Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Mike Weaver]

Hoo pig, Soooeee!

My family hails from NW Arkansas.

bob allen wrote:

>I live in Arkansas,US of A, so it is the third world, except we have a 
>"nucular" reactor.
>
>Tom Irwin wrote:> Hi Bob,>  > You mean people heating their water with 
>electricity aren't using flow > limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear 
>this. You must be talking > about people who live in the third world not the 
>first. Whew, I was > really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, 
>most people > living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity 
>to heat > their hot water. What's going on here.>  > Tom Irwin>  > > 
>> 
>*From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> *To:* 
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> *Sent:* Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300> 
>*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar> 
>collectors> > Although my observations will offset in terms of net 
>effects, a fifteen> minute shower is a really really long shower in my 
>experience. A few> years ago I had students go out and calculate energy 
>use for showers.> average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, 
>and flow rate> varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high 
>end about 5> gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and 
>single> family homes.> > > > > > Tom Irwin wrote:>  > Hi Mike,>
>  >>  > Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15>  
>> minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C.> Let's 
>say>  > room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x 
>Temperature>  > change x specific heat.>  > hm less than 
>6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I> wouldn't>  > waste may 
>time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider> leaving>  > the 
>water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the> waste>  
>> heat and again when you scrub the tub.>  >>  > Tom Irwin>  >>    
>  >>  >> 
>>  
>> *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 
>]>  > *To:* 
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> 
>>  > *Sent:* Thu, 
>13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300>  > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat 
>recovery and low tech Solar>  > collectors>  >>  > With all 
>due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word>  > "ridiculous" in 
>threads like this, I usually think of the people who>  > actually believe 
>that the buck stops with them, every possible>  > scenario has been 
>explored and all possible conclusions made as to>  > the potential of an 
>idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it).>  > It is presumptuous and 
>discounts contributions made by people like>  > John who present and 
>argument and back it up with something other>  > than conjecture.>  >> 
> > Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I>   
>   > think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat>  
>> the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the>  > 
>difference in temperature.>  >>  > "...bacteria that will definitely 
>grow and clog heat exchange> tubing.">  >>  > Fouling is a 
>foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications>  > and If 
>clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most>  > people 
>would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.>  >>  > 
>"...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C">  >>  > 
>Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One>  > 
>thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that>  > inefficiency 
>in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all,>  > you are trying 
>to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an>  > article from 
>www.motherearthnews.com>  > which talks about applying it to>  > solar 
>and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to>  > recover 
>heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat>

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[bob allen]

I live in Arkansas,US of A, so it is the third world, except we have a 
"nucular" reactor.


Tom Irwin wrote:
> Hi Bob,
>  
> You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow 
> limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking 
> about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was 
> really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people 
> living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat 
> their hot water. What's going on here.
>  
> Tom Irwin
>  
> 
> 
> *From:* bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>     *Sent:* Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
> 
> Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen
> minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few
> years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers.
> average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate
> varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5
> gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single
> family homes.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Tom Irwin wrote:
>  > Hi Mike,
>  >
>  > Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15
>  > minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C.
> Let's say
>  > room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature
>  > change x specific heat.
>  > hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I
> wouldn't
>  > waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider
> leaving
>  > the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the
> waste
>  > heat and again when you scrub the tub.
>  >
>  > Tom Irwin
>  >
>  >
>  >
> ----------------------------
>  > *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ]
>  > *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
>  > *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
>  > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
>  > collectors
>  >
>  > With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word
>  > "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who
>  > actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible
>  > scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to
>  > the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it).
>  > It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like
>  > John who present and argument and back it up with something other
>  > than conjecture.
>  >
>  > Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I
>  > think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat
>  > the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the
>  > difference in temperature.
>  >
>  > "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange
> tubing."
>  >
>  > Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications
>  > and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most
>  > people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.
>  >
>  > "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
>  >
>  > Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One
>  > thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that
>  > inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all,
>  > you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an
>  > article from www.motherearthnews.com
>  > which talks about applying it to
>  > solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to
>  > recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat
>  > recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.
>  >
>  > "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat
>  > sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is
>  > equall

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[JJJN]

Hi John,
Thanks for the info, I have been out of town all week so I am late in my 
reply,  I will read all the great feed back here and get something 
going.  I never realized what a resource hog I was till I started 
reading all the info here.

Thanks again,

Jim

John Hall wrote:

>Jim,
>There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there.  They
>recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking
>showers.  According to the DOE studies conducted.  Check
>http://www.gfxtechnology.com/
>There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same
>price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these.  
>
>I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most
>homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water.  This should cut
>that about in half.
>
>Regards;
>John
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
>Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
>collectors
>
>Hi folks,
>
>I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I 
>found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and 
>wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:
>
>1) Solar collectors
>
>2) Grey water heat going down the drain
>
>Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?
>
>Thanks in advance
>
>Jim
>
>Wisdom to all
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
>messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>  
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Kurt Nolte]

On 10/14/05, Mike Weaver <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I agree.  Only on weeks where I do real work - splitting wood or such doI take a shower daily.  Mostly every other day is fine.  This is notalways true in the Summer, though.  I am on the East Coast.

Northeast or Southeast? Or even worse, Deep South? 

They're something of a requirement here in the Southeast. Humidity up
around 70-80 percent all year 'round, with summertime heat indexes
spiking up over 115-120F. 

Plus I bike to work each morning, a good 15-16 miles, and home again in
the afternoon (In the middle of that heat, ugh!), so during the summer
I will instead often do two shorter "semi-showers"; the one in the
morning is more to rinse out the hair and get it manageable, with a
more "normal" shower after I've biked in that heat. 

I guess though that I'm weird, cold showers are my preference.
Certainly less taxing on our NG water heater, though. And cool showers
are pretty effective at cleaning if you've been sweating heavily
recently, I've found. Very relaxing too. 

Just another data point. 
-Kurt
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Hakan Falk]

Mike,

Ugly is your addition and I love Americans, the only thing
that I do not like is their foreign policies, energy policies.
and the political/economy corruption by the US corporations.

By the way, I also like the French. My daughter in law and
grandchildren are French.

Hakan

At 23:21 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>!! What about us ugly Americans?
>
>Hakan Falk wrote:
>>
>>I really like this list and its members, including the French
>>and Canadian French. LOL
>>
>>It is fun with the sparks and the humor.
>>
>>Hakan
>>
>>At 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not.
>>>(in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day)
>>>
>>>PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be
>>>recycled four times (inside out, back and front)
>>>this is of course common sense to Canadians but
>>>I am sensitive to the international nature of this list.
>>>
>>>Joe
>>>
>>>Frantz DESPREZ wrote:
>>>

Mike Weaver a écrit :



>
>M. Falk:
>
>As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at
>your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.
>I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor.  Shampoo at
>fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared
>the winner.
>I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl.  If the first
>duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.
>
>Prepare to meet your suds.
>
>M. Weaver
>
>
>

M. Weaver,

I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians
are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.
They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before
roll you in snow or dive in icy water.
None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian
treatment.
And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms.

M. Desprez
( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of
mine)

>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>___
>>Biofuel mailing list
>>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>>
>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>>
>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>>
>>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Michael Redler]

Is there a way to turn excess glycerin into perfume?
 
That might save some energy too!
 
MikeHakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I really like this list and its members, including the Frenchand Canadian French. LOLIt is fun with the sparks and the humor.HakanAt 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote:>I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not.>(in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day)>>PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be >recycled four times (inside out, back and front) >this is of course common sense to Canadians but >I am sensitive to the international nature of this list.>>Joe>>Frantz DESPREZ wrote:Mike Weaver a écrit :>>M. Falk:>>As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at>>>your suggestion that the
 French do not bathe regularly.>>>I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor. Shampoo at>>>fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared>>>the winner.>>>I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl. If the first>>>duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.>>Prepare to meet your suds.>>M. Weaver>>M. Weaver,I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians>>are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.>>They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before>>roll you in snow or dive in icy water.>>None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian>>treatment.>>And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in
 bad t(h)erms.M. Desprez>>( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of>>mine)___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Mike Weaver]

!! What about us ugly Americans?

Hakan Falk wrote:

  I really like this list and its members, including the French
and Canadian French. LOL

It is fun with the sparks and the humor.

Hakan

At 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote:
  
  
I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not.
(in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day)

PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be 
recycled four times (inside out, back and front) 
this is of course common sense to Canadians but 
I am sensitive to the international nature of this list.

Joe

Frantz DESPREZ wrote:


  Mike Weaver a écrit :


  
  
M. Falk:

As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at
your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.
I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor.  Shampoo at
fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared
the winner.
I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl.  If the first
duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.

Prepare to meet your suds.

M. Weaver



  
  M. Weaver,

I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians
are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.
They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before
roll you in snow or dive in icy water.
None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian
treatment.
And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms.

M. Desprez
( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of
mine)
  

  
  






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Hakan Falk]

I really like this list and its members, including the French
and Canadian French. LOL

It is fun with the sparks and the humor.

Hakan

At 20:52 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not.
>(in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every day)
>
>PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be 
>recycled four times (inside out, back and front) 
>this is of course common sense to Canadians but 
>I am sensitive to the international nature of this list.
>
>Joe
>
>Frantz DESPREZ wrote:
>>
>>Mike Weaver a écrit :
>>
>>
>>>
>>>M. Falk:
>>>
>>>As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at
>>>your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.
>>>I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor.  Shampoo at
>>>fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared
>>>the winner.
>>>I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl.  If the first
>>>duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.
>>>
>>>Prepare to meet your suds.
>>>
>>>M. Weaver
>>>
>>>
>>
>>M. Weaver,
>>
>>I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians
>>are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.
>>They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before
>>roll you in snow or dive in icy water.
>>None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian
>>treatment.
>>And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms.
>>
>>M. Desprez
>>( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of
>>mine)







___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Joe Street]

I generally take a shower once a month whether I need it or not. 
(in the summer of course, in the winter we can take snow baths every
day)

PS for all you foreigners. underwear can be recycled four times
(inside out, back and front) this is of course common sense to
Canadians but I am sensitive to the international nature of this list.

Joe

Frantz DESPREZ wrote:

  Mike Weaver a écrit :

  
  
M. Falk:

As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at 
your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.
I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor.  Shampoo at 
fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared 
the winner.
I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl.  If the first 
duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.

Prepare to meet your suds.

M. Weaver


  
  M. Weaver,

I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians 
are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.
They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before 
roll you in snow or dive in icy water.
None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian 
treatment.
And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms.

M. Desprez
( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of 
mine)


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


  



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Mike Weaver]

>From my (fairly limited) time in France the big difference I noticed
was the French use far less water.  In one hotel there was a small tub
and bathing 
spray, in another a small shower with an instant heater.  I probably
used 1/4 the water that I would here, where most people keep a 60
gallon tank at 125 F degree
hot all day and all night.  Efficiency was the norm most of the places
I went in Europe.  When European friends come to stay they do marvel at
the hot water - I had (a number of years ago) a young lady friend who
spent a good 30 minutes in the shower every morning with the water on
HOT.   She always emerged pink and dreamy.  I always suspected her
attraction was not so much for me, but for my water boiler.  

Of course now I am plotting how to rid myself of the boiler and go
solar.  



Frantz DESPREZ wrote:

  Hakan Falk a écrit :

  
  
Tom,

Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this
because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the
French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower
once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according
to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the
real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on
the market.

I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using
more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week.
A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water
also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to
a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil.

Hakan


  
  Hakan,

I feel concerned as a french. I must try to find out explanations to 
save the honor of my team ;-)
During the 50's, french were considered as dirty people because of their 
very low consuption of soaps and toothbrushes, and a very low rate of 
modern bathroom equipment. And obviously, it's true that a very short 
part of appartments and houses were equiped with WC or showers. That 
even doesn't mean that people were dirty : my grand parents told me how 
they used to wash with [the famous french] wet gloves and basins twice a 
day. Ask 1/3 world people how heavy is water when you have to carry it 
for km or bring it at the 5th floor. An active policy of public aids for 
years helped France to stick at the european average. Now we can waste 
good water like our developped friends.
During the 90's, new statistics showed that the average french used more 
soap than the average brittish. Proudness.
But I also read that the statistics were based on different parameters. 
A panel of few citizens or samples in a hand , and the total amount of 
soap or water sold divided but population in the other. And in rural 
areas of France, we often have wells. Water is free and not counted. 
Only people who uses "l'eau de la ville" (= city water, the drinkable 
water with good bleach taste...) pay the pollution tax (included in the 
water bill). And water is not only used in the bathroom.
I supposed that depends on national habits. For teeth washing, and know 
only very few people with their natural teeth. They probably didn't care 
as we do when they were young, and when get a plastic smile, they kept 
on to not use much water and toothbrushes... The delicious garlic 
fragrance of old french breathes may be not came of the vegetable ?

About perfumes, the french fame came from king Louis XIV, who had very 
smart water pieces in his gardens of Versailles palace, but any bathroom 
or toilets in buildings. Courtisans were supposed to do their needs in 
pots or on the floor behind curtains. So what we call the "Louis XIV 
method" is to use cosmetics and perfumes to hide the odors from lack of 
bodycare. And I guess that the perfumes had to be efficient :-|)

More seriously, Swedes have a great luck to have big water ressources. 
In some parts of France, southern Europe and elsewhere worldwide, 
droughtness is severe. Spain or Brasil plans to do as California to 
change river ways. Water is one of the main real reasons of the war 
between palestinians and Israelians.
At home, one of my 2 wells is dry since July and our pond is completly 
dry for the first time in 52 years. Newspaper are speaking of less than 
one month of drinkable water stocks in central western France. We can 
survive without oil, not without water.

Frantz
(one shower a day)

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

  






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytofore

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Mike Weaver]

I agree.  Only on weeks where I do real work - splitting wood or such do 
I take a shower daily.  Mostly every other day is fine.  This is not 
always true in the Summer, though.  I am on the East Coast. 

Zeke Yewdall wrote:

>Hmmm.  Interesting direction this thread is taking...
>
>While we are talking about showers, why exactly is it assumed in the
>US that everyone must take a shower every day.   When in a dry
>climate, not doing much physical work (like going to the office every
>day) I get by with every other day fine.   If you are on the east
>coast of the US, yes, you probably need to take a shower every day
>because the humidity is so dreadful, but out here in Colorado, why? 
>It just makes your skin dry and is probably less healthy.  No one that
>I work or live with has ever complained.
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>  
>



___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Frantz DESPREZ]

Mike Weaver a écrit :

> M. Falk:
>
> As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at 
> your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.
> I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor.  Shampoo at 
> fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared 
> the winner.
> I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl.  If the first 
> duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.
>
> Prepare to meet your suds.
>
> M. Weaver
>
M. Weaver,

I am very grateful of your sollicitude, but be careful, scandinavians 
are famous for their weapons of mass desinfection.
They could invite you into a steam bath until you've been cooked, before 
roll you in snow or dive in icy water.
None a civilized gentleman as you surely are can resist such a barbarian 
treatment.
And since Volvo refused to married Renault, we are in bad t(h)erms.

M. Desprez
( with half of my ancestry from Normandy, so Hakan is maybe a cousin of 
mine)


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Zeke Yewdall]

Hmmm.  Interesting direction this thread is taking...

While we are talking about showers, why exactly is it assumed in the
US that everyone must take a shower every day.   When in a dry
climate, not doing much physical work (like going to the office every
day) I get by with every other day fine.   If you are on the east
coast of the US, yes, you probably need to take a shower every day
because the humidity is so dreadful, but out here in Colorado, why? 
It just makes your skin dry and is probably less healthy.  No one that
I work or live with has ever complained.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Frantz DESPREZ]

Hakan Falk a écrit :

>Tom,
>
>Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this
>because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the
>French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower
>once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according
>to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the
>real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on
>the market.
>
>I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using
>more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week.
>A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water
>also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to
>a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil.
>
>Hakan
>
Hakan,

I feel concerned as a french. I must try to find out explanations to 
save the honor of my team ;-)
During the 50's, french were considered as dirty people because of their 
very low consuption of soaps and toothbrushes, and a very low rate of 
modern bathroom equipment. And obviously, it's true that a very short 
part of appartments and houses were equiped with WC or showers. That 
even doesn't mean that people were dirty : my grand parents told me how 
they used to wash with [the famous french] wet gloves and basins twice a 
day. Ask 1/3 world people how heavy is water when you have to carry it 
for km or bring it at the 5th floor. An active policy of public aids for 
years helped France to stick at the european average. Now we can waste 
good water like our developped friends.
During the 90's, new statistics showed that the average french used more 
soap than the average brittish. Proudness.
But I also read that the statistics were based on different parameters. 
A panel of few citizens or samples in a hand , and the total amount of 
soap or water sold divided but population in the other. And in rural 
areas of France, we often have wells. Water is free and not counted. 
Only people who uses "l'eau de la ville" (= city water, the drinkable 
water with good bleach taste...) pay the pollution tax (included in the 
water bill). And water is not only used in the bathroom.
I supposed that depends on national habits. For teeth washing, and know 
only very few people with their natural teeth. They probably didn't care 
as we do when they were young, and when get a plastic smile, they kept 
on to not use much water and toothbrushes... The delicious garlic 
fragrance of old french breathes may be not came of the vegetable ?

About perfumes, the french fame came from king Louis XIV, who had very 
smart water pieces in his gardens of Versailles palace, but any bathroom 
or toilets in buildings. Courtisans were supposed to do their needs in 
pots or on the floor behind curtains. So what we call the "Louis XIV 
method" is to use cosmetics and perfumes to hide the odors from lack of 
bodycare. And I guess that the perfumes had to be efficient :-|)

More seriously, Swedes have a great luck to have big water ressources. 
In some parts of France, southern Europe and elsewhere worldwide, 
droughtness is severe. Spain or Brasil plans to do as California to 
change river ways. Water is one of the main real reasons of the war 
between palestinians and Israelians.
At home, one of my 2 wells is dry since July and our pond is completly 
dry for the first time in 52 years. Newspaper are speaking of less than 
one month of drinkable water stocks in central western France. We can 
survive without oil, not without water.

Frantz
(one shower a day)

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Mike Weaver]

M. Falk:

As a person with (minor) French ancestry, I am shocked and offended at
your suggestion that the French do not bathe regularly.
I challenge you to defend yourself in a duel of honor.  Shampoo at
fifty yards, the first one to achieve a glossy sheen to be declared the
winner.
I name as my seconds Vidal Sasoon and the Breck girl.  If the first
duel is not satisfactory, we will rinse and repeat.

Prepare to meet your suds.

M. Weaver



Hakan Falk wrote:




  Tom,

Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this
because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the
French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower
once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according
to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the
real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on
the market.

I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using
more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week.
A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water
also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to
a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil.

Hakan


At 17:31 14/10/2005, you wrote:
  
  
Hi Bob,

You mean people heating their water with 
electricity aren't using flow limiting shower 
heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be 
talking about people who live in the third world 
not the first. Whew, I was really worried there 
for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people 
living in developing countries don't have 
accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here.

Tom Irwin



--
From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Sent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery 
and low tech Solar collectors

Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen
minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few
years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers.
average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate
varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5
gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single
family homes.





Tom Irwin wrote:


  Hi Mike,

Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15
minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say
room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature
change x specific heat.
hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't
waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving
the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste
heat and again when you scrub the tub.

Tom Irwin



*From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
*To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
*Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
*Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
collectors

With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word
"ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who
actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible
scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to
the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it).
It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like
John who present and argument and back it up with something other
than conjecture.

Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I
think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat
the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the
difference in temperature.

"...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."

Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications
and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most
people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.

"...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"

Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One
thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that
inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all,
you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an
article from www.motherearthnews.com
which talks about applying it to
solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to
recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat
recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.

"Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat
sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is
equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste hea

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Hakan Falk]

Tom,

Do not worry, it must be other developed countries than US, this
because US is using more gasoline than water. Cannot be the
French either, since I saw some statistics that they only shower
once every two weeks and that was the immigrants, according
to a French guy I know. It is no sure numbers on how often the
real French shower. They have however the best perfumes on
the market.

I feel a bit guilty here, because it is the Swedes who are using
more water than gasoline and they shower several times a week.
A very wasteful people, the Swedes, and they have a lot of water
also. They should be ashamed to use so little oil, according to
a well known oil company, who threatened to stop delivering oil.

Hakan


At 17:31 14/10/2005, you wrote:
>Hi Bob,
>
>You mean people heating their water with 
>electricity aren't using flow limiting shower 
>heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be 
>talking about people who live in the third world 
>not the first. Whew, I was really worried there 
>for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people 
>living in developing countries don't have 
>accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here.
>
>Tom Irwin
>
>
>
>--
>From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>Sent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300
>Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery 
>and low tech Solar collectors
>
>Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen
>minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few
>years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers.
>average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate
>varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5
>gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single
>family homes.
>
>
>
>
>
>Tom Irwin wrote:
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15
> > minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say
> > room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature
> > change x specific heat.
> > hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't
> > waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving
> > the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste
> > heat and again when you scrub the tub.
> >
> > Tom Irwin
> >
> >
> > --------------------
> > *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
> > *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> > collectors
> >
> > With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word
> > "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who
> > actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible
> > scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to
> > the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it).
> > It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like
> > John who present and argument and back it up with something other
> > than conjecture.
> >
> > Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I
> > think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat
> > the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the
> > difference in temperature.
> >
> > "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
> >
> > Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications
> > and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most
> > people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.
> >
> > "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
> >
> > Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One
> > thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that
> > inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all,
> > you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an
> > article from www.motherearthnews.com
> > which talks about applying it to
> > solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to
> > recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat
> > recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.
> >
> > "Though solar energ

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Bob,
 
You mean people heating their water with electricity aren't using flow limiting shower heads. Why I'm shocked to hear this. You must be talking about people who live in the third world not the first. Whew, I was really worried there for a minute. But wait I'm confused, most people living in developing countries don't have accress to electricity to heat their hot water. What's going on here.
 
Tom Irwin
 


From: bob allen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:53:14 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsAlthough my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience. A few years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 gal/min. this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single family homes.Tom Irwin wrote:> Hi Mike,> > Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 > minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say > room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature > change x specific heat.> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't > waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving > the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste > heat and again when you scrub the tub.> > Tom Irwin> > > > *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar> collectors> > With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word> "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who> actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible> scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to> the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it).> It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like> John who present and argument and back it up with something other> than conjecture.> > Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I> think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat> the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the> difference in temperature.> > "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."> > Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications> and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most> people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.> > "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"> > Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One> thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that> inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all,> you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an> article from www.motherearthnews.com> which talks about applying it to> solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to> recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat> recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.> > "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat> sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is> equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or> geothermal heat sources."> > *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p> > *Mike> > > */Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>>/* wrote:> > Hi John,> > > Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it> economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding> ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog> heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a> waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to> recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute> period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small> amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me.> > Tom Irwin> > > > > *From:* John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <_javascript_:kh6k0("new","[EMAIL PROTECTED]")>]> *To:* Biofuel@susta

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[bob allen]

Although my observations will offset in terms of net effects, a fifteen 
minute shower is a really really long shower in my experience.  A few 
years ago I had students go out and calculate energy use for showers. 
average length 3 to 4 minutes, temperature around 40 C, and flow rate 
varied from 2 to 6 gallons per minute, average on the high end about 5 
gal/min.  this from a combination of dorms, apartments, and single 
family homes.





Tom Irwin wrote:
> Hi Mike,
>  
> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 
> minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say 
> room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature 
> change x specific heat.
> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't 
> waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving 
> the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste 
> heat and again when you scrub the tub.
>  
> Tom Irwin
>  
> 
> 
> *From:* Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>     *Sent:* Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
> 
> With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word
> "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who
> actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible
> scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to
> the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it).
> It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like
> John who present and argument and back it up with something other
> than conjecture.
>  
> Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I
> think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat
> the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the
> difference in temperature.
>  
> "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
> 
> Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications
> and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most
> people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.
>  
>  "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
> 
> Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One
> thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that
> inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all,
> you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an
> article from www.motherearthnews.com
> <http://www.motherearthnews.com/> which talks about applying it to
> solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to
> recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat
> recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.
>  
> "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat
> sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is
> equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or
> geothermal heat sources."
>  
> *http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p
> 
> *Mike
>  
> 
> */Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >/* wrote:
> 
> Hi John,
>  
> 
> Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it
> economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding
> ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog
> heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a
> waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to
> recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute
> period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small
> amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me.
> 
>     Tom Irwin
> 
>      
> 
> 
> 
> *From:* John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ]
> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> 
> *Sent:* Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300
> *Subject:* Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech
> Solar collectors
> 
> Jim,
> There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there.
> They
> recover 50% 

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Michael Redler]

Thanks for the clarification Zeke. I probably missed the first few posts in this thread and lost the original intention. In any event, my position on this discussion hasn't changed. Because of the bits of energy wasted and the potential energy not yet used, I think that we can agree that, to at least some extent, our post-petroleum energy future will lead us in many directions.Places like JTF and this forum are a valuable resource for consolidating ideas for that purpose, and I react strongly (perhaps too strongly) when ideas are summarily dismissed or labeled ridiculous (for example).
 
Mike  Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Just for clarification, all of my calculations and discussion wereintended for heating the incoming DHW supply with the greywater heat,not space heating. Sorry about not being more specific earlier.ZekeOn 10/13/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: "h"?>> I reviewed your calculations and agree with them. Mine were based on a full> (15.5 cu ft) bathtub (minus occupant).>> Specific Heat = 4.186J per gm, per deg C> Mass of Water = 439Kg> Mass of Occupant = 70Kg> Differential Temperature = 45-20 = 25 C degrees>> 4.186 x 369 x 10^3 x 25 = 38.6 Megajoules = 37000BTU = 10.8KW Hour>> That's about 6.5 of your showers. I'm OK with that. That's also about $1.08> per bath equivalent savings ($.17 per shower based on $0.10 per
 kilowatt> hour of electricity). If you are only heating in the winter and you shower> daily (October through February), that's a savings of $0.17 x 30 days/mo x> 5mo = $25.5 per season.>> Now, many of us (myself included) see this as an interesting and worthwhile> experiment as it stands, especially since the economic comparison to current> electric rates is a debate in itself. However, I think you missed something> (if not the whole point). If you are most concerned with partially heating> your home in the winter by collecting waste heat, your differential> temperature should be based on the temperature of the water entering the> house, in most cases being about 13 deg C.>> The corrected heat per shower is 28% more than you calculated (about $33.00> per season). This is only considering the idea in principle and not other> possible applications (i.e. pumping the waste heat back
 into the domestic> hot water supply all year long).>> You can call it anything you want. I certainly wouldn't call such an idea> ridiculous. If you don't want to waste your time and "capital", then don't.> In the meantime, I encourage everyone else in this list to keep the ideas> coming! You all have both my encouragement and enthusiasm.>> Mike>> References:> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html> http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.html>> Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Hi Mike,>> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.> Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is> 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific> heat.> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste>
 may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water> in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again> when you scrub the tub.>> Tom Irwin___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Chip Mefford]

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> The heat exchanger path for the incoming cold water is indeed much
> smaller with a higher pressure loss (usually, a small spiral tube
> wrapped around the greywater drain pipe), however it is clean water,
> and is no different than the heat exchanger for any on demand water
> heater.
> 
--
Just a quick note:

I considered, then dismissed the spiral wrap in favor of
a multi-tube manifold, thus:
   /-\
->>-
  \--/  (sorry but that's the idea)

soldered to the underside of the copper drainpipe,
as it occured to me that there isn't going to
be a whole lot of warm water on the top of the
drain pipe where it runs near-horizontal, (slowing the
drain to recover more energy) before dropping
off vertically. If I spiral wrapped the
drain pipe, I'd be putting what heat I recover
to work warming the colder side of the pipe,
and might end up with a warmer drain pipe with
a more even heat distribution, but no real
gain of heat into the intake path.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Zeke Yewdall]

Just for clarification, all of my calculations and discussion were
intended for heating the incoming DHW supply with the greywater heat,
not space heating.  Sorry about not being more specific earlier.

Zeke

On 10/13/05, Michael Redler <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>
> "h"?
>
> I reviewed your calculations and agree with them. Mine were based on a full
> (15.5 cu ft) bathtub (minus occupant).
>
> Specific Heat = 4.186J per gm, per deg C
> Mass of Water = 439Kg
> Mass of Occupant = 70Kg
> Differential Temperature = 45-20 = 25 C degrees
>
> 4.186 x 369 x 10^3 x 25 = 38.6 Megajoules = 37000BTU = 10.8KW Hour
>
> That's about 6.5 of your showers. I'm OK with that. That's also about $1.08
> per bath equivalent savings ($.17 per shower based on $0.10 per kilowatt
> hour of electricity). If you are only heating in the winter and you shower
> daily (October through February), that's a savings of $0.17 x 30 days/mo x
> 5mo = $25.5 per season.
>
> Now, many of us (myself included) see this as an interesting and worthwhile
> experiment as it stands, especially since the economic comparison to current
> electric rates is a debate in itself. However, I think you missed something
> (if not the whole point). If you are most concerned with partially heating
> your home in the winter by collecting waste heat, your differential
> temperature should be based on the temperature of the water entering the
> house, in most cases being about 13 deg C.
>
> The corrected heat per shower is 28% more than you calculated (about $33.00
> per season). This is only considering the idea in principle and not other
> possible applications (i.e. pumping the waste heat back into the domestic
> hot water supply all year long).
>
> You can call it anything you want. I certainly wouldn't call such an idea
> ridiculous. If you don't want to waste your time and "capital", then don't.
> In the meantime, I encourage everyone else in this list to keep the ideas
> coming! You all have both my encouragement and enthusiasm.
>
> Mike
>
> References:
> http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html
> http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.html
>
> Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.
> Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is
> 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific
> heat.
> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste
> may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water
> in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again
> when you scrub the tub.
>
> Tom Irwin
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Michael Redler]

"h"?
 
I reviewed your calculations and agree with them. Mine were based on a full (15.5 cu ft) bathtub (minus occupant).
 
Specific Heat = 4.186J per gm, per deg C 
Mass of Water = 439Kg
Mass of Occupant = 70Kg
Differential Temperature = 45-20 = 25 C degrees
 
4.186 x 369 x 10^3 x 25 = 38.6 Megajoules = 37000BTU = 10.8KW Hour
 
That's about 6.5 of your showers. I'm OK with that. That's also about $1.08 per bath equivalent savings ($.17 per shower based on $0.10 per kilowatt hour of electricity). If you are only heating in the winter and you shower daily (October through February), that's a savings of $0.17 x 30 days/mo x 5mo = $25.5 per season. 
 
Now, many of us (myself included) see this as an interesting and worthwhile experiment as it stands, especially since the economic comparison to current electric rates is a debate in itself. However, I think you missed something (if not the whole point). If you are most concerned with partially heating your home in the winter by collecting waste heat, your differential temperature should be based on the temperature of the water entering the house, in most cases being about 13 deg C.
 
The corrected heat per shower is 28% more than you calculated (about $33.00 per season). This is only considering the idea in principle and not other possible applications (i.e. pumping the waste heat back into the domestic hot water supply all year long). 
 
You can call it anything you want. I certainly wouldn't call such an idea ridiculous. If you don't want to waste your time and "capital", then don't. In the meantime, I encourage everyone else in this list to keep the ideas coming! You all have both my encouragement and enthusiasm.
 
Mike
 
References:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/thermo/spht.html
http://www.unit-conversion.info/energy.htmlTom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hi Mike,
 
Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat.
hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub.
 
Tom Irwin___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Chip Mefford]

Tom Irwin wrote:
> Hi John,  
>
> 
> Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically 
> recoverable. 
>Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will
definitely grow
>and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste 
>of capital and time. 
>Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 
>10 or 15 minute 
>period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. 
>It seems ridiculous to me.  
> 
> Tom Irwin  

Not so sure I concurr with your conclusion of ridiculous.

reclaiming some heat from shower water, imho, should be doable if
they following conditions exist. You are redoing your shower
anyway, you are actually thinking about hot water plumbing
while doing it. You have full physical access. (links
to the first condition).

Seems like you could build part of the immediate drain output
out of copper. On the underside, build and solder a multi
tube manifold out of coldwater copper tubing. Put this
in line with the intake to the hot water heating system.
You are not going to recover much, However, with
a shower running with a low-flow head of 1gpm,
you are going to have to feed something like 1g back
into the hot water heater every 2 minutes or
so. And anything you can do to raise the temp
of the input to the hot water heater, is going to
result in less energy being consumed by the whole
operation of taking a hot shower. Again, given
that most of this work is going to be done anyway,
the addition of some form of heat exchange on
the drain is going to represent an expendature
of some time, some solder, and some creativity.
I think you might see an overall gain, given
that the output will occur anyway.

Now, tearing out an existing system and
redoing it for this nominal gain I think results
in a loss.


Just a thought. (or rather, something I had
planned when i redo the pumbing in the
old house).






___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Zeke Yewdall]

Good point.

 I find a value of 70GJ/tonne for the embodied energy of copper
(http://buildlca.rmit.edu.au/CaseStud/EE/EEmethod.html#location-4)
So a 50lb heat exchanger would use 1590 MJ to manufacture, which would
take about 400 showers at 4MJ energy savings each in order to pay back
-- less than a year probably.  Not bad if it has a design lifetime of
20+ years.

I suspect my numbers here only give an order of magnitude answer since
I estimated the weight, and used a number for copper in building
wiring, which was probably imprecise to begin with.

I also suspect the true environmental/societal cost of copper could be
a bit higher than purely measuring it's embodied energy, due to the
toxicity of most metals mining/refining operations.


On 10/13/05, bob allen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> so how long is the energy payback if I don't install a system- and save
> the energy investment in all that copper smelting/fabrication?
>
> Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> > So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or
> > about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that
> > shower.  Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved
> > $131  Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here
> > in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here.  Given
> > an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger
> > that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me...
> >
> > On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> Hi Mike,
> >>
> >> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.
> >> Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is
> >> 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific
> >> heat.
> >> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste
> >> may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water
> >> in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again
> >> when you scrub the tub.
> >>
> >> Tom Irwin
> >>
> >>
> >>  
> >>  From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> >> Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
> >>
> >> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> >> collectors
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in
> >> threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that
> >> the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all
> >> possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put
> >> "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions 
> >> made
> >> by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something
> >> other than conjecture.
> >>
> >> Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think
> >> of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from
> >> ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in 
> >> temperature.
> >>
> >> "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
> >>
> >> Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If
> >> clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would 
> >> be
> >> taking baths, whether they want to or not.
> >>
> >>  "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
> >>
> >>
> >> Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing
> >> about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the 
> >> cycle
> >> is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat.
> >> This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com
> >> which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition,
> >> I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. 
> >> I
> >> think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate
> >> application.
> >>
> >> "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources
> >> for the new abso

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[bob allen]

so how long is the energy payback if I don't install a system- and save 
the energy investment in all that copper smelting/fabrication?

Zeke Yewdall wrote:
> So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or
> about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that
> shower.  Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved
> $131  Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here
> in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here.  Given
> an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger
> that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me...
> 
> On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Hi Mike,
>>
>> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.
>> Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is
>> 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific
>> heat.
>> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste
>> may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water
>> in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again
>> when you scrub the tub.
>>
>> Tom Irwin
>>
>>
>>  ________
>>  From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
>>
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
>> collectors
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in
>> threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that
>> the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all
>> possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put
>> "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made
>> by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something
>> other than conjecture.
>>
>> Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think
>> of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from
>> ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature.
>>
>> "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
>>
>> Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If
>> clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be
>> taking baths, whether they want to or not.
>>
>>  "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
>>
>>
>> Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing
>> about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle
>> is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat.
>> This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com
>> which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition,
>> I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I
>> think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate
>> application.
>>
>> "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources
>> for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to
>> cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources."
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p
>>
>> Mike
>>
>>
>> Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>>
>> Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically
>> recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria
>> that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be
>> a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in
>> trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.
>> That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It
>> seems ridiculous to me.
>>
>> Tom Irwin
>>
>>
>>
>>  
>>  From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>> Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300
>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
>> collectors
>>
>> Jim,
>> There 

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Zeke Yewdall]

True, I forgot to include the heat exchanger efficiency.  But propane
is now about $16/Mbtu ($1.50/gallon) here.  And to be fair, you have
to take into account that a propane water heater isn't 100% efficient
either.  Plus most people around here use propane to heat their water
even when they do use wood heat for primary space heating.  Alot more
hassle to heat water with wood if you are used to modern plumbing.

On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Zeke,
>
> That would be 9 cents per shower with no exchanger inefficiency and
> comparing it with heating hot water with electricity. Interesting
> comparison. Throw another log or two in the fire, dude! They're renewable
> and CO2 neutral.
>
> Tom Irwin
>
>  
>  From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:06:05 -0300
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
>
> So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or
> about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that
> shower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved
> $131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here
> in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Given
> an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger
> that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me...
>
> On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin wrote:
> >
> > Hi Mike,
> >
> > Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.
> > Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is
> > 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific
> > heat.
> > hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't
> waste
> > may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water
> > in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and
> again
> > when you scrub the tub.
> >
> > Tom Irwin
> >
> >
> > ____
> > From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> > Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
> >
> > Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> > collectors
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in
> > threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that
> > the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and
> all
> > possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put
> > "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions
> made
> > by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something
> > other than conjecture.
> >
> > Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think
> > of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water
> from
> > ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in
> temperature.
> >
> > "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
> >
> > Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and
> If
> > clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would
> be
> > taking baths, whether they want to or not.
> >
> > "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
> >
> >
> > Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing
> > about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the
> cycle
> > is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate
> heat.
> > This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com
> > which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In
> addition,
> > I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water.
> I
> > think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate
> > application.
> >
> > "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources
> > for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited
> to
> > cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources."
> >
> > http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p
> >
> > Mike
> >
> >
> > Tom Irwin wrote:

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Zeke,
 
That would be 9 cents per shower with no exchanger inefficiency and comparing it with heating hot water with electricity. Interesting comparison. Throw another log or two in the fire, dude! They're renewable and CO2 neutral.
 
Tom Irwin   


From: Zeke Yewdall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 14:06:05 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsSo if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (orabout 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on thatshower. Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved$131 Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C herein the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here. Givenan installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchangerthat looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me...On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Hi Mike,>> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.> Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is> 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific> heat.> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste> may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water> in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again> when you scrub the tub.>> Tom Irwin>>> > From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300>> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar> collectors>>>>>>> With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in> threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that> the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all> possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put> "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made> by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something> other than conjecture.>> Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think> of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from> ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature.>> "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing.">> Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If> clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be> taking baths, whether they want to or not.>> "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C">>> Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing> about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle> is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat.> This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com> which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition,> I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I> think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate> application.>> "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources> for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to> cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources.">> http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p>> Mike>>> Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:>> Hi John,>>> Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically> recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria> that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be> a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in> trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.> That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It> seems ridiculous to me.>> Tom Irwin>>>> > From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar> collectors>> Jim,> There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They> recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking> showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check> http://www.gfxtechnolo

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Zeke Yewdall]

So if we assume that energy to heat water costs about $15/Mbtu (or
about 1.5 cents per MJ), then you've saved about 9 cents on that
shower.  Times four showers a day for a year, and you've saved
$131  Since incoming water temp is usually more like 5 or 10C here
in the northern US, you'd actually save a little more up here.  Given
an installed cost of $600 for a commercial greywater heat exchanger
that looks like a simple payback of four years or so to me...

On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi Mike,
>
> Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes.
> Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is
> 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific
> heat.
> hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste
> may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water
> in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again
> when you scrub the tub.
>
> Tom Irwin
>
>
>  
>  From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300
>
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
>
>
>
>
>
>
> With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in
> threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that
> the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all
> possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put
> "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made
> by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something
> other than conjecture.
>
> Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think
> of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from
> ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature.
>
> "...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
>
> Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If
> clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be
> taking baths, whether they want to or not.
>
>  "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
>
>
> Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing
> about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle
> is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat.
> This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com
> which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition,
> I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I
> think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate
> application.
>
> "Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources
> for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to
> cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources."
>
> http://tinyurl.com/dxk4p
>
> Mike
>
>
> Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>
> Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically
> recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria
> that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be
> a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in
> trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.
> That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It
> seems ridiculous to me.
>
> Tom Irwin
>
>
>
>  
>  From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
>
> Jim,
> There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They
> recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking
> showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check
> http://www.gfxtechnology.com/
> There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same
> price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these.
>
> I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most
> homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut
> that about in half

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Mike,
 
Lets do a quick calc. Let's say flow is a gallon a minute for 15 minutes. Let's say you like really hot showers at about 45C. Let's say room temp is 20C giving us a differential of 25C. Mass x Temperature change x specific heat.
hm less than 6000 kilojoules. Yep, ridiculous, meaning I wouldn't waste may time or capital. Of course, I didn't really consider leaving the water in the bathtub. That will heat ya twice, once from the waste heat and again when you scrub the tub.
 
Tom Irwin
 


From: Michael Redler [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Thu, 13 Oct 2005 10:31:05 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors




With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture.
 
Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature.
 
"...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.
 
 "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.
 
"Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources."
 
http://tinyurl.com/dxk4pMike
 
Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

Hi John,
 
Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me.
Tom Irwin
 


From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsJim,There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. Theyrecover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while takingshowers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Checkhttp://www.gfxtechnology.com/There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the sameprice of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since mosthomes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cutthat about in half.Regards;John 



 
 ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Zeke Yewdall]

Since the greywater portion of the heat exchanger must operate under
very the low pressure head of a gravity drain and still flow at an
adequate rate, it must be quite large in diameter.  It is essentially
a drain pipe and is no more likely to get clogged than any other drain
pipe.  Since the water is not standing in the heat exchanger but just
flowing through, it doesn't have the required gestation time for
significant biological growth -- just like most drain pipes don't grow
stuff, unless they have standing pools of stagnant water due to poor
slope design (hair going down the drain, or mineral deposits are
obviously a different issue).  Given that this heat exchanger is the
same diameter as any other drain plumbing, I don't see biological
fouling as a significant issue.

The heat exchanger path for the incoming cold water is indeed much
smaller with a higher pressure loss (usually, a small spiral tube
wrapped around the greywater drain pipe), however it is clean water,
and is no different than the heat exchanger for any on demand water
heater.

The effectiveness comes from the fact that showers are essentially
continuous flow systems with no time delay from inflow to outflow. 
The exact time that hot water is flowing down the drain, is the same
time that incoming cold water is flowing through the outer tubes of
the heat exchanger.  They work very well under these conditions.  Uses
such as clothes washing, dishwashing, anything that involves drawing
hot water, using it for a while, then discharging it to the drain,
they have little effect on, since the hot water discharge does not
coincide with the cold water draw to the input of the water heater. 
If showers use a significant portion of an average household's hot
water, then greywater heat reclamation would seem to make sense.

Zeke



On 10/13/05, Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hi John,
>
>
> Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically
> recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria
> that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be
> a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in
> trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period.
> That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It
> seems ridiculous to me.
>
> Tom Irwin
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>  From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Sent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300
> Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
>
>
> Jim,
> There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. They
> recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking
> showers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Check
> http://www.gfxtechnology.com/
> There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same
> price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these.
>
> I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most
> homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cut
> that about in half.
>
> Regards;
> John
>
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
> JJJN
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I
> found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and
> wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:
>
> 1) Solar collectors
>
> 2) Grey water heat going down the drain
>
> Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Jim
>
> Wisdom to all
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>
&g

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Michael Redler]

With all due respect Tom, when I see someone use the word "ridiculous" in threads like this, I usually think of the people who actually believe that the buck stops with them, every possible scenario has been explored and all possible conclusions made as to the potential of an idea (even if you put "seems" in front of it). It is presumptuous and discounts contributions made by people like John who present and argument and back it up with something other than conjecture.
 
Although, I'm not convinced that the concept can work effectively, I think of the variables involved, like the energy necessary to heat the water from ambient, the amount of water being heated and the difference in temperature.
 
"...bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing."
Fouling is a foregone conclusion in most heat exchanger applications and If clogging from bacteria were that severe, I suspect that most people would be taking baths, whether they want to or not.
 
 "...problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C"
Air conditioners are expected to function in similar situations. One thing about using heat pumps for generating heat is that inefficiency in the cycle is not necessarily a bad thing. After all, you are trying to generate heat. This is not a new idea. Below is an article from www.motherearthnews.com which talks about applying it to solar and geothermal systems. In addition, I know that it is used to recover heat from attics for domestic hot water. I think that heat recovery from waste water might also be an appropriate application.
 
"Though solar energy is likely to be one of the most popular heat sources for the new absorption-cycle heat pump, the design is equally well suited to cogeneration systems using waste heat or geothermal heat sources."
 
http://tinyurl.com/dxk4pMike
 
Tom Irwin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:



Hi John,
 
Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me.
Tom Irwin
 


From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsJim,There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. Theyrecover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while takingshowers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Checkhttp://www.gfxtechnology.com/There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the sameprice of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since mosthomes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cutthat about in half.Regards;John 
___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[des]

In my household of one, recovering the heat in my grey water is as 
simple as leaving the plug in until the water has reached room 
temperature before draining sinks or tub/shower.  In a larger family 
size situation, I can see how spacing out showers in the morning before 
getting the entire horde off to work and school, allowing water to cool 
in place would really be a waste of everyone's time, and throw the 
schedule off!

For my situation however, this works, and for no additional expense.

doug swanson



John Hall wrote:
> Jim,
> There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there.  They
> recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking
> showers.  According to the DOE studies conducted.  Check
> http://www.gfxtechnology.com/
> There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same
> price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these.  
> 
> I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most
> homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water.  This should cut
> that about in half.
> 
> Regards;
> John
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
> Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM
> To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
> 
> Hi folks,
> 
> I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I 
> found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and 
> wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:
> 
> 1) Solar collectors
> 
> 2) Grey water heat going down the drain
> 
> Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Jim
> 
> Wisdom to all
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
> 
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
> 
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
> 
> 

-- 
All generalizations are false.  Including this one.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

This email is constructed entirely with OpenSource Software.
No Microsoft databits have been incorporated herein.
All existing databits have been constructed from recycled databits.

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Tom Irwin]

Hi John,
 
Just because graywater has some heat in it does not make it economically recoverable. Graywater is a wonderful breeding ground for fungi and bacteria that will definitely grow and clog heat exchange tubing. I think it will be a huge headache and a waste of capital and time. Think about the problems in trying to recover shower water at 40 or 45 C for a 10 or 15 minute period. That´s only a 20 or 25 C differential for a very small amount of time. It seems ridiculous to me.
Tom Irwin
 
 


From: John Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Wed, 12 Oct 2005 23:16:44 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsJim,There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there. Theyrecover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while takingshowers. According to the DOE studies conducted. Checkhttp://www.gfxtechnology.com/There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the sameprice of $375 and there are tax incentives for these. I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since mosthomes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water. This should cutthat about in half.Regards;John-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED][mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of JJJNSent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PMTo: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSubject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech SolarcollectorsHi folks,I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:1) Solar collectors2) Grey water heat going down the drainCan anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?Thanks in advanceJimWisdom to all___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 
 ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[John Hall]

Jim,
There are commercial grey water heat recovery systems out there.  They
recover 50% to 75% of the heat going down your drain, largely while taking
showers.  According to the DOE studies conducted.  Check
http://www.gfxtechnology.com/
There is one other company that makes a similar product for about the same
price of $375 and there are tax incentives for these.  

I do not agree that they would not be worth it for the money since most
homes use about 30% of their energy bill heating water.  This should cut
that about in half.

Regards;
John

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of JJJN
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2005 8:15 PM
To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
collectors

Hi folks,

I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I 
found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and 
wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:

1) Solar collectors

2) Grey water heat going down the drain

Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?

Thanks in advance

Jim

Wisdom to all

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Tom Irwin]

Hi Jim,
 
Yes, proplyene or ethylene glycol will work but then you need a heat exchanger in the system for hot water use. If you are just using it for space heating then you wouldn't need the exchanger. Just make sure your pipe joints are well sealed. Can you use wood as a backup or integrated system?
 
Tom Irwin  



From: JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 14:54:08 -0300Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsHello Tom,We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters. Would antifreeze work as the fluid?Tom Irwin wrote:> Hello Jim,> > Gray water heat would require heat exchangers for very little return. > I'd go for the solar collectors, the ones for hot water can collect a > lot more heat. Where are you located?> > Tom Irwin>> *From:* JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> *Sent:* Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:14:40 -0300> *Subject:* [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar> collectors>> Hi folks,>> I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I> found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and> wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:>> 1) Solar collectors>> 2) Grey water heat going down the drain>> Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?>> Thanks in advance>> Jim>> Wisdom to all>> ___> Biofuel mailing list> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000> messages):> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> > >>>>___>Biofuel mailing list>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org>>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html>>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/>> >___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 
 ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Ken Dunn]

Jim,

did you search the archives?  search for "solar hot water heater" 
We've been discussing this a fair amount lately, several people posted
great recommendations and reference website urls.

Take care,
Ken

On 10/11/05, JJJN <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hello Tom,
> We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters.  Would antifreeze
> work as the fluid?

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[JJJN]

Hello Tom,
We are in Eastern Montana, Cold but sunny winters.  Would antifreeze 
work as the fluid?

Tom Irwin wrote:

> Hello Jim,
>  
> Gray water heat would require heat exchangers for very little return. 
> I'd go for the solar collectors, the ones for hot water can collect a 
> lot more heat. Where are you located?
>  
> Tom Irwin
>
> *From:* JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> *To:* Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> *Sent:* Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:14:40 -0300
> *Subject:* [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar
> collectors
>
> Hi folks,
>
> I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I
> found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and
> wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:
>
> 1) Solar collectors
>
> 2) Grey water heat going down the drain
>
> Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> Jim
>
> Wisdom to all
>
> ___
> Biofuel mailing list
> Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
> http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000
> messages):
> http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>  
>
>
>
>___
>Biofuel mailing list
>Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
>http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org
>
>Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>  
>

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

Re: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[Tom Irwin]

Hello Jim,
 
Gray water heat would require heat exchangers for very little return. I'd go for the solar collectors, the ones for hot water can collect a lot more heat. Where are you located?
 
Tom Irwin


From: JJJN [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.orgSent: Tue, 11 Oct 2005 00:14:40 -0300Subject: [Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectorsHi folks,I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:1) Solar collectors2) Grey water heat going down the drainCan anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?Thanks in advanceJimWisdom to all___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/


 
 ___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/

[Biofuel] Grey water heat recovery and low tech Solar collectors????

[JJJN]

Hi folks,

I was looking for some ways to help save some energy this winter. I 
found two places that may help, but I know nothing about either and 
wonder if it is worth the investment or not. They are:

1) Solar collectors

2) Grey water heat going down the drain

Can anyone give me some pointers in these two areas?

Thanks in advance

Jim

Wisdom to all

___
Biofuel mailing list
Biofuel@sustainablelists.org
http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org

Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/