[biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > SNIP > > > I have to thank you for two things, > > You are putting some adrenalin in this debate, were many of us had a > feeling of resignation. > > and > > You provide a very good example of what we're up against. Hakan, your insight is amazing! And right on point! > > I am aware of that it is nothing I can say, that will make you study the > background for your opinions a little bit better. What I think is most > scaring for most of us, is that other people would belive your unqualified > opinions. Until now, I only had easy statements from you and no background > for them. I do not know if you are aware of your method of propaganda or if > you are a victim of others, my guess is that you are a victim. Because if > you are an instigator you would not try it in this auditorium. > > The technique is easy and effective. First you define your goal and that is > why I think you are a victim, because you have no goal. Then you formulate > a few number of punch lines that supports your goal, it does not matter if > they are true or not as long as they are persuasive and have the right > emotional effect on your listeners. Then you repeat your punch lines on all > available occasions and avoid to get into concrete discussions about them. > After a while, you will have a lot of people who belive you and that are > prepared to support you. Some of them will not belive you, but since you > are successful, they want to be a part of that success also and will > support you. Hakan, you have helped me to see through the fog of my too-close personal involvement in this issue. You have just described exactly what I am attempting to work against locally. Maybe now I can again get my focus where it needs to be. > > To enhance your technique, I suggest that you turn on your TV and listen to > the news. It is especially demonstrated today, with all that is going on at > the moment. Regarding MTBE, a friend is a very strong argument but all > documentation points to an inventive disposal method from the oil industry. > Please do not insult me, by telling me that I cannot read. > > Hakan > I'm unaaware of any religious affiliation you may have, if any, but may your God(s) Bless you, Sir. Motie This issue is taking it's Toll on my Mental, Emotional and Physical health. (and financial) I'm unable to maintain gainful employment. I'll step back again, knowing the issue is in good hands. All of the above is also meant to apply to Keith. Thanks Guys! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >Is it not true that nelson mandela killed numerous people and >injured more by >lanting a bomb in a train station? No that is not true. The Johannesburg station bombing is a famous incident and it had nothing to do with Nelson Mandela, who was in jail at the time facing treason charges. It was planted by members of the Communist Party (whites). Mandela was not a member of the Communist Party and was not even a Marxist. >Bearing this in mind is he any better than >any other terrorist? Why don't you at least try to check your "facts" first? Fred just said, correctly, that the former political regime in South Africa is not to be believed, and yet it still seems to have credibility in certain quarters. People see that Mandela was jailed for "sabotage", they do not check the facts of the case, though I posted them in a previous response, and nor do they check what sabotage actually meant during the state of emergency and the suspension of rights and the rule of law during the 1960s, when all this happened. "Sabotage" was so widely defined that the painting of a slogan on a wall could be defined as sabotage and could be punishable by death. Mandela was jailed on trumped-up charges of economic sabotage, not for planting bombs that killed people. The terrorists in white South Africa were uniformed white policeman and shadowy police spies and agents provocateur who murdered many dissidents (and their family members, including children) by means of letter bombs, car bombs, and so on - classic terrorist tactics. Ruth First, Marius Schoon's wife and daughter, many others, were murdered by these government terrorists. It is not in doubt, the culprits have admitted it. Do a search for Craig Williamson, for instance. But you accuse Mandela. In fact you're slandering him, as did McPherson. Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
An other anonymous contributor or maybe the same? Mandela was not charged of being a bomber nor was he convicted. I have copied Keith answer on this at an earlier occasion. At 12:02 PM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Is it not true that nelson mandela killed numerous people and injured >more by >lanting a bomb in a train station? Bearing this in mind is he any better than >any other terrorist? It's not only ridiculous, it's plain wrong, as I said. What happened in the REAL world, Richard, is that Mandela was NOT a convicted bomber as you claim. He was captured and sentenced to five years' hard labour for leaving the country illegally and for inciting a labour strike. While in prison, he was charged with the other nine Rivonia triallists for plotting to overthrow the government - treason, which carried the death penalty. However, it was deemed unwise to hang him, so the charge was changed and he was sentenced to life imprisonment on four trumped up counts of economic sabotage. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Is it not true that nelson mandela killed numerous people and injured more by lanting a bomb in a train station? Bearing this in mind is he any better than any other terrorist? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Thank you Lisa, I will start to use it also. Hakan At 05:53 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >Here's a quote I use regularly in my sig line: > >"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply >the lie was believed. It wasn't the world being round that agitated >people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of >lies has been sold to the masses over generations, the truth will seem >utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." >-- Dresden James > >(not sure who he was (is?), but gotta like the way he thinks!) > > > >Lisa Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Richard McPherson Finally I have a name and a correct identification of the person I talk to. It took some time before you had the guts to tell who you are and still, maybe you are not the one you claim to be. It must be quite awesome to have the need to hide behind other identities, like you tried with Motie. I have to thank you for two things, You are putting some adrenalin in this debate, were many of us had a feeling of resignation. and You provide a very good example of what we're up against. I am aware of that it is nothing I can say, that will make you study the background for your opinions a little bit better. What I think is most scaring for most of us, is that other people would belive your unqualified opinions. Until now, I only had easy statements from you and no background for them. I do not know if you are aware of your method of propaganda or if you are a victim of others, my guess is that you are a victim. Because if you are an instigator you would not try it in this auditorium. The technique is easy and effective. First you define your goal and that is why I think you are a victim, because you have no goal. Then you formulate a few number of punch lines that supports your goal, it does not matter if they are true or not as long as they are persuasive and have the right emotional effect on your listeners. Then you repeat your punch lines on all available occasions and avoid to get into concrete discussions about them. After a while, you will have a lot of people who belive you and that are prepared to support you. Some of them will not belive you, but since you are successful, they want to be a part of that success also and will support you. To enhance your technique, I suggest that you turn on your TV and listen to the news. It is especially demonstrated today, with all that is going on at the moment. Regarding MTBE, a friend is a very strong argument but all documentation points to an inventive disposal method from the oil industry. Please do not insult me, by telling me that I cannot read. Hakan At 07:42 AM 10/17/2002 -0400, you wrote: >You all are so easily mislead. Of course many of the people who support >Greenpeace are not terrorists. However, they unwittingly support terrorism. >In the case of Mandela he was a terrorist of the worst kind a person who set >off bombs killing people. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it to revise >history and have people like yourselves by into it. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Richard McPherson wrote: >You all are so easily mislead. Of course, Richard, you're the only wise one here, the only one in step. >Of course many of the people who support >Greenpeace are not terrorists. However, they unwittingly support terrorism. So do you. "Yes, but they're OUR terrorists." You supported Bin Laden when he was YOUR terrorist, with your tax dollars. So why not say about your government and your military and your intelligence (?) services what you're saying about Greenpeace? >In the case of Mandela he was a terrorist of the worst kind a person who set >off bombs killing people. That's a lie, Mr McPherson. Mandela killed nobody. As I said, and as you yourself said, you take no notice of whatever might not agree with you, clearly a lifelong habit. You have not read my quite detailed enough response to you on this, not worth your time, eh? So you waste everybody else's time here making the same stupid and slanderous assertions all over again. As I said in that response, I was there at the time, and much involved, while you were at home with your eyes closed steeped in your prejudices and bigotry. I provided references, if you have any integrity at all go and check them and respond to them like an honest person. Or go away. >It never ceases to amaze me how easy it to revise >history and have people like yourselves by into it. Ho-hum. >Keith. Do not have to concern yourself with my responding to your misleading >statements. Spread lies all you want. You're the one doing that, I'm countering your lies, everything is on my side in this, including history unrevised, and there's nothing on yours except your bigotry, which will undoubtedly in the end bring you what you deserve. Prove I'm spreading lies, McPherson. I challenge you. I've already proved you're spreading them. Disprove it. I question your integrity. I say you have none. Defend yourself like an honest man or stand condemned as a dishonest one. >You get what you deserve. Indeed I do, and no complaints. >A >government full of way to many tax payer supported leaches taking from you >and your family. Huh? What government? What family? You think we're all Americans here? And if we're not, either we should be or there's no need to take any notice of us, eh? Pathetic. I'm not an American, I don't live there, I think America's a great country and a great people, and does not deserve to be burdened by people like you. >Like I said the revision of history is so simple and you >believe it and spread those untruths. Silly parities do not let you escape. >Richard McPherson Take note, Mr McPherson, don't keep on flinging the same mud and ignoring what people have said to you in the meantime, or simply denying it without reason. This is a discussion list, and that does not qualify as discussion, only as prejudice. Keith Addison Moderator Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > In the case of Mandela he was a terrorist of the worst kind a person who set off bombs killing people. > Please provide the proof that this was indeed fact. Documentation will either prove that you are telling the truth or not. I am not willing to believe this or anything said unless it is established as fact. Please cite at least three sources of this information. Do not include documents of the former political structure in South Africa. They cannot be believed. Until you provide this do not post anything on the topic. It is very annoying. fred Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Keith. Do not have to concern yourself with my responding to your misleading statements. Spread lies all you want. You get what you deserve. A government full of way to many tax payer supported leaches taking from you and your family. Like I said the revision of history is so simple and you believe it and spread those untruths. Silly parities do not let you escape. Richard McPherson [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
You all are so easily mislead. Of course many of the people who support Greenpeace are not terrorists. However, they unwittingly support terrorism. In the case of Mandela he was a terrorist of the worst kind a person who set off bombs killing people. It never ceases to amaze me how easy it to revise history and have people like yourselves by into it. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Hi Hakan >Keith, > >I only want to tell that I never thought that it was Motie who wrote it, >since it did not come from his email address and it is not his style. No, Motie would not say such things. But Mr McPherson is careless. >From >one who have been working in 30 countries, I cannot understand Mr >McPherson's views. Baffling. But on the other hand, I suppose Osama bin Laden could also claim that. Actually I'd expect Bin Laden to be a lot more aware than this. >My experience is that the more countries you have been >in close contact with, the less likelihood that you have a one sided view >and make statements like his. One must be blind, deaf, stupid and asleep if >one do. I think that's what I told him last time round, re Mandela - he might as well have stayed at home with his eyes closed. But it certainly happens. I remember an Englishman trying to get his big millionaire's yacht fixed at a boatyard in Spain, a well-travelled man. He was shouting and getting furious, and of course the more he shouted the less cooperation he got. Finally he lost his temper. I happened to be nearby and he turned to me and bellowed: "The trouble with these bloody foreigners is they can't even speak English!" I don't think that man was capable of learning anything. >Nelson Mandela is one of the world's greatest leaders in modern history and >recognized for it when he still is alive. I did not respond to this about >Greenpeace and terrorist organization, because it was so stupid, but >thank's that you did. What he said about Mandela offended me, and I'm sure not just me. Scurrilous. >I have several friends who are active in Greenpeace >and they are for sure not terrorists. If he wanted anyone to belive that, >the incident on NZ and the case around it prove the opposite. I think it's clear that Mr McPherson doesn't care about minor issues like truth. Wilful blindness is not the most attractive of human traits. What you and I are saying here "isn't worth reading", as far as he's concerned, he knows better. Sad. Regards Keith >Hakan > > > >Mr McPherson, Motie didn't write that, you did. And Hakan is quite > >right to complain about your selective snipping. You're rather > >selective about a lot of things it seems, especially what you see and > >would rather not see. All the evidence so far is that if somebody on > >the list disagrees with you, Hakan, me, Todd, anyone, and disproves > >what you're saying or provides a more balanced view than, you'll > >simply ignore it as, according to you, "what most people rant about > >what they think is going on in the world", not bother to respond when > >they've proved you completely wrong, and no doubt happily continue to > >be completely wrong. You never did respond to this: > >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=17272&list=BIOFUEL > > > >And I'm sure you'll still say that Mandela is a "convicted bomber and > >Marxist". Debunking this foolish and baseless slander took me time > >that would better have been spent elsewhere, the whole thing was > >nothing but a distraction to the list, and no doubt you found "it > >does no good even to read it". This is typical of your style on the > >list - it's a discussion list, but you're not prepared to discuss or > >defend your views, all you do is chuck a dead rat on the carpet every > >now and then and walk away with your nose in the air. That and spam > >your Dipetane. > > > >Hakan said he often doesn't agree with Greenpeace, I added that they > >cheat sometimes, we often criticise the big enviro groups. It's > >balanced enough. But your bullshit that they're a "terrorist > >organization" and the rest of it is nought but blind bigotry, as with > >Mandela. If you don't have anything to contribute other than bigotry, > >denial, distraction and spam, please be quiet. > > > >Keith Addison Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Keith, I only want to tell that I never thought that it was Motie who wrote it, since it did not come from his email address and it is not his style. From one who have been working in 30 countries, I cannot understand Mr McPherson's views. My experience is that the more countries you have been in close contact with, the less likelihood that you have a one sided view and make statements like his. One must be blind, deaf, stupid and asleep if one do. Nelson Mandela is one of the world's greatest leaders in modern history and recognized for it when he still is alive. I did not respond to this about Greenpeace and terrorist organization, because it was so stupid, but thank's that you did. I have several friends who are active in Greenpeace and they are for sure not terrorists. If he wanted anyone to belive that, the incident on NZ and the case around it prove the opposite. Hakan >Mr McPherson, Motie didn't write that, you did. And Hakan is quite >right to complain about your selective snipping. You're rather >selective about a lot of things it seems, especially what you see and >would rather not see. All the evidence so far is that if somebody on >the list disagrees with you, Hakan, me, Todd, anyone, and disproves >what you're saying or provides a more balanced view than, you'll >simply ignore it as, according to you, "what most people rant about >what they think is going on in the world", not bother to respond when >they've proved you completely wrong, and no doubt happily continue to >be completely wrong. You never did respond to this: >http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=17272&list=BIOFUEL > >And I'm sure you'll still say that Mandela is a "convicted bomber and >Marxist". Debunking this foolish and baseless slander took me time >that would better have been spent elsewhere, the whole thing was >nothing but a distraction to the list, and no doubt you found "it >does no good even to read it". This is typical of your style on the >list - it's a discussion list, but you're not prepared to discuss or >defend your views, all you do is chuck a dead rat on the carpet every >now and then and walk away with your nose in the air. That and spam >your Dipetane. > >Hakan said he often doesn't agree with Greenpeace, I added that they >cheat sometimes, we often criticise the big enviro groups. It's >balanced enough. But your bullshit that they're a "terrorist >organization" and the rest of it is nought but blind bigotry, as with >Mandela. If you don't have anything to contribute other than bigotry, >denial, distraction and spam, please be quiet. > >Keith Addison > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Lisa <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Here's a quote I use regularly in my sig line: > > "A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply > the lie was believed. It wasn't the world being round that agitated > people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of > lies has been sold to the masses over generations, the truth will seem > utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." > -- Dresden James > > (not sure who he was (is?), but gotta like the way he thinks!) > > > > Lisa Lisa, You have no idea how much I appreciate the support. I got to the end of my rope a year ago, and what's left of it is very badly frayed. I don't dare jerk on it right now. I'm tied up in Lawsuits and Bureaucratic bungling and 'attempted' intimidations. I don't intimidate easily, but I did send my wife out of state for a while. She'll be back at an undisclosed time. I have NO plans to back off or compromise my principals in the face of rampant corruption. Heartfelt Thanks, Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Greenpeace - was Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
>In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:20:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > Hakan: Do you admire Greenpeace for staging the killing of the baby seals? > > Do you admire Greenpeace for giving fundraisers up to 40% of the funds they > > collect tax free and promoting a lifestyle where people do not work or pay > > taxes and you and I have to support them to the detriment of our own > > families? Do you admire Greenpeace blowing up things and sinking vessels? > > Do you admire Greenpeace for being a terrorist organization? Richard Mr McPherson, Motie didn't write that, you did. And Hakan is quite right to complain about your selective snipping. You're rather selective about a lot of things it seems, especially what you see and would rather not see. All the evidence so far is that if somebody on the list disagrees with you, Hakan, me, Todd, anyone, and disproves what you're saying or provides a more balanced view than, you'll simply ignore it as, according to you, "what most people rant about what they think is going on in the world", not bother to respond when they've proved you completely wrong, and no doubt happily continue to be completely wrong. You never did respond to this: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?view=17272&list=BIOFUEL And I'm sure you'll still say that Mandela is a "convicted bomber and Marxist". Debunking this foolish and baseless slander took me time that would better have been spent elsewhere, the whole thing was nothing but a distraction to the list, and no doubt you found "it does no good even to read it". This is typical of your style on the list - it's a discussion list, but you're not prepared to discuss or defend your views, all you do is chuck a dead rat on the carpet every now and then and walk away with your nose in the air. That and spam your Dipetane. Hakan said he often doesn't agree with Greenpeace, I added that they cheat sometimes, we often criticise the big enviro groups. It's balanced enough. But your bullshit that they're a "terrorist organization" and the rest of it is nought but blind bigotry, as with Mandela. If you don't have anything to contribute other than bigotry, denial, distraction and spam, please be quiet. Keith Addison Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Yes that was French agents and they were convicted i NZ court. Later expelled to France against the promise that they would serve the sentence there. I did not try to confuse any, I just thought that their nationality was irrelevant in a discussion about principles. This kind of things goes on and are practiced by many arrogant nations. To set the record straight, the vessel was blown up to stop the ongoing protest about the French tests of nuclear bombs, which in itself destroyed the islands that were used. Hakan At 08:34 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/16/2002 5:13:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > I have physically seen the ship in NZ soon after the event > > and the police records, who clearly identifies the terrorists as > government > > > > agents. That was the French, please do not try and confuse people. > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
But who was he? I googled over 100URLs for these and no bibliography info. de Juvenal was just under one of his and I couldn't leave it out. Kirk The ideal tyranny is that which is ignorantly self-administered by its victims. The most perfect slaves are, therefore, those which blissfully and unawaredly enslave themselves. Dresden James http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/q136299.html When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic. Dresden James http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/d/q136280.html Sacred cows make the best hamburgers. [Dresden James] http://www.therapure.com/quipsnquotes/beliefs.htm "If the Federal government is not once again enslaved, the American people will be." -- Dresden James http://216.239.53.100/search?q=cache:wxOF-MZ4nZgC:www.fulltimefreedom.com/qu otes.html+%22Dresden+James%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8 Better a sovereign in squalor than slave in splendor. --Dresden James A society of sheep must in time beget a government of wolves. --Betrand de Juvenal http://privateprofits.com/seminars/iget6.htm When I was a boy I was told that anybody could become President; I'm beginning to believe it. - Clarence Darrow http://www.cornertheweb.com/cpop/interesting_quotes.htm -Original Message- From: Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2002 3:54 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against. I absolutely agree it must be countered, but I am nearly burnt-out from countering this same stuff over and over. These are the guys who are as accepted as the Gospel. The rest of us are perceived as Blasphemous, and dismissed without ever listening to us. I am getting a reputation as a Crackpot for attempting to refute any of this 'stuff'. Those of us interested in alternative fuels are perceived in teh same light as those who have made claims for Over-Unity Devices. We aren't taken seriously by those who accept this 'stuff' as common knowledge. Here's a quote I use regularly in my sig line: "A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." -- Dresden James (not sure who he was (is?), but gotta like the way he thinks!) Lisa Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
In a message dated 10/16/2002 5:13:44 PM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > I have physically seen the ship in NZ soon after the event > and the police records, who clearly identifies the terrorists as government > > agents. That was the French, please do not try and confuse people. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Dear Richard, I am quite tired on this kind of trimming of what I write and deliberate misinterpretations of what I am saying. You do not have to prove that often, that I was right in my opinion about trimming and censorship. If you read my whole message, it should be clear that it was their ability to get publicity, and not necessarily their issues. I do not contribute to Greenpeace, because I do not agree with many of their methods and simplification of issues. I do not agree with the US lobbying methods either and the people involved in it and I do not agree with using kickbacks in any organization, including Greenpeace. I do not agree with staging of killing of baby seals and I do not agree with the clubbing of seals that goes on either. To stage a cruel act for the record is equally or more despicable than the original act. I do not support them blowing up vessels and I do not support those who blow up their vessels. I have physically seen the ship in NZ soon after the event and the police records, who clearly identifies the terrorists as government agents. I do not support any kind of terror, even the ones who are done in the name of National interest, it is no viable excuses for terror and it does not matter if it is for the cause of Israel or Palestine. I am against the death penalty, since it cannot be any excuses for anyone to take human life. Any more questions? If not, let us go back to the motive for the discussion on how we can effectively should counter the oil snakes arguments. Hakan At 03:01 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:20:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > Hakan: Do you admire Greenpeace for staging the killing of the baby > seals? > > Do you admire Greenpeace for giving fundraisers up to 40% of the funds > they > > collect tax free and promoting a lifestyle where people do not work or pay > > taxes and you and I have to support them to the detriment of our own > > families? Do you admire Greenpeace blowing up things and sinking > vessels? > > Do you admire Greenpeace for being a terrorist organization? Richard > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Dear Richard, I am quite tired on this kind of trimming of what I write and deliberate misinterpretations of what I am saying. You do not have to prove that often, that I was right in my opinion about trimming and censorship. If you read my whole message, it should be clear that it was their ability to get publicity, and not necessarily their issues. I do not contribute to Greenpeace, because I do not agree with many of their methods and simplification of issues. I do not agree with the US lobbying methods either and the people involved in it and I do not agree with using kickbacks in any organization, including Greenpeace. I do not agree with staging of killing of baby seals and I do not agree with the clubbing of seals that goes on either. To stage a cruel act for the record is equally or more despicable than the original act. I do not support them blowing up vessels and I do not support those who blow up their vessels. I have physically seen the ship in NZ soon after the event and the police records, who clearly identifies the terrorists as government agents. I do not support any kind of terror, even the ones who are done in the name of National interest, it is no viable excuses for terror and it does not matter if it is for the cause of Israel or Palestine. I am against the death penalty, since it cannot be any excuses for anyone to take human life. Any more questions? If not, let us go back to the motive for the discussion on how we can effectively should counter the oil snakes arguments. Hakan At 03:01 PM 10/16/2002 -0400, you wrote: >In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:20:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > > > Hakan: Do you admire Greenpeace for staging the killing of the baby > seals? > > Do you admire Greenpeace for giving fundraisers up to 40% of the funds > they > > collect tax free and promoting a lifestyle where people do not work or pay > > taxes and you and I have to support them to the detriment of our own > > families? Do you admire Greenpeace blowing up things and sinking > vessels? > > Do you admire Greenpeace for being a terrorist organization? Richard > > > > > >[Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
>Motie, > >I have the same feeling of frustration. > >Hakan Hey, cheer up folks, we're winning! Motie, nobody's going to put you in a rubber room just yet - maybe you're tearing your hair out, but what you say is very sensible and to the point, not irrational at all, nor incoherent. No need to stop, please don't clam up on us. It's not just that people who're too lazy to do their own thinking use this discredited "research" and ignore the debunkings, it's also that that's what they want to think, they already agree, and they also don't care whether it's true or not. Hakan just pointed out the immense bias of the MTBE bail-out. For sure Hakan is not the only person to notice such things. There are MANY such things, and one hears ominous rumblings, there's a rising tide of rejection. People aren't as dumb as these smug and arrogant liars and spinners like to think, nor as short on memory. Take heart. Keith >At 05:19 PM 10/16/2002 +, you wrote: > >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > Keith, > > > > > > You are right, they are all a part of the snake in the Paradise, > >not that I > > > belive in this evolution story, but as a prejudice in the old law > >(bible) > > > of human behavior the story is quite good. It has to be countered, > >but how > > > to make it efficient? > > > > > > Internet might give us the chance to counter, at least the power of > > > publicity is more democratic today. I have in many senses admired > >the > > > actions of Greenpeace, even if I in many cases do not agree with > >the > > > simplicity and polarization they stand for. > > > > > > To counter the messages from the snake is not really the problem, > >to > > > distribute the message and get people to read is. For this it needs > > > cooperation and coherence. > > > > > > Hakan > > > > > > > Hakan, > > I think we are in agreement as to what the problem is, but how to > >effectively counter it is the next question. > > Pimentel has been refuted and debunked by numerous people, but > >his 'research' is still accepted and is used as a reference by those > >who are too lazy to do their own studies. Then that 'study' is used > >as a reference by someone else. > > > > Motie > > I have to recuse myself from further discussion on this topic. My > >frustration level is too high to remain rational and coherent. I > >don't want to be the next guy in the White Van in Maryland. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
In a message dated 10/16/2002 10:20:28 AM Pacific Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > Hakan: Do you admire Greenpeace for staging the killing of the baby seals? > Do you admire Greenpeace for giving fundraisers up to 40% of the funds they > collect tax free and promoting a lifestyle where people do not work or pay > taxes and you and I have to support them to the detriment of our own > families? Do you admire Greenpeace blowing up things and sinking vessels? > Do you admire Greenpeace for being a terrorist organization? Richard > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Plan to Sell a Home? http://us.click.yahoo.com/J2SnNA/y.lEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
I absolutely agree it must be countered, but I am nearly burnt-out from countering this same stuff over and over. These are the guys who are as accepted as the Gospel. The rest of us are perceived as Blasphemous, and dismissed without ever listening to us. I am getting a reputation as a Crackpot for attempting to refute any of this 'stuff'. Those of us interested in alternative fuels are perceived in teh same light as those who have made claims for Over-Unity Devices. We aren't taken seriously by those who accept this 'stuff' as common knowledge. Here's a quote I use regularly in my sig line: "A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. It wasn't the world being round that agitated people, but that the world wasn't flat. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker a raving lunatic." -- Dresden James (not sure who he was (is?), but gotta like the way he thinks!) Lisa Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home for Top $ http://us.click.yahoo.com/RrPZMC/jTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
Motie, I have the same feeling of frustration. Hakan At 05:19 PM 10/16/2002 +, you wrote: >--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Keith, > > > > You are right, they are all a part of the snake in the Paradise, >not that I > > belive in this evolution story, but as a prejudice in the old law >(bible) > > of human behavior the story is quite good. It has to be countered, >but how > > to make it efficient? > > > > Internet might give us the chance to counter, at least the power of > > publicity is more democratic today. I have in many senses admired >the > > actions of Greenpeace, even if I in many cases do not agree with >the > > simplicity and polarization they stand for. > > > > To counter the messages from the snake is not really the problem, >to > > distribute the message and get people to read is. For this it needs > > cooperation and coherence. > > > > Hakan > > > > Hakan, > I think we are in agreement as to what the problem is, but how to >effectively counter it is the next question. > Pimentel has been refuted and debunked by numerous people, but >his 'research' is still accepted and is used as a reference by those >who are too lazy to do their own studies. Then that 'study' is used >as a reference by someone else. > > Motie > I have to recuse myself from further discussion on this topic. My >frustration level is too high to remain rational and coherent. I >don't want to be the next guy in the White Van in Maryland. > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Keith, > > You are right, they are all a part of the snake in the Paradise, not that I > belive in this evolution story, but as a prejudice in the old law (bible) > of human behavior the story is quite good. It has to be countered, but how > to make it efficient? > > Internet might give us the chance to counter, at least the power of > publicity is more democratic today. I have in many senses admired the > actions of Greenpeace, even if I in many cases do not agree with the > simplicity and polarization they stand for. > > To counter the messages from the snake is not really the problem, to > distribute the message and get people to read is. For this it needs > cooperation and coherence. > > Hakan > Hakan, I think we are in agreement as to what the problem is, but how to effectively counter it is the next question. Pimentel has been refuted and debunked by numerous people, but his 'research' is still accepted and is used as a reference by those who are too lazy to do their own studies. Then that 'study' is used as a reference by someone else. Motie I have to recuse myself from further discussion on this topic. My frustration level is too high to remain rational and coherent. I don't want to be the next guy in the White Van in Maryland. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Home Selling? Try Us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/QrPZMC/iTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: An example of what we're up against.
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Well, the Heritage Foundation, what can you expect? It's part of the > far-right anti-environmental movement. Associated with the > Competitive Enterprise Institute, along with Michael Fumento, and the > Reason Foundation, which receives Big Tobacco funding, and so on. > Reason magazine's editor is tobacco industry apologist Jacob Sullum. > Associated with Steven Milloy, Alex Avery and so on. All the usual > suspects. > > All the same folks really. Right-wing industry-flack clones. > Look-alike Astroturf groups. Liars one and all and they know it. > David Pimentel is of course quite at home with people like this. > > Trouble is it's effective, these people are influential, they succeed > in swaying opinion. It can't just be dismissed as bullshit, it has to > be countered. > > Keith > Hi Keith, I absolutely agree it must be countered, but I am nearly burnt-out from countering this same stuff over and over. These are the guys who are as accepted as the Gospel. The rest of us are perceived as Blasphemous, and dismissed without ever listening to us. I am getting a reputation as a Crackpot for attempting to refute any of this 'stuff'. Those of us interested in alternative fuels are perceived in teh same light as those who have made claims for Over-Unity Devices. We aren't taken seriously by those who accept this 'stuff' as common knowledge. Before we can find a solution to a problem, we must define the problem. I see the problem as being ignorance on the part of anyone who believes this 'stuff' without any evidence to support it. Unfortunately, the people with political clout and influence fall for it. The topic is beyond their comprehension, so they blindly accept whatever the read as Truth if it is presented in an officious manner. I beleive this is the major problem with getting through to the ignorant Bureuacrats in charge of issueing permits and writing regulations. This is major misinformation and is harmful to all of us when it is accepted as Factual. Can we sue for damages? A Class-action Suit, with all the citizens of the world as Plaintiffs? My apologies to all for my frustrations coming out so strong. No offense is intended to anyone on this list. Looking for solutions, Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Sell a Home with Ease! http://us.click.yahoo.com/SrPZMC/kTmEAA/jd3IAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
