Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Yes, burning manure or firewood for that matter in the house with improperly vented fireplaces and cooking over and open fire does cause respiratory problems. This is not what we were thinking about doing. Bright Blessings, Kim At 05:25 PM 4/8/2004, you wrote: >Hello Kim > > >The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an >article, > > >by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get >'somewhat > > >greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.' > >I seem to remember that the degree of burnng manure in India led to >respiratory problems. >Can't site a reference. > >Reghards Paul Gobert. > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > >Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Yahoo! Groups Links > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Hello Kim > >The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an article, > >by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat > >greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.' I seem to remember that the degree of burnng manure in India led to respiratory problems. Can't site a reference. Reghards Paul Gobert. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Keith, I am pleased to see you joining in on this discussion because I think this topic is right down you alley. I would like to suggest that the biogas energy be recovered in a small, slow speed, long life diesel generator such as a "Lister Engine" rather than a steam engine. Diesel engines deliver about three times the KWHr per /BTU than steam engines due to higher operating efficiency. Biogas needs to be combusted in a diesel engine rather than a gasoline engine because the diesel has a higher compression ratio (biogas needs about 12 - 14:1 compression ratio for best combustion). The waste heat from the water jacket on the Lister engine is more than sufficient to maintain thermophilic temperatures of the biogas reactor and you still have the heat from the engine exhaust for other higher energy uses as well. About 25% of the biogas energy will be recovered as electricity and the remainder as heat energy at various temperatures. It is important to look at the monthly and seasonal energy consumption profile to determine how much energy should be recovered in each form (summer vs winter usages). Do you need 5 KWHr per day as electricity and 50,000 BTU's as space heat and 6,000 BTU's for cooking gas and 30,000 BTU's for hot water, etc. Then you can lay out the size of each the components necessary to convert the biogas into the appropriate form of energy. Perhaps some of the biogas will bypass the diesel engine and be fed directly into a water heater burner because your needs are for greater amounts of hot water for example. One of the nice features is that the biogas system produces energy fairly uniformly 24 hours per day. So with a small amount of batteries and insulated tanks, you can easily handle typical surges in demand during the day. Of, course it also helps if you have a way to continuously supply the wastes needed to feed the biogas reactor. Having a herd of pigs, cows or horses helps alot. You might find yourself supply limited and need to import other wastes such as grass clippings or grain wastes or food wastes, etc to make up for a feedstock supply deficiency. One thing is certain - ALL of these efforts should be made to maximize the return of organic matter to soil as a mature soil amendment. Then the discussions about sustainability can begin. Art Krenzel - Original Message - From: Keith Addison To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, April 08, 2004 10:01 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question Hi Kim Good to see you back. >Keith, I told you I would be back I thought it was going to be a year or two, glad you made it sooner. >Greetings, > >I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to >learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I hope to >get to know all the new people. > >My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live and farm >sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one >day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and cordwood. > >The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an article, >by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat >greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in the >garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more than >40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread >manure. What was higher? Yields? You'd want other indicators than that. Spreading manure is generally not a good technique. (But letting the livestock do the spreading can be a very good technique.) >He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing of his >'findings' still needs to be done. Yes. >If one can get both heat and fertilizer >out of manure, You need to distinguish between "fertilizer" and "nutrients". >then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam >generator and be totally sustainable. > >The author states he got the idea from a friend from Thailand. There are >no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about heat and >the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy and too >perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? As Art said, no organic matter. Ash just leaves the minerals and will provide nutrients but not soil fertility - it could even harm soil fertility. The effect of such treatments depends very much on what condition the soil is in to start with. Too much ash on low-O/M acidic soils will make matters worse, not better (eg hardpan), and not very much might be too much. There's no substitute for humus maintenance, and ash can't do that. How
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Luis,
Thank you for your kind words, sir. I feel that I have found a kindred spirit
out there in the real world.
>From your address, I can tell that you are most likely deeply involved in
>bagasse recovery efforts. What are you doing now and where are you headed in
>handling bagasse after the sugar has been removed?
The sugar industry has been successful at combusting bagasse in boilers as an
energy source. How do you handle the bagasse which has been contaminated with
dirt, rocks, etc? How do you handle spend sugar liquors? What are the BOD
content of those liquids being discharged from the plant?
Looking forward to your reply.
Art Krenzel, P.E.
PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
10505 NE 285TH Street
Battle Ground, WA 98604
360-666-1883 voice
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Contactos Mundiales
To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 6:21 PM
Subject: RE: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Mr. Art Krenzel
Phoenix Technologies
Dear Art:
I could not agree more with your statements of fact in regards to
biodigestion.
Please continue sharing your knowledge and experience with us.
With best regards,
Luis R. Calzadilla
VP Operations
Fundacin Sugar Cane Research Org.
Cali, Colombia
Tel (572) 893-6627
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
- Original Message -
From: Art Krenzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
> Kim,
>
> When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final
product and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized
water soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to
retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would
suspect.
>
> I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic
digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing
60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as
compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm
sustainability.
>
> This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed
tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the
solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle
which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and can
be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit multiple
times.
>
> There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the
past five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons
required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - 40
days now can be done in 8 - 10 days.
>
> Art Krenzel, P.E.
> PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES
> 10505 NE 285TH Street
> Battle Ground, WA 98604
> 360-666-1883 voice
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question +
mainder of the carbon solids as > > >compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm > > >sustainability. > > > > > >This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed > > >tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the > > >solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle > > >which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and > > >can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit > > >multiple times. > > > > > >There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past > > >five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons > > >required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - > > >40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. > > > > > >Art Krenzel, P.E. > > >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > > >10505 NE 285TH Street > > >Battle Ground, WA 98604 > > >360-666-1883 voice > > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > - Original Message - > > > From: Kim & Garth Travis > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:55 AM > > > Subject: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question > > > > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > > > I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to > > > learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I > > hope to > > > get to know all the new people. > > > > > > My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live > and farm > > > sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one > > > day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and > cordwood. > > > > > > The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an > > > article, > > > by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get > > 'somewhat > > > greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in > > > the > > > garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more > > than > > > 40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread > > > manure. He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing > > of his > > > 'findings' still needs to be done. If one can get both heat and > > > fertilizer > > > out of manure, then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam > > > generator and be totally sustainable. > > > > > > The author states he got the idea from a friend from > Thailand. There are > > > no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about > heat and > > > the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy > and too > > > perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? > > > > > > Bright Blessings, > > > Kim > > > > > > Keith, I told you I would be back Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Kim, I do not have much experience from farming, but as a teenager I took care of racing horses as a hobby. My experiences is more from working with house design and studies of old farm houses. The design of old farm houses that is very common, is to recuperate heat from manure storage, to heat houses during winter and also have the body heat from the animals to contribute to the human living space. The most common is to staple the manure (compost) along walls shared with the living space. With a more modern and innovative design with tubing in the compost, fans and thermostats, you should be able to recuperate some heat for space heating from the compost process and still get the biogas. I imagine that you need some temperature control so you do not cool down the compost too much, but it is worth to look into. If I remember right, but do not hold me to the number, you can have temperatures around 50 - 60 degree Celsius in a compost during the winter. Biogas is a matter of trapping and collecting and can be very simple plastic sheeting with tube connectors, like they do in waste dumps. Drying and burning the manure, might not be the most efficient method, but it was also a part of old farming and the collection was mostly from the fields in the summer. Heat and biogas collection, must be more efficient, since you also get the best fertilizer. The first street light systems in cities, was running on biogas from the sewer systems. I think that you have a fun, challenging and interesting project here. I have long suspected that the tradition to have the animals in closed housing, was more a human need for heating system, than the need for animal shelter. This because of the design of old farm houses and the fact that the animals in most cases would survive perfectly well in the nature, with much simpler shelter arrangements. Hakan At 14:32 08/04/2004, you wrote: >Thanks for the reply. I will need to learn more about biogas, but I had no >intention of burning all my manure. Even if I did burn all the cow manure, >I would still have all the rabbit, pig and human manure left to make >compost with. Since there is just me and my husband when he retires on the >farm, simplicity is an issue. As is cost, a steam generator is about $200 >US, how much does it cost to set up biogas? How much extra work is it? I >was thinking of only saving the manure for fuel while the cows are in the >barn due to bad weather, [We are planning on moving to an area that has >winter.] so we have to clean it up anyway. I remember reading that >temperature had an effect on biogas production, how does it work when >temperatures are below freezing? It has been a few years since I looked >into this, so I will check it again, after the garden is finished being >planted. > >Bright Blessings, >Kim > >At 12:32 PM 4/7/2004, you wrote: > >Kim, > > > >When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final product > >and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized water > >soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to > >retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would > suspect. > > > >I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic > >digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing > >60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as > >compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm > >sustainability. > > > >This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed > >tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the > >solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle > >which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and > >can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit > >multiple times. > > > >There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past > >five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons > >required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - > >40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. > > > >Art Krenzel, P.E. > >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > >10505 NE 285TH Street > >Battle Ground, WA 98604 > >360-666-1883 voice > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > - Original Message - > > From: Kim & Garth Travis > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:55 AM > > Subject: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question > > > > > > Greetings, > > > > I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to > > learn other thin
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Greetings Keith, Well, I have a lot more freedom in my life, these days. The US finally decided to give me a greencard! It only took them 12 years, but then we had the lawyer from... I see I am going to need to do some research. Thanks for the warning, as my soil here in Texas is definitely hardpan, but, I let the cow spread the manure for me here, so I doubt I will be doing much testing, unless a friend with a horse wants to make manure bricks for me. I will read the stuff on biogas on your site, then get back to the list with the questions I know I will have. Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:01 PM 4/8/2004, you wrote: >Hi Kim > >Good to see you back. > > >Keith, I told you I would be back > >I thought it was going to be a year or two, glad you made it sooner. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Thanks for the reply. I will need to learn more about biogas, but I had no intention of burning all my manure. Even if I did burn all the cow manure, I would still have all the rabbit, pig and human manure left to make compost with. Since there is just me and my husband when he retires on the farm, simplicity is an issue. As is cost, a steam generator is about $200 US, how much does it cost to set up biogas? How much extra work is it? I was thinking of only saving the manure for fuel while the cows are in the barn due to bad weather, [We are planning on moving to an area that has winter.] so we have to clean it up anyway. I remember reading that temperature had an effect on biogas production, how does it work when temperatures are below freezing? It has been a few years since I looked into this, so I will check it again, after the garden is finished being planted. Bright Blessings, Kim At 12:32 PM 4/7/2004, you wrote: >Kim, > >When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final product >and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized water >soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to >retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would suspect. > >I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic >digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing >60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as >compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm >sustainability. > >This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed >tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the >solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle >which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and >can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit >multiple times. > >There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past >five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons >required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - >40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. > >Art Krenzel, P.E. >PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES >10505 NE 285TH Street >Battle Ground, WA 98604 >360-666-1883 voice >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > - Original Message - > From: Kim & Garth Travis > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:55 AM > Subject: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question > > > Greetings, > > I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to > learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I hope to > get to know all the new people. > > My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live and farm > sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one > day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and cordwood. > > The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an > article, > by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat > greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in > the > garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more than > 40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread > manure. He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing of his > 'findings' still needs to be done. If one can get both heat and > fertilizer > out of manure, then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam > generator and be totally sustainable. > > The author states he got the idea from a friend from Thailand. There are > no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about heat and > the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy and too > perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? > > Bright Blessings, > Kim > > Keith, I told you I would be back > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > >-- > Yahoo! Groups Links > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an ema
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Hi Kim Good to see you back. >Keith, I told you I would be back I thought it was going to be a year or two, glad you made it sooner. >Greetings, > >I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to >learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I hope to >get to know all the new people. > >My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live and farm >sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one >day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and cordwood. > >The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an article, >by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat >greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in the >garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more than >40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread >manure. What was higher? Yields? You'd want other indicators than that. Spreading manure is generally not a good technique. (But letting the livestock do the spreading can be a very good technique.) >He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing of his >'findings' still needs to be done. Yes. >If one can get both heat and fertilizer >out of manure, You need to distinguish between "fertilizer" and "nutrients". >then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam >generator and be totally sustainable. > >The author states he got the idea from a friend from Thailand. There are >no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about heat and >the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy and too >perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? As Art said, no organic matter. Ash just leaves the minerals and will provide nutrients but not soil fertility - it could even harm soil fertility. The effect of such treatments depends very much on what condition the soil is in to start with. Too much ash on low-O/M acidic soils will make matters worse, not better (eg hardpan), and not very much might be too much. There's no substitute for humus maintenance, and ash can't do that. Howard developed the Indore compost process in India partly to address a shortage of manure caused by its use for cooking fires. Composting extended the manure supplies by five times, so there would be enough for both the fires and the soil. Weight for weight, compost turned out to be much more effective than pure manure, so the effect was better than five times. It can be extended even further by adding compost made without any manure, from water hyacinth for instance. Note "adding" though - for long-term fertility maintenance at least some organic matter has to pass through an animal gut on its way back to the soil, preferably via more than one species of animal. It's also a much better idea to add any ash to the compost rather than to the soil. Art's suggestion of anaerobic digestion for methane production for heating is one way, but, as he said, the sludge must then be aerobically composted (hot) before applying it to the soil. Generally that requires added "browns" (dry, carbonaceous stuff) to correct the moisture content and allow sufficient aeration; easiest to use it as one component in an ongoing aerobic composting operation. Aerobic composting also produces heat of course, which is usually wasted. We always have at least one compost pile here that's at 70-75 deg C (160-170 deg F). One way to use the heat is via a heat exchanger to maintain optimum temperatures in the anaerobic digesters. We've done some preliminary work on harnessing composting heat, we'll take it further as soon as we have the chance. There's the makings of a good integrated system in this, fits in well with rational use of 20 acres (or less). Best Keith >Bright Blessings, >Kim > >Keith, I told you I would be back Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Mr. Art Krenzel Phoenix Technologies Dear Art: I could not agree more with your statements of fact in regards to biodigestion. Please continue sharing your knowledge and experience with us. With best regards, Luis R. Calzadilla VP Operations Fundacin Sugar Cane Research Org. Cali, Colombia Tel (572) 893-6627 [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Art Krenzel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question > Kim, > > When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final product and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized water soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would suspect. > > I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing 60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm sustainability. > > This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit multiple times. > > There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - 40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. > > Art Krenzel, P.E. > PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES > 10505 NE 285TH Street > Battle Ground, WA 98604 > 360-666-1883 voice > [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Kim, When you burn manure you remove the organic matter from the final product and retain only the minerals which can help the soil as an oxidized water soluble fertilizer. You, since you are operating sustainably, want to retain the organic matter as a component of your soil system I would suspect. I would suggest that you consider generating biogas using an anaerobic digester to reduce the carbon content by 35 - 50% into biogas containing 60-65% methane and then recover the remainder of the carbon solids as compost for your soil. Soil organic matter is absolutely required to farm sustainability. This system would allow you to recover energy from the manure in sealed tanks when the odor potential is highest and compost the remainder of the solids aerobically into a soil conditioner. You also have water to handle which has a very high nutrient content as a supplemental fertilizer and can be used in irrigation. Work with nature at each level and benefit multiple times. There has been an absolute revolution in anaerobic digestion over the past five years. The tankage requirement has dropped to 1/4 the gallons required only five years ago. The process which previously required 30 - 40 days now can be done in 8 - 10 days. Art Krenzel, P.E. PHOENIX TECHNOLOGIES 10505 NE 285TH Street Battle Ground, WA 98604 360-666-1883 voice [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Kim & Garth Travis To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Wednesday, April 07, 2004 7:55 AM Subject: [biofuel] Rejoining list with a question Greetings, I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I hope to get to know all the new people. My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live and farm sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and cordwood. The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an article, by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in the garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more than 40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread manure. He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing of his 'findings' still needs to be done. If one can get both heat and fertilizer out of manure, then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam generator and be totally sustainable. The author states he got the idea from a friend from Thailand. There are no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about heat and the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy and too perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? Bright Blessings, Kim Keith, I told you I would be back Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT -- Yahoo! Groups Links a.. To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Rejoining list with a question
Greetings, I was a member of this list for several years, but quit to have time to learn other things. I hope all the regulars are doing well, and I hope to get to know all the new people. My husband and I own 20 acres in Texas and we are trying to live and farm sustainably. For now we are on the grid, but hope to change that one day. We practise alternative building, such as paper adobe and cordwood. The question: This months issue of Backwoods Home Magazine has an article, by Rev. J.D. Hooker, on burning manure. It states that they get 'somewhat greater heating value than seasoned hardwood.'By using the ashes in the garden, after several years of application have reach a rate of 'more than 40% higher' than the garden with either commercial fertilizer or spread manure. He did not compare it to composted manure, so much testing of his 'findings' still needs to be done. If one can get both heat and fertilizer out of manure, then one could use the manure to fire a wood fuel steam generator and be totally sustainable. The author states he got the idea from a friend from Thailand. There are no flaws mentioned in the article, and the article is only about heat and the garden. The steam generator is my idea. This seems to easy and too perfect, what is the flaw that I have missed? Bright Blessings, Kim Keith, I told you I would be back Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
