Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff
Joe, I don't quite understand it either, but apparently the higher frequency helps the colloidal emulsion break up and separate better (it may be affecting the Zeta potential of surface charges on colloidal particles that tend to keep emulsions stable) while the lower frequency keeps it mechanically mixed. It sounds like its partly a physics topic, not just physical chemistry. Mike McGinness Joe Street wrote: I guess you didn't read the abstract which says that settling time IS also reduced with ultrasonics (although I don't understand the mechanism or how that works). Joe Tonomár András wrote: Joe, In my well isolated reactor the tempreture stays above 55 deg for 3 hours. so the amount of enregy needed goes in with the initial heating and this is independent from how long I process my fuel. In fact I use mechanical stirrer wich means there is no heat loss in the tubes outside tubes, and the mechanical energy remains in the reactor also as heat. Other thing is that the reaction time is 10 or 60 or 120 minutes doesn't matter. the reason is that you have to settle for 12 - 24 hours anyway. in my point of view speeding up the settling would be something much more logical direction to go. Another reason for this is that the 2 stage mathods require a re-heating, which could be avoided if separation was compete in 1 hour vs. 24 hours Keep going Andrew - Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff Hey Greg ; If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used. If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10 minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another 58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with just 50Wh of energy. Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went into producing those as well. All told it is a significant savings! Joe greg Kelly wrote: snip The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing? respectfully, Greg Kelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff
I guess you didn't read the abstract which says that settling time IS also reduced with ultrasonics (although I don't understand the mechanism or how that works). Joe Tonomár András wrote: Joe, In my well isolated reactor the tempreture stays above 55 deg for 3 hours. so the amount of enregy needed goes in with the initial heating and this is independent from how long I process my fuel. In fact I use mechanical stirrer wich means there is no heat loss in the tubes outside tubes, and the mechanical energy remains in the reactor also as heat. Other thing is that the reaction time is 10 or 60 or 120 minutes doesn't matter. the reason is that you have to settle for 12 - 24 hours anyway. in my point of view speeding up the settling would be something much more logical direction to go. Another reason for this is that the 2 stage mathods require a re-heating, which could be avoided if separation was compete in 1 hour vs. 24 hours Keep going Andrew - Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff Hey Greg ; If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used. If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10 minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another 58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with just 50Wh of energy. Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went into producing those as well. All told it is a significant savings! Joe greg Kelly wrote: snip The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing? respectfully, Greg Kelly ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff
Joe, In my well isolated reactor the tempreture stays above 55 deg for 3 hours. so the amount of enregy needed goes in with the initial heating and this is independent from how long I process my fuel. In fact I use mechanical stirrer wich means there is no heat loss in the tubes outside tubes, and the mechanical energy remains in the reactor also as heat. Other thing is that the reaction time is 10 or 60 or 120 minutes doesn't matter. the reason is that you have to settle for 12 - 24 hours anyway. in my point of view speeding up the settling would be something much more logical direction to go. Another reason for this is that the 2 stage mathods require a re-heating, which could be avoided if separation was compete in 1 hour vs. 24 hours Keep going Andrew - Original Message - From: "Joe Street" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, March 31, 2006 3:49 PM Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff > Hey Greg ; > > If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt > unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says > to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used. > If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10 > minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another > 58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation > will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with > just 50Wh of energy. Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst > and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went > into producing those as well. All told it is a significant savings! > > Joe > > greg Kelly wrote: > > snip > > > > > The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound > > seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how > > much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant > > will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to > > keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here > > long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on > > the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing? > > respectfully, > > Greg Kelly > > > > > > > > > ___ > Biofuel mailing list > Biofuel@sustainablelists.org > http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): > http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff
Hey Greg ; If I run my reactor (which has a 1500 watt element but is a 220 volt unit running on 110v) I am consuming 350 watts and current wisdom says to allow 1 hr or more for the reaction so that's 350 Wh of energy used. If I use a 300 watt US generator and the reaction completes in 10 minutes that's only 50 Wh of energy used. for the u-sonics and another 58 Wh for heating during that 10 minutes, but in fact the insulation will keep the mixture hot for that amount of time so I can get away with just 50Wh of energy. Plus if the abstract is right I use less catalyst and less excess methanol and you have to consider the energy that went into producing those as well. All told it is a significant savings! Joe greg Kelly wrote: snip > > The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound > seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how > much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant > will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to > keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here > long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on > the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing? > respectfully, > Greg Kelly > > > ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff
Hello Greg >I am very interested in finding a use for the glycerine made by the reaction. Have you looked at this? http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_glycerin.html Glycerine >I don't need that much soap and the local companies I have called >have not been interested. The idea of using ammonia to make >potassium and ammonium phosphate. Yes, nice. Those are just ordinary chemical "fertilisers", I wouldn't put them in the soil, but I'd put them in the compost, as Tom said, if they're mostly derived onsite as a by-product of a sustainable process, which this is, mostly. >I am having a time getting a handle on the searches in the archives, It's just a simple search, but you can use Boolean searches to an extent, eg, put a phrase in double quotes. The limitation is that it only gives you the first hundred hits, so if your search term is too general you'll only get to see the tip of the iceberg. But that will give you further search terms you can use to narrow it down. Searching is a bit of an art, but it's well worth learning, generally, not just for the list archives. >but I'll keeo trying. The long and short of it is that many people >in my area simply flush the glycerine and I don't want to consider >that. Actually it's not as bad as it sounds. "Some home-brewers have pointed out that wastewater treatment systems should be able to handle the glycerin by-product without problems. It mixes with water, it's biodegradable, and if you reclaim the excess methanol first, it's non-toxic. As for the lye and the soap, lye is a drain-cleaner after all, and wastewater plants are no strangers to soap. Even the methanol might be an advantage, some of the digester bacteria like it. But it's best not to pour by-product down the drain or the toilet without checking with your local authority first." Ken Provost said this about it: "The "junk" as you call it, is composed primarily of three things -- leftover(ie, excess) methanol or ethanol, glycerol, soap, water, and alkali (NaOH or KOH). Methanol, ethanol, glycerol, and soap are all entirely biodegradable over a very short timespan. The alkali can be sewered in urban areas to the same extent as any drain cleaner. If that is bothersome to you, it can easily be neutralized to NaCl or KCl using hydro- chloric acid. I personally have no qualms with any of that, and I consider myself fairly "anal" about what I put down the drain." I just think it's a waste, but if you have no other options that's the last one. >So, any processes that people have used in the past as suggestions >would be interesting to me. > >The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound >seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how >much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant >will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to >keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here >long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on >the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing? >respectfully, >Greg Kelly Well, I agree with you. Someone emailed me maybe six months or a year ago suggesting ultrasonics would speed up the process, but I didn't take much notice, on the basis of K.I.S.S. Why get into stuff you can't source locally and probably can't maintain or repair yourself, when it works pretty well without it anyway? I had rather the same attitude to it as to centrifuges, only worse, since a local shop probably can make a centrifuge, depending on the shop, but I don't think centrifuges work very well anyway, apart from being excessive. Anyway though we have to do Appropriate Technology not everyone's in the same position, so I don't think using ultrasonics is out place, if it works. Which Joe looks like finding out, strength to his elbow. Best Keith ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
[Biofuel] Glycerine use and other fancy stuff
I am very interested in finding a use for the glycerine made by the reaction. I don't need that much soap and the local companies I have called have not been interested. The idea of using ammonia to make potassium and ammonium phosphate. I am having a time getting a handle on the searches in the archives, but I'll keeo trying. The long and short of it is that many people in my area simply flush the glycerine and I don't want to consider that. So, any processes that people have used in the past as suggestions would be interesting to me. The discussion of speeding up the acid/base process with ultrasound seems a little out there. If the idea is to use renewable fuels, how much electrical energy from the natural gas fired generating plant will be used to speed up an equlibrium process? I think too much to keep with the ideals. I don't mean to be critical. I ain't been here long enough for that. And the people here have such a strong hold on the concepts, I am just wondering if/what I am missing? respectfully, Greg Kelly___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
