[biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Hi Brian >Keith, > >I'd like to add my thanks for all you and others do here and on the >JTF site. You're welcome Brian, and thankyou in return. >And, I'd like to say that there has not yet been a time >that a fly has shown up in the ointment that I haven't learned >something. People's responses to those "flies" are always quite >enlightening, so I say keep 'em coming. After all, isn't the >purpose of all of this to share knowledge? Yes, of course. But not everybody knows how to share, it takes a spirit of cooperation, which I tend to see as sort of basic to being human, but it can be and often is shoved aside by other things - competitiveness, selfishness, greed, arrogance, even cultural differences, all of which we've seen here. All forms of insecurity I think, overloud protests. Just a minority, a small one. Mainly we share. As for "flies", well, maybe you're right, but the signal-to-noise ratio is less than ideal, and who's got the time for it? Not me, not anymore. Best wishes Keith >Brian > >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "malcolm maclure" ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Keith, sorry I've not got back to you, been working away. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM ~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Keith, I'd like to add my thanks for all you and others do here and on the JTF site. And, I'd like to say that there has not yet been a time that a fly has shown up in the ointment that I haven't learned something. People's responses to those "flies" are always quite enlightening, so I say keep 'em coming. After all, isn't the purpose of all of this to share knowledge? Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "malcolm maclure" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Keith, sorry I've not got back to you, been working away. > > Thanks for the links & lengthy reply, very interesting reading! Took a > while to get through but enlightening. I appreciate the time & trouble > you took to put that together! Thanks. You're a clever guy, wish I had > lecturers like you when I was at Uni, could have been a lot more > interesting. > > Anyway the work you do & the time you spend for the benefit of the rest > of us is appreciated by many, so don't be too racked off when the odd > one shows up to be "a fly in the ointment" > > Best regards > > Malcolm > > -Original Message----- > From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 20 May 2004 18:27 > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war > > Dear Malcolm > > >Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back! > > :-) Good to have you. > > >I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words. > > > >I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life, > >especially here in the UK. > > Well then let's see if we can cheer you up a little over the general > prospect. > > >We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an > >increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic > >migrants & reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever > >growing population of Asian people, a very hard working & > >successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically > >changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming > >fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is > >a small Island compared to > >the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can > >creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole > > But many Americans are most bothered about how that's happening > there, along with the fragmentation you mention, more usually seen in > the US case as a polarisation (though with more sides than two, as > yet). > > > - as the land & resources run out, panic sets in & people become > >deffensive & possessive over what they have. > > That state of mind has many potential routes of arrival. Again in the > US, what many blame is the exploitation and engendering of fear (the > emotion, as opposed to actual risk and danger). Perhaps we have to > look further for the true causes. > > >This > >situation has led many Brits to upsticks & move to Spain & elsewhere > >- perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation? > > Or dislocation? Yes, I know they call it relocation. > > >I guess you're right. Maybe "inherrant" was a bad choice of wording. > >However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all > >the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of "greed" > >that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving > >everyday people, & goes right to the top with our politicians, some > >of > >the biggest "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all > that. > > Ah, now, would you mind if I rearranged things a little? How about: > "This starts at the top with our politicians, some of the biggest > "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that, & goes > right to a basic level, involving everyday people." Now try seeing it > as a ploy rather than a (natural) phenomenon, so you can ask Who > benefits?, and then ask How and Why. If it's the result of a more or > less successful ploy, and a very heavily funded one at that, then you > can see it as imposed rather than inherent. Comparisons that confirm > that are quite easy to find. > > >Collectively we are all subscribing to a "greed" ellement in our > >lives, we vote for politicians. > > Do you vote for the "choice" you're presented with? "... scrawled > wisdom in the men's loo at a Brighton pub, circa 1980 - '
RE: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Keith, sorry I've not got back to you, been working away. Thanks for the links & lengthy reply, very interesting reading! Took a while to get through but enlightening. I appreciate the time & trouble you took to put that together! Thanks. You're a clever guy, wish I had lecturers like you when I was at Uni, could have been a lot more interesting. Anyway the work you do & the time you spend for the benefit of the rest of us is appreciated by many, so don't be too racked off when the odd one shows up to be "a fly in the ointment" Best regards Malcolm -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 May 2004 18:27 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war Dear Malcolm >Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back! :-) Good to have you. >I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words. > >I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life, >especially here in the UK. Well then let's see if we can cheer you up a little over the general prospect. >We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an >increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic >migrants & reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever >growing population of Asian people, a very hard working & >successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically >changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming >fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is >a small Island compared to >the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can >creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole But many Americans are most bothered about how that's happening there, along with the fragmentation you mention, more usually seen in the US case as a polarisation (though with more sides than two, as yet). > - as the land & resources run out, panic sets in & people become >deffensive & possessive over what they have. That state of mind has many potential routes of arrival. Again in the US, what many blame is the exploitation and engendering of fear (the emotion, as opposed to actual risk and danger). Perhaps we have to look further for the true causes. >This >situation has led many Brits to upsticks & move to Spain & elsewhere >- perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation? Or dislocation? Yes, I know they call it relocation. >I guess you're right. Maybe "inherrant" was a bad choice of wording. >However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all >the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of "greed" >that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving >everyday people, & goes right to the top with our politicians, some >of >the biggest "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that. Ah, now, would you mind if I rearranged things a little? How about: "This starts at the top with our politicians, some of the biggest "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that, & goes right to a basic level, involving everyday people." Now try seeing it as a ploy rather than a (natural) phenomenon, so you can ask Who benefits?, and then ask How and Why. If it's the result of a more or less successful ploy, and a very heavily funded one at that, then you can see it as imposed rather than inherent. Comparisons that confirm that are quite easy to find. >Collectively we are all subscribing to a "greed" ellement in our >lives, we vote for politicians. Do you vote for the "choice" you're presented with? "... scrawled wisdom in the men's loo at a Brighton pub, circa 1980 - 'If voting could change anything it would be illegal'." Gore Vidal says of the US that the two parties are really one party representing 4% of the people. The 4% is probably optimistic. Chomsky talks of the two branches of the business party. It's much the same in the UK. Did you vote for that? >As consumers, we are fuelling the greed of corporations who want to >profit from us. Yup. How do you think it is that they manage to kick "you" and society into the "best" shape to enable that? As we naturally are wouldn't work all that well, and indeed it didn't. Advertising is now a $435 billion business. But that's a conservative estimate of annual global expenditures. If all forms of marketing are included, the figure rises to nearer $1 trillion. This is a little simplistic, but nonetheless it's true to say that advertising has one major purpose - to make people feel dissatisfied with what they've got. Th
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Dear Malcolm
>Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back!
:-) Good to have you.
>I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words.
>
>I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life,
>especially here in the UK.
Well then let's see if we can cheer you up a little over the general prospect.
>We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an
>increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic
>migrants & reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever
>growing population of Asian people, a very hard working &
>successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically
>changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming
>fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is
>a small Island compared to
>the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can
>creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole
But many Americans are most bothered about how that's happening
there, along with the fragmentation you mention, more usually seen in
the US case as a polarisation (though with more sides than two, as
yet).
> - as the land & resources run out, panic sets in & people become
>deffensive & possessive over what they have.
That state of mind has many potential routes of arrival. Again in the
US, what many blame is the exploitation and engendering of fear (the
emotion, as opposed to actual risk and danger). Perhaps we have to
look further for the true causes.
>This
>situation has led many Brits to upsticks & move to Spain & elsewhere
>- perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation?
Or dislocation? Yes, I know they call it relocation.
>I guess you're right. Maybe "inherrant" was a bad choice of wording.
>However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all
>the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of "greed"
>that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving
>everyday people, & goes right to the top with our politicians, some
>of
>the biggest "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that.
Ah, now, would you mind if I rearranged things a little? How about:
"This starts at the top with our politicians, some of the biggest
"greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that, & goes
right to a basic level, involving everyday people." Now try seeing it
as a ploy rather than a (natural) phenomenon, so you can ask Who
benefits?, and then ask How and Why. If it's the result of a more or
less successful ploy, and a very heavily funded one at that, then you
can see it as imposed rather than inherent. Comparisons that confirm
that are quite easy to find.
>Collectively we are all subscribing to a "greed" ellement in our
>lives, we vote for politicians.
Do you vote for the "choice" you're presented with? "... scrawled
wisdom in the men's loo at a Brighton pub, circa 1980 - 'If voting
could change anything it would be illegal'." Gore Vidal says of the
US that the two parties are really one party representing 4% of the
people. The 4% is probably optimistic. Chomsky talks of the two
branches of the business party. It's much the same in the UK. Did you
vote for that?
>As consumers, we are fuelling the greed of corporations who want to
>profit from us.
Yup. How do you think it is that they manage to kick "you" and
society into the "best" shape to enable that? As we naturally are
wouldn't work all that well, and indeed it didn't.
Advertising is now a $435 billion business. But that's a conservative
estimate of annual global expenditures. If all forms of marketing are
included, the figure rises to nearer $1 trillion. This is a little
simplistic, but nonetheless it's true to say that advertising has one
major purpose - to make people feel dissatisfied with what they've
got. That figure of $1 trillion probably doesn't include much of the
huge amounts spent on manipulating opinion ("manufacturing consent")
via the PR industry, the right-wing foundations and the "think-tanks"
they fund so heavily, the corporate and other support for politicians
and political campaigns, which comes in many forms, subversion of the
media via ownership and concentration...
Another quote -- Australian social scientist Alex Carey says "The
20th century has been characterized by three developments of great
political importance: The growth of democracy, the growth of
corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of
protecting corporate power against democracy." You can fool too many
of the people too much of the time.
>As biofuel advocates, yes we are striving to save us all from
>environmental ruin, but at the same time we rub our hands in glee
>that we could be providing fuel for
>our own use without lining the coffers of corporations and governments.
Hm... You're stretching it a bit Malcom, I wouldn't see that as
greed, there's a lot more to it. Sure, a lot of u
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Dear Kieth, thanks for the warm welcome back, good to be back! I read the links you sent - fine, eloquent words. I think I must have become synical about certain aspects of life, especially here in the UK. We have a massive drugs problem brewing here, and with that an increase in related crime, as well as a huge influx of economic migrants & reffugees from Eastern Europe, Iraq etc. We have an ever growing population of Asian people, a very hard working & successful group in our society. All these factors are dramatically changing the way many look at things here, society is becomming fragmented too quickly for many to adjust to comfortably. The UK is a small Island compared to the US, so it is easy to understand how selfishness and greed can creep into the phsychy of the nation as a whole - as the land & resources run out, panic sets in & people become deffensive & possessive over what they have. This situation has led many Brits to upsticks & move to Spain & elsewhere - perhaps that's what they mean when they say globalisation? I guess you're right. Maybe "inherrant" was a bad choice of wording. However, whilst cooperation for mutual benefit goes on around us all the time as with this forum and more, there are traits of "greed" that pervade our lives also. This starts at a basic level, involving everyday people, & goes right to the top with our politicians, some of the biggest "greed" offenders of all time, "vested interests" & all that. Collectively we are all subscribing to a "greed" ellement in our lives, we vote for politicians. As consumers, we are fuelling the greed of corporations who want to profit from us. As biofuel advocates, yes we are striving to save us all from environmental ruin, but at the same time we rub our hands in glee that we could be providing fuel for our own use without lining the coffers of corporations and governments. We are all subscribing to a greed culture of sorts, but that in itself is no bad thing as long as it ensures healthy competition, choice, & benefit to all, leaving no one out of the equation. Unfortunately there are many in the world that are left out, which was really my point. As a biologist I see it as more of a case of parasitism or symbiosis, where the current emphasis, endorsed by politicians & corporations is of a parasitic nature - "take what you can no matter what the consequences - that's the next generation's problem" or, the symbiotic approach, "take what you need, use it wisely & don't take anymore untill you know there's plenty more to take from again" I'm not racist or fiercly nationalistic, I'm pro globalisation, it would help pull down the barriers between nations if we learned to share resources for the common good, but I just don't think we have learnt enough yet, as a species, to take things to that level, why? Because "greed" places that element of doubt & suspicion that triggers the selfish side of mankind. We have still a long way to go, and much to learn before we shrug off our greatest burdon. If I sound like I'm spouting a load of uneducated twaddle - please say so & I'll put on my sombraro and sod off to Spain with everyone else. Lol Regards Malcolm Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Malcolm, by the way, welcome back! Glad you're okay. Regards Keith >Hello Malcolm > >>Interesting views aired, and valid too. But no nation is without >>guilt at some point in its history, in its treatment of its own >>nationals and those of other nations, past or present. >>The universal word that applies to us all, whatever nationality, is >>greed. As soon as we all loose this seemingly inherrant trait - the >>world will become something towards true freedom. I doubt I will >>see that day in my lifetime - but we have to hope, for the sake of >>our children. > >I don't agree with you that greed is a universal trait inherent to >all. It's an aberration, not at all normal. The major activity of >humans in society is cooperation. It's so common, ingrained in so >much that we do, and for so long, that we mostly fail to notice it, >like water to a fish. > >Please have a look at these two previous posts: > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30675/ > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30694/ > >Best wishes > >Keith > > >>Kindest regards >> >>Malcolm >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "balaji" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for >> > India and had many positives. >> >>"We are bringing them to Christianity" said Slater on the slave ship. >> >>An upright and honest judicial system that >> > continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black >>laws enacted >> > by the administration. >> >>The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth >>exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all >>about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Malcolm, by the way, welcome back! Glad you're okay. Regards Keith >Hello Malcolm > >>Interesting views aired, and valid too. But no nation is without >>guilt at some point in its history, in its treatment of its own >>nationals and those of other nations, past or present. >>The universal word that applies to us all, whatever nationality, is >>greed. As soon as we all loose this seemingly inherrant trait - the >>world will become something towards true freedom. I doubt I will >>see that day in my lifetime - but we have to hope, for the sake of >>our children. > >I don't agree with you that greed is a universal trait inherent to >all. It's an aberration, not at all normal. The major activity of >humans in society is cooperation. It's so common, ingrained in so >much that we do, and for so long, that we mostly fail to notice it, >like water to a fish. > >Please have a look at these two previous posts: > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30675/ > >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30694/ > >Best wishes > >Keith > > >>Kindest regards >> >>Malcolm >> >>[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >>--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "balaji" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >>Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for >> > India and had many positives. >> >>"We are bringing them to Christianity" said Slater on the slave ship. >> >>An upright and honest judicial system that >> > continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black >>laws enacted >> > by the administration. >> >>The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth >>exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all >>about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being >>spiritual non-materialistic beacons into judges who would ensure >>transactions that bled India of its resources. >> >>The many voices of conscience from Britain that spoke >> > up for the natives. >> >>Churchill's voice rose above them all: "naked little fakhir". Voices >>were raised around the world. Yet the British kept electing racist >>imperialistic governments >> >>The excellent education system which was mostly secular >> > with little attempt at religious proselytisation. >> >>To transform Indians into good little servants - engineers, technical >>workers, etc. to better exploit the nation. Indians left alone would >>nevertheless have an excellent school system. They have no one to >>thank. >> >>Proselytisation would have spelled an unmanageable jihad against the >>occupiers. It was a practical choice, nothing more. >> >>The basic railroad that >> > has mushroomed >> > into the largest in the world. >> >>The railroad was built to move resources and workers. It was a >>system designed to rob Indians of their resources as efficiently as >>possible. What Indians did with it after the Brits were booted out >>is a testament to Indians, not to the British. >> >> > >> > I think it had partly to do with the British sense of justice and >>fairplay >> > (it wasn't cricket) and the rule of law most of them abided by back >>in >> > Britain. >> >>What a crock. Where is the fair play in keeping an entire nation >>subjugated by force of arms?. The fairplay myth is just that, a >>myth. It may have existed on a coventry cricket field, but it did >>not exist in any colony of any empire. >> >>That's possibly why slave trading initiated by the British in the >> > Americas, >> > was abolished in 1807, long before it happened in the USA. >> >>more likely from the extreme guilt associated with being the world's >>number one and most ruthless slave traders. >> >> > >> > Regards. >> > >> > balaji >> >> >>good reading on the matter: >> >>Freedom struggle >>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- >>/8173044422/qid=1084999512/sr=8-15/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i15_xgl14/103- >>3251336-7764659?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 >> >> >> >>Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Hello Malcolm >Interesting views aired, and valid too. But no nation is without >guilt at some point in its history, in its treatment of its own >nationals and those of other nations, past or present. >The universal word that applies to us all, whatever nationality, is >greed. As soon as we all loose this seemingly inherrant trait - the >world will become something towards true freedom. I doubt I will see >that day in my lifetime - but we have to hope, for the sake of our >children. I don't agree with you that greed is a universal trait inherent to all. It's an aberration, not at all normal. The major activity of humans in society is cooperation. It's so common, ingrained in so much that we do, and for so long, that we mostly fail to notice it, like water to a fish. Please have a look at these two previous posts: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30675/ http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/30694/ Best wishes Keith >Kindest regards > >Malcolm > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "balaji" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Colonisation was not however an unmitigated disaster for > > India and had many positives. > >"We are bringing them to Christianity" said Slater on the slave ship. > >An upright and honest judicial system that > > continued to dispense humane justice in spite of the many black >laws enacted > > by the administration. > >The British judicial system was only intent upon ensuring the smooth >exploitation of India - contracts law - that is what it was all >about. Entire generations of Brahman were transformed from being >spiritual non-materialistic beacons into judges who would ensure >transactions that bled India of its resources. > >The many voices of conscience from Britain that spoke > > up for the natives. > >Churchill's voice rose above them all: "naked little fakhir". Voices >were raised around the world. Yet the British kept electing racist >imperialistic governments > >The excellent education system which was mostly secular > > with little attempt at religious proselytisation. > >To transform Indians into good little servants - engineers, technical >workers, etc. to better exploit the nation. Indians left alone would >nevertheless have an excellent school system. They have no one to >thank. > >Proselytisation would have spelled an unmanageable jihad against the >occupiers. It was a practical choice, nothing more. > >The basic railroad that > > has mushroomed > > into the largest in the world. > >The railroad was built to move resources and workers. It was a >system designed to rob Indians of their resources as efficiently as >possible. What Indians did with it after the Brits were booted out >is a testament to Indians, not to the British. > > > > > I think it had partly to do with the British sense of justice and >fairplay > > (it wasn't cricket) and the rule of law most of them abided by back >in > > Britain. > >What a crock. Where is the fair play in keeping an entire nation >subjugated by force of arms?. The fairplay myth is just that, a >myth. It may have existed on a coventry cricket field, but it did >not exist in any colony of any empire. > >That's possibly why slave trading initiated by the British in the > > Americas, > > was abolished in 1807, long before it happened in the USA. > >more likely from the extreme guilt associated with being the world's >number one and most ruthless slave traders. > > > > > Regards. > > > > balaji > > >good reading on the matter: > >Freedom struggle >http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/- >/8173044422/qid=1084999512/sr=8-15/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i15_xgl14/103- >3251336-7764659?v=glance&s=books&n=507846 > > > >Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Yahoo! Domains - Claim yours for only $14.70 http://us.click.yahoo.com/Z1wmxD/DREIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Message: 22 Date: Fri, 14 May 2004 01:21:48 -0700 From: "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: RE: [biofuels] Re: US poll about Iraq war One cannot judge history by modern standards, that's History 101! If history repeats itself, then why can't it be judged by modern standards? : ) Steve [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
--- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All I can add in our defense, is that much more good has come from our use > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who inhabited > it previously. Yes, you too have benefited from Jackson' s quest, so find a > better argument about the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic though culturally > rich natives who fell easily to manifest destiny. Their children are being > well taken care of, and now have the benefit of electricity, inexpensive > housing, internal combustion, oh, and beer. :) Reminds me of Slater,(Ralph Waite), captain of the slave ship in Roots: "We're bringing them to christianity!" Pierre Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
Crikey Ryan! Did you read what you wrote? Do you even understand what it is that you communicated? How distored a perspective can you have when you say > that much more good has come from our use > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who inhabited > it previously. And to justify such a statement of arrogance by trying to lay guilt on the doorsteps of those who came after such slaughter? How disconnected and disjointed can a human being's thought processes be? Benefitted? Haven't you figured out that the mindless and "depraved philosophy" of Manifest Destiny is something that global society is suffering the consequences from to this very day? Not to mention that it's acceptance and implementation in one era smooths the path for its implementation in every generation thereafter. Get real for a moment. It's somehow okay to slaughter and displace "the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic ... natives" who cannot withstand overwhelming numbers, unimaginable weaponry and devastating disease? Who the hell are you or anyone else to pass such judgement? Wake up for Christ's sake!!! And everyone elses. Standing up for a "depraved philosophy that states we are morally compelled by God Almighty to kill weaker people and steal their land" is every bit as immoral and depraved as those who swing the sword, obliterate food supplies or intentionally seed blankets with smallpox - or any similar actions. And then you move on and take issue with applications of similar policies of arrogance in the present day? Something sure isn't wound and tensioned properly in your upstairs orbit if you can on the one hand see the insanity of Bush's implementation of Jacksonian policy but still endorse or justify such aberrations in historical context. Somehow you need to get a mental, emotional and even spiritual grip and start understanding that all those dead, maimed and displaced persons from previous generations that you so easily dismiss were as human as you are at this very moment - and judging by your words, perhaps more so in many respects. One can only wonder how you would perceive history if you were a mother or child or infant or weathered elder on the receiving end of a saber or bullet sent from "god." What are now "ghosts" were once brothers and sisters. And neither you nor anyone else has ever possessed the right to wave your hand and state that their murder is or was justified. As for your dismally blind and sweepingly general perspective on how well off the indigenous peoples of the North American continent are today or what the traits of a broadened education are? Whatever it is that you're smoking you need to put it down and take a long walk back into the world of reality. Todd Swearingen --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All I can add in our defense, is that much more good has come from our use > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who inhabited > it previously. Yes, you too have benefited from Jackson' s quest, so find a > better argument about the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic though culturally > rich natives who fell easily to manifest destiny. Their children are being > well taken care of, and now have the benefit of electricity, inexpensive > housing, internal combustion, oh, and beer. :) > > Also, we sure picked a loser for a President in 2000, good thing we can kick > him out of office in 2004. How many other countries refresh their > leadership on such a regular basis? I agree with some who think his entire > administration should be behind bars for the atrocities, corruption, and > fleecing of not only the American public, but the entire world. I am > ashamed to be associated with our false President and his cabinet these > days, but proud that I voted for Al Gore, and rightly so...as it turns out. > Is Kerry the answer? Maybe, but at least he will choose an entirely > different administration and get those crocked-good-for-nothin' Ashcrofts, > Rumsfelds, and Cheneys out of positions of power. When push comes to shove, > and believe me it has! The American public will do the right thing. > > In the mean time, we're all [here on this list] are just doing what we can > to reduce the need for foreign oil, to take the incentive away from > stability in the Middle East. Personally I look forward to the day when the > economics of the region make it impossible to inhabit the area, at least on > the same scale. Where will all of those people go? Well, they may just > have to assimilate elsewhere, obey the law, get a job, and act respectable. > Enough of this 2000 year code of Islamic law already, the world awards > progress...they'll figure it out. > > Please note I don't hate Native Americans or Muslim populations in general, > I believe all people are generally good, and have gone through the four > years of feminist based philosophy that is St
[biofuel] Re: US poll about Iraq war
When you say "our defense," are you thinking that you're speaking for all US citizens. Because you sure don't speak for me, and I can only hope that at least a sizeable minority of my fellow citizens would feel the same. Brian --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "Ryan Morgan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > All I can add in our defense, is that much more good has come from our use > of the land for the good of the world, than from the natives who inhabited > it previously. Yes, you too have benefited from Jackson' s quest, so find a > better argument about the poor, savage, barbaric, nomadic though culturally > rich natives who fell easily to manifest destiny. Their children are being > well taken care of, and now have the benefit of electricity, inexpensive > housing, internal combustion, oh, and beer. :) > > Also, we sure picked a loser for a President in 2000, good thing we can kick > him out of office in 2004. How many other countries refresh their > leadership on such a regular basis? I agree with some who think his entire > administration should be behind bars for the atrocities, corruption, and > fleecing of not only the American public, but the entire world. I am > ashamed to be associated with our false President and his cabinet these > days, but proud that I voted for Al Gore, and rightly so...as it turns out. > Is Kerry the answer? Maybe, but at least he will choose an entirely > different administration and get those crocked-good-for-nothin' Ashcrofts, > Rumsfelds, and Cheneys out of positions of power. When push comes to shove, > and believe me it has! The American public will do the right thing. > > In the mean time, we're all [here on this list] are just doing what we can > to reduce the need for foreign oil, to take the incentive away from > stability in the Middle East. Personally I look forward to the day when the > economics of the region make it impossible to inhabit the area, at least on > the same scale. Where will all of those people go? Well, they may just > have to assimilate elsewhere, obey the law, get a job, and act respectable. > Enough of this 2000 year code of Islamic law already, the world awards > progress...they'll figure it out. > > Please note I don't hate Native Americans or Muslim populations in general, > I believe all people are generally good, and have gone through the four > years of feminist based philosophy that is State-sponsored University here > in the US. With that said- > > > Flame away dear friends, > > Ryan :) > -Original Message- > From: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 1:57 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] US poll about Iraq war > > > Why not ask the Israelis Ted? > > No. Wait. They haven't figured out their little problem yet either. > > Many don't agree with the analogy of Iraq being another Viet Nam. > > Rather, the comparison to the Gaza Strip or the West Bank is more > appropriate - continual attrition, continual hate, continual oppression, > continual occupation. > > But heck. The US has been very good at oppression, occupation and even > genocide throughout its "illustrious" past. Just ask any American native. > And for that? Jackson got his picture on the $20. > > One very queer country that pays homage to those who are the architects of > such sweeping devastation. > > Todd Swearingen > > - Original Message - > From: "Ted Dinkelman" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Tuesday, May 11, 2004 2:02 PM > Subject: Re: [biofuel] US poll about Iraq war > > > > As the poll states, the majority think this is a bad idea. My question > is > how do we get out of it? Just quiting and going home would be a worse > situation and staying will cost many lives on all sides. > > > > Ted > > > > Hakan Falk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > I just saw the latest gallup polls about the Iraq war and Bush handling > of > > it. As we said the whole time, "it were and is a bad idea to > unilaterally > > occupy Iraq". Now finally a majority of the American people seems to > agree > > with it and that Bush is not capable to handle it. Now we cannot find > any > > majority population of any country in the world, who think that the > Iraq > > occupation was or is a good idea. > > > > We also find some fine ways of which the OPEC countries show their > opinion > > of what is happening. They are signing up the major development of > Natural > > Gas with other countries, like Russia and China, and when US finally > have > > transport capacity for NG, they will have difficulties to buy enough. > The > > same is happening on new oil exploration. They also have difficulties in > > delivering more oil to US. This is not a surprise, if the proponents of > the > > opinion that we at the moment experience the Hubbert peak of oil > > product
