[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
Wow, I can't wait to really respond to this post! holy hogwash, Batman! sorry kids, I'm way, way too tired to do it justice after about 24 hours of moving shop in preparation for the landlord visit to our illegal warehouse living situation (the Visit of the Lord got put off another day after all that stress, so we're all still sitting here biting our nails about whether we're gonna get evicted (we did some seriously illegal building that he hasn't seen yet and there's no way to hide the fact that we;re living in a commercial space). anyway I'll give you a piece of my mind (no it ain't going to be a flame) tomorrow. But in short, oh boy, you're so talking to the wrong person about cars being the personal enabler of the poor !!! Actually, on that note, why is it that if you mention poverty and the dreaded 'society' word (or maybe it was poverty and the dreaded 'culture' word) to some people you can almost automatically expect to start hearing people bring up or allude to your supposed middle class guilt? (he brought up the other s-word, socialism- too!) I'm FROM the extreme poverty I'm talking aobut- urban not rural in my case- but I'm not some college grad idolizing idolizing what some poor redneck in north carolina went through. Anyhow those people were my friends a few years back and I know what I'm talking about there. In my case it's also personal- it's my mother I'm talking about when I go on about car culture and lack of public transportation limiting people's choices- you messed with my momma, dude :) anyway I do know very, very first hand how badly lack of car ownership or driving ability (license or whatever) limits where you can live and how much money you make. Next installment of speech tomorrow. mark by the way I;m still not arguing against insurance, mandatory insurance, or DUI laws, etc. Im not going to be sitting there telling the parent of a kid that just ran out in front of my car that I can't pay for their medical bills. --- In biofuel@yahoogroups.com, "aegent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Mark, > > I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the > "car-culture and rural poverty in the US" argument. > > On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the > costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. > seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. > > I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the > poverty line. These "car, wealthy people, society is the fault" > arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions > made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy > that caused all their problems. > > My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their > own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education > when I lived in rural areas. "you don't need that", "book learnin > won't make you smarter", "got book learning but no common sense", "Why > you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need > that college". > > Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to > middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people > about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the > socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else > took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a > major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been > there, done that. > > From what I saw, the personal auto is the great enabler of the poor. > It allows people to get to jobs that pay well but would be too far to > walk to or even bicycle to. Public transit makes a lot of sense in > high population density areas but it is not practical in rural areas. > Envision a usable public transit system in rural areas. Is this a once > a day bus or an hourly bus? How much would it cost? Who would pay for > it? Could it even be paid for (i.e. is there enough money anywhere to > build this system). > > I used to work in downtown Denver. When I was there I used the public > transit system as it only cost about 10 extra minutes to get to work. > Later I contracted further south and now the trip was over two hours > each way versus 45 minutes by car. Carving 4 or 5 hours out of a poor > persons day is not the way to make them rich or enable them. Public > transit has to address the most ridership for the most people. We keep > forgetting how sparse that the US population is when compared to > Europe or Japan. > > BTW: There is always the tractor, I've seen ppl traveling by that > vehicle and that does not even require a license. > > td > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages
Re: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
On Wed, 5 Mar 2003 03:24, you wrote: > Mark, > Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to > middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people > about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the > socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else > took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a > major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been > there, done that. > > From what I saw, the personal auto is the great enabler of the poor. > It allows people to get to jobs that pay well but would be too far to > walk to or even bicycle to. Public transit makes a lot of sense in > high population density areas but it is not practical in rural areas. > Envision a usable public transit system in rural areas. Is this a once > a day bus or an hourly bus? How much would it cost? Who would pay for > it? Could it even be paid for (i.e. is there enough money anywhere to > build this system). > td All I can say to your comments on rural public transport is Hogwash! I lived in Sweden in 1985. Their population density is low in country areas, yet there was quite good public transport available in medium sized provincial towns. I worked with people that travelled to work by PT at some centres in Sweden. Sweden is a Socialist led country , so welfare minded - but I disagree that everyone should be responsible for all their own welfare. There has to be Govt assistance to even up the living costs between city & country, otherwise the country will be more de-populated. Careful help with indrastructure, & sympathetic use of tax laws for disadvantaged areas can help build the prosperity so eventually decrease the reliance on this Govt help. This is one major failing of the current worldwide Govt push for less Govt intervention in local infrastructure. (This has been a real failure in Australia, where the Victorian govt which was previously running the buses in Melbourne at a controllable loss, sold the system to a Private Co, who then 'rationalised' services, lost heaps of money, then asked the Govt to bail them out!) regards Doug Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
kirk, Yep, I did leave but that was not my only option. It was also my choice and my wifes choice. My decisions have largely got me here through hard work (I worked two jobs for many years). I believe that anyone anywhere in the US can be successful if they believe in themselves and work hard for themselves. Hey, if I can do it, anyone can. As to the evils of corporate greed. I often hear workers complain about how shabbily thay are treated but they don't seem to want the bosses job. Nor do they want to quit and start their own company. As to the Dickens novel, try spending a week in a third world country and you will appreciate that most of these arguments in the US are just averice showing its ugly head. Most of our "wage slaves" and our poor have hot & cold running water, electricity, color televisions, microwave ovens, cars, and other luxuries. In Mumbai (Bombay) alone, I was told that there are 2 million people who will never have a roof over their heads, nor can they hope to. I saw them sleeping on the street and sidewalks. I saw working class housing that in the US would be considered a slum. We simly do not have any idea how good we've got it. Maybe we should talk about the evils of socialism and how it makes everyone poor? As to the top dog making big bucks, well until I'm ready to step into his job and take on the headaches, he can have it and I feel no jealousy over his takings. I do however get riled if the takings are not above board and obtained through lying, cheating, and stealing as we seem to be seeing in a very small number of companies. We do not see that across the board as the media would have us believe. I'm just saying that we all have options in the US. We can start our own companies and you will find that many small companies treat people well. You can do it and treat your staff as you see fit. The last company I worked for the President did not make any more than and possibly less than the top paid technical staff (things were tight). I am always finding ppl who complain about the top dog but are not willing to do the work the boss did to get there. I know what it takes, I'm not willing and he/she can have the big bucks. Its not worth it to me, my needs are simple. td Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
eport said they are not able to provide an adequate quantity of food to those in need. And nearly two-thirds of the cities reported they had to decrease the quantity of food provided and/or the number of times people can come to get food assistance. An average of 16 percent of the demand for emergency food assistance is estimated to have gone unmet in the survey cities.4 * America's Second Harvest, the nation's largest network of food banks, reports that 23.3 million people turned to the agencies they serve in 2001, an increase of over 2 million since 1997. Forty percent were from working families. 5 Cites and links to source material: 1. ERS Food Assistance and Nutrition Research Report No. (FANRR) 21, United States Department of Agriculture, March 2002. http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/fanrr21/ 2. Pediatrics, Vol. 110 No. 4, October 2002 http://www.pediatrics.org/cgi/content/abstract/110/4/e41 3. Food Stamp Caseloads are Rising, Joseph Llobrera, Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, November, 19, 2002. http://www.cbpp.org/1-15-02fa.htm 4. A Status Report on Hunger and Homelessness in America's Cities, U.S. Conference of Mayors, December 2002. http://www.usmayors.org/uscm/news/press_releases/documents/hunger_1218 02.asp 5. Hunger in America 2001, America's Second Harvest, http://www.secondharvest.org/whoshungry/hunger_study_intro.html Keith > >I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the >poverty line. These "car, wealthy people, society is the fault" >arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions >made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy >that caused all their problems. > >I used to work in downtown Denver. >-- > >Seems to me you left. Denver is not rural America. Many people -- or at >least their wives-- are not ready to leave all their family behind for urban >opportunity. That means the reality of minimum wage. > >I live in central Montana. Skilled blue collar workers get $7 to $10 an >hour. Yet repairs at a dealer are within 10% of LA prices. It is called >exploitation and it is not the fault of the man who lives here. The owners >of these corporations are USUALLY out of staters. Sort of a variation on >ghetto labor exploitation. The bad guys wear 3 piece suits and are pillars >of society. I see them as pirates or something out of a Dickens novel. You >want to be blind to their greed and manipulation OK but a little compassion >for your fellow worker would be a good thing.It's called empathy or >compassion. > >Kirk > > > >-----Original Message- >From: aegent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:24 AM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's >and > > >Mark, > >I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the >"car-culture and rural poverty in the US" argument. > >On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the >costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. >seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. > >I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the >poverty line. These "car, wealthy people, society is the fault" >arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions >made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy >that caused all their problems. > >My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their >own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education >when I lived in rural areas. "you don't need that", "book learnin >won't make you smarter", "got book learning but no common sense", "Why >you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need >that college". > >Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to >middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people >about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the >socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else >took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a >major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been >there, done that. > >From what I saw, the personal auto is the great enabler of the poor. >It allows people to get to jobs that pay well but would be too far to >walk to or even bicycle to. Public transit makes a lot of sense in >high population density areas but it is not practical in rural areas. >Envision a usable public transit system in rural areas. Is this a once >a
RE: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These "car, wealthy people, society is the fault" arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. I used to work in downtown Denver. -- Seems to me you left. Denver is not rural America. Many people -- or at least their wives-- are not ready to leave all their family behind for urban opportunity. That means the reality of minimum wage. I live in central Montana. Skilled blue collar workers get $7 to $10 an hour. Yet repairs at a dealer are within 10% of LA prices. It is called exploitation and it is not the fault of the man who lives here. The owners of these corporations are USUALLY out of staters. Sort of a variation on ghetto labor exploitation. The bad guys wear 3 piece suits and are pillars of society. I see them as pirates or something out of a Dickens novel. You want to be blind to their greed and manipulation OK but a little compassion for your fellow worker would be a good thing.It's called empathy or compassion. Kirk -Original Message- From: aegent <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:24 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and Mark, I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the "car-culture and rural poverty in the US" argument. On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These "car, wealthy people, society is the fault" arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education when I lived in rural areas. "you don't need that", "book learnin won't make you smarter", "got book learning but no common sense", "Why you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need that college". Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been there, done that.
[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
Mark, I agree with some of your post but must respectfully disagree with the "car-culture and rural poverty in the US" argument. On insurance, the issue is who is liable the driver or the car. If the costs were fairly allocated it would fix part of the problem. Gov't. seems to make problems worse whenever they get involved. I also lived in rural america (Kentucky) and I even lived below the poverty line. These "car, wealthy people, society is the fault" arguments never seem to place any value on the individual decisions made by the people. Its always culture, society, or some other bad guy that caused all their problems. My view is that the only reason anyone in america is poor is by their own choice. I have heard so many arguments against getting education when I lived in rural areas. "you don't need that", "book learnin won't make you smarter", "got book learning but no common sense", "Why you can stay here and work for less than minimum wage, you don't need that college". Having been below the poverty line and having worked my way up to middle class, I have no liberal guilt. I am happy to talk to people about how to resolve this but too many people have bought into the socialist view that the reason they are poor is because someone else took their share of the pie. Personal and individual decisions are a major and possibly the most significant part of this equation. Been there, done that.
[biofuel] car-culture and rural poverty in the US was Re: SUV's and
someone in some SUV thread wrote: > You should not have to have liability insurance before you get a > vehicle registration you might consider it manditory (I'd buy that) > that you have it before you get a drivers license regardless if you > own a car or not. > > td > and it triggered this for me: I've just got to jump in here and complain loudly about North Carolina (the state where I've lived the most out of my adult life, and where I got my first drivers license and first 10 (???) cars)- North Carolina has a regulation now on the books that to get a drivers license at all you have to have insurance. To have insurance you have to own a car. No car= no drivers' license. If you get rid of your car and cancel insurance you're supposed to surrender your drivers' license. In most states this is not the case. Ini North Carolina however, if you don't have a car but want a license (and if you live in a rural area with no public transit it sure and don't have a car, having a license is still necessary for things like informal carsharing, car renting, occasional emergency trips in borrowed vehicles, things that in all other states are OK by the insurers- trust me, the one accident I was in (in a friend's car in New Mexico) was covered by the friend's insurance)- anyway if you're car-free but want a license the NC DMV has a standard answer- find someone who'll add you to their car insurance policy. Which is all good and fine if you're a teenager living with parents- a considerably harder thing for all the adult, poor, schmoes I've ever picked up hitchhiking to work- I mean, people don't just put random neighbors/relatives on their policy- it's a huge trust and financial issue (I swear, I felt like NC was pretty hitchhiker-friendly just because so many state residents have at one point or another run afoul of the various driving laws there and know about 'walkin'!). It's a seemingly well-meaning law that made me wonder if the insurance lobby had somehow hijacked the state legislature. I saw some statistics once when I was living in the South. They were in a booklet put out by a weird Mormon (I think) woman who was singlehandedly running a homeless families shelter/food bank/clothing bank/ services nonprofit (a serious labor of love in her case) in North Georgia. After working with the extremely poor families and homeless people for a few years she figured out that the same theme kept coming up in these people's stories: in so many cases, cars started the families' slide into homelessness. She started looking at statistics and found a lot in the state and regional poverty statistics that backed up what she learned in the course of her work. I wish I had a copy of her statistics. The story was typically that rural residents need vehicles to go to jobs (there is effectively no public transportation in most of rural America. The rural South had at one time in history an excellent public transportation system- which was dismantled by the well-documented oil company/tire company buyout and closing down of the tram systems). Wages being what they are in the rural south, people tend to own crappy cars, something expensive breaks, the family can't afford the repair, and the person loses their job. Or people have poor driving records, dont pay their insurance bill, lose their insurance, get stopped for a busted tail-light, and lose their license (very common story). Or drinking and driving and losing of licenses is involved. And all of that leads to losing jobs... or not being able to travel to any kind of well-paying jobs... and not being able to save money to afford the next calamity... and quite often it leads to chronic poverty and sometimes on to homelessness. I've hung out with some exceedingly poor people all over the place, and I've certainly seen the stories behind these statistics myself. Not that I am at all arguing that we shouldn't require mandatory insurance laws or drunken driving laws. I am fully aware that I am piloting a dangerous weapon when I get behind the wheel. But I think a lot of, say, middle-class americans, have no idea how badly car-based culture destroys lives. If places like the rural south could invest more into public transit... arggh. but that's not how our society is structured. mark Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
