[Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Randall]

Keith,

You said:  "We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. Please go and 
read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about it? You're obliged to
be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, and if you 
do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other people
or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is if you 
live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not complicit because 
you're just a helpless slave."

By your statement, in order for someone to even have a chance to avoid the 
responsibility for any bad actions by their government (ie. pollution, 
torture or nuking a country), it seems that they will need to be a person 
who:

1)  Is capable of being aware of EVERYTHING that the government does 
domestically and internationally.  To do this, you will need to posess 
God-like omniscience (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience) since you 
will need to be aware of all actions performed by every single one of the 
MILLIONS of people that are connected with the US Federal government 
alone -- currently almost 2 million employees if you ignore the Military and 
the Postal Service.  (http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm)How many more 
work for the various State and Local governments.  How many people work for 
quasi-governmental institutions that have an effect on how the government 
operates?  You quoted at least one .

2)  Is able to influence ALL of those MILLIONS of people, or possess the 
knowledge to choose which of the MILLIONS of people you will need to 
influence to force all the remaining people that you cannot influence (time, 
distance, numbers of people to speak with, whatever) to do what you wish 
them to do.

3)  Possess the knowledge of the correct thing to do, and how to communicate 
this to all of the people that you will need to influence to make what you 
want to happen occur in the manner that you desire.

---  or  ---

Is it ok for someone to just complain about the actions of the government to 
avoid being labeled complicit, or do they have to actually DO something?

If they have to do something, does it have to be effective?  If so, how 
effective does their action have to be?

How closely related to the government in question can someone be, and avoid 
responsibility for that  government's actions?   Are other countries that 
benefit from the actions of your government responsible for the actions of 
your government?  If so, are the people of those other countries then also 
responsible for your governments actions??

What if you don't want to give the government money, but they take it under 
the threat of death or imprisonment?

So...let me ask you personally:  What are you doing?  How effective have 
your actions been?  What will you do in the future to become more effective? 
When do you become blameless?  Are you aware of how every single dollar is 
spent by our government?


--Randall
Charlotte, NC


___

<< Heisenberg may have slept here >>

"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my 
xe."  --Abraham Lincoln

___

- Original Message - 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, May 08, 2006 5:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran


> Hello Mike
>
> Why're you so doubtful about it? Sure, it's always good to check, but
> it's well in line with what usually happens, as people are saying.
>
> For instance (from the list archives):
>
> http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/20263
> War on Iraq: The World According to a Bush Voter
> October 21, 2004
> "A new survey reveals that Bush supporters choose to keep faith in
> their leader rather than face reality...
> "But here is the truly astonishing part: as many or more Bush
> supporters hold those beliefs today than they did several months ago.
> In other words, more people believe the claims today -- after the
> publication of a series of well-publicized official government
> reports that debunked both notions."
>
> That poll was conducted by University of Maryland's Program on
> International Policy Attitudes (PIPA) and Knowledge Networks. Here's
> the poll report itself:
> http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Iraq/IraqRealities_Oct04/IraqRealiti
> es%20Oct04%20rpt.pdf
>
> Then there's this:
>
>>Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll [May 04]:
>>
>>- A 57% majority believed Iraq was either "directly involved" in
>>carrying out the 9/11 attacks or had provided "substantial support"
>>to al-Qaeda
>>- 82% either said that "experts mostly agree Iraq was providing
>>substantial support to al Qaeda" or "experts are evenly divided on
>>the question"
>>- 45% believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been 
>>found
>>- 60% believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of
>>mass destruction or a ma

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Keith Addison]

Hello Randall

>Keith,
>
>You said:  "We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread. 
>Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about 
>it? You're obliged to
>be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money, 
>and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other 
>people
>or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is 
>if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not 
>complicit because you're just a helpless slave."
>
>By your statement, in order for someone to even have a chance to 
>avoid the responsibility for any bad actions by their government 
>(ie. pollution, torture or nuking a country), it seems that they 
>will need to be a person who:
>
>1)  Is capable of being aware of EVERYTHING that the government does 
>domestically and internationally.  To do this, you will need to 
>posess God-like omniscience 
>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience) since you will need to be 
>aware of all actions performed by every single one of the MILLIONS 
>of people that are connected with the US Federal government alone -- 
>currently almost 2 million employees if you ignore the Military and 
>the Postal Service.  (http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm)How 
>many more work for the various State and Local governments.  How 
>many people work for quasi-governmental institutions that have an 
>effect on how the government operates?  You quoted at least one 
>.
>
>2)  Is able to influence ALL of those MILLIONS of people, or possess 
>the knowledge to choose which of the MILLIONS of people you will 
>need to influence to force all the remaining people that you cannot 
>influence (time, distance, numbers of people to speak with, 
>whatever) to do what you wish them to do.
>
>3)  Possess the knowledge of the correct thing to do, and how to 
>communicate this to all of the people that you will need to 
>influence to make what you want to happen occur in the manner that 
>you desire.
>
>---  or  ---
>
>Is it ok for someone to just complain about the actions of the 
>government to avoid being labeled complicit, or do they have to 
>actually DO something?
>
>If they have to do something, does it have to be effective?  If so, 
>how effective does their action have to be?
>
>How closely related to the government in question can someone be, 
>and avoid responsibility for that  government's actions?   Are other 
>countries that benefit from the actions of your government 
>responsible for the actions of your government?  If so, are the 
>people of those other countries then also responsible for your 
>governments actions??
>
>What if you don't want to give the government money, but they take 
>it under the threat of death or imprisonment?
>
>So...let me ask you personally:  What are you doing?  How effective 
>have your actions been?  What will you do in the future to become 
>more effective? When do you become blameless?  Are you aware of how 
>every single dollar is spent by our government?

Whose is bigger eh? :-)

What am I doing. For what's most visible, how about Journey to 
Forever? Or running the Biofuel list and helping to keep it well fed 
over the last six years with the kind of information you specify, 
often against strong opposition by people who would much rather have 
it left comfortably buried out of sight where the forces we're 
discussing had put it, and put them too in a state of heedless and 
uncaring ignorance, consent, and indeed complicity.

That information includes about the best set of tools I've seen for 
doing all the things you specify, including investigation, spin 
detection, source checking, counter-spin and counter-propaganda, and 
the kind of activism required if you're interested in a sustainable 
future. There's been much discussion here on activism, and on "What 
can I do?" That's all there too, with solutions offered. And I 
provide this resource.

That's just for now, some things.

If you go back through my history you'll find an unbroken record of 
opposing the forces we're discussing, in many ways and across a broad 
range of issues, and in many countries, mainly but not only as a 
campaigning journalist. It's something I've never stopped since I 
started it long ago in white racist South Africa, where life tended 
to be short and have ugly endings for people who felt they ought to 
take a hand in deciding what they were going to be complicit in.

You can find some of the details of all this at our website, and 
elsewhere. I'm not planning on stopping.

Have my actions been effective? Yes, they have. They are being now. 
There are very many people, VERY many, who could give you their own 
versions of that story. Together it all covers everything you specify 
and much besides. Today these people work both separately and 
together, sharing resources across a wide range of issues, the whole 
range perhaps, via the Internet, the great leveller. Are their 
actions proving effec

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Randall]

<< Heisenberg may have slept here >>

"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening my 
xe."  --Abraham Lincoln

_______



----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Keith Addison" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Tuesday, May 09, 2006 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor 
of Nukes on Iran


> Hello Randall
>
>>Keith,
>>
>>You said:  "We've just dealt with this, in the torture thread.
>>Please go and read it. You are complicit. What are you doing about
>>it? You're obliged to
>>be aware of what your government does abroad with your tax money,
>>and if you do nothing to counter it you are complicit. What other
>>people
>>or other governments do is beside the point. The only exception is
>>if you live under a totalitarian dictatorship, then you're not
>>complicit because you're just a helpless slave."
>>
>>By your statement, in order for someone to even have a chance to
>>avoid the responsibility for any bad actions by their government
>>(ie. pollution, torture or nuking a country), it seems that they
>>will need to be a person who:
>>
>>1)  Is capable of being aware of EVERYTHING that the government does
>>domestically and internationally.  To do this, you will need to
>>posess God-like omniscience
>>(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omniscience) since you will need to be
>>aware of all actions performed by every single one of the MILLIONS
>>of people that are connected with the US Federal government alone -- 
>>currently almost 2 million employees if you ignore the Military and
>>the Postal Service.  (http://www.bls.gov/oco/cg/cgs041.htm)How
>>many more work for the various State and Local governments.  How
>>many people work for quasi-governmental institutions that have an
>>effect on how the government operates?  You quoted at least one
>><http://www.pipa.org/>.
>>
>>2)  Is able to influence ALL of those MILLIONS of people, or possess
>>the knowledge to choose which of the MILLIONS of people you will
>>need to influence to force all the remaining people that you cannot
>>influence (time, distance, numbers of people to speak with,
>>whatever) to do what you wish them to do.
>>
>>3)  Possess the knowledge of the correct thing to do, and how to
>>communicate this to all of the people that you will need to
>>influence to make what you want to happen occur in the manner that
>>you desire.
>>
>>---  or  ---
>>
>>Is it ok for someone to just complain about the actions of the
>>government to avoid being labeled complicit, or do they have to
>>actually DO something?
>>
>>If they have to do something, does it have to be effective?  If so,
>>how effective does their action have to be?
>>
>>How closely related to the government in question can someone be,
>>and avoid responsibility for that  government's actions?   Are other
>>countries that benefit from the actions of your government
>>responsible for the actions of your government?  If so, are the
>>people of those other countries then also responsible for your
>>governments actions??
>>
>>What if you don't want to give the government money, but they take
>>it under the threat of death or imprisonment?
>>
>>So...let me ask you personally:  What are you doing?  How effective
>>have your actions been?  What will you do in the future to become
>>more effective? When do you become blameless?  Are you aware of how
>>every single dollar is spent by our government?
>
> Whose is bigger eh? :-)
>
> What am I doing. For what's most visible, how about Journey to
> Forever? Or running the Biofuel list and helping to keep it well fed
> over the last six years with the kind of information you specify,
> often against strong opposition by people who would much rather have
> it left comfortably buried out of sight where the forces we're
> discussing had put it, and put them too in a state of heedless and
> uncaring ignorance, consent, and indeed complicity.
>
> That information includes about the best set of tools I've seen for
> doing all the things you specify, including investigation, spin
> detection, source checking, counter-spin and counter-propaganda, and
> the kind of activism required if you're interested in a sustainable
> future. There's been much discussion here on activism, and on "What
> can I do?" That's all there too, with solutions offered. And I
&

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Keith Addison]

say over and over that information has been out there for people 
>to gleen for years and years.  True.  However, how many people prior 
>to the Internet, had the ability to search for and VERIFY 
>information with the ease of today?  30 years ago, you would have 
>needed access to a well equipped library with a large 
>microfilm/microfiche archive, the time to browse for the relevant 
>articles, read and then understand them.  I would venture a guess 
>that most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply 
>read everything of interest to find something that may not be right 
>in the world.  That is where the "modern" media has done its 
>disservice...the "help" by condensing this tremendous amount of 
>information into something digestable to the average person.  The 
>PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS 
>in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue.
>
>So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please 
>temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by 
>nature researchers.  It takes a special type of person to be able to 
>read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information.
>
>>There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know
>>it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as
>>much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the ear goes
>>deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on
>>everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows
>>the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to
>>stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on
>>complicity, don't you think?
>
>Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing 
>something.  Simply put, you do not know what you do not know.  You 
>can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to 
>DO anything with that knowledge.  This does not excuse everything, 
>but it explains some things.It is quite true that everyone is 
>not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have 
>done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF. 
>Let me say "Thanks" right now...it has been very helpful for me 
>personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it.
>
>You also say that asking people that are trying to help if their 
>actions are effective is heartless.  I disagree wholeheartedly.  If 
>people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically, 
>they risk causing more problems then they solve.  That is the heart 
>of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask 
>you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help, 
>should never mind someone asking them questions, including "is it 
>working?"
>
>My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as 
>your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to 
>THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see, 
>hear or read.  I can bring up even more topics ranging from the 
>purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to "conspiracy" 
>related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place 
>here.  You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is 
>important.
>
>It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their 
>life.  Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand 
>our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia.  My wife is 
>Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine) 
>have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems. 
>I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can "out 
>help" other people...nor do I think it is helpful or polite to blame 
>people for the actions of others.
>
>People have different abilities and capabilities to help...I wish I 
>had more time, but our 15 month-old son needs our attention as well, 
>and he doesn't yet (but he will) understand why daddy needs to read 
>for a while and not play with him.  In the end, it is the DESIRE to 
>help that will save us all...without the desire, nothing else can 
>happen.  I know that there will be at least ONE more person in the 
>world that understands...and he can help teach others.
>
>--Randall
>Charlotte, NC
>
>
>___
>
><< Heisenberg may have slept here >>
>
>"If I had eight hours to chop down a tree, I'd spend six sharpening 
>my xe."  --Abraham Lincoln
>
>

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Keith Addison]

Lots of people are commenting that Americans are waking up en masse.

One view I get of it comes from what many American applicants to join 
the list tell listadmin.

In the last year the numbers of applicants rose steadily overall, a 
considerably steeper rise than a year previously. The global 
distribution remains the same - very global!

There were always a number of these people among the US contingent:

>Results of previous PIPA/Knowledge Networks poll [May 04]:
>
>- A 57% majority believed Iraq was either "directly involved" in
>carrying out the 9/11 attacks or had provided "substantial support"
>to al-Qaeda
>- 82% either said that "experts mostly agree Iraq was providing
>substantial support to al Qaeda" or "experts are evenly divided on
>the question"
>- 45% believe that evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda 
>has been found
>- 60% believe that just before the war Iraq either had weapons of
>mass destruction or a major program for developing them
>- 65% said most experts say Iraq did have them or that experts are
>divided on the question
>- estimates of the number of US troop fatalities in Iraq varied widely
>- 59% were unaware that the majority of world public opinion is
>opposed to the US war with Iraq
>- asked how many nuclear weapons the U.S. has, the median estimate
>was 200 (the actual number is 6,000)
>
>These beliefs are closely correlated with intentions to vote for Bush.

They often give personal detail, but there tends to be a sameness of 
view. They'd often tell listadmin they were interested in biofuels 
because they didn't want to put their money in the pockets of 
terrorists.

Over the last eight months it's been changing, there's a curve.

It changed from terrorists to terrorist nations, and then to unstable 
Middle Eastern regimes. Muslims continued to be favourite unpopular 
people not to put your money in the pockets of (and worse). Around 
that time (post-Katrina) people also started mentioning environmental 
benefits as a possible by-product of using biofuels. Then the actual 
amount they didn't want to give to whoever it was started getting 
much more important as the gas price rose, but the environment got 
more important too, even unto climate change. Climate change slowly 
started changing into global warming, and everything got more intense 
as the gas price kept rising. The number of people who just wanted to 
(or had to) save money rose with it. Government started creeping up 
the unpopularity chart, though mostly only obliquely mentioned, and 
it hasn't made it to the bigtime yet. More recently, indepence from 
foreign oil shot right up, displacing unstable Middle Eastern 
regimes, which fell right down in unpopularity. Foreign oil is still 
right up there, but it was joined by Big Oil companies, and then by 
ExxonMobil, and then by ExxonMobil's retiring CEO with his $400 
million gold watch.

Just think of that: Osama bin Laden just morphed into the CEO of 
ExxonMobil. Ain't that something.

Nobody has yet said they want to make biodiesel because they hate 
Iran. (But they have said that about Saudi Arabia.) Iraq comes into 
it occasionally but never the Iraqis, except maybe as being not worth 
investing more dead soldiers in. Oil and war are sometimes linked, 
especially more recently.

"What's all this off-topic political crap got to do with BIODIESEL?"

LOL!

It's a list joke. That's what these folks used to say here, and some 
still do. Some who hate ExxonMobil's CEO still say that.

They're moved by memes, as Godwin would say. Just because they think 
something new now doesn't mean they've worked anything much else out 
yet. It doesn't even mean they're aware they thought (felt) something 
different yesterday.

Can you project the curve forward? Who is it they're going to end up 
wanting to make biodiesel so they don't have to put money in his 
pocket?

An interesting glimpse.

The only thing I'll bet on is that it won't be Osama bin Laden.

By the way, I'm not being disparaging, I really don't like it when 
people sneer at "sheeple". But when you're watching social movement 
it's the tide that counts, more than the drops of water. Of course in 
another way they're the only thing that matters.

Something else that's to be seen in the same dataset is a different 
sort of pattern among responses from Americans who probably don't 
watch FauxTV. It's more interesting, but it's more difficult to 
describe too because there's more variety, the sameness is lacking. 
It's something you'd do by using lots of examples, not just painting 
broad sweeping patterns, it's more of a mosaic. They often talk about 
Iran, and Iraq, oil, war, money, corrupt corporations and 
politicians, the environment and global warming, even torture 
sometimes. They often say what they're doing too, or what their plans 
or their dreams are. There seem to be fewer viral memes at work here, 
they're general

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Hakan Falk]

>
> >Keith,
> >
> >My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is
> >right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible
> >for something that they have no CONTROL over.  That is by its very
> >definition, unfair.  That is middle ages thinking at best.   To be
> >blunt, I generally do not care what someone from another country
> >thinks of my country when I know that their country is doing much of
> >the same thing that they complain about my country doing.  They are
> >just being hypocrites--knowingly or unknowingly--and are usually
> >just ignored.
> >
> >You say over and over that information has been out there for people
> >to gleen for years and years.  True.  However, how many people prior
> >to the Internet, had the ability to search for and VERIFY
> >information with the ease of today?  30 years ago, you would have
> >needed access to a well equipped library with a large
> >microfilm/microfiche archive, the time to browse for the relevant
> >articles, read and then understand them.  I would venture a guess
> >that most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply
> >read everything of interest to find something that may not be right
> >in the world.  That is where the "modern" media has done its
> >disservice...the "help" by condensing this tremendous amount of
> >information into something digestable to the average person.  The
> >PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS
> >in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue.
> >
> >So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please
> >temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by
> >nature researchers.  It takes a special type of person to be able to
> >read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information.
> >
> >>There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know
> >>it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as
> >>much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the ear goes
> >>deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on
> >>everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows
> >>the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to
> >>stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on
> >>complicity, don't you think?
> >
> >Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing
> >something.  Simply put, you do not know what you do not know.  You
> >can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to
> >DO anything with that knowledge.  This does not excuse everything,
> >but it explains some things.It is quite true that everyone is
> >not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have
> >done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF.
> >Let me say "Thanks" right now...it has been very helpful for me
> >personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it.
> >
> >You also say that asking people that are trying to help if their
> >actions are effective is heartless.  I disagree wholeheartedly.  If
> >people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically,
> >they risk causing more problems then they solve.  That is the heart
> >of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask
> >you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help,
> >should never mind someone asking them questions, including "is it
> >working?"
> >
> >My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as
> >your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to
> >THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see,
> >hear or read.  I can bring up even more topics ranging from the
> >purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to "conspiracy"
> >related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place
> >here.  You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is
> >important.
> >
> >It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their
> >life.  Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand
> >our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia.  My wife is
> >Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine)
> >have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems.
> >I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can "out
> >help" other people...n

Re: [Biofuel] Torture and/or Nuking Iran -- was Re: Poll in favor of Nukes on Iran

[Michael Redler]

"My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible for something that they have no CONTROL over.  That is by its very definition, unfair."     You CAN hold someone accountable for not acting locally to build a base from which to control something which is attempting to harm to you, your family, or your community.     Someone who ignores what should be resisted, should get the same attention you'd give someone who wishes to harm you.        Mike R.     Randall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:  Keith,My point is not that people should not try to learn and do what is
 right and correct...it is that you CANNOT hold someone responsible for something that they have no CONTROL over. That is by its very definition, unfair. That is middle ages thinking at best. To be blunt, I generally do not care what someone from another country thinks of my country when I know that their country is doing much of the same thing that they complain about my country doing. They are just being hypocrites--knowingly or unknowingly--and are usually just ignored.You say over and over that information has been out there for people to gleen for years and years. True. However, how many people prior to the Internet, had the ability to search for and VERIFY information with the ease of today? 30 years ago, you would have needed access to a well equipped library with a large microfilm/microfiche archive, the time to browse for the relevant articles, read and then understand them. I would venture a guess that
 most people simply did not have 10 to 20 hours a week to simply read everything of interest to find something that may not be right in the world. That is where the "modern" media has done its disservice...the "help" by condensing this tremendous amount of information into something digestable to the average person. The PROBLEM as you have pointed out repeatedly is that there is a BIAS in the spin/digestion that is generally unhealthy and untrue.So, when you lambast people for not investigating enough, please temper your ire with understanding that most people are not by nature researchers. It takes a special type of person to be able to read, categorize, understand and verify large amounts of information.> There surely is no way of knowing something if you don't want to know> it. The opinion manufacturing industry doesn't really hide things as> much as render them uninteresting, the eye slides away, the
 ear goes> deaf, the attention wanders. It works very well. But not on> everybody. Not everybody is deaf to the truth, not everybody swallows> the lies. Why's that? How do some people - many people - manage to> stay awake and alert and undeceived? That has a bearing on> complicity, don't you think?Keep in mind that desire does not always play a key role in knowing something. Simply put, you do not know what you do not know. You can spend your entire life learning new things and have no time to DO anything with that knowledge. This does not excuse everything, but it explains some things. It is quite true that everyone is not deaf to the truth...hence this list and the great work you have done in nutruring, maintaining and helping it grow along with JTF. Let me say "Thanks" right now...it has been very helpful for me personally, and quite a few people that I have pointed towards it.You also say
 that asking people that are trying to help if their actions are effective is heartless. I disagree wholeheartedly. If people do not stop and reassess what they are doing periodically, they risk causing more problems then they solve. That is the heart of learning and progress. There are other questions that I would ask you, but would do so off-list. But, someone who is trying to help, should never mind someone asking them questions, including "is it working?"My activities have not been as far-ranging and involved as your's...but I have spent quite a few years trying to get people to THINK and consider options to just believing everything they see, hear or read. I can bring up even more topics ranging from the purely ecomonic, to the environmental and finally to "conspiracy" related items in this mailing list, but it would be out of place here. You have done a good job balancing this list, and that is
 important.It is more than ok to ask someone what they are doing with their life. Most recently, me and my wife have started trying to expand our effort to help some orphans in Ukraine and Russia. My wife is Ukrainian and she and some of her family (in Russia and Ukraine) have suffered directly from Chernobyl explosion and other problems. I do not think that it is helpful to try to to see who can "out help" other people...nor do I think it is helpful or polite to blame people for the actions of others.People have different abilities and capabilities to help...I wish I had more time, but our 15 month-old son needs our attention as well, and he doesn't yet (but he will) understan