Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Hi Hakan Keith, It is so many who does a great job in sharing, Yourself, Girl Mark, Todd, MM and many others, that both are vocal and silent. This is your profit and it is huge and rewarding. It is the only way to get a movement in the right direction going. The atmosphere on the JTF list is constructive and positive, even during hard energy political. (and sometimes less to do with energy), are discussed. It is a very good group. I joined a few groups, to see if I found ones that I could recommend in my different sections. It is a large difference, except for a few where most members also are involved with JTF and that are specialized in a good way. I found out where some persons did go, when they left JTF, interesting experience of good and bad. Yes, isn't it just. Of course the information on JTF is going to be partially used for commercial production and it is nothing wrong with that. Depends how it's done. I do hope and belive that the JTF site and the discussion group will be able to rub of its generally good ethics and it is more effective than trying to set guide lines or some sort of rules. I think it has been, but there are many cases where it hasn't been. That's why I'd like to spell a few things out, inasmuch as they're able to be spelled out. Setting a good example is often the most effective. Yes. Rules are useless, guidelines might be useful, examples are best, and we do have a few good ones. Thanks Hakan. Regards Keith Hakan At 21:13 14/12/2003, you wrote: Hi Hakan Keith, I misunderstood, probably because I read one of the answers who assume that this was the question, before I answered. No problem Hakan. We have our site http://energysavingnow.com/http://energysavingnow.com/ who deals with our quite unique research and experiences concerning buildings, plus some education on energy in general, information that can result in spectacular energy savings. What we have to communicate is free to use, otherwise the publication of it is meaningless. My understanding is that JFT has the same goals together with anyone who publish descriptions on how to make things on our sites. It is at the end almost always the case that someone makes money on this kind of information, it is the nature of it. The one who applies it will save money and others can sell methods or equipment that saves energy (make money). The only problem is that we now not only put in many hours of work on this, we also have to pay the costs. It is however the only way to try to make a difference that counts at the end. JTF and your work is a good example on this for biofuels. Even if I misunderstood the question, the answer covers in a way the original question also. If we at this stage wanted to make money, we would not publish our knowledge and instead continue as consulting engineers. We would only publish our impressive results from Sweden and then use our knowledge against remuneration. This way we would earn money, but our capacity would not be enough to make the slightest difference on the energy total energy situation. That's exactly right. For us it's much broader than energy issues, but the same applies. Others will use our information and get money. This is good, because it will rapidly further our cause and maybe make an important addition to solving the total problem. This is the nature of education and publication. I cannot say much more about it, without duplicating or direct copying of what you are saying. There's something about givers and takers - give to givers and take from takers, we used to say. Takers take and nothing else happens, nothing comes back, nothing spreads, nothing grows, nothing changes. Stony ground. That's what I want to establish. We can't stop people just taking and never adding anything in exchange, but I think it would help a lot to lay it out clearly just what sort of biofuels (and other) businesses we support and why (not just me, all of us), and what we don't support, and why. Mark's already laid the groundwork for the second bit: From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:11:41 -0800 Subject: [biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to snip But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the
RE: [biofuel] Commercial production
Hi to all My salute and million thanks to people behind in making this website I donât want to elaborate more but express my gratitude and personal thank you to all. My your day be merry this coming season greetings Best wishes Frank -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 3:36 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine examples of entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who most eloquently outlined the downside in her Homebrewer on a soapbox post: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use, and if it is, under what conditions? Not that we can stop anyone using it, it's there for the taking, the door's wide open, but some clear-cut language in a sign on the door wouldn't go amiss. We all want to see biofuels replacing fossil fuels, but we've also come to realise that there are good ways and bad ways of doing it. Many of us don't see the NBB and Big Soy eg as our friends in any way - their aims are not our aims
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Frank..., And a Happy Humbug! to all as well. Ye indeede! Humbug! Humbug! in July. Humbug! in May! Humbug! in February! Humbug! Yes.., Bahh Humbug! But don't be any the less happy about it! :-) Celebrate Humbug!!! - Original Message - From: Franklin B. Del Rosario [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, December 15, 2003 8:47 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi to all My salute and million thanks to people behind in making this website I don't want to elaborate more but express my gratitude and personal thank you to all. My your day be merry this coming season greetings Best wishes Frank -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 12, 2003 3:36 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine examples of entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who most eloquently outlined the downside in her Homebrewer on a soapbox post: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Hi Jack, and all Hi Keith, et. al. I am glad that this conversation is happening, because I think that it is perhaps one of the most important discussions out there today. That is, how do we seek to redefine our economies in such a way that localized development for subsistence and self-autonomy can parallel a business model that operates for-profit in the market. That's a nice summing up. First, I pretend nothing - especially not to have any answers - but I am intrigued by the question...enough so that it forms the basis of my daily work. I will expose some of my less formulated thinking for the group to mull about and help me refine in hopes that it may also add something to the conversation. It certainly does, thanks for this. Our model with biofuel production started as a mission to reduce our ecological footprint in a fragile coastal/marine environment on Eleuthera. As a school and RD agency, we also wanted to be able to develop a system that would be a functional model for others in this area and we would help them develop those opportunities. We also found that what was best for the environment was also best for the bottom line. We had an aging fleet of gasoline vehicles from Detroit that guzzled fuel. Over 8 months, as they died, we replaced them with efficient diesel passenger and work vehicles from Japan at a cost of $60,000 (for 7 vehicles in great condition). I have invested roughly $10,000 in the lab (including the building) that we now use to process the fuel. If I could do it all over again with the experience that I now have, I think I could do it for about half that. As it stands, with what we produce and the average price of #2 diesel in The Bahamas we save about $13,000 in fuel every year using biodiesel. Not only does that pay for the lab in under a year, but it starts eating away at the very cost of the vehicles such that our total investment is recouped in roughly 5 years. All this while preventing tons of carbon from entering the atmosphere, lowering marine toxicity hazards, reducing a seperate wastestream, keeping more money local for fuel, getting a better product than #2 diesel and establishing an effective model. Now that serious profit!! I have the list member at JTF to thank - I give a great deal of credit to everyone who has helped me and I mention them on every tour I give. If I had money to give, I woudl certainly support JtF for their continual efforts. I don't. What I would do is offer JtF the same services they have offered me, to the extent of my ability. I am not personally proprietary over any aspects of what my organization does here and it will continue to benefit me and my organization no matter how many other people know about it or choose to pursue it (I think). This is the same for all aspects of our organization: fish farming, land farming, renewable energy development, local building materials, water resource management, marine resource management - we are a clearing house aiming to amplify the good work that others do that we can emulate here, as well as developing our own models and making them available. We also need to make a living. There are unique opportunities I think for public/private partnerships and not-for-profit and for-profit entities to enter into relationships thatare mutually beneficial, socially acceptible and ecologically solvent. Our fish farming endeavor operates as a for profit agency that has seperate investors and top management. We make it happen on the ground and as a result a percentage of all profits (somewhat large) goes as a donation back to our foundation that we can then use to further develop other systems that may function as models. It also covers part of my salary indirectly. Iam presently working on three seperate biodiesel inititiatives in The Bahamas. Two are smal community scale (300 g/week) projects funded by local private investors with some assistance for which all benefits will be local. The third is somewhat larger and involved a commercial opportunity where the potential to build a 500,000 gpy plant exists. There is substantial benefit in both of these I think. Funding opportunites for small scale producers are limited, but by creating a partnership between my organization and a for-profit commercial enterprise, we can earmark funds coming in from that plant for out-island development of further biofuels industries. We are committed to making it work. It will not be us getting a lot of money from any of this, much like JtF gets nothing for the information they share. We get enough to continue to stay afloat (through a huge variety of activities) and make a living while working to acheive our mission in The Bahamas. I agree with Keith that there should be no ethical dilemna with making biodiesel for profit per se. It has more to do with how you choose to do it, and the extent to which that
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Hi Hakan Keith, I misunderstood, probably because I read one of the answers who assume that this was the question, before I answered. No problem Hakan. We have our site http://energysavingnow.com/ who deals with our quite unique research and experiences concerning buildings, plus some education on energy in general, information that can result in spectacular energy savings. What we have to communicate is free to use, otherwise the publication of it is meaningless. My understanding is that JFT has the same goals together with anyone who publish descriptions on how to make things on our sites. It is at the end almost always the case that someone makes money on this kind of information, it is the nature of it. The one who applies it will save money and others can sell methods or equipment that saves energy (make money). The only problem is that we now not only put in many hours of work on this, we also have to pay the costs. It is however the only way to try to make a difference that counts at the end. JTF and your work is a good example on this for biofuels. Even if I misunderstood the question, the answer covers in a way the original question also. If we at this stage wanted to make money, we would not publish our knowledge and instead continue as consulting engineers. We would only publish our impressive results from Sweden and then use our knowledge against remuneration. This way we would earn money, but our capacity would not be enough to make the slightest difference on the energy total energy situation. That's exactly right. For us it's much broader than energy issues, but the same applies. Others will use our information and get money. This is good, because it will rapidly further our cause and maybe make an important addition to solving the total problem. This is the nature of education and publication. I cannot say much more about it, without duplicating or direct copying of what you are saying. There's something about givers and takers - give to givers and take from takers, we used to say. Takers take and nothing else happens, nothing comes back, nothing spreads, nothing grows, nothing changes. Stony ground. That's what I want to establish. We can't stop people just taking and never adding anything in exchange, but I think it would help a lot to lay it out clearly just what sort of biofuels (and other) businesses we support and why (not just me, all of us), and what we don't support, and why. Mark's already laid the groundwork for the second bit: From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:11:41 -0800 Subject: [biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to snip But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. snip I;'ve found myself, several times in my life, riding the crest of the 'hot thing', a major trend, and I'm suddenly seeing the same patterns in the biodiesel world in the past few months as I've seen in several other arenas and finding interesting patterns emerging. It seems to me that just recently everyone is trying to figure out where everyone else fits in to the biodiesel picture as a resource. In berkeley me and a few other homebrewers and svo'ers have been calling this new trend Oil Fever. It seems like everyone and their mother are suddenly trying to get in on the game. We';ll see where it leads, I'm sure there'll be some good people like Todd Swearingen and more, sharing info and insights with beginners, and I;m also sure that we'll see loads of people like one or two I've recently met or corresponded with, who will do their damnedest to gather as much info from the homebrewers and try and make a dollar out of it without necessarily having anything to reciprocate the exchange, or coming from the homebrewer's world. We are still working often with the misconception that we all have the same goals- spreading the word about biodiesel at all costs, and industry will try
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Keith, It is so many who does a great job in sharing, Yourself, Girl Mark, Todd, MM and many others, that both are vocal and silent. This is your profit and it is huge and rewarding. It is the only way to get a movement in the right direction going. The atmosphere on the JTF list is constructive and positive, even during hard energy political. (and sometimes less to do with energy), are discussed. It is a very good group. I joined a few groups, to see if I found ones that I could recommend in my different sections. It is a large difference, except for a few where most members also are involved with JTF and that are specialized in a good way. I found out where some persons did go, when they left JTF, interesting experience of good and bad. Of course the information on JTF is going to be partially used for commercial production and it is nothing wrong with that. I do hope and belive that the JTF site and the discussion group will be able to rub of its generally good ethics and it is more effective than trying to set guide lines or some sort of rules. Setting a good example is often the most effective. Hakan At 21:13 14/12/2003, you wrote: Hi Hakan Keith, I misunderstood, probably because I read one of the answers who assume that this was the question, before I answered. No problem Hakan. We have our site http://energysavingnow.com/http://energysavingnow.com/ who deals with our quite unique research and experiences concerning buildings, plus some education on energy in general, information that can result in spectacular energy savings. What we have to communicate is free to use, otherwise the publication of it is meaningless. My understanding is that JFT has the same goals together with anyone who publish descriptions on how to make things on our sites. It is at the end almost always the case that someone makes money on this kind of information, it is the nature of it. The one who applies it will save money and others can sell methods or equipment that saves energy (make money). The only problem is that we now not only put in many hours of work on this, we also have to pay the costs. It is however the only way to try to make a difference that counts at the end. JTF and your work is a good example on this for biofuels. Even if I misunderstood the question, the answer covers in a way the original question also. If we at this stage wanted to make money, we would not publish our knowledge and instead continue as consulting engineers. We would only publish our impressive results from Sweden and then use our knowledge against remuneration. This way we would earn money, but our capacity would not be enough to make the slightest difference on the energy total energy situation. That's exactly right. For us it's much broader than energy issues, but the same applies. Others will use our information and get money. This is good, because it will rapidly further our cause and maybe make an important addition to solving the total problem. This is the nature of education and publication. I cannot say much more about it, without duplicating or direct copying of what you are saying. There's something about givers and takers - give to givers and take from takers, we used to say. Takers take and nothing else happens, nothing comes back, nothing spreads, nothing grows, nothing changes. Stony ground. That's what I want to establish. We can't stop people just taking and never adding anything in exchange, but I think it would help a lot to lay it out clearly just what sort of biofuels (and other) businesses we support and why (not just me, all of us), and what we don't support, and why. Mark's already laid the groundwork for the second bit: From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2002 23:11:41 -0800 Subject: [biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to snip But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
movement in the first place - to make a better world (I hope I don't get bashed here). Quite simply we need to rethink our design of industry. I think entrenpeurs should jump on opportunities to make money. We need that spark. But to do so in a way that deprives us of our very source of all wealth (eg human and natural capital) is simply foolhardy. We do it a lot. Scale is also important - too big and it gets difficult to maintain the ethical standards you desire (See Schumacher, Small is Beautiful). Keith has said that he started JtF knowing that the information exchanged there would be exchanged freely, with no profit (financial) to him or JtF - he did it anyway. I would suggest that if you intend to profit off of an industry that perhaps JtF helped you to conceive of or enact, that you do you best to ensure that your business is the kind that we need for our future - that it holds itsefl to the same rigorous standards of integrity, creativity and justice that JtF stands for (I hope I am not speaking out of place here). Whew, morning coffee buzz hasn't worn off and I hope this is intelligible, if long. Good luck! Jack p.s. Keith, if you measure profit in some of the same ways that I do (knowing you are making a steady and strong change for the better) then let your coffers be full - you are to be applauded and I thank you. ___ Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Institute 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
for profit per se. It has more to do with how you choose to do it, and the extent to which that business furthers the real goal that I think underlies the whole small scale biofuel movement in the first place - to make a better world (I hope I don't get bashed here). Quite simply we need to rethink our design of industry. I think entrenpeurs should jump on opportunities to make money. We need that spark. But to do so in a way that deprives us of our very source of all wealth (eg human and natural capital) is simply foolhardy. We do it a lot. Scale is also important - too big and it gets difficult to maintain the ethical standards you desire (See Schumacher, Small is Beautiful). Keith has said that he started JtF knowing that the information exchanged there would be exchanged freely, with no profit (financial) to him or JtF - he did it anyway. I would suggest that if you intend to profit off of an industry that perhaps JtF helped you to conceive of or enact, that you do you best to ensure that your business is the kind that we need for our future - that it holds itsefl to the same rigorous standards of integrity, creativity and justice that JtF stands for (I hope I am not speaking out of place here). Whew, morning coffee buzz hasn't worn off and I hope this is intelligible, if long. Good luck! Jack p.s. Keith, if you measure profit in some of the same ways that I do (knowing you are making a steady and strong change for the better) then let your coffers be full - you are to be applauded and I thank you. ___ Jack Kenworthy Sustainable Systems Director The Cape Eleuthera Institute 242-359-7625 ph. 954-252-2224 fax www.islandschool.org - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, December 11, 2003 2:36 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Commercial production Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well
RE: [biofuel] Commercial production
Since when has it been immoral to make a profit in this country from a legitimate enterprise? There are a lot of people that would prefer to run Bio but would not or will not make there own ever. I would suggest you look into our wonderful government regulations before you get to far in. Apparently it is quite costly to produce commercially. Check out this link for a start. http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/forsale.htm http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/forsale.htm Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. Office: 573-435-9628 Mobile: 281-682-4181 Fax: 573-435-1429 Hi Mark You miss the point. Nobody's proposing that it's immoral to make a profit from a legitimate enterprise in that or any other country. Have another look - it's about using other people's work to make a profit, a different matter. Also you've got it wrong over how difficult the government regulations make it for commercial biodiesel operations. I don't think you should be so quick to discourage people unless you're prepared to inform yourself a bit better than that. The website you reference is dated February 13, 2002, nearly two years ago. It's outdated, I think it's one-sided, it's certainly no longer accurate, and Tom Leue shouldn't still have it there. This is what Jim Caldwell of the EPA said at the time: He hasn't gotten registered yet, so he shouldn't have introduced this fuel to vehicles, Caldwell said, adding that Leue is still allowed to sell the fuel for non-road vehicles such as tractors. I wouldn't say we shut him down, Caldwell said, noting they've taken no enforcement steps. -- From EPA: Order shuts down biodiesel fuel manufacturer, AP http://www.spinninglobe.net/bioupdate3.htm When it came up we formed a separate closed discussion group with interested Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list members, including Tom Leue, and checked the whole thing out thoroughly. Tom was convinced, and I think he still is, that it was a conspiracy by Archer Daniels Midland against small biofuel operators, but there's no evidence for that and he was never able to offer any. Much more likely is that small producers simply fell beneath the National Biodiesel Board's radar screen: their definition of small-scale operators is those with total annual sales of less than $50 million. People producing Tom's 3,650 gallons a year simply weren't considered. The NBB was after getting their soy check-off dollars back that had paid for the Clean Air Act Health Effects Data studies for biodiesel, but they were breaking their own rules, small-scale operators were supposed to be exempt from paying the fees. Again, almost certainly mere neglect and inefficiency rather than enemy action. Meanwhile other list members at the Biofuels-biz list set to work checking the rules and regulations and got in contact with the EPA and other people. Complicated stuff concerning fuel definitions and categorisations and much besides, but eventually the EPA agreed that, according to their own rules and definitions in fact, in order to register as on-road fuel producers small producers were indeed not required to pay for access to the Health Effects Data, nor did they have to join the NBB and pay the NBB's various fees and taxes - BUT they had to produce evidence that the fuel they produced met the ASTM D-6751 quality specifications. Also there was the different matter of fuel taxes, both federal and state. So, just as long as you can produce ASTM D-6751 spec fuel and you register, there's nothing to stop you. Members here are currently going through that process, having already passed the ASTM tests (not a problem), others are preparing to do the same. Rather a different story. At the time, Tom Leue had not passed the ASTM tests and was thus an unregistered fuel producer selling fuel of unknown quality for on-road use. He'd been doing so for some time, and was, I suppose, lucky not to have faced retroactive fines. Tom eventually submitted his fuel for ASTM testing a few months back, and failed. He's said a couple of times that he only failed on one count, but the fact is he failed, and others here have passed easily. More recently Tom had a fire accident and his whole biodiesel operation was destroyed, and he was slightly injured, very sad news - which has, however, served to focus attention on safety measures and safe procedures. Tom's set-up was not a good example. This, as one instance, appeared on another list: come on , you guys- not only is Tickell's book almost entirely inaccurate for homebrew (and I believe for other non-DIY info as well), but someone just blew themselves up following the sort of practices it advocates (or burned his shed down in an explosion and got burned in the process using the sort of equipment recommended in the book) . Plus Tickell has been told for years that a bunch of his info is incorrect but has kept putting out editions of the book that `change... nothing... except for the
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
William (Billy-O), My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical lines by producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? There's nothing wrong with making money..., only how you make it and what you do with it. Far less of an ethical dilemma to sell to an owner of a bus fleet than to sell to a logger who clear cuts..., unless of course you can scalp the clear cutter or indiscrimnant developer for a higher margin than the bus owner or the organic farmer..., which I personally see no unethical measure in, especially in light of the counter damage that they conduct. Todd Swearingen Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan At 19:45 09/12/2003, you wrote: Keith- First, I must take my hat off to you and everyone else involved in the project and website. The wealth of information is amazing and I hope that this information becomes common knowledge. Since becoming interested in biofuels I find myself constantly dreaming of a United States freed from the governmental control of the fossil fuel industry. As I have begun my own personal journey to free myself from fossil fuels (I recently purchased a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel specifically to run on biodiesel) I have been approached by a friend who would like to go into business producing biodiesel. My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical lines by producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? Although we are a processor and system that is in many ways unique from the processors that are described on this site and others that have links on this site, most all of the inspiration has come from this site. The basic chemical process will also most likely be similar to the recipes given by Aleks Kac and Joshua Tickell although we plan on using a filtering process to refine the biodiesel to commercial specs as opposed to washing it. My original goal is still to produce biodiesel for personal use, but if our ideas end up working as well as we think they will, I plan on becoming and entrepreneur and do my part to make biodiesel a mainstream option for the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. Thank you for your time and wonderful work billyO Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Commercial production
Since when has it been immoral to make a profit in this country from a legitimate enterprise? There are a lot of people that would prefer to run Bio but would not or will not make there own ever. I would suggest you look into our wonderful government regulations before you get to far in. Apparently it is quite costly to produce commercially. Check out this link for a start. http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/forsale.htm http://www.yellowbiodiesel.com/forsale.htm Mark McElvy AccuBak Data Systems, Inc. Office: 573-435-9628 Mobile: 281-682-4181 Fax: 573-435-1429 At 19:45 09/12/2003, you wrote: Keith- First, I must take my hat off to you and everyone else involved in the project and website. The wealth of information is amazing and I hope that this information becomes common knowledge. Since becoming interested in biofuels I find myself constantly dreaming of a United States freed from the governmental control of the fossil fuel industry. As I have begun my own personal journey to free myself from fossil fuels (I recently purchased a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel specifically to run on biodiesel) I have been approached by a friend who would like to go into business producing biodiesel. My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical lines by producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? Although we are a processor and system that is in many ways unique from the processors that are described on this site and others that have links on this site, most all of the inspiration has come from this site. The basic chemical process will also most likely be similar to the recipes given by Aleks Kac and Joshua Tickell although we plan on using a filtering process to refine the biodiesel to commercial specs as opposed to washing it. My original goal is still to produce biodiesel for personal use, but if our ideas end up working as well as we think they will, I plan on becoming and entrepreneur and do my part to make biodiesel a mainstream option for the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. Thank you for your time and wonderful work billyO Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/SIG=12cem8tq7/M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=egroup web/S=1705083269:HM/EXP=1071228802/A=1853618/R=0/*http:/www.netflix.com/Defa ult?mqso=60178338partid=4116730 click here http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=267637.4116730.5333196.1261774/D=egroupmai l/S=:HM/A=1853618/rand=335861528 Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
on 12/10/03 1:23 PM, J B at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is an interesting question. I think that as long the business is cooperatively owned, and you give information to resources about making home-biodiesel to individuals who would like to make it. It doesn't seem the least bit unethical to make biodiesel say for commercial buses or city buses or whatever for a profit. Hi J B How could there be anything intrinsically wrong with making biodiesel for profit? Or indeed with commercialism? Cooperatives aren't the only ethical way to do business, nor absolute proof against unethical behaviour (though it helps). I wouldn't even agree with the proviso to make resources available to home-brewers. You could do all of those things and still be unethical, or do none of them and still be ethical. Anyway, that's not what William's asking. Have another look - it's copied below. It's always interesting to me when someone asks someone else what's ethical. Not that you should ever hesitate, of course -- we're all in this together. But the answers you get inevitably tell you more about the OTHER person's situation than they they do about your OWN. I think if you have to ask the question, it suggests that you need to search your own soul a bit more, with or without external inputs. -K Ken, the fact that William's asking ethical questions is sure proof that his soul has not gone unsearched. I think you do have to ask questions, because there aren't any real answers - there are no ethical certainties. Being ethical is to be uncertain. If getting another person's point of view might shed a little more light, it's definitely worth trying. People are generally good-hearted and have good intentions, but most people can't take too much uncertainty. So it's interesting how, though William talked of ethics and didn't mention morals or morality, several of the responses are couched in moral terms. The difference between ethics and morals is that being moral does not require any soul-searching. It often has more to do with avoiding blame than really doing the right thing. All you have to do is follow the rules. Would that doing the right thing were that simple. This puts it rather clearly: Ethical behavior may be defined as acting after thinking about what would produce the greatest good for the greatest number effected. Morals are a codification of prior ethical decisions, simplified into easy-to-grasp rules. Morals exist because most people are very uncomfortable with the uncertainties of attempting to figure out what the right course of action might be, and most are reluctant to take responsibility for having made mistakes. Being ethical means making decisions based on inadeqeuate data and acting anyway. Ethical actions frequently work out badly; the actor has no one to blame for the results but themselves. Acting ethically while still desiring certainties means being uncomfortable. Moral acts also often work out badly. The apparent advantage to being moral is that when a moral act works out badly no one is to blame because the actor did what was supposed to be done. Being moral is comfortable because a moral person always knows what should be done, did it and is not to blame for the outcomes. (Steve Solomon) Or: The difference between a moral man and a man of honor is that the latter regrets a discreditable act, even when it has worked and he has not been caught. H. L. Mencken (1880 - 1956), 'Prejudices: Fourth Series,' 1924 In business issues: Market forces have no intrinsically moral direction, which is why, before he wrote The Wealth of Nations, Adam Smith wrote The Theory of Moral Sentiments. Ethics should precede economics. But it doesn't have to. And it's not inevitable that it will. We know this because we've seen the results of capitalism without conscience: the pollution of the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the food we eat; the endangerment of workers; and the sales of dangerous products -- from cars to toys to drugs. All in pursuit of greater and greater profits. -- From: Capitalism Without Conscience: It's Time For American Business To Clean Up Its Act, Arianna Huffington, Jul 25 2002 http://www.tompaine.com/feature.cfm/ID/6062 And this, which I've quoted before: Small-scale capitalism works out fine, but as scale increases the departure from real capitalism becomes more pronounced---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers. - Tvo Many/most/all of us see qualitative as well as quantitative issues with biodiesel, that it has strong moral-ethical aspects. We don't want biodiesel or biofuels to become mere commodities flogged via capitalism without conscience for the sake of the bottom line and to hell with everything else. All thrown into stark relief by comparison with the
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive, though they might think they do, and that those who know what it means to cast your bread upon the waters do thrive, and not only that but it spreads. Indeed there are those here (the majority?) who understand the meaning of collaboration and act accordingly. We have some fine examples of entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it works both ways, not just one-way. Bill Clark's excellent project comes to mind, Jack Kenworthy at the Island School, quite a few others. I'd like to hear their views on these issues. And Todd's, who has a clear vision of this. Also Mark, who most eloquently outlined the downside in her Homebrewer on a soapbox post: http://archive.nnytech.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/18491/ In brief, what sort of small biofuels business do we support, and what sort do we not support? The excellent information developed collaboratively by list members and available to all in the archives and at Journey to Forever is or isn't available for commercial use, and if it is, under what conditions? Not that we can stop anyone using it, it's there for the taking, the door's wide open, but some clear-cut language in a sign on the door wouldn't go amiss. We all want to see biofuels replacing fossil fuels, but we've also come to realise that there are good ways and bad ways of doing it. Many of us don't see the NBB and Big Soy eg as our friends in any way - their aims are not our aims, often quite the opposite. Some of us don't see so-called small producers as necessarily any better than big ones (and not all big ones are the same either). We have a lot of history to go on now, we've covered most of this ground in detail, and mostly via events, developments, problems that had to be solved, barriers that had to be removed - not just talk. We should be able to distill quite a clear picture out of it
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
Keith, I misunderstood, probably because I read one of the answers who assume that this was the question, before I answered. We have our site http://energysavingnow.com/ who deals with our quite unique research and experiences concerning buildings, plus some education on energy in general, information that can result in spectacular energy savings. What we have to communicate is free to use, otherwise the publication of it is meaningless. My understanding is that JFT has the same goals together with anyone who publish descriptions on how to make things on our sites. It is at the end almost always the case that someone makes money on this kind of information, it is the nature of it. The one who applies it will save money and others can sell methods or equipment that saves energy (make money). The only problem is that we now not only put in many hours of work on this, we also have to pay the costs. It is however the only way to try to make a difference that counts at the end. JTF and your work is a good example on this for biofuels. Even if I misunderstood the question, the answer covers in a way the original question also. If we at this stage wanted to make money, we would not publish our knowledge and instead continue as consulting engineers. We would only publish our impressive results from Sweden and then use our knowledge against remuneration. This way we would earn money, but our capacity would not be enough to make the slightest difference on the energy total energy situation. Others will use our information and get money. This is good, because it will rapidly further our cause and maybe make an important addition to solving the total problem. This is the nature of education and publication. I cannot say much more about it, without duplicating or direct copying of what you are saying. Hakan At 20:36 11/12/2003, you wrote: Hi Hakan If you can sell your biodiesel and make a profit that is acceptable for you, please sell it. The morality does not rest with who is using it, it is rather that someone is prepared to use it. It is not like you are giving someone an advantage or a favor. It is that someone has moral enough that buy it, often despite a higher price, and use it for the to support future generations. It is a huge task to change the fossil habits and every little step is important. Promote and make a good business out of diversified biofuel production and do not attempt to make it an honor for your clients to buy from you. This way you are acting in a moral way and every gallon sold, substitute the use of a gallon of fossil fuel. Your and other small producers success is a moral thing in itself. Good luck and go out and get the totally immoral energy corporations! Hakan But this isn't really what William was asking. The nub of it's near the end: the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. He's worried about the rights and wrongs of taking and using for commercial gain information freely given at Journey to Forever, a lot of which comes from here, the Biofuel list - very many people have given their time and efforts to developing the biodiesel information and technology now available to anybody. Would it be right for a business just to take it over, put their name on it and get rich off it? Thor said this of the Biofuel list a while back: I just want to say how important what you all are doing here is. Closed-system fuel production, on a local or small regional scale, tied to local resources, using accessible technologies, and dependent on entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange - it's AWESOME. Keep up the good work everyone, before the planet fries. ... entrepreneurial innovation combined with open-source information exchange... But how exactly does that work? There are people here, list members, who're just here for what they can get. Some of them are using the list, the list members and list resources as a free consultancy service - they take what they want, even raise discussions on it, and put it to their own use. This might have nothing to do with what Thor said and what we're all on about here - small-scale, localised, distributed biofuels production, truly sustainable, renewable energy production with a future to it. Some of them have big plans for high-production, centralised plants and would normally be paying megabucks to consultancies for the kind of information they get here for nothing. What's most noticeable is that they PUT NOTHING BACK IN. Some even talk of patents. I suppose they think we're a bunch of mugs. We know a lot of people do that with the information at Journey to Forever as well - we get quite seriously ripped off. Well, we knew that would happen when we started it but decided to do it anyway. Our perhaps idealistic idea of it is that the rip-off merchants don't thrive,
RE: [biofuel] Commercial production
That is an interesting question. I think that as long the business is cooperatively owned, and you give information to resources about making home-biodiesel to individuals who would like to make it. It doesn't seem the least bit unethical to make biodiesel say for commercial buses or city buses or whatever for a profit. That is what makes ecological modernization work - waste products can be obtained for little to no cost and transformed into saleable products. Please keep us posted about your proposed business venture. Justin from Flagstaff From: William E Ottaviani, MS, PT [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Commercial production Date: Tue, 9 Dec 2003 10:45:53 -0800 Keith- First, I must take my hat off to you and everyone else involved in the project and website. The wealth of information is amazing and I hope that this information becomes common knowledge. Since becoming interested in biofuels I find myself constantly dreaming of a United States freed from the governmental control of the fossil fuel industry. As I have begun my own personal journey to free myself from fossil fuels (I recently purchased a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel specifically to run on biodiesel) I have been approached by a friend who would like to go into business producing biodiesel. My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical lines by producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? Although we are a processor and system that is in many ways unique from the processors that are described on this site and others that have links on this site, most all of the inspiration has come from this site. The basic chemical process will also most likely be similar to the recipes given by Aleks Kac and Joshua Tickell although we plan on using a filtering process to refine the biodiesel to commercial specs as opposed to washing it. My original goal is still to produce biodiesel for personal use, but if our ideas end up working as well as we think they will, I plan on becoming and entrepreneur and do my part to make biodiesel a mainstream option for the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. Thank you for your time and wonderful work billyO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Commercial production
on 12/10/03 1:23 PM, J B at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: That is an interesting question. I think that as long the business is cooperatively owned, and you give information to resources about making home-biodiesel to individuals who would like to make it. It doesn't seem the least bit unethical to make biodiesel say for commercial buses or city buses or whatever for a profit. It's always interesting to me when someone asks someone else what's ethical. Not that you should ever hesitate, of course -- we're all in this together. But the answers you get inevitably tell you more about the OTHER person's situation than they they do about your OWN. I think if you have to ask the question, it suggests that you need to search your own soul a bit more, with or without external inputs. -K Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Commercial production
Keith- First, I must take my hat off to you and everyone else involved in the project and website. The wealth of information is amazing and I hope that this information becomes common knowledge. Since becoming interested in biofuels I find myself constantly dreaming of a United States freed from the governmental control of the fossil fuel industry. As I have begun my own personal journey to free myself from fossil fuels (I recently purchased a 3/4 ton Dodge diesel specifically to run on biodiesel) I have been approached by a friend who would like to go into business producing biodiesel. My question is: Are (or rather, Would) we be crossing ethical lines by producing biodiesel commercially (read: for profit)? Although we are a processor and system that is in many ways unique from the processors that are described on this site and others that have links on this site, most all of the inspiration has come from this site. The basic chemical process will also most likely be similar to the recipes given by Aleks Kac and Joshua Tickell although we plan on using a filtering process to refine the biodiesel to commercial specs as opposed to washing it. My original goal is still to produce biodiesel for personal use, but if our ideas end up working as well as we think they will, I plan on becoming and entrepreneur and do my part to make biodiesel a mainstream option for the general public. I am afraid, however, that I may upset some by turning a profit using methods and information (although modified) by others. Thank you for your time and wonderful work billyO [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
