Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies...
The problem is that in my country ( Spain ) you can only compete if you are a big company ( you need to have a lot of inheritance to be approved to recieve the licence to sell hydrocarbures ). All the best. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2001 6:29 PM Subject: [biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies... Forget about retail and go for bulk sales to haulage companies. If biodesel is cheaper per mile (including excise tax) they will buy. If it's not they won't. Most German biodiesel is made from new vege oil, they have approx a $0.50(US) excise tax difference which seems to work. UK will have only a $0.30(US) margin tight even for waste oil.--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED]..., Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> Hi Jan> > Didn't you mean to send this to [EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Keith> > >Hi Pedro and Mauro,> >> >Maybe this is good point to exchange information how thing go in > >different countries> >> >I can say few words on Poland and the situation of biofules:> >> >Bioethanol :> >> >We have two big producers (refineries) of petrol in our country. > >They used to produce leaded> >fuel among others.> >Now the leaded fuel is on the decline.> >> >And as they say the bioethanol was most suitable to mix with leaded fuel.> >Because of that many producers of ethanol are on the virge of > >bankrupcy since the refineries> >reject to buy ethanol.> >> >And despite the law regulation that benzines that contain at least > >5% of bioethanol are exempted> >from the excise tax there is no demand for bioethanol.> >> >This is simply because refinery prefers to add several cents to the > >price of one liter of the petrol> >and have this problem off their head.> >Who pays for it ? Of course all motorists.> >> >Biodiesel:> >> >No excise duty (or tax if you will) for biodiesel> >> >but.> >> >Poland used to be rapeseed superpower (almost 5% of worlds crop > >were located here) and> >almost 100% of rapeseed was used to produce vegetable oils and > >derivatives (margarine and the> >like). Farmers had contracts with vegetable oil companies (very > >much the same as sugar> >beetroot farmers with sugar refineries) and were paid rather good price.> >Today this price is about PLN 900/metric tonne i.e. US $ 225/tonne > >of rapeseed.> >This can be a hindrance to further development of biodiesel> >Petrodiesel cost on the wholesale market PLN 2200 to 2300 i.e. $525 > >to $575/tonne.> >> >The petrol stations belong to refineries and they...are not > >interested in biodiesel because this> >could take away profits from their owner (at least they think like that).> >> >Maybe giants are the same everywhere ? Of course official > >argumentation is that e.g. bioethanol> >is not suitable to mix with high grade benzines or that biodiesel > >does not comply with the quality> >requirements of standard diesel. This sounds very professional - > >but is it true ??? That is another> >story.> >> >Does it contribute a little to the whole picture ? Does it > >supplement the Spanish case ?> >> >Awaiting your opinions> >> >jan surowka> >[EMAIL PROTECTED]Biofuels at Journey to Foreverhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlBiofuel at WebConXhttp://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htmTo unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:[EMAIL PROTECTED]Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies...
Forget about retail and go for bulk sales to haulage companies. If biodesel is cheaper per mile (including excise tax) they will buy. If it's not they won't. Most German biodiesel is made from new vege oil, they have approx a $0.50(US) excise tax difference which seems to work. UK will have only a $0.30(US) margin tight even for waste oil. --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Jan > > Didn't you mean to send this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Keith > > >Hi Pedro and Mauro, > > > >Maybe this is good point to exchange information how thing go in > >different countries > > > >I can say few words on Poland and the situation of biofules: > > > >Bioethanol : > > > >We have two big producers (refineries) of petrol in our country. > >They used to produce leaded > >fuel among others. > >Now the leaded fuel is on the decline. > > > >And as they say the bioethanol was most suitable to mix with leaded fuel. > >Because of that many producers of ethanol are on the virge of > >bankrupcy since the refineries > >reject to buy ethanol. > > > >And despite the law regulation that benzines that contain at least > >5% of bioethanol are exempted > >from the excise tax there is no demand for bioethanol. > > > >This is simply because refinery prefers to add several cents to the > >price of one liter of the petrol > >and have this problem off their head. > >Who pays for it ? Of course all motorists. > > > >Biodiesel: > > > >No excise duty (or tax if you will) for biodiesel > > > >but. > > > >Poland used to be rapeseed superpower (almost 5% of worlds crop > >were located here) and > >almost 100% of rapeseed was used to produce vegetable oils and > >derivatives (margarine and the > >like). Farmers had contracts with vegetable oil companies (very > >much the same as sugar > >beetroot farmers with sugar refineries) and were paid rather good price. > >Today this price is about PLN 900/metric tonne i.e. US $ 225/tonne > >of rapeseed. > >This can be a hindrance to further development of biodiesel > >Petrodiesel cost on the wholesale market PLN 2200 to 2300 i.e. $525 > >to $575/tonne. > > > >The petrol stations belong to refineries and they...are not > >interested in biodiesel because this > >could take away profits from their owner (at least they think like that). > > > >Maybe giants are the same everywhere ? Of course official > >argumentation is that e.g. bioethanol > >is not suitable to mix with high grade benzines or that biodiesel > >does not comply with the quality > >requirements of standard diesel. This sounds very professional - > >but is it true ??? That is another > >story. > > > >Does it contribute a little to the whole picture ? Does it > >supplement the Spanish case ? > > > >Awaiting your opinions > > > >jan surowka > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies...
In my opinion, if you can't undercut dino you don't have a business. If you can make biodesel/methyl ester at less cost per litre after tax than petroleum (dino) diesel fuel, you can sell it in bulk to haulage companies and bus operators. As for ethanol look at www.iogen.ca. They have a commercial enzyme process that converts cellulose from timber straw and waste paper/card into ethanol. I have no idea if it's cheaper after excise tax than dino fuel, but it's certainly clean and renewable. With dino at current prices, the fuel excise tax system has to favour non-petroleum fuels. Dave --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Jan > > Didn't you mean to send this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Keith > > >Hi Pedro and Mauro, > > > >Maybe this is good point to exchange information how thing go in > >different countries > > > >I can say few words on Poland and the situation of biofules: > > > >Bioethanol : > > > >We have two big producers (refineries) of petrol in our country. > >They used to produce leaded > >fuel among others. > >Now the leaded fuel is on the decline. > > > >And as they say the bioethanol was most suitable to mix with leaded fuel. > >Because of that many producers of ethanol are on the virge of > >bankrupcy since the refineries > >reject to buy ethanol. > > > >And despite the law regulation that benzines that contain at least > >5% of bioethanol are exempted > >from the excise tax there is no demand for bioethanol. > > > >This is simply because refinery prefers to add several cents to the > >price of one liter of the petrol > >and have this problem off their head. > >Who pays for it ? Of course all motorists. > > > >Biodiesel: > > > >No excise duty (or tax if you will) for biodiesel > > > >but. > > > >Poland used to be rapeseed superpower (almost 5% of worlds crop > >were located here) and > >almost 100% of rapeseed was used to produce vegetable oils and > >derivatives (margarine and the > >like). Farmers had contracts with vegetable oil companies (very > >much the same as sugar > >beetroot farmers with sugar refineries) and were paid rather good price. > >Today this price is about PLN 900/metric tonne i.e. US $ 225/tonne > >of rapeseed. > >This can be a hindrance to further development of biodiesel > >Petrodiesel cost on the wholesale market PLN 2200 to 2300 i.e. $525 > >to $575/tonne. > > > >The petrol stations belong to refineries and they...are not > >interested in biodiesel because this > >could take away profits from their owner (at least they think like that). > > > >Maybe giants are the same everywhere ? Of course official > >argumentation is that e.g. bioethanol > >is not suitable to mix with high grade benzines or that biodiesel > >does not comply with the quality > >requirements of standard diesel. This sounds very professional - > >but is it true ??? That is another > >story. > > > >Does it contribute a little to the whole picture ? Does it > >supplement the Spanish case ? > > > >Awaiting your opinions > > > >jan surowka > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies...
Hello Jan and Pedro, In Argentina the situation is diferent. Our fuel tax is law called ITC. This law was made when no body know the biodiesel and for this reason don«t biodiesel don«t have fuel tax, the problem in this situation is that we don«t have security in the comming year. So, we are pulling a law to create a "Tax Stability" (to continue with out tax). The ethanol, don«t have tax by law. Th ethanol production start in Argentina in the 70«s, from sugar cane (like Brasil). The first idea was a straigth blending (Gasohol = 82%gasoline + 18% alcohol). But our lands and climate are not enougth tropically (like in Brasil). So the production go down. Today we had a very little production, and the goberment is not interested in replace MTBE by ETBE. The biodiesel production don«t exist (less than 10.000tn year), but have a big future, because Argentina is the biggest Vegeable Oil Exporter in the world (we export 4.000.000 tn/year). In this moment in Argentina Biodiesel (without taxes) can be soo much cheaper than diesel (0,35 US$/lt vs 0,55 US$/lt). So I think that we can have a market of about 1.200.000 tn/year (this is the volume of imported diesel per year). In today we have in Argentina 3 project to build biodiesel plants. In Santa Fe, BioFe project 5.000 tn/year, in Cordoba, Monte Buey«s project 30.000 tn, in Buenos Aires province, in Tres Arroyos city 40.000 tn (I«m the principal in this project), this project maybe will have a Continuos Process plant (ultra efficient) with glycerine refination (99.7% purity, Farmacopea quality). Some questions for Jan, What means PLN 900 or PLN 2200 to 2300? Best Regards. Mauro Ariel Knudsen. Argentinean Biodieseler --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> escribi: > Hi Jan > > Didn't you mean to send this to > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Keith > > >Hi Pedro and Mauro, > > > >Maybe this is good point to exchange information > how thing go in > >different countries > > > >I can say few words on Poland and the situation of > biofules: > > > >Bioethanol : > > > >We have two big producers (refineries) of petrol > in our country. > >They used to produce leaded > >fuel among others. > >Now the leaded fuel is on the decline. > > > >And as they say the bioethanol was most suitable to > mix with leaded fuel. > >Because of that many producers of ethanol are on > the virge of > >bankrupcy since the refineries > >reject to buy ethanol. > > > >And despite the law regulation that benzines that > contain at least > >5% of bioethanol are exempted > >from the excise tax there is no demand for > bioethanol. > > > >This is simply because refinery prefers to add > several cents to the > >price of one liter of the petrol > >and have this problem off their head. > >Who pays for it ? Of course all motorists. > > > >Biodiesel: > > > >No excise duty (or tax if you will) for > biodiesel > > > >but. > > > >Poland used to be rapeseed superpower (almost 5% > of worlds crop > >were located here) and > >almost 100% of rapeseed was used to produce > vegetable oils and > >derivatives (margarine and the > >like). Farmers had contracts with vegetable oil > companies (very > >much the same as sugar > >beetroot farmers with sugar refineries) and were > paid rather good price. > >Today this price is about PLN 900/metric tonne i.e. > US $ 225/tonne > >of rapeseed. > >This can be a hindrance to further development of > biodiesel > >Petrodiesel cost on the wholesale market PLN 2200 > to 2300 i.e. $525 > >to $575/tonne. > > > >The petrol stations belong to refineries and > they...are not > >interested in biodiesel because this > >could take away profits from their owner (at least > they think like that). > > > >Maybe giants are the same everywhere ? Of course > official > >argumentation is that e.g. bioethanol > >is not suitable to mix with high grade benzines or > that biodiesel > >does not comply with the quality > >requirements of standard diesel. This sounds very > professional - > >but is it true ??? That is another > >story. > > > >Does it contribute a little to the whole picture ? > Does it > >supplement the Spanish case ? > > > >Awaiting your opinions > > > >jan surowka > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Biofuels at Journey to Forever > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > Biofuel at WebConX > http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _ ÀLo probaste? Correo gratis y para toda la vida en http://correo.yahoo.com.ar Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies...
Well, here in Spain there is another view. The hidrocarbure Market is liberalizated and there is more than 2 refineries . But you need to be Bill Gates ( a richman person or very rich companie ) to be a wholesale petrol operator ( 5.000 millions ptas 30.050.605 euros ). I imagine in the future, Polland (in the E.U. )will have more competition. We no use leaded fuel in Spain ( only very old vehicles and in the future it«s going to be banned, following the laws ). There is a company in Spain named Ecocarburantes, that mixes the gasoline with ethanol (ETB ) . It«s situated in Escombreras ( Murcia ), near the refineries. It has obtained the exemption ( of the alcohol excise duty and the petrol excise duty) , the first one in Spains and I think the last upto the appeal of the exemption is going to be resolved. In the future, I imagine the gasoline motors ( for new cars ) will be banned, because they are contaminators ( cannot use renewable energies, like biodiesel ). I believe more in Biodiesel and Bio-oils. People uses directly the sunflower oil to mix with the petrodiesel ( 50 % ) and from time to time they clean the motor. Another source for power it«s biodiesel from waste oil. You need authoritation to pick it up. The more succesfull companies are the little and middle companies ( the big companies need less protection in this field against the Middle And Litlle Enterprises, M.A.L.E.). The petro-station, for sure, won«t sell the biodiesel, because there is not enough and they are dominated by big operator ( CEPSA, BP, REPSOL-YPF and so on ). So, we need a more clean Market for petro-stations ( I believe all over the world ). So we can fight for not exclusivity contract between petrol operator and fuel-stations. In 2.010 ( how long ) at least 10 % of the energy must be renewable ( European Union Decission ). http://www.eea.eu.int/ We have just created the Spanish Biodiesel and Renewable Energies Association. I believe we need an European Association too ( the BP appeal in the European Court it«s a demostration we need it ). I, like you too, believe that a Report about all the European Hidrocarbures Market and the Biofuels there it«s important. Pedro. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
[biofuels-biz] Re: brain strom - can the small companies compete against big oil companies...
Hi Jan Didn't you mean to send this to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Keith >Hi Pedro and Mauro, > >Maybe this is good point to exchange information how thing go in >different countries > >I can say few words on Poland and the situation of biofules: > >Bioethanol : > >We have two big producers (refineries) of petrol in our country. >They used to produce leaded >fuel among others. >Now the leaded fuel is on the decline. > >And as they say the bioethanol was most suitable to mix with leaded fuel. >Because of that many producers of ethanol are on the virge of >bankrupcy since the refineries >reject to buy ethanol. > >And despite the law regulation that benzines that contain at least >5% of bioethanol are exempted >from the excise tax there is no demand for bioethanol. > >This is simply because refinery prefers to add several cents to the >price of one liter of the petrol >and have this problem off their head. >Who pays for it ? Of course all motorists. > >Biodiesel: > >No excise duty (or tax if you will) for biodiesel > >but. > >Poland used to be rapeseed superpower (almost 5% of worlds crop >were located here) and >almost 100% of rapeseed was used to produce vegetable oils and >derivatives (margarine and the >like). Farmers had contracts with vegetable oil companies (very >much the same as sugar >beetroot farmers with sugar refineries) and were paid rather good price. >Today this price is about PLN 900/metric tonne i.e. US $ 225/tonne >of rapeseed. >This can be a hindrance to further development of biodiesel >Petrodiesel cost on the wholesale market PLN 2200 to 2300 i.e. $525 >to $575/tonne. > >The petrol stations belong to refineries and they...are not >interested in biodiesel because this >could take away profits from their owner (at least they think like that). > >Maybe giants are the same everywhere ? Of course official >argumentation is that e.g. bioethanol >is not suitable to mix with high grade benzines or that biodiesel >does not comply with the quality >requirements of standard diesel. This sounds very professional - >but is it true ??? That is another >story. > >Does it contribute a little to the whole picture ? Does it >supplement the Spanish case ? > >Awaiting your opinions > >jan surowka >[EMAIL PROTECTED] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://www.webconx.com/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
