[biofuel] Re: Brazil Ethanol
Thankyou Dave. Very interesting. Good for you! Schumacher didn't particularly write Small is Beautiful (Economics as if People Mattered) for the 3rd World. He developed the Appropriate Technology approach as an adjunct to appropriate economics (technology as if people mattered), also not particularly for the 3rd World, but that's about the only place you ever find either of them. The rich countries (industrialized nations or whatever, but I refuse to call them developed nations) are much too well defended. You're right, that's just what's going to happen with hydrogen. Unless people who fiddle with stuff in their backyards and back-40s do something about it. So how is it that in a democracy people don't have any effective say over how their tax dollars are used? Then it's not a democracy. I think H.D. Thoreau had the answer to that, didn't he? http://eserver.org/thoreau/civil.html Best Keith (I went to a Biocycle conference in MN last week and am not impressed). Why not? Please tell us more. The conference itself was quite astonishing. Put on by Biocycle magazine, a reliable source of news and technical information related to renewable energy from organics waste recycling, I was introduced to countless businessmen in the field, and to the latest in technology. Indeed I was impressed by many things including the incorporation of methane digesters into the cultural landscape of midwest dairy farmers and their environments. I was not impressed, however, by the feasibilty of bio-hydrogen production. I'm sure you are all aware of the debate over the upcoming trojan horse that is hydrogen (it appears friendly but when you look inside you'll find coal, natural gas and nuclear interests--currently 90% of commercial H2 is produced from natural gas). I was hoping that at this conference I wold learn about ways that hydrogen could be produced and managed by using local technology and local tools. This was not the case though my questions were well recieved by the speakers and even more by the audience (I made many friends). Being the only one under 30, and certainly the only one with dreadlocks, it would have been easy for them to toss out my questions as idealistic if they were not so well founded. I mentioned the appropriate technology approach, how we must solve the problems of rural societies before the problems of urban societies will be managed--they will be amplified under urban conditions (ideas borrowed from Small is Beautiful). With that in mind, I asked, how may I, as a farmer, use this technology? Will I have to rely on buying your materials and subcontracting construction? And once constructed will I have any additional outside entities on which I must rely? Their answers were short and to the point. Hydrogen from lingocellulosic feedstock, photosynthesizing paints, or algea is only (economically) feasibile at the large scale. I bit my tounge. It only appears feasible at a large scale because costs are hidden and shifted onto the public. If you don't already know this, open your eyes people, we are funding the coming age of hydrogen by the way our tax dollars are being spent. That statement is not meant to be an attack, perhaps a call to action (what political action besides biofuels I do not know). It is nothing new. The conference was great and I intend no slander to any of the researchers or organizers. They laid out the case as clear as day. Hydrogen is happening and it will not be sustainable though it may appear so on the surface. Indeed a trojan horse. Dave Shaw Alcohol Can Be a Gas! (and you *can* make H2 out of it, but CH4 would make more sense!) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Brazil Ethanol
(I went to a Biocycle conference in MN last week and am not impressed). Why not? Please tell us more. The conference itself was quite astonishing. Put on by Biocycle magazine, a reliable source of news and technical information related to renewable energy from organics waste recycling, I was introduced to countless businessmen in the field, and to the latest in technology. Indeed I was impressed by many things including the incorporation of methane digesters into the cultural landscape of midwest dairy farmers and their environments. I was not impressed, however, by the feasibilty of bio-hydrogen production. I'm sure you are all aware of the debate over the upcoming trojan horse that is hydrogen (it appears friendly but when you look inside you'll find coal, natural gas and nuclear interests--currently 90% of commercial H2 is produced from natural gas). I was hoping that at this conference I wold learn about ways that hydrogen could be produced and managed by using local technology and local tools. This was not the case though my questions were well recieved by the speakers and even more by the audience (I made many friends). Being the only one under 30, and certainly the only one with dreadlocks, it would have been easy for them to toss out my questions as idealistic if they were not so well founded. I mentioned the appropriate technology approach, how we must solve the problems of rural societies before the problems of urban societies will be managed--they will be amplified under urban conditions (ideas borrowed from Small is Beautiful). With that in mind, I asked, how may I, as a farmer, use this technology? Will I have to rely on buying your materials and subcontracting construction? And once constructed will I have any additional outside entities on which I must rely? Their answers were short and to the point. Hydrogen from lingocellulosic feedstock, photosynthesizing paints, or algea is only (economically) feasibile at the large scale. I bit my tounge. It only appears feasible at a large scale because costs are hidden and shifted onto the public. If you don't already know this, open your eyes people, we are funding the coming age of hydrogen by the way our tax dollars are being spent. That statement is not meant to be an attack, perhaps a call to action (what political action besides biofuels I do not know). It is nothing new. The conference was great and I intend no slander to any of the researchers or organizers. They laid out the case as clear as day. Hydrogen is happening and it will not be sustainable though it may appear so on the surface. Indeed a trojan horse. Dave Shaw Alcohol Can Be a Gas! (and you *can* make H2 out of it, but CH4 would make more sense!) Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Brazil Ethanol
20% of all vehicles in Brazil run on 100% ethanol. How is it that they are so successful in implementing a renewable resource while they are a poorer country than the U.S? What are the arguments against converting all of the US to run 100% on ethanol? Edward, your last question is a good one. While Brazil is abundant in all resepects, I do believe they had a push at some point in time, I think the 1920-30s, by our dear friend R. Buckminster Fuller. Fuller visited the area and helped advise on a trajectory for economic self-reliance and independence from US oil hegemony. Any information regarding his visit and what I just said would be appreciated. This is just what I've heard. Every year the US produced more and more ethanol, and I believe we will far exceed the 5 billion gal/yr mark which is a goal of newer energy legislation. While highly mechanical and centralized 15mil+/gal/yr ethanol plants are subsidized and made to look economically feasible, we are all aware of the fact that the sun does not spread its love in any centralized manner. There are hidden costs. Solar fuels exist in a decentralized web across the globe. For this reason my biofuels advocacy strategy is with farm-scale fuel produciton worldwide, be it ethanol, biodiesel, svo, methane or bio-based hydrogen (I went to a Biocycle conference in MN last week and am not impressed). Dave Shaw Alcohol Can Be a Gas! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Brazil Ethanol
Hello Dave 20% of all vehicles in Brazil run on 100% ethanol. How is it that they are so successful in implementing a renewable resource while they are a poorer country than the U.S? What are the arguments against converting all of the US to run 100% on ethanol? Edward, your last question is a good one. While Brazil is abundant in all resepects, I do believe they had a push at some point in time, I think the 1920-30s, by our dear friend R. Buckminster Fuller. Fuller visited the area and helped advise on a trajectory for economic self-reliance and independence from US oil hegemony. Any information regarding his visit and what I just said would be appreciated. This is just what I've heard. I think we'd all like to hear more about that. Got this much (or this little rather): He was an adviser to a variety of governments, including the U.S., France, Brazil, China, India and Russia. 1942 Prepared five year plan for industrialization of Brazil presented by President Roosevelt to President Vargas of Brazil. Every year the US produced more and more ethanol, and I believe we will far exceed the 5 billion gal/yr mark which is a goal of newer energy legislation. While highly mechanical and centralized 15mil+/gal/yr ethanol plants are subsidized and made to look economically feasible, we are all aware of the fact that the sun does not spread its love in any centralized manner. :-) Well put. There are hidden costs. Solar fuels exist in a decentralized web across the globe. For this reason my biofuels advocacy strategy is with farm-scale fuel produciton worldwide, be it ethanol, biodiesel, svo, methane or bio-based hydrogen That's very much our focus, at Journey to Forever and here too as much as possible. It's the only way towards real solutions that will work rather than just fiddling with one or another symptom of a systemic ailment, which might seem to work but it won't stop the disease. May I amplify farm-scale? I think that's a useful way of putting it, except that while it's the right size and scope with the right connotations of localness and connectedness, it needn't be part of a farm. Very useful projects of just this type can easily be run in inner-city neighbourhoods. We need a good, catchy term that captures all this. It's eluded me so far - farm-scale, local-scale, local-level, community-level... These issues and sustainable food and community food security issues have so much in common. Farms, food miles, small farms, CSAs, local farmers' markets, farmers' coops, city farms... especially city farms. They're providing up to 30% of the food supply or something close to that with the use of no land at all, while accomplishing essential sanitation and waste recycling tasks that cities themselves can't seem to achieve. Local biofuels initiatives can dovetail with that so neatly. (I went to a Biocycle conference in MN last week and am not impressed). Why not? Please tell us more. regards Keith Dave Shaw Alcohol Can Be a Gas! Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/index.php?list=biofuel Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
