Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel

2002-06-16 Thread Keith Addison

Hello Peter

But we're not talking about water in diesel. A water mist injection 
into the air intake, yes, but the water in the fuel side of it 
concerns water dissolved in a biodiesel-ethanol blend. There's no 
free water content, it's dissolved. With biodiesel, there's not 
likely to be any lack of lubricity in the upper cylinder area no 
matter how much ethanol is used, and microorganisms don't seem to be 
a problem with biodiesel. There's no need for harsh solvents, 
biodiesel does a good job of cleaning out all the gunge in the tank 
etc in the first couple of weeks. Harry was talking of a 10% ethanol, 
10% water, 20% biodiesel, 60% petrodiesel blend using an emulsifier - 
again, no free water. The EPA report referred to details 23 studies 
of water-fuel emulsions - petrodiesel, yes, but emulsified: no free 
water.

"Following is a list of studies that are being considered for
inclusion in work being done by EPA to assess the effects of
water-fuel emulsions on emissions of oxides of nitrogen (NOx),
hydrocarbons (HC), and particulate matter (PM)."
http://www.epa.gov/otaq/models/analysis/emulsion/emulbibl.pdf

The French ACREVO study found this:

It has been established that an addition of 9 % of ethyl alcohol (95 
%) bring a great benefit regarding the pre-heating oil temperature. 
In fact, the presence of alcohol allows a reduction in the inlet oil 
temperature from 150 ¡C to 80 ¡C. Moreover, the combustion of the 
emulsion produces less soot and, at the exhaust, the amount is almost 
one half less than that produced by the combustion of rapeseed oil.
http://www.nf-2000.org/secure/Fair/F484.htm

It seems water, one way or the other or both, will give combustion 
and emissions improvements which could be considerable, especially 
with an ethanol blend.

Best

Keith


>I have been reading with interest the subject of water injection for
>diesels.
>Further to Marc's comments I would like to add the following  5%
>water in diesel will damage the fuel pump and injectors by replacing the
>lubricating properties of the diesel, diesel from your local supplier can
>have up to 3% free water before it gets to your tank. Add to that a daily
>change of ambient temperature of 7û F or more, causing condensation inside
>your fuel tank and you can get over the 5%, most of which can settle out if
>not disturbed and create another problem of Micro Organisms growing in your
>tank.
>Over the years many 'additives' have been flogged to combat water, micro
>organisms, and system cleaning. The main product used to combat water has
>been various alcohols. There are several problems with using alcohols,
>firstly it breaks the water up into different size particles which can still
>reunite in the fuel system and cause damage, a good example of this is
>collecting in the injector tips, turning into steam with enough force to
>blow the end off the injector. Excess alcohol in the diesel can also leed to
>lubricating problems in the upper cylinder area and increased cylinder
>temperatures, this over time can cause piston cracking. Adding alcohol has
>no effect for control or eliminating micro organisms. A harsh solvent called
>'toluene', used mainly in paints, is used to clean fuel systems which in
>very dirty systems will cause filter blocking and low power. It will also
>damage rubbers, nylons and other plastics which are found in todays fuel
>systems.
>I am not against fuel treatments (as opposed to additives), water injection
>or other technologies. If water was to be injected into the air intake
>stream, then there would have to be some way to shut off the injection prior
>to shutting down the engine to prevent cylinder corrosion. Also injection
>would have to be after the turbo charger (if fitted) to prevent the likely
>hood of damage to the impellor.
>Hope my experience and knowledge was of benefit to you all.
>regards
>Peter


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Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel

2002-06-16 Thread Setrac Diesel Products

I have been reading with interest the subject of water injection for
diesels.
Further to Marc's comments I would like to add the following  5%
water in diesel will damage the fuel pump and injectors by replacing the
lubricating properties of the diesel, diesel from your local supplier can
have up to 3% free water before it gets to your tank. Add to that a daily
change of ambient temperature of 7û F or more, causing condensation inside
your fuel tank and you can get over the 5%, most of which can settle out if
not disturbed and create another problem of Micro Organisms growing in your
tank. 
Over the years many 'additives' have been flogged to combat water, micro
organisms, and system cleaning. The main product used to combat water has
been various alcohols. There are several problems with using alcohols,
firstly it breaks the water up into different size particles which can still
reunite in the fuel system and cause damage, a good example of this is
collecting in the injector tips, turning into steam with enough force to
blow the end off the injector. Excess alcohol in the diesel can also leed to
lubricating problems in the upper cylinder area and increased cylinder
temperatures, this over time can cause piston cracking. Adding alcohol has
no effect for control or eliminating micro organisms. A harsh solvent called
'toluene', used mainly in paints, is used to clean fuel systems which in
very dirty systems will cause filter blocking and low power. It will also
damage rubbers, nylons and other plastics which are found in todays fuel
systems.
I am not against fuel treatments (as opposed to additives), water injection
or other technologies. If water was to be injected into the air intake
stream, then there would have to be some way to shut off the injection prior
to shutting down the engine to prevent cylinder corrosion. Also injection
would have to be after the turbo charger (if fitted) to prevent the likely
hood of damage to the impellor.
Hope my experience and knowledge was of benefit to you all.
regards
Peter




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Re: [biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel

2002-06-09 Thread Neoteric Biofuels Inc.


Since rapeseed oil was used to lubricate steam engines, because of its
properties of clinging to cylinder walls and resisting being washed off by
steam...

"The crop has undergone a great metamorphosis in quality and production
since it was first grown as an emergency war measure on a few acres in 1942.
At that time, rapeseed oil was considered an essential lubricant because it
could cling to water- and steam-washed metal surfaces better than any other
oil. Since the naval ships and trains of the time were steam-powered, and
with the European and Asian rape oil supplies cut off, Canada was asked to
undertake production. "

http://www.hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/proceedings1990/v1-211.html

 and since we have evidence of how incredibly lubricating it is,

"In the case of biodiesel oil made from canola, the University of
Saskatchewan has shown that a 1% addition to petroleum diesel fuel would
help reduce engine wear by 40%"

http://www.agr.gc.ca/misb/spcrops/framework_e.phtml#3.2.1


 I wonder if the potential for water corrosion is reduced by the presence of
that oil, versus the fossil diesel.



Edward Beggs, BES, MSc
http://www.biofuels.ca






on 6/9/02 4:33 AM, F. Marc de Piolenc at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> Basically, the reason for excluding water from diesel fuel - aside from
> its devastating effect in cold climates - is to prevent corrosion of the
> injection system.
> 
> A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output
> under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to
> prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then
> engine "dry" and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You
> stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed
> water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine.
> 
> Marc de Piolenc


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[biofuels-biz] Water injection vs. water in fuel

2002-06-09 Thread F. Marc de Piolenc

Basically, the reason for excluding water from diesel fuel - aside from
its devastating effect in cold climates - is to prevent corrosion of the
injection system.

A water mist is helpful in moderating combustion and boosting output
under come circumstances, but it, too, must be used with caution to
prevent corrosion of the upper cylinder. Basically, you start then
engine "dry" and start the mist only when it is fully warmed up. You
stop the mist before stopping the engine, giving time for any condensed
water in the intake manifold to vaporize and go through the engine.

Marc de Piolenc
-- 
Remember September 11, 2001 but don't forget July 4, 1776

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. - Benjamin Franklin



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