customers and outlets. Delivery service operators drive open-style electric minicars created by small venture firms. Mitsubishi Motors started leasing i-MiEVs on July 23 for corporate users, and it has reserved as many as 1,400 units. Fuji Heavy has delivered 40 to 50 to corporate customers, it said. Who created the first electric car in Japan? Three firms - a machinery maker named Nakajima Seisakusho, a forerunner of Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. and one of the forerunners of battery maker GS Yuasa Corp. - created the first electric bus in 1930, according to GS Yuasa's corporate history. However, the first EV in the world had been developed in Britain some 57 years earlier. Nakajima and the GS Yuasa forerunner built Japan's first electric car in 1937, the vehicle promotion center said. The number of EVs on Japanese roads briefly reached 3,299 amid the lack of gasoline after World War II. Later, however, development of gasoline-powered engines and the growing number of gas stations left EVs by the wayside, the vehicle promotion center said. Will everyone rush to drive EVs as soon as they roll off assembly lines? Critics say it will be a while before EVs really take off because of two major hurdles - their short range and a lack of infrastructure. For example, the i-MiEV runs for about 120 km at a speed of 40 to 60 kph if the air conditioning is not used. Nissan's Leaf can go a bit farther. That means EV drivers in Tokyo can only go as far as neighboring prefectures on a single charge. Longer trips are not currently possible without recharging the battery at some point along the way. There are at present a limited number of high-speed electric chargers across the nation, mainly in Tokyo and Kanagawa Prefecture. As of June, there were only 60 high-speed charging stations in the country, and about half of those are owned by electric power firms and are not available to general users. Some may also be reluctant to buy EVs because of the high prices. The i-MiEV, which sells for ¥4.6 million, is far more expensive than regular compacts that can be bought for around ¥1 million. Among gasoline-electric hybrids, Toyota's new Prius sells for ¥2.05
Re: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan]
A bit of good news! maybe Opel! yes Opel form GM! I could not believe it but yes! (may be Detroit finally got their shit together) http://www.opel-ampera.com/english/ I thought, if it is for real, in Europe will do wonders, in USA so so, since the people in USA drive much longer distance a day, but hey! with half a quart a day you are done! Basically a like 150CV car, maximum speed 160 k/h (remember you have full torque from the get go), around 100km autonomy on batteries and then if you need more, the gas engine kicks in to charge again the batteries, plug it in at home for an overnight charge or a 30 minute quick charge. SOUNDS GREAT! is it really? anyone knows if it is really true? Ivan -- From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 16, 2009 4:59 AM To: biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: [Biofuel] Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy [Japan] http://search.japantimes.co.jp/mail/nn20091014i1.html Wednesday, Oct. 14, 2009 FYI ELECTRIC VEHICLES Electric vehicles, touted as next big thing, still in their infancy By HIROKO NAKATA Staff writer Competition has been heating up in the domestic market for electric vehicles and many automakers have been prioritizing the technology since Mitsubishi Motors Corp. launched an egg-shaped electric minivehicle in July. Domestic carmakers are planning to exhibit various electric concept cars at the Tokyo Motor Show that opens to the public Oct. 24. The models may give us a clue about what will become available to consumers in the near future. But are electric vehicles really the answer to global warming? Some critics even say that without any major technical breakthroughs, EVs will remain only a niche market. Following are questions and answers about EVs in Japan: What kinds of EVs can you buy in Japan? Two major models are available or will soon hit the market. One is the i-MiEV that MMC will start selling next April with a sticker price of ¥4.6 million, including tax. The automaker said that as of Sept. 10, it had already received 900 orders. The other model is the Plug-in-Stella, which Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd. started to sell in July for ¥4.725 million, including tax. No major foreign automakers sell EVs in Japan, but some already sell them overseas and have announced they will start mass production in a few years. They include Daimler AG, which has said it will start mass production of EVs for sale in 2012. More models are in the pipeline. Nissan Motor Co. said Aug. 2 its new EV, the Leaf, will go on sale in Japan, the United States and Europe next year, but it has not revealed the price tag. Toyota has said it will launch an EV by 2012 in the United States but has not released any details, and it has also not said whether it will go on sale in Japan. At least eight makers sell EVs in small quantities, including the Girasole by Japan-Italian venture Auto EV Japan Co. and the Reva by Indian-U.S. venture Reva Electric Car Co., according to the quasi-governmental Next Generation Vehicle Promotion Center in Tokyo. EVs require far fewer components than gasoline-fueled cars. This makes it easier to assemble them and allows a number of small companies to join in their production. This is also why some big carmakers, which have delayed getting involved in the costly development of other so-called green cars such as gasoline-electric hybrids and fuel-cell vehicles, are focusing on the development of EVs. Do EVs have corporate users here, as in Europe? Electric power firms, including Tokyo Electric Power Co., convenience store chain Lawson Inc. and Japan Post Group use dozens of EVs to visit customers and outlets. Delivery service operators drive open-style electric minicars created by small venture firms. Mitsubishi Motors started leasing i-MiEVs on July 23 for corporate users, and it has reserved as many as 1,400 units. Fuji Heavy has delivered 40 to 50 to corporate customers, it said. Who created the first electric car in Japan? Three firms - a machinery maker named Nakajima Seisakusho, a forerunner of Kawasaki Heavy Industries Ltd. and one of the forerunners of battery maker GS Yuasa Corp. - created the first electric bus in 1930, according to GS Yuasa's corporate history. However, the first EV in the world had been developed in Britain some 57 years earlier. Nakajima and the GS Yuasa forerunner built Japan's first electric car in 1937, the vehicle promotion center said. The number of EVs on Japanese roads briefly reached 3,299 amid the lack of gasoline after World War II. Later, however, development of gasoline-powered engines and the growing number of gas stations left EVs by the wayside, the vehicle promotion center said. Will everyone rush to drive EVs as soon as they roll off assembly lines? Critics say it will be a while before EVs really take off
