Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
Correct Propane tanks are not high pressure. But a BLEVE IS a high pressure situation. Specifically when the maximum safe pressure of the cylinder has been breeched and the safety valve does not release the pressure sufficiently, quickly or at all. It was added strictly as a comparison to high pressure tanks which are inherently safer and better designed than your typical aluminum or mixed metal propane tank. Also as comparison to how some folks would feel safe with this thing under their grill full of explosive gas, but wouldnt feel safe with a canister of compressed air in a far better designed cylinder under a vehicle. Also in response to the EV vs Air Car debate. The purpose of my air tank vs battery comparison is not to say that one is better than the other. Both are viable options and better than a gas burner in any case. The air car is a good idea and while it it currently not cost effective to put them on the level with EV technology they will be In My Humble Opinion (IMHO) a viable replacement one day. The first electric car had similar performance characteristics as the first air cars currently do. If engineers had given up on the concept of an electric car we would not have the technology that powers todays EV's. This technology is very real and powered trains across this country for a very long time. The only difference is the air is stored instead of generated. In the same breath I believe Air Cars *will have* far less environmental impact than several hundred pounds of batteries. This is my opinion. I am not negating the positive values of EV's, I am simply looking at the long term possibilties for battery pollution vs human nature [to carelessly and knowingly leave the mess for someone else to clean up]. I do not want my post on air vs battery to be viewed as a negative against EV's or their owners. The purpose was solely to outline that the fear of a tank of highly compressed air is no more dangerous than sitting over 15 gallons of gasoline, or the 20lbs of low pressure propane sitting under your grill. In terms of danger I can send a frozen potatoe through 3/4" plywood at 50feet with little more than 8-10 psi of pressure. The amount found in your typical potatoe gun. My confetti canons (compressed air) operate at 80-150psi (depending on the paper load x distance) and I have operated them safely within several feet of an audience. Safety or perception of safety is a matter of personal opinion. If the normal consumer understood the mechanics behind the things that power their lives or cleaning chemicals or environmental impact of a lifestyle things would change alot faster than they are, until that point it will be the few well informed and those of creative inventive/marketing genuis that lead the way. I dont want to debate what alt. energy idea is better than the other. I just want folks to utilize them! respectfully, cordain dulles,va From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >What a lot of Hooeeey --- I've seen several large (and full, or >partially so) propane tanks that went thru a fire without any problem, and I >mean a fire that took the buildings down to the ground. Batteries aren't so >safe either -- all they need is a spark to set off the hyrogen gas, and they >explode. Propane tanks are NOT high pressure. A BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) from a propane tank in a fire is not a pretty sight. Several firemen in Arizona lost their lives in such an incident a few years ago. _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
Please respond to biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com cc:(bcc: Joseph Martelle/US/GM/GMC) Subject: Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's >What a lot of Hooeeey --- I've seen several large (and full, or >partially so) propane tanks that went thru a fire without any problem, and I >mean a fire that took the buildings down to the ground. Batteries aren't so >safe either -- all they need is a spark to set off the hyrogen gas, and they >explode. Propane tanks are NOT high pressure. A BLEVE (boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion) from a propane tank in a fire is not a pretty sight. Several firemen in Arizona lost their lives in such an incident a few years ago. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
> An EV's has a far greater potential to leak acid or short and make the > vehicle into a rolling welder or elephant sized cattle prod. Gelled or solid electrolytes can solve this problem. > (I can provide pictures at request) Please. I also would like to see some of these pictures [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
"doctor who" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > My point is that when you wrap a EV around a tree or have a serious accident > there is the potential for a Hazmat situation (drip or no drip it's still > acid and hydrogen), You only really have to worry about hydrogen buildup while charging, and then only if your ventilation is inadequate. Most modern batteries have a catalyst grid in their tops that recombines the majority of the oxygen and hydrogen before it escapes the battery case. > electrocution or electrical fire. Those are the real worries with EV's. > Whereas compressed air > is just that. Sweep up the pieces and go. Even if the pieces are 3 blocks away. > I'm still looking for some life span studies on batteries as compared to > compressed air. The folks over at Home Power Magazine can help you there. In home power stations old fashioned wet cell lead acid batteries if properly maintained last 10 years, and many last 20. In one of their experimental installations they're testing some wet cell nicads, and I remember reading that they had one cell which was 50 (fifty!) years old and still producing its rated capacity. > I cannot believe that the manufacture, maintenance and > disposal cost for batteries is lower than that of compressed air systems. Disposal cost is a nonissue. There are recyclers out there that will pay you for your old batteries. They won't pay you _much_, but the lead and plastic in the batteries are valuable. > If > so I better go replace my pnuematic jackhammer with one of those battery > operated rigs. Nah. When it comes to impact force pneumatics beat everything else except explosives. That's why jackhammers and impact drills were some of the first uses for industrial compressed air systems. > So what exactly is the volt/amp conversion to psi? My ratchet wrench at > 60psi is far more efficient than my 3/8" cordless 18volt drill. I doubt that, but don't have any figures to argue with. But be careful about demanding too much torque from one of those little ratchet wrenches. It's just a little turbine and little gears. If you demand too much torque out of them you'll wear out the gears. In the shop environment, where the air tools really shine is in safety. Since they don't throw any sparks they're a lot less likely to start fires, particularly when you have flamable fumes around. Also, you don't have to have extension cords around, just hoses, which are less likely to break. As an added bonus, hoses don't suffer from the same kind of power losses with length that extension cords do. An important consideration if your worksite is a hundred feet away from your nearest source of power. > So I am > assuming since it takes far less energy [electric energy utilized by the > compressor] from the pnuematic ratchet wrench to do the same amount of > torqued turning. This is based on similar RPM's/torque ranges. The same amount of torqued turning will take the same amount of energy at the tool tip. Any more or less energy will be taken up in internal losses, not just in the tool, but in whatever powers it. > It takes > approximatly an hours worth of energy to recharge the battery for an hours > usage. At a couple of hundred milliamps on the AC side. > While it is low voltage DC, alot of energy is wasted off as heat. Not as much as you might think. Cooling off hot compressed air wastes a lot more. > The > compressor takes five minutes of AC voltage to charge the tank for the same > amount of usage. At about 20~30 amps. An hour at an amp, or 15 minutes for 20 amps. You do the math. > Granted its low pressure compressor but even using a > 4500psi tank regulated down I can go all day on one tank. 4500 psi is not low pressure. > My battery tools > do not compare. Then either get more batteries, or bigger batteries. > By weight my air tools are much lighter than my equivilantly powered > electric tools (battery weight included). Are you including the weight of the tank in the weight of your air tools? > So if I apply the eqivilant > weights to a vehicle one could figure that a compressed air vehicle would > weigh signifigantly less than a high torque electric motor, battery bay and > the 4 miles of heavy gauge copper wire. Electric vehicles need the extra > power of batteries to propulse the added weight. Where do you get that 4 mile figure? Granted my direct experience with EV's is limited to golf carts, but I never saw anything like that much wire in them. I can't imagine that larger EV's take much more heavy guage wire than the golf carts, given its purpose. Granted we are talking an order of magnitude difference in the power required. Even reading the parts lists of some of the electric Rabbit conversions I didn't see anywhere near that length of wire. > On another note what is to stop someone from adding a generator/alternator > to one of the drag wheels to power a high e
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
Hi Cordain and All, --- doctor who <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > My point is that when you wrap a EV around a tree or > have a serious accident > there is the potential for a Hazmat situation (drip > or no drip it's still > acid and hydrogen), electrocution or electrical > fire. Whereas compressed air > is just that. Sweep up the pieces and go. There is little acid or H2 in lead batteries. The acid nowdays will only hurt your clothes unless left on for a while. Gasoline on your skin will burn it a lot faster. These or electrocution hasn't happened in any of the EV's that have crashed. These are not problems in real life. Get over it. > > I'm still looking for some life span studies on > batteries as compared to > compressed air. I cannot believe that the > manufacture, maintenance and > disposal cost for batteries is lower than that of > compressed air systems. If > so I better go replace my pnuematic jackhammer with > one of those battery > operated rigs. I'm running Flooded Ni-cads in my E-bike that are over 25 years old and still put out more than rated power. How long do you want them to last? If you include energy per mile Ev's will beat air by several times over 10 years. Let's stop the unrelated comparisions, OK? They only show how desperate you are to prove your point. > On another note what is to stop someone from adding > a generator/alternator > to one of the drag wheels to power a high efficiency > compressor? As long as > you dont exceed the maximum recovery rate of the > compressor, your station > refills could be limited to the occasional pressure > top off for those heavy > loads. This shows you really don't understand energy eff. Join the free energy list. >errands. You will never see a > practical EV long haul tractor trailer. And I have Unlike cars, tractor-trailers run at max power all the time making them eff. But even there hybird electric is about 25% better. > yet to see any EV that > will drive straight thru from Virginia to Florida at > highway speeds. I like > to get there without 8 hour layovers for the car to > charge. I've never seen a car that can do it either. Ev's can charge in 15 minutes . They do it all the time at LAX in their airport limo's. They run 24 hr a day just recharging while loading up new passengers. I would like to see your working example of an air car doing the same? Where are they? They don't exist, do they? Until you can show a real working example you are just hot air. So put up or be quite. > > Compressed air technology has the advantage of > substituting liquid gas for > compresssed gases for the purpose of increasing the > ranges. No they don't. Again this shows you don't know what you are talking about. Just how is liquid air going to increase your range? While it sounds good it has the problem that you have to put energy into it to turn it back into pressure. How you liquidfy air is you take all the energy out of it. Using the heat of the air to reexpand it thru heat exchangers will just clog the HE with ice. Will not work at all in winter. The only other way is to burn fuel to reheat it. > EV's stay > relativly constant with the amount of charge they > will contain and last time > I checked they still take several hours to gain a > full range charge. Another Apparently you haven't checked around much. > advantage is the wasted energy from gas expansion is > used to the cool the > vehilce. Do they make EV's with AC? Now there is one advantage of air power. And yes they make EV's with AC's. > > Sure it takes energy to power the compressors. I'd > love to see a high > compression plant powered by alternative energies. > If that where to be the > case than IMHO the EV car theory would be put aside > as the antiquated > technology it is. But you can still go 3 or 4 times as far on the same energy with an EV than an Air car. How eco is that? Please learn some before talking about things you obviously know little about. Take a science course. Good Luck, you'll need it, jerry dycus > > Respectfully, > Cordain > Dulles, VA > __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://promo2.yahoo.com/sbin/Yahoo!_BusinessNewsletter/survey.cgi http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
ing it to a recycler. a battery still produces more of your original input of energy than compressed air. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "doctor who" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's > > High pressure tanks do not fail randomly. A negelected or non-annually > inspected tank will fail at random. This is the fault of the operator not > the tank. A regularly inspected properly functioning tank (relief valve or > relief tube functioning) has a really low probability of failure during it's > *expected* service life. I know I strap one to my back and walk into fires. > > How tough are these tanks? I have banged a fully charged 4500psi fiberglass > wrapped tank THROUGH a mortar brick wall, through a sheetrock wall and > through a plaster wall all in one sitting. Not a scratch to the tank. Tank > passed pressure testing on the next inspection. > > For the purpose of demonstration they (Scott Air company) have "popped" a > high pressure tank in an explosion sheath. This involves putting a fully > charged tank inside and explosion resistant tube and blow the end off w/a > small explosive charge. The explosion tube contained all the "shrapnel" > allowing only the gas to escape. > > Fiberglass or expoy wrapped tanks are not only incredibly safe, but when > properly maintaned and inspected are much safer than half a ton of battery > acid. If I were in a car that had flipped several times and I was trapped > inside I would rather be in a air powered car rather than half a tonn of > battery acid dripping on me. > > According to the air car website the valves on this tank are mounted on the > side of the cylinders (as oppossed to the ends), so the "missle" or "rocket" > effect is minimal to none. > > Battery EV cars are one of the first horseless carraiges. They fell out of > popularity due to range problems and loss of horsepower on extended hills > and under load. Also the charging stations were large and not mobile. While > EV technology has advanced these cars are still dependant on batteries that > do not recycle easily or cheaply. Ultimatly disposal cost fall onto the end > user. Cylinder/valve replacement is not even half the cost of a single bay > of batteries for an EV. > > High pressure containers are safe. They do not just suddenly fail with out > provocation. Telling me stories of a failed "surplus" mil. container does > not surprise me. It is surplus for a reason. Also the story of a heated > scuba tank that failed in the trunk is another one of many Boiling Liquid > Expanding Vapour Explosions (BLEVE)stories. These type of explosions are > known are not uncommon on equipment with failed or non-functioning safety > relief valves/tabs. > > You are already surrounded by high pressure tanks. They are on numerous bbq > grills, attached to trailers. A vital part of the braking systems on heavy > duty vehicles. On HVAC systems to power thermostats. > Attached to your refigerator, your vehicles A/C system. On the backs of > several million firefighters in this country. etc...etc... > While they do contain an incredible amount of energy so does an electric > vehicle. There are millions more high pressure tanks in this country than > EV's. An EV's has a far greater potential to leak acid or short and make the > vehicle into a rolling welder or elephant sized cattle prod. (I can provide > pictures at request) > > Every kind of vehilce has some sort of danger to it. It requires a great > deal of energy to propulse a vehicle. Wether that stored energy be air or > electricity either can can kill you easily if it malfunctions. Personally I > find compressed air technology far more exciting than electric vehicles. > Sadly I do not believe this technology will be accepted here in the US > because it is too simple or maybe too clean. > > Safety is directly relative to the maintenance of the enduser. It will take > alot of convincing to tell me that a bay of hydrogen filled batteries is > safer than a glass wrapped tank that I have trial proven myself. One of our > bottles fell of the fire truck on a turn at 30mph, landed directly on the > rubberized valve. Broke the pressure meter, but containe
[biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
"doctor who" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > High pressure tanks do not fail randomly. A negelected or non-annually > inspected tank will fail at random. This is the fault of the operator not > the tank. A regularly inspected properly functioning tank (relief valve or > relief tube functioning) has a really low probability of failure during it's > *expected* service life. This is true. But look around at the cars you see on the road. How many of them get regular inspections? Some people have to be beaten about the head and shoulders to get their cars into the shop when things break, let alone for service and inspections. What do _you_ think would happen if high pressure tanks hit the mass market in vehicles? > I know I strap one to my back and walk into fires. And you have my respect for doing it, sir. Unlike most of the drivers I see around here I -=*ALWAYS*=- yield to fire/rescue vehicles. [Scott Air blown tank] > The explosion tube contained all the "shrapnel" > allowing only the gas to escape. Even that pressure wave can do a lot of damage. When the high pressure tank blew in the scuba shop the shrapnel damage was limited to the shop. The pressure wave broke windows for 3 blocks. > Fiberglass or expoy wrapped tanks are not only incredibly safe, but when > properly maintaned and inspected are much safer than half a ton of battery > acid. If I were in a car that had flipped several times and I was trapped > inside I would rather be in a air powered car rather than half a tonn of > battery acid dripping on me. So design the EV batteries with gelled or solid electrolyte. Anything that's going to be in a vehicle needs to be crashworthy. > According to the air car website the valves on this tank are mounted on the > side of the cylinders (as oppossed to the ends), so the "missle" or "rocket" > effect is minimal to none. Good idea, that. > High pressure containers are safe. They do not just suddenly fail with out > provocation. Telling me stories of a failed "surplus" mil. container does > not surprise me. It is surplus for a reason. Yep. A reason like the unit that once owned it has drawn down, cased its colors, and doesn't exist anymore. The tank in question was in hydro, and had not passed its design life. The design maximum pressure was 6000 psi and they were only being charged to 5000. The investigation found a cause, but I don't remember what it was. Being government surplus, the words "lowest bidder" come to mind. > Also the story of a heated > scuba tank that failed in the trunk is another one of many Boiling Liquid > Expanding Vapour Explosions (BLEVE)stories. These type of explosions are > known are not uncommon on equipment with failed or non-functioning safety > relief valves/tabs. A point _against_ high pressure tanks, I believe. If we start putting thousands of air powered cars on the road how long do you think it'll be before one of them has a relief valve fail and just the wrong time and pops? > You are already surrounded by high pressure tanks. They are on numerous bbq > grills, attached to trailers. Propane storage does not require thousands of psi, but merely hundreds. > A vital part of the braking systems on heavy > duty vehicles. Again, hundreds. > On HVAC systems to power thermostats. I can't speak to this on thermostats, but most of the ones I've seen have little tubes on them that I doubt could hold as much as a hundred psi. The high pressure in HVAC systems is in the refrigerant loops, anyway. And again, hundreds. > Attached to your refigerator, your vehicles A/C system. 350psi on the high side, or so my guage tells me. > On the backs of > several million firefighters in this country. etc...etc... Don't forget the scuba divers, both professional and amateur. And all of the airplanes that cary high pressure oxygen cylinders. > While they do contain an incredible amount of energy so does an electric > vehicle. There are millions more high pressure tanks in this country than > EV's. That's an apples and oranges comparison. A better comparison would be high pressure tanks to _batteries_. There may be millions of high pressure tanks in the world, but there are also millions of _batteries_. And there are fewer high pressure air powered vehicles than EV's. > An EV's has a far greater potential to leak acid or short and make the > vehicle into a rolling welder or elephant sized cattle prod. Gelled or solid electrolytes can solve this problem. > (I can provide pictures at request) Please. > Every kind of vehilce has some sort of danger to it. It requires a great > deal of energy to propulse a vehicle. Wether that stored energy be air or > electricity either can can kill you easily if it malfunctions. This is true. > Personally I > find compressed air technology far more exciting than electric vehicles. > Sadly I do not believe this technology will be accepted here in the
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
cordain, Thank you for that post on the comparative safety. The Scott air packs are a very safe item. Yes, I would like the air powered car, also. Because the technology is not available at this time, though, I am at present putting aside money for my EV conversion. For the very reasons you put forth in your post, my battery of choice will be the Optima 'Yellow-Tops'. They are not liquid acid filled. Yes, they are three times the price of regular lead-acid. I would like them to be cheaper, but I am willing to pay that for my safety and, if I should get into an accident, the safety of those working on the accident scene. (They are also purported to last longer than the regular lead-acid.) The design of the EV will include proper safety disconnects that will be noticeable to any emergency workers as such. The local fire department will get a look at the vehicle when it is completed. Pat McCotter _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Small business owners... Tell us what you think! http://promo2.yahoo.com/sbin/Yahoo!_BusinessNewsletter/survey.cgi http://us.click.yahoo.com/vO1FAB/txzCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
newer lead acids used a starved electrolyte scheme, where there is no acid to drip, even when cracked open. today's lead acids are easily and cheaply recycled, you just take the battery back to the place you purchased it from, and they are responsible for returning it to a recycler. a battery still produces more of your original input of energy than compressed air. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.com Palm Pilot Pages - http://www.webconx.com/palm X10 Home Automation - http://www.webconx.com/x10 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (212) 894-3704 x3154 - voicemail/fax We do not inherit the earth from our ancestors, we borrow it from our children. -- - Original Message - From: "doctor who" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, July 24, 2001 6:33 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's > > High pressure tanks do not fail randomly. A negelected or non-annually > inspected tank will fail at random. This is the fault of the operator not > the tank. A regularly inspected properly functioning tank (relief valve or > relief tube functioning) has a really low probability of failure during it's > *expected* service life. I know I strap one to my back and walk into fires. > > How tough are these tanks? I have banged a fully charged 4500psi fiberglass > wrapped tank THROUGH a mortar brick wall, through a sheetrock wall and > through a plaster wall all in one sitting. Not a scratch to the tank. Tank > passed pressure testing on the next inspection. > > For the purpose of demonstration they (Scott Air company) have "popped" a > high pressure tank in an explosion sheath. This involves putting a fully > charged tank inside and explosion resistant tube and blow the end off w/a > small explosive charge. The explosion tube contained all the "shrapnel" > allowing only the gas to escape. > > Fiberglass or expoy wrapped tanks are not only incredibly safe, but when > properly maintaned and inspected are much safer than half a ton of battery > acid. If I were in a car that had flipped several times and I was trapped > inside I would rather be in a air powered car rather than half a tonn of > battery acid dripping on me. > > According to the air car website the valves on this tank are mounted on the > side of the cylinders (as oppossed to the ends), so the "missle" or "rocket" > effect is minimal to none. > > Battery EV cars are one of the first horseless carraiges. They fell out of > popularity due to range problems and loss of horsepower on extended hills > and under load. Also the charging stations were large and not mobile. While > EV technology has advanced these cars are still dependant on batteries that > do not recycle easily or cheaply. Ultimatly disposal cost fall onto the end > user. Cylinder/valve replacement is not even half the cost of a single bay > of batteries for an EV. > > High pressure containers are safe. They do not just suddenly fail with out > provocation. Telling me stories of a failed "surplus" mil. container does > not surprise me. It is surplus for a reason. Also the story of a heated > scuba tank that failed in the trunk is another one of many Boiling Liquid > Expanding Vapour Explosions (BLEVE)stories. These type of explosions are > known are not uncommon on equipment with failed or non-functioning safety > relief valves/tabs. > > You are already surrounded by high pressure tanks. They are on numerous bbq > grills, attached to trailers. A vital part of the braking systems on heavy > duty vehicles. On HVAC systems to power thermostats. > Attached to your refigerator, your vehicles A/C system. On the backs of > several million firefighters in this country. etc...etc... > While they do contain an incredible amount of energy so does an electric > vehicle. There are millions more high pressure tanks in this country than > EV's. An EV's has a far greater potential to leak acid or short and make the > vehicle into a rolling welder or elephant sized cattle prod. (I can provide > pictures at request) > > Every kind of vehilce has some sort of danger to it. It requires a great > deal of energy to propulse a vehicle. Wether that stored energy be air or > electricity either can can kill you easily if it malfunctions. Personally I > find compressed air technology far more exciting than electric vehicles. > Sadly I do not believe this technology will be accepted here in the US > because it is too simple or maybe too clean. > > Safety is directly relative to the maintenance of the enduser. It will take > alot of convincing to tell me that a bay of hydrogen filled batteries is > safer than a glass wr
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
A propane cylinder does not exceed 37.5 PSI An air tank on a tractor trailer rarely exceeds 150 PSI Just to clarify.. To me, a 3500 PSI natural gas tank is more scary than a high pressure air tank, it's not the initial release of gas that I'd be scared of, it's the resulting explosion. > You are already surrounded by high pressure tanks. They are on numerous bbq > grills, attached to trailers. A vital part of the braking systems on heavy > duty vehicles. On HVAC systems to power thermostats. > Attached to your refigerator, your vehicles A/C system. On the backs of > several million firefighters in this country. etc...etc... > While they do contain an incredible amount of energy so does an electric > vehicle. There are millions more high pressure tanks in this country than > EV's. An EV's has a far greater potential to leak acid or short and make the > vehicle into a rolling welder or elephant sized cattle prod. (I can provide > pictures at request) > = http://devzero.ath.cx/ Visit the Systems Information Database Have some interesting information? Put it up on the SID. -Martin Klingensmith __ Do You Yahoo!? Make international calls for as low as $.04/minute with Yahoo! Messenger http://phonecard.yahoo.com/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
High pressure tanks do not fail randomly. A negelected or non-annually inspected tank will fail at random. This is the fault of the operator not the tank. A regularly inspected properly functioning tank (relief valve or relief tube functioning) has a really low probability of failure during it's *expected* service life. I know I strap one to my back and walk into fires. How tough are these tanks? I have banged a fully charged 4500psi fiberglass wrapped tank THROUGH a mortar brick wall, through a sheetrock wall and through a plaster wall all in one sitting. Not a scratch to the tank. Tank passed pressure testing on the next inspection. For the purpose of demonstration they (Scott Air company) have "popped" a high pressure tank in an explosion sheath. This involves putting a fully charged tank inside and explosion resistant tube and blow the end off w/a small explosive charge. The explosion tube contained all the "shrapnel" allowing only the gas to escape. Fiberglass or expoy wrapped tanks are not only incredibly safe, but when properly maintaned and inspected are much safer than half a ton of battery acid. If I were in a car that had flipped several times and I was trapped inside I would rather be in a air powered car rather than half a tonn of battery acid dripping on me. According to the air car website the valves on this tank are mounted on the side of the cylinders (as oppossed to the ends), so the "missle" or "rocket" effect is minimal to none. Battery EV cars are one of the first horseless carraiges. They fell out of popularity due to range problems and loss of horsepower on extended hills and under load. Also the charging stations were large and not mobile. While EV technology has advanced these cars are still dependant on batteries that do not recycle easily or cheaply. Ultimatly disposal cost fall onto the end user. Cylinder/valve replacement is not even half the cost of a single bay of batteries for an EV. High pressure containers are safe. They do not just suddenly fail with out provocation. Telling me stories of a failed "surplus" mil. container does not surprise me. It is surplus for a reason. Also the story of a heated scuba tank that failed in the trunk is another one of many Boiling Liquid Expanding Vapour Explosions (BLEVE)stories. These type of explosions are known are not uncommon on equipment with failed or non-functioning safety relief valves/tabs. You are already surrounded by high pressure tanks. They are on numerous bbq grills, attached to trailers. A vital part of the braking systems on heavy duty vehicles. On HVAC systems to power thermostats. Attached to your refigerator, your vehicles A/C system. On the backs of several million firefighters in this country. etc...etc... While they do contain an incredible amount of energy so does an electric vehicle. There are millions more high pressure tanks in this country than EV's. An EV's has a far greater potential to leak acid or short and make the vehicle into a rolling welder or elephant sized cattle prod. (I can provide pictures at request) Every kind of vehilce has some sort of danger to it. It requires a great deal of energy to propulse a vehicle. Wether that stored energy be air or electricity either can can kill you easily if it malfunctions. Personally I find compressed air technology far more exciting than electric vehicles. Sadly I do not believe this technology will be accepted here in the US because it is too simple or maybe too clean. Safety is directly relative to the maintenance of the enduser. It will take alot of convincing to tell me that a bay of hydrogen filled batteries is safer than a glass wrapped tank that I have trial proven myself. One of our bottles fell of the fire truck on a turn at 30mph, landed directly on the rubberized valve. Broke the pressure meter, but contained the gas, show me a battery that would do as well. Or evem show me a battery that will not burn in a car-fire. Car fires are quite common when cars collide with each other or stationary objects (like trees). The vehicles electrical system will often short and start a fast burning fire (which is why firefighters take the keys out of the ingnitions of crash cars). Tell me you would rather be in this lead/acid hyrdrogen bomb rather than a compressed air vehicle. The compressed air tank may explode, but it will be contained. Tell me a bay of batteries will fare as well. Respectfully, cordain dulles, va From: "Alan S. Petrillo" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com To: biofuel Subject: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's . Big high pressure tanks make me nervous. Back in the early '80's I saw the result of a scuba tank exploding in the trunk of someone's car. It was parked in the sun during one of our lovely Florida summers. The blow off val
Re: [biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
What a lot of Hooeeey --- I've seen several large (and full, or partially so) propane tanks that went thru a fire without any problem, and I mean a fire that took the buildings down to the ground. Batteries aren't so safe either -- all they need is a spark to set off the hyrogen gas, and they explode. And what's in the tank of that vehicle you're driving? If it's diesel, okay, but if it's gasoline, you've got a potential bomb there that makes dynamite look like a sick puppy. So, even if you're driving a diesel yourself, you better stay far, far away from all those gasoline vehicles. I used to have a landlady who wouldn't let me park my pickup next to the house --- "that internal combustion machine might explode".8-) "Alan S. Petrillo" wrote: > > Big high pressure tanks make me nervous. > > Back in the early '80's I saw the result of a scuba tank exploding in > the trunk of someone's car. It was parked in the sun during one of our > lovely Florida summers. The blow off valve had stuck shut. It blew the > body of the car apart just as completely as a bomb would have, and > damaged several other cars parked near it. It's a miracle nobody was > hurt. > > A few years back an aquaintance of mine had a scuba shop out on > Clearwater Beach. He was using some large government surplus high > pressure tanks made of fiberglass for high pressure storage so he could > run his compresser at night, when electricity costs less, to charge them > up. Early one morning one of them blew up. It destroyed his shop, and > broke windows for 3 blocks. Again, it was a miracle nobody was hurt. > > A friend of mine deals in welding gasses. One of his delivery guys had > a large cylinder of welding oxygen fall off of his truck. They cylinder > valve broke off, and the thing took off like a rocket. It went through > the wall of a building a quarter of a mile away, and came to rest on > someone's desk. (Imagine finding _that_ in your inbox!) > > I say again, high pressure storage in any volume makes me nervous. I > won't even ride the CNG fueled busses if I can avoid it because the > thought of those big high pressure cylinders a couple of feet above my > head gives me the willies. While I'm driving I give them a _wide_ > berth, and prefer to view them from a distance in my rearview mirror. I > know there hasn't been an explosion of any of these busses yet, but I > don't want to be in or even near the first one when it goes. > > >Plus on an EV the batts can be put to absorb the > > crash forces like mine does. Battery acid isn't a > > problem either. How many times have a battery been a > > problem in an ICE. With as many crashes as they have > > had I've never heard of a problem. > > A friend of mine had the battery in his car crack several years ago. > The only problem was that it caused the steel body panel to which it was > attached to rust through in a couple of days. > > Personally, I'll take the electric over the air powered vehicle anytime! > > > -- > Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than > a career. Aviation is a way of life. > A second language for the world: www.esperanto.org > Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste. www.distributed.net > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ -- Harmon Seaver, MLIS CyberShamanix Work 920-203-9633 [EMAIL PROTECTED] Home 920-233-5820 [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.cybershamanix.com/resume.html Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] RE: air car's indirect pollution vs EV's
"kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > and personally, i'd feel safer riding a windbag than > > a leadsled. > Until you get in a crash and your 3000, 4500 PSI > tanks blow up. Have you ever seen one of these blow, > not pretty. Big high pressure tanks make me nervous. Back in the early '80's I saw the result of a scuba tank exploding in the trunk of someone's car. It was parked in the sun during one of our lovely Florida summers. The blow off valve had stuck shut. It blew the body of the car apart just as completely as a bomb would have, and damaged several other cars parked near it. It's a miracle nobody was hurt. A few years back an aquaintance of mine had a scuba shop out on Clearwater Beach. He was using some large government surplus high pressure tanks made of fiberglass for high pressure storage so he could run his compresser at night, when electricity costs less, to charge them up. Early one morning one of them blew up. It destroyed his shop, and broke windows for 3 blocks. Again, it was a miracle nobody was hurt. A friend of mine deals in welding gasses. One of his delivery guys had a large cylinder of welding oxygen fall off of his truck. They cylinder valve broke off, and the thing took off like a rocket. It went through the wall of a building a quarter of a mile away, and came to rest on someone's desk. (Imagine finding _that_ in your inbox!) I say again, high pressure storage in any volume makes me nervous. I won't even ride the CNG fueled busses if I can avoid it because the thought of those big high pressure cylinders a couple of feet above my head gives me the willies. While I'm driving I give them a _wide_ berth, and prefer to view them from a distance in my rearview mirror. I know there hasn't been an explosion of any of these busses yet, but I don't want to be in or even near the first one when it goes. >Plus on an EV the batts can be put to absorb the > crash forces like mine does. Battery acid isn't a > problem either. How many times have a battery been a > problem in an ICE. With as many crashes as they have > had I've never heard of a problem. A friend of mine had the battery in his car crack several years ago. The only problem was that it caused the steel body panel to which it was attached to rust through in a couple of days. Personally, I'll take the electric over the air powered vehicle anytime! -- Aviation is more than a hobby. It is more than a job. It is more than a career. Aviation is a way of life. A second language for the world: www.esperanto.org Processor cycles are a terrible thing to waste. www.distributed.net Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> The Nissan Sentra Everything but compact http://NissanDriven.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/3vsIKC/txlCAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
