Re: [biofuel] Ethanol fuel - was Re: SVO vs biodiesel - was Re: newby

[J Allen]

Hello Keith  As a chemist I use lots and lot of ethanol. for testing. 
 And yes I have made Ethanol
And yes I do use ethanol fuel.  I am all ways looking for new way of 
 makeing bio diesel fuel.
I have one that I have been working for about a year  I will Be willing 
to share to formula to see
what other think. Best wishes Jim Allen

Keith Addison wrote:

> Hello Jim
>
> >  Keith I'm not saying all people don't think And certainly not this
> >group here.
> >What I am saying is a person on the street.  9 out of 10 people that
> >know about
> >ethanol
>
> I wonder how many that would be? Or maybe how few: other posters have
> bemoaned the woefully inadequate level of promotion and public
> education from the Big Ethanol players like ADM.
>
> >if you ask them how it is made or what it made out of they will corn
> >or grain.
>
> Most would probably say corn (maize). Certainly not the best crop -
> though IMO there is no "best" crop, there are so many factors that
> mean much more than yield does when you get down to it, ie on a real
> farm at local level (and by "real" farm I mean a mixed farm, not a
> monocrop disaster).
>
> On the other hand,  there's currently billions of bushels of surplus
> corn in the US - the cheapest thing for Americans to burn in their
> woodstoves. Might as well do something useful with it - and hopefully
> it might even occur to the Big Guys eventually that there's OIL in it
> too that they could use to make biodiesel as well as ethanol.
>
> But as long as ethanol and biofuels generally are treated as an
> agriculture issue, for the benefit of agribiz at everyone else's
> expense, and not an energy issue, I don't think we can expect any
> sensible behaviour, at least not at that level. At the level most
> people here operate at though it's a different matter.
>
> >I don't know if you heard about the new ethanol plant they
> >are building in
> >Kansas and all the BS hype they gave it.
>
> I think we did, there's quite a lot of news in the archive about
> ethanol plants in Kansas. Is that the 25-million gallon plant in
> Russell?
>
> >The people that are building
> >it had public meetings
> >on the plant.  They had an oil co rep that told people how they would
> >buy the ethanol and mix it with gas.  They told the farmers how that
> >would pay top dollar for the grain and how everybody wins.
> >Bull what they didn't tell is the only winners will be the plant owners
> >and the oil co becouse after
> >the ethanol is is processed and mixed with Fuel.
> >The spent grain  will be dryed and used in animal feed.  Like Dog food,
> >Cat food And Cattle feed
>
> Especially cattlefeed I think, DDGs. They sell the CO2 as well, to
> bottling companies mostly. DDGs make good sense with an on-farm
> ethanol operation - with the yeast residues, it's more nutritious
> (more protein) than the corn had in the first place. Probably no need
> to dry it either. I think it can be a win-win situation when it's
> small-scale, like this:
>
> The Butterfield Still -- This report provides details of the design,
> construction, operation and performance of the FSB Energy Fuel
> Alcohol Plant.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_butterfield.html
>
> Farm-scale ethanol fuel production plant -- the Gildred/Butterfield
> Fuel Alcohol Plant, winner of the California Department of Food and
> Agriculture's Ethanol Fuel Plant Design Competition: Floyd
> Butterfield's on-farm still operation in full, complete with
> blueprints. Plant Description, Plant Operating Manual, Plant
> Performance Data, Plant Construction Guide, Recommendations,
> Appendixes and eight blueprints of the still, cooker and operating
> set-up. Operates continuously, 24 hours per day, 10 gallons per hour
> of 190 proof ethanol. Includes screw press blueprints and
> construction details. With many thanks to Garle A. Webb.
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/Butterfield/butterfield1.html
>
> >just to name a few.
>
> I quite often quote Steve Spence saying here once that anything can
> be done badly and in 10 years we'll probably be fighting Big Ethanol
> tooth and nail like we fight Big Oil today. I think I got it right...
> Oh, here it is: "I have a niggling feeling that 10 years from now,
> the environmentalists will be fighting the ethanol industry tooth and
> nail. anything can be done badly, and I expect the ADM's of the world
> will be successful in turning a clean renewable resource into a dirty
> unsustainable one.."
>
> >onec agin I want to say Iam sorry if I made any one
> >mad in the Group.
>
> Naah, not at all, but:
>
> > > All that said, more discussion on fuel ethanol is welcome.
>
> For which thankyou! Don't stop now:
>
> > Do you make and use fuel ethanol?
>
> :-)
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
>
> >Jim Allen
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >Keith Addison wrote:
> >
> > > >If people would think Ethanol Can be processed form jusy about any
> > > >Vegetation not just corn and grain. Even Grass can yeild Ethanol. If
> >

Re: [biofuel] Ethanol fuel - was Re: SVO vs biodiesel - was Re: newby

[Keith Addison]

Hello Jim

>  Keith I'm not saying all people don't think And certainly not this
>group here.
>What I am saying is a person on the street.  9 out of 10 people that
>know about
>ethanol

I wonder how many that would be? Or maybe how few: other posters have 
bemoaned the woefully inadequate level of promotion and public 
education from the Big Ethanol players like ADM.

>if you ask them how it is made or what it made out of they will corn
>or grain.

Most would probably say corn (maize). Certainly not the best crop - 
though IMO there is no "best" crop, there are so many factors that 
mean much more than yield does when you get down to it, ie on a real 
farm at local level (and by "real" farm I mean a mixed farm, not a 
monocrop disaster).

On the other hand,  there's currently billions of bushels of surplus 
corn in the US - the cheapest thing for Americans to burn in their 
woodstoves. Might as well do something useful with it - and hopefully 
it might even occur to the Big Guys eventually that there's OIL in it 
too that they could use to make biodiesel as well as ethanol.

But as long as ethanol and biofuels generally are treated as an 
agriculture issue, for the benefit of agribiz at everyone else's 
expense, and not an energy issue, I don't think we can expect any 
sensible behaviour, at least not at that level. At the level most 
people here operate at though it's a different matter.

>I don't know if you heard about the new ethanol plant they
>are building in
>Kansas and all the BS hype they gave it.

I think we did, there's quite a lot of news in the archive about 
ethanol plants in Kansas. Is that the 25-million gallon plant in 
Russell?

>The people that are building
>it had public meetings
>on the plant.  They had an oil co rep that told people how they would
>buy the ethanol and mix it with gas.  They told the farmers how that
>would pay top dollar for the grain and how everybody wins.
>Bull what they didn't tell is the only winners will be the plant owners
>and the oil co becouse after
>the ethanol is is processed and mixed with Fuel.
>The spent grain  will be dryed and used in animal feed.  Like Dog food,
>Cat food And Cattle feed

Especially cattlefeed I think, DDGs. They sell the CO2 as well, to 
bottling companies mostly. DDGs make good sense with an on-farm 
ethanol operation - with the yeast residues, it's more nutritious 
(more protein) than the corn had in the first place. Probably no need 
to dry it either. I think it can be a win-win situation when it's 
small-scale, like this:

The Butterfield Still -- This report provides details of the design, 
construction, operation and performance of the FSB Energy Fuel 
Alcohol Plant.
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/ethanol_butterfield.html

Farm-scale ethanol fuel production plant -- the Gildred/Butterfield 
Fuel Alcohol Plant, winner of the California Department of Food and 
Agriculture's Ethanol Fuel Plant Design Competition: Floyd 
Butterfield's on-farm still operation in full, complete with 
blueprints. Plant Description, Plant Operating Manual, Plant 
Performance Data, Plant Construction Guide, Recommendations, 
Appendixes and eight blueprints of the still, cooker and operating 
set-up. Operates continuously, 24 hours per day, 10 gallons per hour 
of 190 proof ethanol. Includes screw press blueprints and 
construction details. With many thanks to Garle A. Webb.
http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library/Butterfield/butterfield1.html

>just to name a few.

I quite often quote Steve Spence saying here once that anything can 
be done badly and in 10 years we'll probably be fighting Big Ethanol 
tooth and nail like we fight Big Oil today. I think I got it right... 
Oh, here it is: "I have a niggling feeling that 10 years from now, 
the environmentalists will be fighting the ethanol industry tooth and 
nail. anything can be done badly, and I expect the ADM's of the world 
will be successful in turning a clean renewable resource into a dirty 
unsustainable one.."

>onec agin I want to say Iam sorry if I made any one
>mad in the Group.

Naah, not at all, but:

> > All that said, more discussion on fuel ethanol is welcome.

For which thankyou! Don't stop now:

> Do you make and use fuel ethanol?

:-)

Best wishes

Keith


>Jim Allen
>
>
>
>
>
>Keith Addison wrote:
>
> > >If people would think Ethanol Can be processed form jusy about any
> > >Vegetation not just corn and grain. Even Grass can yeild Ethanol. If
> > >fermented but your yeild would be lower. Jim Allen
> >
> > What makes you think people don't think? The people here most
> > certainly do think. Do a search in the archives for "ethanol"
> > (without the quotes) and see what you find. Well, here's what you'll
> > find:
> >
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=ethanol&list=biofuel
> > 
> >
> > - 3,950 messages dealing with ethanol, and another 560 here:
> >
> > http://archive.nnytech.net/in

Re: [biofuel] Ethanol fuel - was Re: SVO vs biodiesel - was Re: newby

[J Allen]

  Keith I'm not saying all people don't think And certainly not this 
group here.
What I am saying is a person on the street.  9 out of 10 people that 
know about
ethanol if you ask them how it is made or what it made out of they will corn
or grain.  I don't know if you heard about the new ethanol plant they 
are building in
Kansas and all the BS hype they gave it.  The people that are building 
it had public meetings
on the plant.  They had an oil co rep that told people how they would 
buy the ethanol and mix it with gas.  They told the farmers how that 
would pay top dollar for the grain and how everybody wins.
Bull what they didn't tell is the only winners will be the plant owners 
and the oil co becouse after
the ethanol is is processed and mixed with Fuel.
The spent grain  will be dryed and used in animal feed.  Like Dog food, 
Cat food And Cattle feed
just to name a few.  onec agin I want to say Iam sorry if I made any one 
mad in the Group. Jim Allen
 

 


Keith Addison wrote:

> >If people would think Ethanol Can be processed form jusy about any
> >Vegetation not just corn and grain. Even Grass can yeild Ethanol. If
> >fermented but your yeild would be lower. Jim Allen
>
> What makes you think people don't think? The people here most
> certainly do think. Do a search in the archives for "ethanol"
> (without the quotes) and see what you find. Well, here's what you'll
> find:
>
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=ethanol&list=biofuel 
> 
>
> - 3,950 messages dealing with ethanol, and another 560 here:
>
> http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=ethanol&list=biofuels-biz 
> 
>
> If you explore the other link at the end of every message you
> receive, this one:
>
> > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
> ... you'll find a whole ethanol section:
>
> http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html
> Ethanol
>
> http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html
> Ethanol resources on the Web
>
> ... as well as a lot of hands-on fuel ethanol information here:
>
> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html
> Biofuels Library - Journey to Forever
>
> ... including two ethanol fuel manuals, full-text online, and quite a
> few still designs.
>
> All that said, more discussion on fuel ethanol is welcome. Do you
> make and use fuel ethanol?
>
> Alex recently wrote this:
>
> >Hi,
> >I'm a newby.
> >My question - why people are more interested in biodiesel and not in an
> >ethanol?
> >In my opinion, ethanol is easier to make "from scratch" then biodiesel.
> >Regards,
> >Alex
>
> People are interested in fuel ethanol, but more people are probably
> interested in biodiesel. There are some reasons for that:
>
> 1) I doubt many would agree that ethanol is easier to make "from
> scratch" than biodiesel, and in useful quantities as fuel.
>
> 2) Diesels are more economical than spark-ignition engines, more
> efficient, and, indeed, cleaner.
>
> 3) There are some disadvantages to using fuel ethanol in a gasoline
> motor that biodiesel in a diesel doesn't share:
>
> (a) You need to modify the motor for ethanol use, enlarging the main
> jet, which means you can't simply switch back to gasoline without
> replacing the original jet, and computerised fuel systems are more
> complex; blending fuel ethanol with gasoline means the ethanol must
> be anhydrous, which is troublesome. With a diesel, you can switch
> between biodiesel and dinodiesel or use any combination without
> having to do anything.
>
> (b) Ethanol is rather corrosive (though not as corrosive as
> methanol), and engines have to be specially protected if they're to
> last without damage; there is no such issue with biodiesel.
>
> Best wishes
>
> Keith
>
> 
>
>
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>  
>
>
>
> Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
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>
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[biofuel] Ethanol fuel - was Re: SVO vs biodiesel - was Re: newby

[Keith Addison]

>If people would think Ethanol Can be processed form jusy about any
>Vegetation not just corn and grain. Even Grass can yeild Ethanol. If
>fermented but your yeild would be lower. Jim Allen

What makes you think people don't think? The people here most 
certainly do think. Do a search in the archives for "ethanol" 
(without the quotes) and see what you find. Well, here's what you'll 
find:

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=ethanol&list=biofuel

- 3,950 messages dealing with ethanol, and another 560 here:

http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?keywords=ethanol&list=biofuels-biz

If you explore the other link at the end of every message you 
receive, this one:

> > Biofuel at Journey to Forever:
> > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html

... you'll find a whole ethanol section:

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol.html
Ethanol

http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_link.html
Ethanol resources on the Web

... as well as a lot of hands-on fuel ethanol information here:

http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel_library.html
Biofuels Library - Journey to Forever

... including two ethanol fuel manuals, full-text online, and quite a 
few still designs.

All that said, more discussion on fuel ethanol is welcome. Do you 
make and use fuel ethanol?

Alex recently wrote this:

>Hi,
>I'm a newby.
>My question - why people are more interested in biodiesel and not in an
>ethanol?
>In my opinion, ethanol is easier to make "from scratch" then biodiesel.
>Regards,
>Alex

People are interested in fuel ethanol, but more people are probably 
interested in biodiesel. There are some reasons for that:

1) I doubt many would agree that ethanol is easier to make "from 
scratch" than biodiesel, and in useful quantities as fuel.

2) Diesels are more economical than spark-ignition engines, more 
efficient, and, indeed, cleaner.

3) There are some disadvantages to using fuel ethanol in a gasoline 
motor that biodiesel in a diesel doesn't share:

(a) You need to modify the motor for ethanol use, enlarging the main 
jet, which means you can't simply switch back to gasoline without 
replacing the original jet, and computerised fuel systems are more 
complex; blending fuel ethanol with gasoline means the ethanol must 
be anhydrous, which is troublesome. With a diesel, you can switch 
between biodiesel and dinodiesel or use any combination without 
having to do anything.

(b) Ethanol is rather corrosive (though not as corrosive as 
methanol), and engines have to be specially protected if they're to 
last without damage; there is no such issue with biodiesel.

Best wishes

Keith




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