Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
the point of this "heat exchanger" is to keep the fuel hot from the back of the car all the way to the front. at no time is the fuel exposed to cold air, until it hits the solenoid, 1' from the injector pump. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > Greg, > Havnt followed you here. Are you talking about what Steve has done > or what I have suggested with the shotgun heat exchanger. You mentioned a > hose within a hose using insulated radiator hose. If you are talking about > this type of setup which is the most basic heat exchanger with the copper > tube inside the rubber hose with a tee either end it will work reasonably > satisfactorily but nowhere as quick or as fast as a shotgun heat exchanger. > These are basically the same principle multiplied a number of times so every > tube has a full 360 degree contact with the heating fluid and conduction is > very rapid. If the heat source of the heating fluid is hot enough it is > quite often possible to have cold fluid entering at one end and emerging > close to the initial temperature of the heating fluid in a very short > length. > B.r., David > - Original Message - > From: Greg Yohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 2:40 PM > Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > I know it sounds simple, but copper fittings are soldered together and > then > > the copper tubing is soldered in place forcing the coolant out the side > "T" > > fitting. Its much better than compression fittings and copper heats the > oil > > better than plastic tubing in transit to the fuel injectors. Hey, its so > > easy that I can do it > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Dave, the pics will explain. we have 2 15' pieces of insulated rubber hose, going from the front of the car, to the back. there is a soldered T on each end, that brings the 3/8 copper fuel line out. This line runs inside both rubber hoses, front to back. at the front of the car, one line taps the lower radiator hose, one taps the upper, with T's at the back, a 3/8 copper coil connects the two coolant lines inside the insulated chest, while the 2 fuel lines enter the chest, and sit on the bottom. at the front, the fuel lines connect to the 6 port solenoid, which then go to the filter, and then the pump/injector distribution block. there is a 12vdc fuel heater, and a 120vac coolant heater we need to integrate. It's Greg's car, I'm the consultant ;-) Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 11:24 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > Greg, > Havnt followed you here. Are you talking about what Steve has done > or what I have suggested with the shotgun heat exchanger. You mentioned a > hose within a hose using insulated radiator hose. If you are talking about > this type of setup which is the most basic heat exchanger with the copper > tube inside the rubber hose with a tee either end it will work reasonably > satisfactorily but nowhere as quick or as fast as a shotgun heat exchanger. > These are basically the same principle multiplied a number of times so every > tube has a full 360 degree contact with the heating fluid and conduction is > very rapid. If the heat source of the heating fluid is hot enough it is > quite often possible to have cold fluid entering at one end and emerging > close to the initial temperature of the heating fluid in a very short > length. > B.r., David > - Original Message - > From: Greg Yohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 2:40 PM > Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > I know it sounds simple, but copper fittings are soldered together and > then > > the copper tubing is soldered in place forcing the coolant out the side > "T" > > fitting. Its much better than compression fittings and copper heats the > oil > > better than plastic tubing in transit to the fuel injectors. Hey, its so > > easy that I can do it > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
the rubber hose is insulated, and since it's 3/8" copper inside a 3/4" hose, there is room for the fluid to flow around the inside pipe. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > Thanks Greg, > Thats what I thought he was talking about. The other > though more difficult initially would be much better and ensure better > combustion. Heat exchangers if made properly especially as in the shotgun > configuration I am talking about are extremely efficient devices. When > matched with electronic controls and simple solenoid and needle valves they > can give you extremely precise control (Not called for in this simple setup > but well worth bearing in mind for other applications). In this case he > could use the heat exchanger to raise the temperature further before > injection and combustion, using the cooling water once it has been through > the heat exchanger to heat and liquify the oil before it is returned to the > radiator. > What keeps the copper tube in the centre of the hose or is this spirally > wound? > B.r., David > > - Original Message - > From: Greg Yohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 12:33 PM > Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > David: > > > > Steve is talking about 15 feet. Its a hose-within-a-hose using insulated > > radiator hose and copper tubing. > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
film went to developer today, will scan this evening. Greg, can you take additional pics till I get back to the project? Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "Greg Yohn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 8:33 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > David: > > Steve is talking about 15 feet. Its a hose-within-a-hose using insulated > radiator hose and copper tubing. > > Greg Yohn > -Original Message- > From: David Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:27 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > Steve do you mean 15 inch or 15 feet? Someone recently mentioned shotgun > heat exchangers on this n.g or the distillers n.g. and this is an ideal > situation for its application I imagine. Would be easy enough to rig one > of > these up between the motor and the engine in place of the return hose I > imagine. In this case you might have to use a higher temperature actauated > thermostat but should work very well I thought. Other alternative is to > tap > into the system before the thermostat and return it just before it. In > this > case you may then need to insulate the heat exchanger body especially for > winter driving as if the heat exchanger takes too much heat out of the > water > the thermostat may close shutting your water flow off. > B.r., David > > - Original Message - > From: steve spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:21 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > stay tuned for the pics of the vw jetta that Greg Yohn and I are > converting > > to veggie oil. I designed and built the 15' long heat exchanger > yesterday, > > Greg is designing the heated tank this weekend. > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
15 feet each way we are tapping the top and bottom radiator hoses, and sending coolant to the back of the car down a 3/4" rubber hose, with 3/8" copper fuel line in the center. total of 30' of heated fuel line, plus a coil of 3/8 copper in the insulated ice chest being used as an oil tank. photo's forthcoming. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:26 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > Steve do you mean 15 inch or 15 feet? Someone recently mentioned shotgun > heat exchangers on this n.g or the distillers n.g. and this is an ideal > situation for its application I imagine. Would be easy enough to rig one of > these up between the motor and the engine in place of the return hose I > imagine. In this case you might have to use a higher temperature actauated > thermostat but should work very well I thought. Other alternative is to tap > into the system before the thermostat and return it just before it. In this > case you may then need to insulate the heat exchanger body especially for > winter driving as if the heat exchanger takes too much heat out of the water > the thermostat may close shutting your water flow off. > B.r., David > > - Original Message - > From: steve spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:21 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > stay tuned for the pics of the vw jetta that Greg Yohn and I are > converting > > to veggie oil. I designed and built the 15' long heat exchanger yesterday, > > Greg is designing the heated tank this weekend. > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>You are right of course, the trick is in knowing what to teach. I'm not
>convinced that this generation has the mechanism or even the will to address
>wealth distribution.
I'm far from convinced that they don't.
>That mankind will persist I have no real doubt, the
>issue then becomes the continued existence of species other than the slave
>species when the population crashes (in human terms depressive economic
>phenomena) come.
? You're not going to pull a Jay Hanson on us are you? FYI, domestic
varieties of both crops and livestock are threatened and being eroded
in the same way as wild species.
>What I'm hearing is that specialist groups are working on various problems
>in isolation. This is confusing to say the least, particularly for
>politicians, and rather dangerous since disparate groups that are
>essentially concerned with Eco-sustainability can end up at cross purposes.
>E.g. Sierra Club and alternative fuels. There are enough people concerned
>with the issue to make a difference. It is past time they worked together.
I see massive and growing evidence of their working together. The so
called "anti-globalisation" campaigns are only the most visible, but
may not even be the most significant. I say "so-called" because
they're not really anti-globalisation. See "The wreckers who trade in
misery":
http://journeytoforever.org/fyi_previous.html#2502
Aren't you impressed that the labour groups and the environment
groups are working together as one in these campaigns? Along with
Third World small farmers groups, etc etc etc.?
To confuse the likes of the Sierra Club ("Club Sierra") with the very
large numbers of disparate groups and individuals working on
eco-sustainability, very often to excellent effect, is a bit like
mistaking mega-corporations like Monsanto or BP-Amoco for capitalism,
failing to see the huge numbers of small and medium-sized businesses
and enterprises which are the real backbone of all our economies. To
quote Steve Troy of Jade Mountain once again: "In the Industrial
World small businesses account for more technological advances in
their areas of expertise than government supported researchers or
research departments in massive corporations."
>I
>suspect that after ES2002 we may be a step closer to that, we were after
>Rio-two steps forward and one back is still a gain.
Rio in itself was next to useless. I was supposed to take my group
there but didn't bother, and didn't regret it. It was supposed to
produce a solid and binding agreement on climate change and
greenhouse gas emissions, but the preceding series of climate-change
talks had failed to reach agreement. So Rio was just a talking shop,
no real commitments, nothing binding - and a nice platform for world
leaders to paint themselves green. Nothing much would have come of it
had not a great many much smaller groups, especially non-government
groups, picked up on Agenda 21 (The Rio Declaration on Environment
and Development) and made something of it. At least, at last, for the
first time, Rio brought acknowledgement that environment and
development are inter-dependent, the same subject - The United
Nations Conference on Environment and Development. But even that was
spoiled - "they" went and changed it to "The Earth Summit".
http://www.igc.apc.org/habitat/agenda21/
Agenda 21 and other UNCED Agreements
So, again, re ES2002, what will matter is what the small guys make of it.
>I for one am convinced that we will not save the world unless we save
>humanity at the same time.
There are indeed distinct signs of ailment, but no need to start
writing the obits yet. Especially not for the world, we're not that
important. Termites are more important than we are, so are very many
species of bacteria. Not that that's a very sensible way to look at
it, but it does add some perspective. "'For are ye not greater than
many sparrows?' The answer is no." R.H. Blyth
Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
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To unsubscribe, send an email to:
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Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
You are right of course, the trick is in knowing what to teach. I'm not convinced that this generation has the mechanism or even the will to address wealth distribution. That mankind will persist I have no real doubt, the issue then becomes the continued existence of species other than the slave species when the population crashes (in human terms depressive economic phenomena) come. What I'm hearing is that specialist groups are working on various problems in isolation. This is confusing to say the least, particularly for politicians, and rather dangerous since disparate groups that are essentially concerned with Eco-sustainability can end up at cross purposes. E.g. Sierra Club and alternative fuels. There are enough people concerned with the issue to make a difference. It is past time they worked together. I suspect that after ES2002 we may be a step closer to that, we were after Rio-two steps forward and one back is still a gain. I for one am convinced that we will not save the world unless we save humanity at the same time. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Greg, Havnt followed you here. Are you talking about what Steve has done or what I have suggested with the shotgun heat exchanger. You mentioned a hose within a hose using insulated radiator hose. If you are talking about this type of setup which is the most basic heat exchanger with the copper tube inside the rubber hose with a tee either end it will work reasonably satisfactorily but nowhere as quick or as fast as a shotgun heat exchanger. These are basically the same principle multiplied a number of times so every tube has a full 360 degree contact with the heating fluid and conduction is very rapid. If the heat source of the heating fluid is hot enough it is quite often possible to have cold fluid entering at one end and emerging close to the initial temperature of the heating fluid in a very short length. B.r., David - Original Message - From: Greg Yohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 2:40 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > I know it sounds simple, but copper fittings are soldered together and then > the copper tubing is soldered in place forcing the coolant out the side "T" > fitting. Its much better than compression fittings and copper heats the oil > better than plastic tubing in transit to the fuel injectors. Hey, its so > easy that I can do it Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
I know it sounds simple, but copper fittings are soldered together and then the copper tubing is soldered in place forcing the coolant out the side "T" fitting. Its much better than compression fittings and copper heats the oil better than plastic tubing in transit to the fuel injectors. Hey, its so easy that I can do it Greg -Original Message- From: David Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 9:16 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 What keeps the copper tube in the centre of the hose or is this spirally wound? B.r., David - Original Message - From: Greg Yohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > David: > > Steve is talking about 15 feet. Its a hose-within-a-hose using insulated > radiator hose and copper tubing. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Thanks Greg, Thats what I thought he was talking about. The other though more difficult initially would be much better and ensure better combustion. Heat exchangers if made properly especially as in the shotgun configuration I am talking about are extremely efficient devices. When matched with electronic controls and simple solenoid and needle valves they can give you extremely precise control (Not called for in this simple setup but well worth bearing in mind for other applications). In this case he could use the heat exchanger to raise the temperature further before injection and combustion, using the cooling water once it has been through the heat exchanger to heat and liquify the oil before it is returned to the radiator. What keeps the copper tube in the centre of the hose or is this spirally wound? B.r., David - Original Message - From: Greg Yohn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 12:33 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > David: > > Steve is talking about 15 feet. Its a hose-within-a-hose using insulated > radiator hose and copper tubing. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
David: Steve is talking about 15 feet. Its a hose-within-a-hose using insulated radiator hose and copper tubing. Greg Yohn -Original Message- From: David Reid [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 7:27 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 Steve do you mean 15 inch or 15 feet? Someone recently mentioned shotgun heat exchangers on this n.g or the distillers n.g. and this is an ideal situation for its application I imagine. Would be easy enough to rig one of these up between the motor and the engine in place of the return hose I imagine. In this case you might have to use a higher temperature actauated thermostat but should work very well I thought. Other alternative is to tap into the system before the thermostat and return it just before it. In this case you may then need to insulate the heat exchanger body especially for winter driving as if the heat exchanger takes too much heat out of the water the thermostat may close shutting your water flow off. B.r., David - Original Message - From: steve spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > stay tuned for the pics of the vw jetta that Greg Yohn and I are converting > to veggie oil. I designed and built the 15' long heat exchanger yesterday, > Greg is designing the heated tank this weekend. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Steve do you mean 15 inch or 15 feet? Someone recently mentioned shotgun heat exchangers on this n.g or the distillers n.g. and this is an ideal situation for its application I imagine. Would be easy enough to rig one of these up between the motor and the engine in place of the return hose I imagine. In this case you might have to use a higher temperature actauated thermostat but should work very well I thought. Other alternative is to tap into the system before the thermostat and return it just before it. In this case you may then need to insulate the heat exchanger body especially for winter driving as if the heat exchanger takes too much heat out of the water the thermostat may close shutting your water flow off. B.r., David - Original Message - From: steve spence <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2001 1:21 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > stay tuned for the pics of the vw jetta that Greg Yohn and I are converting > to veggie oil. I designed and built the 15' long heat exchanger yesterday, > Greg is designing the heated tank this weekend. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
"Gary and Jos Kimlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >Earth Summit 2002 should be interesting if, as I have suggested, some NGO's >in developed countries have "polarised" the Rio Declaration by concentrating >on Cleaning the environment without attempting to better distribute wealth >and eliminate poverty. I see this as too much like the Feudal system that >existed when the aristocracy had vast and pristine Forests and estates while >the peasantry starved and am therefore suspicious of the NGO's. In OZ every >school kid has environmentalism shoved down their necks every day, I want >the social and economic stuff there to balance that. If we succeeded in that >I feel that the next few generations would automatically work towards a >solution. I think you've still got some more figuring to do, Harry. Eg, other, just as big, NGOs in developed countries focus their efforts on poverty and wealth redistribution, tending to see environmental issues as at least as much a symptom as a cause. The fuedal landholding patterns you talk of still exist in many parts of the world. This generation is finding solutions, not just working towards them, and indeed there's no time for them to drag their feet. Add (? I think it's there) the social and economic stuff by all means, but please make sure it's the right stuff first, not just a one-sided view. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
stay tuned for the pics of the vw jetta that Greg Yohn and I are converting to veggie oil. I designed and built the 15' long heat exchanger yesterday, Greg is designing the heated tank this weekend. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, June 01, 2001 6:35 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > - Original Message - > From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 2:18 AM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > >Hanns, > > > The only way you can change things is to get out and do them. > If > > >you wait for others you will still be sitting there talking about it in > 10 > > >years time. The problem is not that people think differently to you but > that > > >most of them dont think fullstop. I am often reminded of an old teeshirt > > >saying which use to say "We are not Yes men we say No when the boss > does". > > >So typically true of most of us. Go to it and you will have a vastly > greater > > >affect than anyone philosophying about it. > > >B.r., David > > > > "Seek and ye shall find", David - a low opinion of people and > > humanity in general tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course > > there's plenty of evidence of it, but there's plenty of the opposite > > evidence too, and you don't have to be a Pollyanna to see it, nor is > > there any need for rose-tinted specs. I've investigated and reported > > on and experienced the darknesses and horrors and blights for too > > long ever to be unaware of them, it's what propels me, but I > > nonetheless see every reason for optimism, and I have great faith in > > the good sense of ordinary people. > ** Couldnt agree more. I dont have a low opinion of people but do have a > very heavy healthy cynical attitude that is based on the recognition that > most people are not thinkers. Given the opportunity and challenge most > people rise to it and if listened to the solutions they provide or come up > with are often a lot better than those put forward by the so called experts > and those appointed to the job. > > > And indeed, go to it, yes, but, philosophising or not, please be sure > > of what you're doing first, especially in Third World issues - people > > with lots of energy and endless goodwill who just want to help can > > cause a lot of damage. It's fraught with pitfalls, of a special type: > > you make the mistakes, others suffer for it later after you've gone > > home feeling good about yourself because you've "helped" them. Maybe > > what kind of effect is more important than how great it might be. > > These are ecological matters, and the main (only) rule of ecology is > > that everything is connected to everything else - it needs a bit > > better than just good intentions. > ** Also couldnt agree more. The worst of the lot seems to be religious > evangelism. Having spent 7 years of my life on the road travelling and > working in all sorts of places around the world I am am only too aware of > what damage good intentioned organizations can cause. Most of the good I > have seen is done by small organizations and individuals who have seen the > need, risen to the need, got off their butts, rolled up their shirt sleeves, > and got stuck in. In my experience sitting around and pontificating about > things without actual practical involvement very often achieves very little. > If for example you take the case of biodiesel in this group the guys who are > achieving something in this group and making it possible for others are the > people like Aleks Kac with a better process, Simon Wells with a simple > mixer, and Ian with a resonable small plant layout. Along with these are all > the others who are actively participating and people like yourself and > Steve who are actively participating in the exchange of ideas. An idea by > itself is all it is and all it remains. When married or linked to practical > application and doing something concrete is created. The computer like tv is > one of the best educational and most useful tools ever created but like tv > put in the wrong hands has led to more and more centralised control and one > of the mo
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Earth Summit 2002 should be interesting if, as I have suggested, some NGO's in developed countries have "polarised" the Rio Declaration by concentrating on Cleaning the environment without attempting to better distribute wealth and eliminate poverty. I see this as too much like the Feudal system that existed when the aristocracy had vast and pristine Forests and estates while the peasantry starved and am therefore suspicious of the NGO's. In OZ every school kid has environmentalism shoved down their necks every day, I want the social and economic stuff there to balance that. If we succeeded in that I feel that the next few generations would automatically work towards a solution. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2001 2:18 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > >Hanns, > > The only way you can change things is to get out and do them. If > >you wait for others you will still be sitting there talking about it in 10 > >years time. The problem is not that people think differently to you but that > >most of them dont think fullstop. I am often reminded of an old teeshirt > >saying which use to say "We are not Yes men we say No when the boss does". > >So typically true of most of us. Go to it and you will have a vastly greater > >affect than anyone philosophying about it. > >B.r., David > > "Seek and ye shall find", David - a low opinion of people and > humanity in general tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course > there's plenty of evidence of it, but there's plenty of the opposite > evidence too, and you don't have to be a Pollyanna to see it, nor is > there any need for rose-tinted specs. I've investigated and reported > on and experienced the darknesses and horrors and blights for too > long ever to be unaware of them, it's what propels me, but I > nonetheless see every reason for optimism, and I have great faith in > the good sense of ordinary people. ** Couldnt agree more. I dont have a low opinion of people but do have a very heavy healthy cynical attitude that is based on the recognition that most people are not thinkers. Given the opportunity and challenge most people rise to it and if listened to the solutions they provide or come up with are often a lot better than those put forward by the so called experts and those appointed to the job. > And indeed, go to it, yes, but, philosophising or not, please be sure > of what you're doing first, especially in Third World issues - people > with lots of energy and endless goodwill who just want to help can > cause a lot of damage. It's fraught with pitfalls, of a special type: > you make the mistakes, others suffer for it later after you've gone > home feeling good about yourself because you've "helped" them. Maybe > what kind of effect is more important than how great it might be. > These are ecological matters, and the main (only) rule of ecology is > that everything is connected to everything else - it needs a bit > better than just good intentions. ** Also couldnt agree more. The worst of the lot seems to be religious evangelism. Having spent 7 years of my life on the road travelling and working in all sorts of places around the world I am am only too aware of what damage good intentioned organizations can cause. Most of the good I have seen is done by small organizations and individuals who have seen the need, risen to the need, got off their butts, rolled up their shirt sleeves, and got stuck in. In my experience sitting around and pontificating about things without actual practical involvement very often achieves very little. If for example you take the case of biodiesel in this group the guys who are achieving something in this group and making it possible for others are the people like Aleks Kac with a better process, Simon Wells with a simple mixer, and Ian with a resonable small plant layout. Along with these are all the others who are actively participating and people like yourself and Steve who are actively participating in the exchange of ideas. An idea by itself is all it is and all it remains. When married or linked to practical application and doing something concrete is created. The computer like tv is one of the best educational and most useful tools ever created but like tv put in the wrong hands has led to more and more centralised control and one of the more time wasting devices available to man. B.r., David > Best wishes > > Keith Addison > Journey to Forever > Handmade Projects > Tokyo > http://journeytoforever.org/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Hi Hanns >Keith, Harry et al, > >Have been reading this stuff with great interest. Am wondering if there is >some way all of us likeminded people could pool ideas and come up with >something practical that just might begin to make a difference. Isn't that what we're doing here? >In my >opinion as long as our young keep on getting fed with all this materialistic >image/gadgets/fashion/video hits/yuppie crap that is dished out by the media >industry each day so that the mega conglomerates can endlessly increase >their markets, we will remain in a no win situation all round. It's not just the young. But on the other hand, it seems to me an increasingly large number of people, especially young people, are freeing their heads up from all these soporifics and finding alternatives, and finding things that matter to put their energy and efforts into. >What happened to the great movements of generations past? Where people for >right or wrong reasons stood by the courage of their convictions and were >prepared to suffer for them if necessary. The Boston Pilgrims, the Boer >Trekkers, the Mormons just to mention a few? 60s freaks? :-) Seriously. >Today all we seem to do is >talk, Phillip Adams calls himself and us "the chattering classes". Sure the >Green peace activists play Russian roulette with fuel tankers, tie >themselves to trees etc., but at the end of the day we all go home watch the >telly, eat a Japanese restaurants and wear Calvin Klein clothes. Speaking for us, we never watch telly, we seldom eat at restaurants (but they're prolly Japanese when we do, being in Tokyo!), our clothes don't have labels and get dirty quickly. We don't do much else but work on our project/projects. We're far from alone. >Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but I wish there was something we could >do that would just make a little bit of real difference. You're doing something in PNG that will make a difference. Others on this list are doing/planning similar/different projects elsewhere. It seems to me a hell of a lot of people are doing, not just talking. Cheer up Hanns, lots of darkness indeed, but there's plenty of light shining through everywhere. We're yet far from the place where it says "Abandon hope all ye who enter here" on the gate. >I bet the CIA is busy lurking on this list ;-) Much good may it do them! Hey guys, are you running your spymobiles on bioD yet? >Hanns > >-Original Message----- >From: Gary and Jos Kimlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Wednesday, 30 May 2001 4:36 PM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > >Now you have made me think!! >Naturally I don't mean to support the global free trade push, rather I Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
>Hanns, > The only way you can change things is to get out and do them. If >you wait for others you will still be sitting there talking about it in 10 >years time. The problem is not that people think differently to you but that >most of them dont think fullstop. I am often reminded of an old teeshirt >saying which use to say "We are not Yes men we say No when the boss does". >So typically true of most of us. Go to it and you will have a vastly greater >affect than anyone philosophying about it. >B.r., David "Seek and ye shall find", David - a low opinion of people and humanity in general tends to be a self-fulfilling prophecy. Of course there's plenty of evidence of it, but there's plenty of the opposite evidence too, and you don't have to be a Pollyanna to see it, nor is there any need for rose-tinted specs. I've investigated and reported on and experienced the darknesses and horrors and blights for too long ever to be unaware of them, it's what propels me, but I nonetheless see every reason for optimism, and I have great faith in the good sense of ordinary people. And indeed, go to it, yes, but, philosophising or not, please be sure of what you're doing first, especially in Third World issues - people with lots of energy and endless goodwill who just want to help can cause a lot of damage. It's fraught with pitfalls, of a special type: you make the mistakes, others suffer for it later after you've gone home feeling good about yourself because you've "helped" them. Maybe what kind of effect is more important than how great it might be. These are ecological matters, and the main (only) rule of ecology is that everything is connected to everything else - it needs a bit better than just good intentions. Best wishes Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ >- Original Message - >From: Hanns B. Wetzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:31 PM >Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > > Keith, Harry et al, > > > > Have been reading this stuff with great interest. Am wondering if there is > > some way all of us likeminded people could pool ideas and come up with > > something practical that just might begin to make a difference. In my > > opinion as long as our young keep on getting fed with all this Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Hanns, The only way you can change things is to get out and do them. If you wait for others you will still be sitting there talking about it in 10 years time. The problem is not that people think differently to you but that most of them dont think fullstop. I am often reminded of an old teeshirt saying which use to say "We are not Yes men we say No when the boss does". So typically true of most of us. Go to it and you will have a vastly greater affect than anyone philosophying about it. B.r., David - Original Message - From: Hanns B. Wetzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2001 11:31 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > Keith, Harry et al, > > Have been reading this stuff with great interest. Am wondering if there is > some way all of us likeminded people could pool ideas and come up with > something practical that just might begin to make a difference. In my > opinion as long as our young keep on getting fed with all this materialistic > image/gadgets/fashion/video hits/yuppie crap that is dished out by the media > industry each day so that the mega conglomerates can endlessly increase > their markets, we will remain in a no win situation all round. > > What happened to the great movements of generations past? Where people for > right or wrong reasons stood by the courage of their convictions and were > prepared to suffer for them if necessary. The Boston Pilgrims, the Boer > Trekkers, the Mormons just to mention a few? Today all we seem to do is > talk, Phillip Adams calls himself and us "the chattering classes". Sure the > Green peace activists play Russian roulette with fuel tankers, tie > themselves to trees etc., but at the end of the day we all go home watch the > telly, eat a Japanese restaurants and wear Calvin Klein clothes. > > Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but I wish there was something we could > do that would just make a little bit of real difference. > > I bet the CIA is busy lurking on this list ;-) > > Hanns > > -Original Message- > From: Gary and Jos Kimlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Wednesday, 30 May 2001 4:36 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 > > > Now you have made me think!! > Naturally I don't mean to support the global free trade push, rather I > support regulation at the national level, but it is the mechanism of that > regulation I am struggling to identify. > I like your point about real capitalism as opposed to the corporate way. > Unfortunately the pooling of resources may be a characteristic of modern man > in that it gave a selective advantage to the tribes that employed it best. I > am not convinced that this is intrinsically evil. Even at a village level > those who benefit from working together need a way to demonstrate a social > conscience, in the absence of a spiritual incentive, taxation seems > appropriate. > > <---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair > and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, > to present low and middle income taxpayers."> > I agree that socialised costs, either infrastructure or environmental, are > paid for by taxes. There are more low and middle taxpayers and therein lies > the democratic possibility of shifting the tax burden to where it belongs. > And yes it may well be a trickle down effect but without some mitigating > mechanism the efficient capitalists tend to condense to corporations. > A classic criticism of taxing wealth is that it removes the incentive for > economic advancement, that of course is the idea, by providing incentive for > the poor and removing the incentive above some point we may reduce the gap > between the rich and poor. It also caps the local capitalist. If we can't do > that in developed countries what chance else where. > > > instances where the Green Revolution reduced infant and mother > mortality rates, many instances of it doing the opposite.> > > Population would not have increased without a higher survival rate- > naturally the population expands to meet another (or the same) limiting > factor. If we rationalise the obvious- that the children we help to survive > will contribute to further population pressure- we are on dangerous ground. > The best way I can detect to prevent this is to properly educate the > children and provide them with social (including food) security by taxing > those who accumulate the wealth. ( Increases in productivity do produce > wealth and it does accumulate some where.) > This is improving my expression but I am still waiting for mechanism. > "Come the revolution" is no longer good enough, nor can we wait for some > genius, we nee
RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Keith, Harry et al, Have been reading this stuff with great interest. Am wondering if there is some way all of us likeminded people could pool ideas and come up with something practical that just might begin to make a difference. In my opinion as long as our young keep on getting fed with all this materialistic image/gadgets/fashion/video hits/yuppie crap that is dished out by the media industry each day so that the mega conglomerates can endlessly increase their markets, we will remain in a no win situation all round. What happened to the great movements of generations past? Where people for right or wrong reasons stood by the courage of their convictions and were prepared to suffer for them if necessary. The Boston Pilgrims, the Boer Trekkers, the Mormons just to mention a few? Today all we seem to do is talk, Phillip Adams calls himself and us "the chattering classes". Sure the Green peace activists play Russian roulette with fuel tankers, tie themselves to trees etc., but at the end of the day we all go home watch the telly, eat a Japanese restaurants and wear Calvin Klein clothes. Sorry to sound like a wet blanket, but I wish there was something we could do that would just make a little bit of real difference. I bet the CIA is busy lurking on this list ;-) Hanns -Original Message- From: Gary and Jos Kimlin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, 30 May 2001 4:36 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472 Now you have made me think!! Naturally I don't mean to support the global free trade push, rather I support regulation at the national level, but it is the mechanism of that regulation I am struggling to identify. I like your point about real capitalism as opposed to the corporate way. Unfortunately the pooling of resources may be a characteristic of modern man in that it gave a selective advantage to the tribes that employed it best. I am not convinced that this is intrinsically evil. Even at a village level those who benefit from working together need a way to demonstrate a social conscience, in the absence of a spiritual incentive, taxation seems appropriate. <---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers."> I agree that socialised costs, either infrastructure or environmental, are paid for by taxes. There are more low and middle taxpayers and therein lies the democratic possibility of shifting the tax burden to where it belongs. And yes it may well be a trickle down effect but without some mitigating mechanism the efficient capitalists tend to condense to corporations. A classic criticism of taxing wealth is that it removes the incentive for economic advancement, that of course is the idea, by providing incentive for the poor and removing the incentive above some point we may reduce the gap between the rich and poor. It also caps the local capitalist. If we can't do that in developed countries what chance else where. Population would not have increased without a higher survival rate- naturally the population expands to meet another (or the same) limiting factor. If we rationalise the obvious- that the children we help to survive will contribute to further population pressure- we are on dangerous ground. The best way I can detect to prevent this is to properly educate the children and provide them with social (including food) security by taxing those who accumulate the wealth. ( Increases in productivity do produce wealth and it does accumulate some where.) This is improving my expression but I am still waiting for mechanism. "Come the revolution" is no longer good enough, nor can we wait for some genius, we need to find ways to turn the tide ourselves and use the expanding environmental movement to affect the democratic system. Our "green platitudes" work on the converted, pragmatic sustainability and transparent mechanics of change may work on the majority. You have offered some insight to the issue of assisting sustainable development in under developed States. Thanks Harry Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Hi Harry
I'm not sure how to answer you. I tried, but found I was just
repeating myself. I think your "QEDs" aren't, I see quite a few
non-sequiturs instead. As below, just a couple of instances. Further
to that, re population growth, you misunderstand the dynamics of
poverty and population growth. It is well established, easy to find
good information. The best way to decrease population growth is to
improve the economic situation of the poor, especially of poor women.
Helping poor women to get an education is highly effective. Again,
"help" is a dangerous idea - in the vast majority of cases, these
people do not need charity, it can do (and often does) more harm than
good. What they usually need is the constraints removed so they can
help themselves. These are usually external constraints, not
home-grown barriers to progress arising from their being primitive or
incompetent or unmodernised illiterates who don't know any better.
>Now you have made me think!!
>Naturally I don't mean to support the global free trade push, rather I
>support regulation at the national level, but it is the mechanism of that
>regulation I am struggling to identify.
As below ("This is improving my expression but I am still waiting for
mechanism"), you're looking for a fix-all, there isn't one, any more
than there's a "best technology" for energy in all circumstances
whatever the context. It's always different in the next valley.
Trying to fit the context to the technology tends to have unfortunate
side-effects. If you haven't already, try reading Schumacher's "Small
is Beautiful - Economics as if people mattered", and ask yourself why
it might be that Appropriate Technology, developed in support of
small-scale eeconomics, is almost invariably seen as something for
the Third World, not for developed countries, though many say that's
where it's really needed. Answers to the questions "Who benefits? -
and at whose expense?" have to be rigorously pursued. The true
answers are very often just the opposite of those initially offered.
>I like your point about real capitalism as opposed to the corporate way.
>Unfortunately the pooling of resources may be a characteristic of modern man
>in that it gave a selective advantage to the tribes that employed it best.
What has the corporate way got to do with the pooling of resources?
What you're referring to is the normal cooperation that permeates all
societies and always has done - some say it's what societies were
formed to facilitate. Against this background, the corporate way is a
newcomer, and a gross usurper.
>I
>am not convinced that this is intrinsically evil. Even at a village level
>those who benefit from working together need a way to demonstrate a social
>conscience, in the absence of a spiritual incentive, taxation seems
>appropriate.
No, it's top-down, no spiritual incentive is required, at local level
it has traditionally worked well more often than not. And the "not"
has usually arisen from external influences - such as the tax you
propose. You're reinventing the wheel.
"All that needs to happen is for the common man to be left alone." -
Skip Goebel (www.sensiblesteam.com)
Do you know these good people? The Institute for Local Self-Reliance
(ILSR) is a 23-year old organization that works with both the public
and private sectors in the US on economic development through the
efficient use of local resources.
http://www.ilsr.org/
Please see:
http://journeytoforever.org/community.html
http://journeytoforever.org/community2.html
I'll withdraw now, Harry. There are a lot of leads for you to follow
up if you want to, should be ample.
Best
Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/
><---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair
>and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not,
>to present low and middle income taxpayers.">
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address.
To unsubscribe, send an email to:
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Now you have made me think!! Naturally I don't mean to support the global free trade push, rather I support regulation at the national level, but it is the mechanism of that regulation I am struggling to identify. I like your point about real capitalism as opposed to the corporate way. Unfortunately the pooling of resources may be a characteristic of modern man in that it gave a selective advantage to the tribes that employed it best. I am not convinced that this is intrinsically evil. Even at a village level those who benefit from working together need a way to demonstrate a social conscience, in the absence of a spiritual incentive, taxation seems appropriate. <---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers."> I agree that socialised costs, either infrastructure or environmental, are paid for by taxes. There are more low and middle taxpayers and therein lies the democratic possibility of shifting the tax burden to where it belongs. And yes it may well be a trickle down effect but without some mitigating mechanism the efficient capitalists tend to condense to corporations. A classic criticism of taxing wealth is that it removes the incentive for economic advancement, that of course is the idea, by providing incentive for the poor and removing the incentive above some point we may reduce the gap between the rich and poor. It also caps the local capitalist. If we can't do that in developed countries what chance else where. Population would not have increased without a higher survival rate- naturally the population expands to meet another (or the same) limiting factor. If we rationalise the obvious- that the children we help to survive will contribute to further population pressure- we are on dangerous ground. The best way I can detect to prevent this is to properly educate the children and provide them with social (including food) security by taxing those who accumulate the wealth. ( Increases in productivity do produce wealth and it does accumulate some where.) This is improving my expression but I am still waiting for mechanism. "Come the revolution" is no longer good enough, nor can we wait for some genius, we need to find ways to turn the tide ourselves and use the expanding environmental movement to affect the democratic system. Our "green platitudes" work on the converted, pragmatic sustainability and transparent mechanics of change may work on the majority. You have offered some insight to the issue of assisting sustainable development in under developed States. Thanks Harry Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
So you agree that developed countries should be growing their own food at home? Again reductions in productivity in developed countries impact on under developed countries because the importers can pay more than the locals for the available food. The income from exports is less evenly distributed in under developed countries than here, indeed the exporter is probably foreign owned in any case so most of the income stays in the developed world as does the company tax. Developed countries need to optimize their productivity QED. Regards from Harry Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472- a wealth tax
>Hi David et al, >It is not about distribution patterns of food, it is about distribution >patterns of money. In the absence of a proven substitute for a free market >economy that can maintain efficient production we have limited options. What we have now is not a "free" market economy, and the current "free trade" initiatives are moving further and further away from that, towards wealth concentration and poverty creation. We certainly do have alternatives to these endless variants of all the "trickle-down" crap. I'm afraid I'd see a wealth tax to provide a social safety net as more trickle-down crap. The production that goes with the current "free" market economy is not efficient, it's deeply wasteful and inequitable, with very high externalised costs. What the "free" market has tended to replace is local self-sufficiency, which once was largely the norm and should have been developed rather than replaced. This doesn't exclude capitalism, far from it - it promotes real capitalism, as opposed to corporatism. "Small-scale capitalism works out fine, but as scale increases the departure from real capitalism becomes more pronounced---profits are privatized, but costs are socialized. The attendant repair and maintenance are left to succeeding generations if possible, if not, to present low and middle income taxpayers." "In the Industrial World small businesses account for more technological advances in their areas of expertise than government supported researchers or research departments in massive corporations. Third World craftspeople, farmers and other villagers invent, create, and contribute to the technological process of their area much more than outside 'experts' do." Communities based on local enterprise certainly thrive much better than those depending on one corporate employer. >For >example many third world economies gain dollars by selling grain for stock >food- literally meat for the rich mans table. To some extent organic and bio >farmers gain a premium price for their clean green produce again from those >who can afford to spend more on food. It's probably a type of humanitarian >"precautionary principle"-decreasing global productivity may increase the >unacceptably high instance of starvation related disease and death. There's no need to decrease productivity, there is a need to change its emphasis. There's plenty of opportunity for increasing productivity, especially at the local level, with benefit for all. That can truly increase wealth instead of simply concentrating it at everyone else's expense, and with environmental benefits instead of degradation. >I have suggested, probably unfairly, that reducing production for >environmental gains could be akin to genocide for the poor. Nor am I keen on >genocide of the rich, the Oklahoma solution is not acceptable. Those who can >accumulate assets better than others may be the result of millennia of >evolution- they will not go away. Greed is not a talent, it's a sickness. But the problem is not really the rich, it's the corporate mentality - ie, the mentality of a corporation: the corporation itself, not simply the people who work for it. Corporations are not human and have only one aim, to accumulate profits, without let or hindrance. That isn't human, it's got nothing to do with any human inheritance that goes back millenia. That has to be reined in. Try a search of the message archives for "mammoth". >Rather I would see a redistribution of >wealth as it is accumulated. A localisation of wealth creation might work better instead of vacuuming it all up to the top and then trying to find some way of siphoning it all back down again. >In Australia that redistribution would need to >result in the availability of a "comfort level" social security net for the >disadvantaged with a premium income support for the working poor that >encourages employment. Little or no taxes on income up to or above a >comfort level. A high level of spending on a social wage that includes an >education level for all. (Females with a good education have a significantly >lower reproduction rate.) This needs to be coupled with a surplus that >allows for investment in sustainable industries for the third world as per >agenda21. On the other side of the ledger this requires optimum productivity >from the available resources and a wealth tax. At about 2x the average wage >the marginal tax rates need to climb. Why shouldn't an executive on >$100/pa be paying 90c/$ on any extra income? Such a regime could >devastate any country that tried this unilaterally. It needs to be a world >wide push. My beef is that unless enviro groups use their influence on the >democratic system to tax wealth they may simply be working to further the >quality of life for the wealthy. Since I have been working with the >disadvantaged I see some things very differently than before. E.g.. the >"green revolution", once I saw it as a failure because it
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
Hi Ken
One point you're missing here is that it's not the developed
countries that feed the rest of the world. The developed countries
are the big food importers. From a previous post in this thread:
"By the way, all the developed countries, and especially the US, are
net food importers from the developing countries. Many of the
countries in which hunger is rampant export much more in agricultural
goods than they import. Northern countries are the main food
importers, their purchases representing 71.2 percent of the total
value of food items imported in the world in 1992. Imports by the 30
lowest-income countries accounted for only 5.2 percent of all
international commerce in food and farm commodities."
>I agree with Harmon. There should be distributed food production and not a
>centralized production of food for the world.
Indeed yes. Local production, local self-sufficiency, is the path to
food security, even in cities, especially in the Third World - small,
independent city farms are providing more and more of the urban food
supply, and helping to solve waste problems that would be ever more
intractable without them.
>Right now WTO is almost a
>reality. Excess food from the US(which usually is destroyed rather than
>sold to maintain the price) can be sold elsewhere at a fraction of the cost
>of what a third world farmer can efficiently produce.
Very much of it is livestock feed rather than food for the hungry.
>The farmer would
>rather stop planting, sell his land and move to the city where odd jobs
>make better pay. In the end, that country that imports cheap food loses
>its agriculture industry(we are talking of mostly the 3rd world countries)
>and depends solely on the exporting country. Climate change is a reality
>as well. Can any exporting country of food guarantee a stable supply of
>cheap farm produce for the next 50 years?
No - especially not with the erosion of the biodiversity of food
crops, greatly accelerated by such wondrous schemes as the Green
Revolution and, now, the "Gene Giant" seed companies and the
bio-piracy of native germplasm they're so fond of. We're losing the
hardy and adaptible (and productive) traditional varieties just when
changing climatic conditions look like making a wide range of
adaptible varieties essential.
>What happens when they have a
>bad year of harvest. Is the best producer suddenly obligated to provide
>for the needs of other countries at the same cheap price? You cannot sell
>what you don't have and in economics, when demand is greater that supply,
>prices go up and during that duration of lag between supply and demand you
>get chaos(bec. we are talking of millions of people starving). Take a look
>at Indonesia, people there don't have much in material things but when
>their rice bowl was affected, people took it out on anyone they can put a
>blame on.
I'm sure that'll happen again, and not only there. The IMF didn't
exactly help, did it? That and the forthcoming water wars...
But all this isn't inevitable. It probably is inevitable though if we
- ordinary folks everywhere - sit around twiddling our thumbs waiting
for changes from the top ("them") to make everything right. But
increasing numbers aren't just sitting around.
Please let me say again that IMHO this subject is not off-topic -
it's the same context that many biofuels initiatives are beset with
and are trying to address. Environment and development are not
separate issues.
Regards
Keith Addison
Journey to Forever
Handmade Projects
Tokyo
http://journeytoforever.org/
>Ken Chua
>
>At 01:02 PM 5/29/01 -0500, you wrote:
> >"Crabb, David" wrote:
> >
> >> pardon my logic... but if there "currently is enough food around.. and the
> >> hungry only go hungry because
> >> of distribution issues"...
> >>
> >
> > Actually what is happening is even more insidious -- just one quick
> >example:
> >U.S. farmers overproduce, say, corn. So corn is shipped to Guatamala and
>dumped
> >on the market. There is no way the small local farmer can compete with his
>mule
> >and single row plow, so he goes broke, can't sell his crop. At the
>same time,
> >the military is roaming around, looking for dissidents (guerrillas) and
> >hasseling rural people, causing many people to move to the city to
>be safe --
> >especially since they can't make a living farming anymore. So then, in
>order to
> >survive, they have to work in the sweat shop factories run by
>Walmart or Nike
> >or whoever for 35 cents an hour.
> > Nice system, eh? The multinational megacorp win all the way around, the
> >people lose all the way around -- in the US, in the Third World too. All
>the US
> >jobs go to Guatamala/werever -- soon the US will be just another 3rd World
> >economy.
> >
> >
> >--
> >Harmon Seaver, MLIS
> >CyberShamanix
> >Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
Please do
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472- a wealth tax
Hi David et al, It is not about distribution patterns of food, it is about distribution patterns of money. In the absence of a proven substitute for a free market economy that can maintain efficient production we have limited options. For example many third world economies gain dollars by selling grain for stock food- literally meat for the rich mans table. To some extent organic and bio farmers gain a premium price for their clean green produce again from those who can afford to spend more on food. It's probably a type of humanitarian "precautionary principle"-decreasing global productivity may increase the unacceptably high instance of starvation related disease and death. I have suggested, probably unfairly, that reducing production for environmental gains could be akin to genocide for the poor. Nor am I keen on genocide of the rich, the Oklahoma solution is not acceptable. Those who can accumulate assets better than others may be the result of millennia of evolution- they will not go away. Rather I would see a redistribution of wealth as it is accumulated. In Australia that redistribution would need to result in the availability of a "comfort level" social security net for the disadvantaged with a premium income support for the working poor that encourages employment. Little or no taxes on income up to or above a comfort level. A high level of spending on a social wage that includes an education level for all. (Females with a good education have a significantly lower reproduction rate.) This needs to be coupled with a surplus that allows for investment in sustainable industries for the third world as per agenda21. On the other side of the ledger this requires optimum productivity from the available resources and a wealth tax. At about 2x the average wage the marginal tax rates need to climb. Why shouldn't an executive on $100/pa be paying 90c/$ on any extra income? Such a regime could devastate any country that tried this unilaterally. It needs to be a world wide push. My beef is that unless enviro groups use their influence on the democratic system to tax wealth they may simply be working to further the quality of life for the wealthy. Since I have been working with the disadvantaged I see some things very differently than before. E.g.. the "green revolution", once I saw it as a failure because it seemed to accelerate population growth. Now I see that it reduced infant and mother mortality rates. The increase in productivity needed a commensurate spending on those aspects of the social wage that reduce fertility. I believe that international law has made it clear that population growth may only be legitimately slowed by reducing the pregnancy rate, not by engineering or tolerating a high(juvenile) death rate. I tend to see First world environmental programs as widening the gulf between the haves and the have nots unless there is social wage component, i.e. part of the problem not part of the solution that leads to global sustainability. I apologize for taking up email space- the questioning helps me to clarify my thoughts. Regards from Harry Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
I agree with Harmon. There should be distributed food production and not a centralized production of food for the world. Right now WTO is almost a reality. Excess food from the US(which usually is destroyed rather than sold to maintain the price) can be sold elsewhere at a fraction of the cost of what a third world farmer can efficiently produce. The farmer would rather stop planting, sell his land and move to the city where odd jobs make better pay. In the end, that country that imports cheap food loses its agriculture industry(we are talking of mostly the 3rd world countries) and depends solely on the exporting country. Climate change is a reality as well. Can any exporting country of food guarantee a stable supply of cheap farm produce for the next 50 years? What happens when they have a bad year of harvest. Is the best producer suddenly obligated to provide for the needs of other countries at the same cheap price? You cannot sell what you don't have and in economics, when demand is greater that supply, prices go up and during that duration of lag between supply and demand you get chaos(bec. we are talking of millions of people starving). Take a look at Indonesia, people there don't have much in material things but when their rice bowl was affected, people took it out on anyone they can put a blame on. Ken Chua At 01:02 PM 5/29/01 -0500, you wrote: >"Crabb, David" wrote: > >> pardon my logic... but if there "currently is enough food around.. and the >> hungry only go hungry because >> of distribution issues"... >> > > Actually what is happening is even more insidious -- just one quick >example: >U.S. farmers overproduce, say, corn. So corn is shipped to Guatamala and dumped >on the market. There is no way the small local farmer can compete with his mule >and single row plow, so he goes broke, can't sell his crop. At the same time, >the military is roaming around, looking for dissidents (guerrillas) and >hasseling rural people, causing many people to move to the city to be safe -- >especially since they can't make a living farming anymore. So then, in order to >survive, they have to work in the sweat shop factories run by Walmart or Nike >or whoever for 35 cents an hour. > Nice system, eh? The multinational megacorp win all the way around, the >people lose all the way around -- in the US, in the Third World too. All the US >jobs go to Guatamala/werever -- soon the US will be just another 3rd World >economy. > > >-- >Harmon Seaver, MLIS >CyberShamanix >Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > - Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
"Crabb, David" wrote: > pardon my logic... but if there "currently is enough food around.. and the > hungry only go hungry because > of distribution issues"... > Actually what is happening is even more insidious -- just one quick example: U.S. farmers overproduce, say, corn. So corn is shipped to Guatamala and dumped on the market. There is no way the small local farmer can compete with his mule and single row plow, so he goes broke, can't sell his crop. At the same time, the military is roaming around, looking for dissidents (guerrillas) and hasseling rural people, causing many people to move to the city to be safe -- especially since they can't make a living farming anymore. So then, in order to survive, they have to work in the sweat shop factories run by Walmart or Nike or whoever for 35 cents an hour. Nice system, eh? The multinational megacorp win all the way around, the people lose all the way around -- in the US, in the Third World too. All the US jobs go to Guatamala/werever -- soon the US will be just another 3rd World economy. -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Digest Number 472
>> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 01:34:52 +0900 >> From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: More on Jerusalem artichokes >> >> Hi Harry >> >> >Thanks for those references Keith, they will be very useful. >> >> You're most welcome, I'm glad you can use them. >> >> >produce enough food to go around. Until I observe a change in the way >> >wealth, and food, are distributed I must insist that we do all we can to >> >increase the total production of food and services to humans. When so many >> pardon my logic... but if there "currently is enough food around.. and the hungry only go hungry because of distribution issues"... then what good is increasing production of food . This is like some pilot is running around in the atlantic.. low on fuel, not enough to get to base and somone radioing in.. ok.. we just got another shipment of fuel here.. in fact, its more than we know what to do with... so when you land.. fill right on up. increasing production will just cause prices of food to drop, and farmers to go poor. It won't help the distribution channels at all. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
