Re: [biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye -
Hi Paul > > Um, yes. Duh! I don't mind admitting it all looks like fly-shit to > > me. Well, not quite, I can follow it up to a point but easily get > > lost. Should've guessed the arrows though. > >Wouldn't worry too much about it Keith its all in house stuff. >Each discipline has its own jargon, show me some shorthand or typesetting >instructions and I wouldn't have a clue what it was all about. >Thats what we are all here for, to pool our knowledge, help each other out >and bounce ideas off each other. You're so right, thankyou. >(quite a bit lost in the translation I'm afraid ,the hydroxide ion should be >represented as OH with a superscript minus after it. > > > It appears that the water molecule is more readily reduced than the > > > Na+ ion. This is entirely reasonable when you consider the addition > > > of sodium metal to water results in the spontaneous reaction : > > > > > > 2 Na (solid) + 2 H2O ---> 2 Na+ + H2 (g) + 2 OH -- >Not far wrong about that spontaneous reaction. Teachers at my school used to >perform what they called the "Red Sea Experiment". A paper boat would be >constructed by one of the students. The boat would be floated on water in a >large glass phneumatic trough (fancy words used to describe glass dish about >30cm diam and 15cm high usually used when collecting gas in a gas jar by >displacement of water). Some phenolphalein indicator had been mixed into the >water previously. This indicator is colourless in acidic or neutral >solutions but turns bright pink/purple in alkaline solution. >A piece of sodium was then placed in the boat. As the paper absorbed water >the boat would sink lower in the water. Bilge water would react with the >sodium. The reaction gave off hydrogen and generated much heat causing the >hydrogen to burst into flames. This in turn set fire to the boat which would >burn to the waterline exposing more of the sodium to water The reaction >also created alkaline conditions (the sodium hydroxide produced) within the >water causing the phenolphthalein to turn bright pink/purple. Very >spectacular when it works right but the problem is the unpredictable burn >rate of the sodium. The reaction rate is to a large extent dependent upon >the skill of the boat builder. Often the reaction is so fierce that the >sodium is liquified and hydrogen forms beneath/within it creats explosions >which scatter burning liquid sodium for some distance. Very spectacular >unless you happen to be in range. Some of our labs have burn marks on the >ceiling as testimony of that little bit too much sodium. Experiment has been >banned by head of department for safety reasons. Ah all the excitement has >gone out of chemistry these days. We all learn by mistakes especially >memorable ones, just so long as we are still around to remenber. :-) Nice yarn! What's a lab without burn marks on the ceiling? What's a kitchen without burn marks on the ceiling, LOL! Thanks Paul, I grasp this a bit better now. Lori's Caveman Chemistry link is interesting, could be the answer. Looks like it comes from a lab that might have burn marks on the ceiling. Regards Keith >Regards Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/aHOo4D/KJoEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye
Hi Lori, nice to hear from you again, it's been a long time. >See: > >http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/projects/chloralkali/index.html This looks like the one, great. He's quite droll about it too. Scroll down to "Instructions" and click on the picture, there's a step-by-step in a java popup (what's that do, make toast with your coffee?). Pity about the chlorine though. How to mix the hydrogen and the chlorine to make hydrochloric acid? And what to do with the hydrochloric acid? >and > >http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/projects/soap/ > >Lori Nice book Kevin Dunn's written, "Caveman Chemistry". Good on him. Regards Keith >At 03:32 PM 2002-09-02 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: > > >For NaOH, we had some information that you can make sodium hydroxide > >from table salt. Kirk sent me this below awhile back, from a paper he > >wrote (hope you don't mind Kirk), but it's too technical for me and > >left me with a lot of questions. I've been wanting to take it further > >- maybe we can discuss it here? > > > >We need a simple recipe - do this, do that, how rather than why. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Looking for a more powerful website? Try GeoCities for $8.95 per month. Register your domain name (http://your-name.com). More storage! No ads! http://geocities.yahoo.com/ps/info http://us.click.yahoo.com/aHOo4D/KJoEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye
See: http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/projects/chloralkali/index.html and http://cator.hsc.edu/~kmd/caveman/projects/soap/ Lori At 03:32 PM 2002-09-02 +0900, Keith Addison wrote: >For NaOH, we had some information that you can make sodium hydroxide >from table salt. Kirk sent me this below awhile back, from a paper he >wrote (hope you don't mind Kirk), but it's too technical for me and >left me with a lot of questions. I've been wanting to take it further >- maybe we can discuss it here? > >We need a simple recipe - do this, do that, how rather than why. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye
I'm glad you guys discuss it. I really am. A long time ago ... I've heard of destructive distillation. I guess I figured that ... since I haven't kept my ear to the ground for awhile ... that someone had figured out another, better way (now that "we're in the new millenium!!). I guess not huh?? The lye ... my other post explained to "how does it work" question I have ... so I won't repeat it. The reaction of table salt ... yeah I'm quite familiar with that. Problem is though ... well, for one thing, platinum electrode once again - ties us to civilization. Not "backyard". And the efficiency is the other thing. With the Table Salt reaction ... sodium hydroxide comes out of the reaction at a "electrolyze water to get hydrogen" rate. Past posts of the "future hydrogen economy" on this list does not paint too rosy of a picture about electrolysing water to make hydrogen ... stating power efficiency as a counter-argument. H lye is produced atom for each atom of H2. That would tell me that it might not be so efficient as to be practical. Well, for the home brewer anyways .. I'll go look at the archives you mentioned Thanks, Curtis --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That's long been our goal. It's often been discussed here - last time, for methanol ... as yet, destructive distillation seems to be the only method available For lye, Todd mentions KOH from wood ash, the traditional way For NaOH, we had some information that you can make sodium hydroxide from table salt. The anode should be "Acheson graphite, for chloride solutions" - not so easy to find, it seems, any common substitutes? snip-- Since, in general, it is important that the anode should be attacked as little as possible during electrolysis, we are confined to the use of platinum, iridium, palladium, carbon, iron, and nickel for processes that take place in alkaline solution, and to the platinum metals and carbon for those carried out in acid solution. Anodes of lead dioxide may be employed in sulfuric acid solutions. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye -
Just going down my email from latest to earliest (so I might find something in an earlier post). The thing about the liquid mercury doesn't sound like something I'd enjoy doing in my garage. Especially if the reaction is to produce lye in car-fuel quantities. This wood-ash KOH, yeah, I've heard rumors of that!! Now THAT sounds like a "back-country" way!! Thing is ... I never could understand "how" wood-ash somehow generates KOH "lye". Do you "just" pour water through the ash ... and out comes "instant" lye. Or is the process more involved than that??? Chemistry nuts: what reacts with what to form the KOH?? I can only think of wood as carbon ... let's see ... reacts with oxygen to for carbon dioxide. Contains hydrogen .. hmm ... water. What forms the KOH?? Curtis --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: That doesn't sound very kitchen-friendly Paul. Maybe there isn't a kitchen-friendly way, eh? Wood-ash KOH then I guess. = Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes http://finance.yahoo.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye -
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 5:56 PM Subject: [biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye - > Hi Paul > > > > It got a bit garbled in transmission, not sure what this character > > > might have been: → > > > >Keith looks like the mystery garble should have been an arrow or > >gives/yields. > > Um, yes. Duh! I don't mind admitting it all looks like fly-shit to > me. Well, not quite, I can follow it up to a point but easily get > lost. Should've guessed the arrows though. Wouldn't worry too much about it Keith its all in house stuff. Each discipline has its own jargon, show me some shorthand or typesetting instructions and I wouldn't have a clue what it was all about. Thats what we are all here for, to pool our knowledge, help each other out and bounce ideas off each other. > >ie : 2 Cl -- ---> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e -- (electrons) chloride ions gas electrons (chloride ions as existing in the ionic state in sodium chloride solution) > >Whether the arrows are oneway or two way I'm not sure in all cases. > >Then below should read > > > > > > ... Consider the electrolysis(application of an electric current via two electrodes) of a water solution of sodium chloride > > (common table salt). At the anode (the negative electrode)the product is, as one might > > expect, chlorine gas. > > > > anode : > > 2 Cl -- ---> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e -- (electrons) > > > > Bubbles of hydrogen form at the cathode;(the positive electrode) the solution immediately surrounding this electrode becomes strongly basic. This evidence indicates that a water molecule rather than a sodium ion is being > > reduced : > > > > cathode : > > 2 H2O + 2 e -- --->H2 (g) + 2 OH -- > > (quite a bit lost in the translation I'm afraid ,the hydroxide ion should be represented as OH with a superscript minus after it. > > It appears that the water molecule is more readily reduced than the > > Na+ ion. This is entirely reasonable when you consider the addition > > of sodium metal to water results in the spontaneous reaction : > > > > 2 Na (solid) + 2 H2O ---> 2 Na+ + H2 (g) + 2 OH -- Not far wrong about that spontaneous reaction. Teachers at my school used to perform what they called the "Red Sea Experiment". A paper boat would be constructed by one of the students. The boat would be floated on water in a large glass phneumatic trough (fancy words used to describe glass dish about 30cm diam and 15cm high usually used when collecting gas in a gas jar by displacement of water). Some phenolphalein indicator had been mixed into the water previously. This indicator is colourless in acidic or neutral solutions but turns bright pink/purple in alkaline solution. A piece of sodium was then placed in the boat. As the paper absorbed water the boat would sink lower in the water. Bilge water would react with the sodium. The reaction gave off hydrogen and generated much heat causing the hydrogen to burst into flames. This in turn set fire to the boat which would burn to the waterline exposing more of the sodium to water The reaction also created alkaline conditions (the sodium hydroxide produced) within the water causing the phenolphthalein to turn bright pink/purple. Very spectacular when it works right but the problem is the unpredictable burn rate of the sodium. The reaction rate is to a large extent dependent upon the skill of the boat builder. Often the reaction is so fierce that the sodium is liquified and hydrogen forms beneath/within it creats explosions which scatter burning liquid sodium for some distance. Very spectacular unless you happen to be in range. Some of our labs have burn marks on the ceiling as testimony of that little bit too much sodium. Experiment has been banned by head of department for safety reasons. Ah all the excitement has gone out of chemistry these days. We all learn by mistakes especially memorable ones, just so long as we are still around to remenber. Regards Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye -
Hi Paul > > It got a bit garbled in transmission, not sure what this character > > might have been: → > >Keith looks like the mystery garble should have been an arrow or >gives/yields. Um, yes. Duh! I don't mind admitting it all looks like fly-shit to me. Well, not quite, I can follow it up to a point but easily get lost. Should've guessed the arrows though. >ie : 2 Cl -- ---> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e -- (electrons) >Whether the arrows are oneway or two way I'm not sure in all cases. >Then below should read > > > ... Consider the electrolysis of a water solution of sodium chloride > (common table salt). At the anode the product is, as one might > expect, chlorine gas. > > anode : > 2 Cl -- ---> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e -- (electrons) > > Bubbles of hydrogen form at the cathode; the solution immediately > surrounding this electrode becomes strongly basic. This evidence > indicates that a water molecule rather than a sodium ion is being > reduced : > > cathode : > 2 H2O + 2 e -- --->H2 (g) + 2 OH -- > > It appears that the water molecule is more readily reduced than the > Na+ ion. This is entirely reasonable when you consider the addition > of sodium metal to water results in the spontaneous reaction : > > 2 Na (solid) + 2 H2O ---> 2 Na+ + H2 (g) + 2 OH -- > > Thus, one can then argue that any sodium ions produced by > electrolysis would immediately react with water to produce H2 >molecules and OH -- ions so the net reaction is that listed for the > cathode. > > To obtain the overall reaction for the electrolysis of a water > solution of sodium chloride, combine the anode and cathode reactions > to give : > > 2 Cl -- + 2 H2O ---> Cl2 (gas) + H2 (gas) + 2 OH -- > > One effect of this cell reaction is the replacement of the chloride > ions originally present by an equal number of hydroxide ions. > Consequently, evaporation of the solution remaining after > electrolysis yields a residue of sodium hydroxide: > > electrolysis : > 2 Cl -- + 2 H2O --->Cl2 (g) + H2 (g) + 2 OH -- > > evaporation : > 2 Na+ + 2 OH -- ---> 2 NaOH (solid) > > > --- > > 2 Na+ + 2 Cl -- + 2 H2O ---> 2 NaOH (s) + Cl2 (g) + H2 (g) > > The greater part of the sodium hydroxide and almost all the chlorine > made is prepared by the electrolysis of aqueous sodium chloride; > hydrogen is an important by-product. > > In electrolytic oxidation the number of electrode materials (anode) > is more limited than in reduction processes. Since, in general, it > is important that the anode should be attacked as little as possible > during electrolysis, we are confined to the use of platinum, iridium, > palladium, carbon, iron, and nickel for processes that take place in > alkaline solution, and to the platinum metals and carbon for those > carried out in acid solution. Anodes of lead dioxide may be employed > in sulfuric acid solutions. Of these anodes, iron and nickel have > the lowest oxygen over-voltages. For general work, the most suitable > anodes are: (1) lead, for sulfate solutions; (2) Acheson graphite, > for chloride solutions; and (3) pure nickel or a high-nickel steel > for alkaline solutions. > > >If memory serves me right (which is less often these days) in the commercial >process mercury is used for one of the electrodes. It runs beneath a molten >bath of sodium chloride. As the sodium is formed it dissolves in the >mercury. The mercury is circulated through the cell and into another >reaction vessel where water is added to the mercury. The sodium metal forms >sodium hydroxide and hydrogen with the water. That doesn't sound very kitchen-friendly Paul. Maybe there isn't a kitchen-friendly way, eh? Wood-ash KOH then I guess. Best wishes Keith >Regards Paul. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Making methanol and lye -
- Original Message - From: Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 4:32 PM Subject: Making methanol and lye - was Re: [biofuel] Another "biodieselfrom ethanol" story > It got a bit garbled in transmission, not sure what this character > might have been: → Keith looks like the mystery garble should have been an arrow or gives/yields. ie : 2 Cl -- ---> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e -- (electrons) Whether the arrows are oneway or two way I'm not sure in all cases. Then below should read ... Consider the electrolysis of a water solution of sodium chloride (common table salt). At the anode the product is, as one might expect, chlorine gas. anode : 2 Cl -- ---> Cl2 (gas) + 2 e -- (electrons) Bubbles of hydrogen form at the cathode; the solution immediately surrounding this electrode becomes strongly basic. This evidence indicates that a water molecule rather than a sodium ion is being reduced : cathode : 2 H2O + 2 e -- --->H2 (g) + 2 OH -- It appears that the water molecule is more readily reduced than the Na+ ion. This is entirely reasonable when you consider the addition of sodium metal to water results in the spontaneous reaction : 2 Na (solid) + 2 H2O ---> 2 Na+ + H2 (g) + 2 OH -- Thus, one can then argue that any sodium ions produced by electrolysis would immediately react with water to produce H2 molecules and OH -- ions so the net reaction is that listed for the cathode. To obtain the overall reaction for the electrolysis of a water solution of sodium chloride, combine the anode and cathode reactions to give : 2 Cl -- + 2 H2O ---> Cl2 (gas) + H2 (gas) + 2 OH -- One effect of this cell reaction is the replacement of the chloride ions originally present by an equal number of hydroxide ions. Consequently, evaporation of the solution remaining after electrolysis yields a residue of sodium hydroxide: electrolysis : 2 Cl -- + 2 H2O --->Cl2 (g) + H2 (g) + 2 OH -- evaporation : 2 Na+ + 2 OH -- ---> 2 NaOH (solid) --- 2 Na+ + 2 Cl -- + 2 H2O ---> 2 NaOH (s) + Cl2 (g) + H2 (g) The greater part of the sodium hydroxide and almost all the chlorine made is prepared by the electrolysis of aqueous sodium chloride; hydrogen is an important by-product. In electrolytic oxidation the number of electrode materials (anode) is more limited than in reduction processes. Since, in general, it is important that the anode should be attacked as little as possible during electrolysis, we are confined to the use of platinum, iridium, palladium, carbon, iron, and nickel for processes that take place in alkaline solution, and to the platinum metals and carbon for those carried out in acid solution. Anodes of lead dioxide may be employed in sulfuric acid solutions. Of these anodes, iron and nickel have the lowest oxygen over-voltages. For general work, the most suitable anodes are: (1) lead, for sulfate solutions; (2) Acheson graphite, for chloride solutions; and (3) pure nickel or a high-nickel steel for alkaline solutions. If memory serves me right (which is less often these days) in the commercial process mercury is used for one of the electrodes. It runs beneath a molten bath of sodium chloride. As the sodium is formed it dissolves in the mercury. The mercury is circulated through the cell and into another reaction vessel where water is added to the mercury. The sodium metal forms sodium hydroxide and hydrogen with the water. Regards Paul. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> 4 DVDs Free +s&p Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/MVfIAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
