Re: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES
Thanks David, Based on those figures even though they are 5 years old there is obviously one heck of a long way to go. It may be that the easisest and best fields for vegetable oils is not engine oils but other lubricants such as greases etc which have a lot of fillers etc. These figures also makes you wonder why man is in such a hurry to waste such a resource. There is no way man even with the help of nature could ever create or supply 370,000 million tons. Anyone seeing this figure can quickly see how wasteful the oil and auto industries have been and continue to be. B.r., David It therefore seems > logical that vegetable > oil-based lubricants are perceived to have the greatest competitive > advantage in total loss > systems e.g. chain bar oils, two stroke marine engines, drilling muds, > agricultural greases and > possibly in applications where the risk of loss is high. e.g. certain > hydraulic systems. > In such cases their negative impact on the environment is much less than > that of mineral oil-based > lubricants. Although they are more expensive than mineral oil-based > lubricants, less is > needed per tonne of wood cut, so the cost is no greater. However, their > extensive use in these > contexts is likely to be dependent on specific environmental legislation (as > is the case in > Germany and Switzerland). Nevertheless, since April 1995 the UK's Forestry > Enterprise (a > division of the Forestry Commission) has adopted a policy of using > environmentally-friendly > lubricants to lubricate chainbars and chains, in both their motor manual > systems and automated > harvesters. The UK's Environment Agency is also keen to promote the use of > more > environmentally-friendly products. > At the 'Lubricants from oilseeds workshop' held in London on 9th May 1996, > Dr Harold of > Lubrizol International Laboratories stated that the estimated potential EU > market for > biodegradable lubricants was in the region of 370,000 million tonnes (10). > However, to date > only a fraction of the market (35,000 tonnes) is actually derived from > vegetable oils (see also > Table 1.4). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing
How about an engine that recycles the engine oil at the same rate that it gets exhausted. So essentially you have a tap that pulls out the old oil from the pan and cycles in fresh oil from a reseviour. Depending on the life cycle of the oil and how fast the oil breaks down in viscosity from usable to non. You would never have to change the oil in the engine when the oil gets old you burn it for fuel. If your running a straight virgin oil engine setup you could have a tank to supply the crankcase and a second tank that holds the regular engine fuel that the old crankcase oil gets pumped into supplementally. The purpose is to avoid additive packages and other petro based life extenders. I'm not an oil chemist, so I dont know how viable it is, and wether untreated veg-oil would have a decent usable life span. cheers, cordain. From: "David Reid" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: Subject: Re: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing Date: Wed, 23 May 2001 08:42:40 +1200 Hi Dave, I suspect a lot of what you are saying below is probably true but dont know what the answers are. I believe vegetable oils just like mineral oils need additives to achieve extended life and minimal wear and tear. At least all the evidence and research points that way. The options seem to be using large amounts of oil with minimum additives and a short life, or a much smaller amount of oil with high additive levels and a much longer life. Either way the result seems to be the same. In the end we rely on good old Mother Nature to eventually break the results down or disperse them with more entering the food chain all the time. The rise of the motor car may well be the demise of man for all we know. Perhaps thats a good thing because the real disease on this planet seems to be man rather than foot and mouth, ebola, and all those other things. Perhaps it is just as well that oil will run out in 70 years (half that by my estimate). The sooner we get some of these other technologies on line the better. B.r., David - Original Message - From: David Preskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing > List, > > Engine oil already done. See http://www.agromgt.com/prod01.htm > Problem is it needs loadsa additives. Theirs is based on rape (canola) last > I heard coz its got a high (60%) oleic acid content, good in boundary > lubrication, thermal stability, etc. but its a start and I think their > philosophy is bang on course. Patent issued 1997- ish. > > Additives are very nasty and its all kept very quiet by the additive > companies (Lubrizol, Henkel) although I enjoy treading on their toes. > Mineral oil is useless without additives and I've heard it said if these > companies stop production, the oil companies fall. > > Its something I've been researching for about ten years now and which is why > I'm passionate about veg oils replacing mineral, whether for bio-diesel or > lubricants. Most lube oils and fuels contain scary compounds - chemists out > there should recognise dithiocarbamates, most of us have heard of > organo-phosphates. Well theres also organo-chlorine, organo-sulphur (smell > gear oil - hypoid EP90 - thats the sulphur). Heard about the fumes in > aircraft cabins and pilots passing out? - see muchos debatoes in UK > Parliament on tricresyl phosphate used in hydraulic oils (no action though). > Check it out and don't fly again. > > Of course there's no relationship between these compounds and nerve gases! > That would mean they've been lying to us. These companies are f*g up the > world for us all. > > Check out the list below, get some MSDS on these compounds (and don't ever > get mineral oil lubricants on your hands again). Note it is groups of > compounds, no specifics. Ring Lubrizol for a laugh and ask them what they > are. > > Dispersants (metallic): > Salicylate ester salts, sulfonates, phophonates, thiophosphonates, phenates, > phenol sulphide, alkyl substituted salicyclates. > > Dispersants (ashless): > Methacrylate copolymers and acrylate monomers with polar groups (amines, > amides, imines, imides, hydroxyl, ether, etc.), vinyl acetae-fumaric acid > coplymers, amine salts of high molecular weight organic acids, N-sustituted > long-chain alkenyl succiminides. > > Oxidation and bearing corrosion inhibitors: > Organic phosphites, metal dithiocarbamates (ouch!!), sulfufrised olefins, > zinc dithiophosphate, phenolic compounds, selenides, amines, > phospho-sulphurised terpenes. > > Anti-wear additives: > Organic phosphites, sulfufrised olefins, zinc dithiophosphate, alkaline > derivitaves. > >
Re: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES
Quote from a MAFF report: 12 1.0.iii Oil Crops - Markets The total world production of vegetable oils is over 85 million tonnes, with more than 80% originating from soya bean, oil palm, rapeseed, sunflower and coconut. Whilst the majority of this oil is used in the food industry 25% is used in non-food or technical applications, by the oleochemical industry. Oil Crop market areas Lubricants It is reported that around 740,000 tonnes of lubricants are used in the UK each year, whilst the EU market for lubricants is reputed to be some 4.5 million tonnes (59). Of these, over 580,000 tonnes (13%) are unaccounted for after use and presumably lost to the environment. The loss of hydraulic oils is believed to be around 8% whilst for engine oils the figure proposed is 34%. Further to this the European Environmental Agency has estimated that around 260,000 tonnes of oil are lost in the North Sea each year (59). It therefore seems logical that vegetable oil-based lubricants are perceived to have the greatest competitive advantage in total loss systems e.g. chain bar oils, two stroke marine engines, drilling muds, agricultural greases and possibly in applications where the risk of loss is high. e.g. certain hydraulic systems. In such cases their negative impact on the environment is much less than that of mineral oil-based lubricants. Although they are more expensive than mineral oil-based lubricants, less is needed per tonne of wood cut, so the cost is no greater. However, their extensive use in these contexts is likely to be dependent on specific environmental legislation (as is the case in Germany and Switzerland). Nevertheless, since April 1995 the UK's Forestry Enterprise (a division of the Forestry Commission) has adopted a policy of using environmentally-friendly lubricants to lubricate chainbars and chains, in both their motor manual systems and automated harvesters. The UK's Environment Agency is also keen to promote the use of more environmentally-friendly products. At the 'Lubricants from oilseeds workshop' held in London on 9th May 1996, Dr Harold of Lubrizol International Laboratories stated that the estimated potential EU market for biodegradable lubricants was in the region of 370,000 million tonnes (10). However, to date only a fraction of the market (35,000 tonnes) is actually derived from vegetable oils (see also Table 1.4). Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing
Hi Dave, I suspect a lot of what you are saying below is probably true but dont know what the answers are. I believe vegetable oils just like mineral oils need additives to achieve extended life and minimal wear and tear. At least all the evidence and research points that way. The options seem to be using large amounts of oil with minimum additives and a short life, or a much smaller amount of oil with high additive levels and a much longer life. Either way the result seems to be the same. In the end we rely on good old Mother Nature to eventually break the results down or disperse them with more entering the food chain all the time. The rise of the motor car may well be the demise of man for all we know. Perhaps thats a good thing because the real disease on this planet seems to be man rather than foot and mouth, ebola, and all those other things. Perhaps it is just as well that oil will run out in 70 years (half that by my estimate). The sooner we get some of these other technologies on line the better. B.r., David - Original Message - From: David Preskett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2001 10:28 PM Subject: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing > List, > > Engine oil already done. See http://www.agromgt.com/prod01.htm > Problem is it needs loadsa additives. Theirs is based on rape (canola) last > I heard coz its got a high (60%) oleic acid content, good in boundary > lubrication, thermal stability, etc. but its a start and I think their > philosophy is bang on course. Patent issued 1997- ish. > > Additives are very nasty and its all kept very quiet by the additive > companies (Lubrizol, Henkel) although I enjoy treading on their toes. > Mineral oil is useless without additives and I've heard it said if these > companies stop production, the oil companies fall. > > Its something I've been researching for about ten years now and which is why > I'm passionate about veg oils replacing mineral, whether for bio-diesel or > lubricants. Most lube oils and fuels contain scary compounds - chemists out > there should recognise dithiocarbamates, most of us have heard of > organo-phosphates. Well theres also organo-chlorine, organo-sulphur (smell > gear oil - hypoid EP90 - thats the sulphur). Heard about the fumes in > aircraft cabins and pilots passing out? - see muchos debatoes in UK > Parliament on tricresyl phosphate used in hydraulic oils (no action though). > Check it out and don't fly again. > > Of course there's no relationship between these compounds and nerve gases! > That would mean they've been lying to us. These companies are f*g up the > world for us all. > > Check out the list below, get some MSDS on these compounds (and don't ever > get mineral oil lubricants on your hands again). Note it is groups of > compounds, no specifics. Ring Lubrizol for a laugh and ask them what they > are. > > Dispersants (metallic): > Salicylate ester salts, sulfonates, phophonates, thiophosphonates, phenates, > phenol sulphide, alkyl substituted salicyclates. > > Dispersants (ashless): > Methacrylate copolymers and acrylate monomers with polar groups (amines, > amides, imines, imides, hydroxyl, ether, etc.), vinyl acetae-fumaric acid > coplymers, amine salts of high molecular weight organic acids, N-sustituted > long-chain alkenyl succiminides. > > Oxidation and bearing corrosion inhibitors: > Organic phosphites, metal dithiocarbamates (ouch!!), sulfufrised olefins, > zinc dithiophosphate, phenolic compounds, selenides, amines, > phospho-sulphurised terpenes. > > Anti-wear additives: > Organic phosphites, sulfufrised olefins, zinc dithiophosphate, alkaline > derivitaves. > > Viscocity index improves: > Polyisobutenes, polymethacrylates, polyacrylates, methacrylate copolymers > and acrylate monomers with polar groups (amines, amides, imines, imides, > hydroxyl, ether, etc.), vinyl acetae-fumaric acid coplymers. > > Pour point depressants (remember these before you winterise your bio-d): > Alkylated wax, napthalenes, polymethacrylates (0.05% in bio-d), alkylated > wax phenols. > > Most are in engine oil for example up to 10% treatment rate, even more in > critical systems such as aircraft. > > This makes me mad (well mad-dog f*&%$}g mad actually). Unsustainable, > unrenewable crap/bulls**t and lies. > Ask for an MSDS from these boys - none comes. Commercial confidentiality. > Bastards! > > Solutions, well Ed B pointed out a good one. There is a patent, held by > Fuchs Petroleum in Germany (1997 priority date 30.10.97 reference: > DE19747854A1), of a car diesel engine using veg oil as a crankcase lube then > burning as a fuel. Problem is its held in a separate tank and proportionally > mixed with fuel f
Re: [biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing
Thankyou for sharing this, Dave, very interesting. Good to know, if not nice to know. Worth a good tanner-and-a-half. Keith Addison Journey to Forever Handmade Projects Tokyo http://journeytoforever.org/ "David Preskett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >List, > >Engine oil already done. See http://www.agromgt.com/prod01.htm >Problem is it needs loadsa additives. Theirs is based on rape (canola) last >I heard coz its got a high (60%) oleic acid content, good in boundary >lubrication, thermal stability, etc. but its a start and I think their >philosophy is bang on course. Patent issued 1997- ish. > >Additives are very nasty and its all kept very quiet by the additive >companies (Lubrizol, Henkel) although I enjoy treading on their toes. >Mineral oil is useless without additives and I've heard it said if these >companies stop production, the oil companies fall. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Engine oil and ADDITIVES - whistleblowing
List, Engine oil already done. See http://www.agromgt.com/prod01.htm Problem is it needs loadsa additives. Theirs is based on rape (canola) last I heard coz its got a high (60%) oleic acid content, good in boundary lubrication, thermal stability, etc. but its a start and I think their philosophy is bang on course. Patent issued 1997- ish. Additives are very nasty and its all kept very quiet by the additive companies (Lubrizol, Henkel) although I enjoy treading on their toes. Mineral oil is useless without additives and I've heard it said if these companies stop production, the oil companies fall. Its something I've been researching for about ten years now and which is why I'm passionate about veg oils replacing mineral, whether for bio-diesel or lubricants. Most lube oils and fuels contain scary compounds - chemists out there should recognise dithiocarbamates, most of us have heard of organo-phosphates. Well theres also organo-chlorine, organo-sulphur (smell gear oil - hypoid EP90 - thats the sulphur). Heard about the fumes in aircraft cabins and pilots passing out? - see muchos debatoes in UK Parliament on tricresyl phosphate used in hydraulic oils (no action though). Check it out and don't fly again. Of course there's no relationship between these compounds and nerve gases! That would mean they've been lying to us. These companies are f*g up the world for us all. Check out the list below, get some MSDS on these compounds (and don't ever get mineral oil lubricants on your hands again). Note it is groups of compounds, no specifics. Ring Lubrizol for a laugh and ask them what they are. Dispersants (metallic): Salicylate ester salts, sulfonates, phophonates, thiophosphonates, phenates, phenol sulphide, alkyl substituted salicyclates. Dispersants (ashless): Methacrylate copolymers and acrylate monomers with polar groups (amines, amides, imines, imides, hydroxyl, ether, etc.), vinyl acetae-fumaric acid coplymers, amine salts of high molecular weight organic acids, N-sustituted long-chain alkenyl succiminides. Oxidation and bearing corrosion inhibitors: Organic phosphites, metal dithiocarbamates (ouch!!), sulfufrised olefins, zinc dithiophosphate, phenolic compounds, selenides, amines, phospho-sulphurised terpenes. Anti-wear additives: Organic phosphites, sulfufrised olefins, zinc dithiophosphate, alkaline derivitaves. Viscocity index improves: Polyisobutenes, polymethacrylates, polyacrylates, methacrylate copolymers and acrylate monomers with polar groups (amines, amides, imines, imides, hydroxyl, ether, etc.), vinyl acetae-fumaric acid coplymers. Pour point depressants (remember these before you winterise your bio-d): Alkylated wax, napthalenes, polymethacrylates (0.05% in bio-d), alkylated wax phenols. Most are in engine oil for example up to 10% treatment rate, even more in critical systems such as aircraft. This makes me mad (well mad-dog f*&%$}g mad actually). Unsustainable, unrenewable crap/bulls**t and lies. Ask for an MSDS from these boys - none comes. Commercial confidentiality. Bastards! Solutions, well Ed B pointed out a good one. There is a patent, held by Fuchs Petroleum in Germany (1997 priority date 30.10.97 reference: DE19747854A1), of a car diesel engine using veg oil as a crankcase lube then burning as a fuel. Problem is its held in a separate tank and proportionally mixed with fuel from the main tank. What else is in the tank? Yup, additives. Thats all they think of these oil companies. The technique isn't new, trucks pull off engine oil as they go along and replace it with fresh, the old being used as fuel. What Fuchs do is to draw off all the time. No different to a stationary engine I saw described in Chemical Abstracts, except that one did'nt use additivesmuch cleverer. My research is suggesting that the use of additives in veg oils is unesseary. The principles of use of veg oil as a lubricant starts from studies in the 1920's where Langmuir (British physicist) recognised stearic acid reduced the coefficient of friction on sliding surfaces greater than that of mineral oil. This later became termed as boundary lubrication by WB Hardy (another Brit) in the 1930's. Later still, the mechanism was explained by Bowden and Tabor (Brits again I'm afraid) in the 1940's. The fatty acids become attracted to the metal surfaces (because the FA's are polar, something mineral oil is'nt) and a chemical reaction occurs forming metal salts which are themselves the lubricants up to their respetive melting points. I firmly believe that in many situations, if you put in the additives I listed above, you lose the natural ability of the fatty acids to act as lubricants in the first place. THIS IS WHY BIODIESEL HAS ALL THE PROPERTIES OF LUBRICITY WE KEEP BANGING ON ABOUT! Even the additive companies know this and use fatty acids as additives (jojoba oil is a classic example of this in EP applications). Anymore whistleblowers out there? thats my tuppence-worth (tanner's-worth even)
