Re: [Biofuel] Transesterification Seperation
Hello John JTF states in Section 5 (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew) , to carefully decant the BD off the top, making certain not to get any of the glycerine in the BD. If you do, resettle and and try again. Not quite right. Why not just quote it, copy and paste? Carefully decant the top layer of biodiesel into a clean jar or PET bottle, taking care not to get any of the glycerine layer mixed up with the biodiesel. If you do, re-settle and try again. Decant the top layer, not decant off the top. In fact if you're using the test-batch processor that it recommends, it won't be off the top. Anyway, sure you can do it the way you describe, or use a stand-pipe: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#holdstand Yes this is crude but it is a test batch for beginners. On the larger scale. Using a approx. 145 degree included cone bottom tank, and I am draining from the bottom, is it possible to have glycerine contamination from (for better words) DROPLETS clinging to the sides of the tank? Would a side tap on the side of the tank, a few inches above the glycerine line, help prevent glycerine mix? 1.Drain BD out side 2.Slowly drain remaining mix through a clear hose. 2a.Drain glycerine into a glycerine tank. When you see a BD/glycerine mix entering hose, close a valve, switch to a different (mix tank) and drain the remaining content. Might be 5 or more gallons in this mix 3.Continue with processing BD. I know approximate is a bad word around here, Not really, it depends what you use it with, life is an approximate affair after all, but measurements of chemicals should be accurate if possible, especially when accurate measures are easily available. but I have to design my system and they could be more or less. Assuming (another bad word) theoretically I would have 10 gallons BD and 1 gallon glycerine per batch. Same - with no theory practice just stands still, but there's no need to reinvent wheels. Best Keith After 17 batches of BD, I would be left with the approx. 170 gallons BD and 17 gallons glycerine. This could be reheated/resettled the same way as steps 1 thru 3. Does it sound reasonable or I worry too much? Thanks, John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] Transesterification Seperation
You've got a pretty good understanding of how to conduct a side take-off of different layers. Carry on McDuff. Todd Swearingen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: JTF states in Section 5 (http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_make.html#biodnew) , to carefully decant the BD off the top, making certain not to get any of the glycerine in the BD. If you do, resettle and and try again. Yes this is crude but it is a test batch for beginners. On the larger scale. Using a approx. 145 degree included cone bottom tank, and I am draining from the bottom, is it possible to have glycerine contamination from (for better words) DROPLETS clinging to the sides of the tank? Would a side tap on the side of the tank, a few inches above the glycerine line, help prevent glycerine mix? 1.Drain BD out side 2.Slowly drain remaining mix through a clear hose. 2a.Drain glycerine into a glycerine tank. When you see a BD/glycerine mix entering hose, close a valve, switch to a different (mix tank) and drain the remaining content. Might be 5 or more gallons in this mix 3.Continue with processing BD. I know approximate is a bad word around here, but I have to design my system and they could be more or less. Assuming (another bad word) theoretically I would have 10 gallons BD and 1 gallon glycerine per batch. After 17 batches of BD, I would be left with the approx. 170 gallons BD and 17 gallons glycerine. This could be reheated/resettled the same way as steps 1 thru 3. Does it sound reasonable or I worry too much? Thanks, John Frey ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [biofuel] glycerol seperation and clouds
Hello Jack I'm interested to see what other listers may have to say about your clouding questions. I don't think I've seen a definitive answer to it yet. I am wondering if this is all very usual, or if there is a quicker way to get the settle/wash done. Mark, if you read this, what was the outcome of your bubble-drying work? Did you get to the bottom of it? Check these out Jack: http://nnytech.net/~archive2/index.php?view=19230list=BIOFUEL http://nnytech.net/~archive2/index.php?view=20311list=BIOFUEL Just a suggestion - you could try washing the oil first. Try it with a couple of test batches, two ways, with cold water and with hot. Add about 50% water and bubblewash for half an hour, let settle, drain and dry, process. With hot water, heat the oil to about 60 deg C, pour about 50% much hotter water on top, 85-90 deg C, check the combined temperature and maintain at that temp, bubblewash for half an hour, cut heat, settle, drain, dry and process. I've done this a couple of times with oil that titrated well but obviously had various impurities in it and it worked well. Maybe it'll work for you, maybe not. Please let us know the result. Best wishes Keith Hi all - I am wondering if you all could help me clarify a few production questions. Let me describe a bit the conditions I am working with. First, my oil is very good quality wvo from a cruise ship. They use it 1-2 days and then give it to us. My titrations routinely give me a value of around .3 - .5 extra grams of lye/liter ( I use a biurette for titration, so small quantities to 1/10th ml are fairly easy to determine). My batch sizes are presently about 40-50 gallons and I am using 23% methanol to ensure that the reaction goes far enough. I am preheating my oil to 120 F and filtering, though only coursely (through 4-ply steel screen), before pumping into reaction tank. I pump the hot oil from about 6 off bottom of drum to avoid getting any residual water. Once in the reaction tank, I am no longer able to maintain heat, so the temp falls off from there during the reaction. The methoxide I mix with both a high rpm mixer and a circulating pump for about 20-30 minutes. I mix the whole batch with the same mixer for 3-4 hours - it is quite vigorous. I let it sit after mixing for about 24 hours, but I do not stir the glycerol back in. Here is what I am seeing: 1 -for a 40 gallon batch of veggie oil, I am getting only about 5 gallons of glycerol seperating out on bottom. Does this seem like a normal amount? I used 9.2 gallons methanol and 3.8g/liter NaOH - totaling 575g. 2 - The biodiesel on top is also still cloudy. This is puzzling to me, but I am still not quite sure if it is normal. I have other tanks that I let it settle in for about a week and some more fatty substances fall out (more glycerol? tallow esters?). But it is still not totally clear. When I go to wash, it is usually a painful process - takes forever. First wash comes out white, second less so and third pretty darn clear, but the biodiesel is still not totally clear (usual?). I am adding 10 ml/L of white vinegar to the wash, but I am concerned to use more to avoid converting back to FFA's. If I heat to 90-100 degrees F, it seems to clear and sometimes remains clear, sometimes not. If it does, I filter and use it. If not I wait longer, and eventuallyit clears. I am wondering if this is all very usual, or if there is a quicker way to get the settle/wash done. I am trying right now to process all of the 100 gallons a week in a 50 gallon processor, so I am doing two batches and my settle/wash tank space is tight. Would stirring glycerol back in help? More/less Methanol? I have searched the archives and found a ton of useful info, but I was hoping someone might have a minute to comment on some of the particulars of my situation. Thanks in advance for any assistance. Best, Jack Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Island School 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] no seperation
did it burn in an engine? where there any differences in performance over regular diesel? -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax If we don't believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don't believe in it at all. -- - Original Message - From: Hasan TURCAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: biofuel@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:44 AM Subject: [biofuel] no seperation hello everybody, thanks a lot to the guys replying my previous questions. In my first trial of producing biodiesel in the laboratory there occured a cloudy and unseperated mixture . It màght be because of the quality and the quantity of oil, lye or methanol.i filtered it through a filter paper. The final product was a yellow very clean fluid. So is it possible to use an unseparated mixture as biodiesel after filtering. Thanks Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 BTW: Did you buy that new car yet? If not, check this site out. They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car. http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/5/_/837408/_/963755461/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW: Did you buy that new car yet? If not, check this site out. They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car. http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/5/_/837408/_/963756325/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Re: [biofuel] no seperation]
you should be testing your brew before you start making bigger batches. a small diesel generator or junk vw ( I picked up a non roadworthy vw rabbit for $150 that had a good engine) will work fine. -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax If we don't believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don't believe in it at all. -- - Original Message - From: Hasan TURCAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [Re: [biofuel] no seperation] hello steve, no i didnt experience àt in a diesel engine, it was because i wasnt sure about its composition and performance. That trial was before my pilot studies .i aimed to learn how to make biodiesel and in august i will try to produce in large quantities Best Regards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Attachment: MIME Type: multipart/alternative - did it burn in an engine? where there any differences in performance over regular diesel? -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax If we don't believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don't believe in it at all. -- - Original Message - From: Hasan TURCAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: biofuel@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:44 AM Subject: [biofuel] no seperation hello everybody, thanks a lot to the guys replying my previous questions. In my first trial of producing biodiesel in the laboratory there occured a cloudy and unseperated mixture . It màght be because of the quality and the quantity of oil, lye or methanol.i filtered it through a filter paper. The final product was a yellow very clean fluid. So is it possible to use an unseparated mixture as biodiesel after filtering. Thanks Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 BTW: Did you buy that new car yet? If not, check this site out. They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car. http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/5/_/837408/_/963755461/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue. http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/5/_/837408/_/963763149/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] BTW: Did you buy that new car yet? If not, check this site out. They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car. http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/5/_/837408/_/963764745/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Re: [biofuel] no seperation]
hello steve, no i didnt experience ýt in a diesel engine, it was because i wasnt sure about its composition and performance. That trial was before my pilot studies .i aimed to learn how to make biodiesel and in august i will try to produce in large quantities Best Regards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Attachment: MIME Type: multipart/alternative - did it burn in an engine? where there any differences in performance over regular diesel? -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax If we don't believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don't believe in it at all. -- - Original Message - From: Hasan TURCAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: biofuel@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:44 AM Subject: [biofuel] no seperation hello everybody, thanks a lot to the guys replying my previous questions. In my first trial of producing biodiesel in the laboratory there occured a cloudy and unseperated mixture . It mýght be because of the quality and the quantity of oil, lye or methanol.i filtered it through a filter paper. The final product was a yellow very clean fluid. So is it possible to use an unseparated mixture as biodiesel after filtering. Thanks Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 BTW: Did you buy that new car yet? If not, check this site out. They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car. http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/5/_/837408/_/963755461/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue. http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/5/_/837408/_/963763149/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Re: [Re: [biofuel] no seperation]]
dear steve thanks for your advices [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Attachment: MIME Type: multipart/alternative - you should be testing your brew before you start making bigger batches. a small diesel generator or junk vw ( I picked up a non roadworthy vw rabbit for $150 that had a good engine) will work fine. -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax If we don't believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don't believe in it at all. -- - Original Message - From: Hasan TURCAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 10:12 AM Subject: Re: [Re: [biofuel] no seperation] hello steve, no i didnt experience ýt in a diesel engine, it was because i wasnt sure about its composition and performance. That trial was before my pilot studies .i aimed to learn how to make biodiesel and in august i will try to produce in large quantities Best Regards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Attachment: MIME Type: multipart/alternative - did it burn in an engine? where there any differences in performance over regular diesel? -- Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax If we don't believe in freedom of speech for people who we disagree with, we don't believe in it at all. -- - Original Message - From: Hasan TURCAN [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: biofuel@egroups.com Sent: Sunday, July 16, 2000 9:44 AM Subject: [biofuel] no seperation hello everybody, thanks a lot to the guys replying my previous questions. In my first trial of producing biodiesel in the laboratory there occured a cloudy and unseperated mixture . It mýght be because of the quality and the quantity of oil, lye or methanol.i filtered it through a filter paper. The final product was a yellow very clean fluid. So is it possible to use an unseparated mixture as biodiesel after filtering. Thanks Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 BTW: Did you buy that new car yet? If not, check this site out. They're called CarsDirect.com and it's a pretty sweet way to buy a car. http://click.egroups.com/1/6847/5/_/837408/_/963755461/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Life's too short to send boring email. Let SuperSig come to the rescue. http://click.egroups.com/1/6137/5/_/837408/_/963763149/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1 Wish you had something rad to add to your email? We do at www.supersig.com. http://click.egroups.com/1/6810/5/_/837408/_/963766938/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
