RE: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
It is at this point I feel compelled to write for the first time to this mailing group. I originally signed up out of professional interest as my company are in the middle of producing a publication regarding biofuels, and I wanted to increase my knowledge on the subject. Of late, I have not learned anything due to the political debate. I am now so angered by what I have read in the email below (that there will be "minor physcial damage to Iraq") that I felt a genuine need to express my feelings. In every war that has ever been of magnitude, there is always wide spread destruction and suffering, and mostly to the innocent, not those who should prehaps be taken to task. A full scale attack on Iraq will not rid the world of Saddam - you can be gauranteed that he will be in the safest possible place. It will be the average Iraqi citizen who will be maimed by war, thus perpetuating the general hatred and distrust of the west thoughout the middle east. As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have got even this far in their quest for blood shed. A hail of bombs is not going to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be another Saddam or Bin Laden. -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 28 February 2003 13:38 To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn Posted on another list by a pro-war American: "Normally only a major shock changes the course of history---the impact of a professionalized Roman Legion, the Revolutionary War, utter, unconditional, devastated wasteland defeat of WWII Japan and Germany. The shock of an unconditionally defeated Iraq, accompanied by minor physical damage and Iraqi fatalities is not of such magnitude." Not an ill-informed person, but how can he think that? Minor damage and fatalities - 800 cruise missiles in two days? Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman said: "You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes." Minor damage? Yet that's what the pro-war folks think - minor damage. Just another major disconnect in the pro-war thinking - they just can't seem to focus on what's going on. Such as the oil connection. Keith http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544 WorkingForChange- Geov Parrish workingforchange.com 02.24.03 Forget duct tape; we need protecting from the Bush White House, and from the record levels of new and deepening anti- American sentiment it is generating daily. Shock and Yawn Plan could kill millions in 48 hours -- why don't Americans care? Exactly a month ago Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman, in a CBS-TV interview, publicly revealed for the first time the Pentagon's "Shock and Awe" plan for its assault upon Iraq, should (or when) George W. Bush orders it. Ullman's information was subsequently confirmed by a number of sources; it's for real. Here is what I wrote about it in my column of January 30: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425 "The plan includes simultaneous ground invasions from north and south... It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining down on its people, in two days, over 800 cruise missiles -- more than were used in the entire Gulf War. Ullman... characterized the Baghdad assault thusly: `You have this simultaneous effect, rather like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but minutes.' It would be a firestorm, a Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering proportions. "Such a plan, of course, makes a mockery of Donald Rumsfeld's ritual insistence that the Pentagon takes enormous care to avoid civilian casualties; the plan apparently is to kill a staggering percentage of Baghdad's civilian population in the first day alone. ... The name refers to the demoralizing effect such an attack would have on Iraqis, an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of Hiroshima (and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki. But those were, both military and diplomatically, demonstration attacks -- suggesting what could be done to the imperial rulers themselves and to Tokyo, a city far more valuable and populous than Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined. "In Iraq, Baghdad is the capitol." Now, those plans, and sentiments of horror similar to mine, have been echoing around the Internet for a month; they've been featured extensively in alternative publications that have come out during that time. Which is precisely the problem. The United States is planning to suck all the oxygen out of the air with a fireball over the heads of the five million residents of Baghdad -- so that, as another Pentagon interviewee said, "nobody in Baghdad will be safe," whether above ground or below. This has been well-documented public knowledge for a month, widely
Re: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
Thank you for this, Liz, and welcome. I daresay, though, there have been some relevant posts on biofuels topics, as well as politics, almost every day though...maybe only a few, but you never know when an absolute gem of a biofuels thought will appear, and we must all be diligent in watching and waiting. A bit like fly fishing while swatting mosquitoes some days...you wonder why you are there, and then ;-) Edward Beggs http://www.biofuels.ca On Friday, February 28, 2003, at 06:24 AM, Burnett, Liz wrote: > It is at this point I feel compelled to write for the first time to > this > mailing group. I originally signed up out of professional interest as > my > company are in the middle of producing a publication regarding > biofuels, and > I wanted to increase my knowledge on the subject. Of late, I have not > learned anything due to the political debate. > > I am now so angered by what I have read in the email below (that there > will > be "minor physcial damage to Iraq") that I felt a genuine need to > express my > feelings. In every war that has ever been of magnitude, there is > always > wide spread destruction and suffering, and mostly to the innocent, not > those > who should prehaps be taken to task. A full scale attack on Iraq will > not > rid the world of Saddam - you can be gauranteed that he will be in the > safest possible place. It will be the average Iraqi citizen who will > be > maimed by war, thus perpetuating the general hatred and distrust of > the west > thoughout the middle east. > > As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have > got > even this far in their quest for blood shed. A hail of bombs is not > going > to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be > another > Saddam or Bin Laden. > > -Original Message- > From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: 28 February 2003 13:38 > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn > > > Posted on another list by a pro-war American: "Normally only a major > shock changes the course of history---the impact of a > professionalized Roman Legion, the Revolutionary War, utter, > unconditional, devastated wasteland defeat of WWII Japan and Germany. > The shock of an unconditionally defeated Iraq, accompanied by minor > physical damage and Iraqi fatalities is not of such magnitude." > > Not an ill-informed person, but how can he think that? Minor damage > and fatalities - 800 cruise missiles in two days? Pentagon planner > Harlan Ullman said: "You have this simultaneous effect, rather like > the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but > minutes." Minor damage? > > Yet that's what the pro-war folks think - minor damage. Just another > major disconnect in the pro-war thinking - they just can't seem to > focus on what's going on. Such as the oil connection. > > Keith > > > http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544 > WorkingForChange- > > Geov Parrish > workingforchange.com > 02.24.03 > > Forget duct tape; we need protecting from the Bush White House, and > from the record levels of new and deepening anti- American sentiment > it is generating daily. > > Shock and Yawn > Plan could kill millions in 48 hours -- why don't Americans care? > > Exactly a month ago Pentagon planner Harlan Ullman, in a CBS-TV > interview, publicly revealed for the first time the Pentagon's "Shock > and Awe" plan for its assault upon Iraq, should (or when) George W. > Bush orders it. > > Ullman's information was subsequently confirmed by a number of > sources; it's for real. Here is what I wrote about it in my column of > January 30: > > http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?itemid=14425 > > "The plan includes simultaneous ground invasions from north and > south... It also includes a sudden decimation of Baghdad by raining > down on its people, in two days, over 800 cruise missiles -- more > than were used in the entire Gulf War. Ullman... characterized the > Baghdad assault thusly: `You have this simultaneous effect, rather > like the nuclear weapons of Hiroshima, not taking days or weeks but > minutes.' It would be a firestorm, a Dresden or Tokyo with 60 years > of new technology. It would be a war crime of quick and staggering > proportions. > > "Such a plan, of course, makes a mockery of Donald Rumsfeld's ritual > insistence that the Pentagon takes enormous care to avoid civilian > casualties; the plan apparently is to kill a staggering percentage of > Baghdad's civilian population in the first day alone. ... The name > refers to the demoralizing effect such an attack would have on > Iraqis, an effect, presumably, similar to the instant (although > already planned) surrender of Japan after the gratuitous bombing of > Hiroshima (and even more gratuitous bombing of Nagasaki. But those > were, both military and diplomatically, demonstration attacks -- > suggesting what could be done to the imperial rulers t
Re: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
heheheh ... that's funny!! (LOL) I love your analogy! Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Neoteric Biofuels Inc <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Thank you for this, Liz, and welcome. I daresay, though, there have been some relevant posts on biofuels topics, as well as politics, almost every day though...maybe only a few, but you never know when an absolute gem of a biofuels thought will appear, and we must all be diligent in watching and waiting. A bit like fly fishing while swatting mosquitoes some days...you wonder why you are there, and then Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
Burnett, Liz wrote: "As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have got even this far in their quest for blood shed.Ê A hail of bombs is not going to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be another Saddam or Bin Laden." OK so if I understand you correctly you are saying that if we just leave Iraq alone then the fine average citizen will always have a tyrant like Saddam or Bin Laden to miss use power and they can expect to continue to have large numbers of there people oppressed, tortured or killed each year as has been the practice. In this case there is no hope for any kind of positive future for these people. On the other hand if there is an effort, through war, to remove the Dictator and try to find a way for these people to have the same basic rights and freedoms enjoyed by the Europeans and the people of the USA then if it costs a few people killed it is a greater price and that they can pay such a price and they are condemned to live with no hope forever. It is only my opinion but I think the people of the Middle East are fine people and they deserve a better fate than the one of being oppressed by violent Dictators forever. Best regards, Vern Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] Shock and Yawn
>Burnett, Liz wrote: > >"As a british citizen, I am amazed that our respective governments have got >even this far in their quest for blood shed. A hail of bombs is not going >to solve the problems in the middle east - and there will always be another >Saddam or Bin Laden." > > > > >OK so if I understand you correctly you are saying that if we just leave >Iraq alone then the fine average citizen will always have a tyrant like >Saddam or Bin Laden to miss use power and they can expect to continue to >have large numbers of there people oppressed, tortured or killed each year >as has been the practice. In this case there is no hope for any kind of >positive future for these people. > >On the other hand if there is an effort, through war, to remove the >Dictator and try to find a way for these people to have the same basic >rights and freedoms enjoyed by the Europeans and the people of the USA then >if it costs a few people killed it is a greater price and that they can pay >such a price and they are condemned to live with no hope forever. > >It is only my opinion but I think the people of the Middle East are fine >people and they deserve a better fate than the one of being oppressed by >violent Dictators forever. > >Best regards, >Vern It seems you haven't even read the article Liz was commenting on. Come on, Vern, give it a try, it won't hurt much! It's right here, just double-click on the blue line: http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=14544 Shock and Yawn Plan could kill millions in 48 hours -- why don't Americans care? And try these while you're at it - all been posted before, recently, but I guess you didn't read them either. If you want to take part in this debate, or in any debate, it rather helps to know something about what's being discussed, or risk making a fool of yourself. "... How has the downfall of scores of such autocratic regimes in the past twenty years been accomplished? In no case was it done through foreign invasion. In only a handful of cases was it done through internal armed revolution. In the vast major of cases, dictatorships were toppled through massive nonviolent action, "people power" movements that faced down the tanks and guns and swept these regimes aside. "Why hasn't this been successful in the case of Iraq? Most of these successful nonviolent pro-democracy movements have been centered in the urban middle class. In Iraq, however, thanks to the devastation to the country's civilian infrastructure during the U.S. bombing campaign twelve years ago and the resulting sanctions, the once-burgeoning middle class has been reduced to penury or forced to emigrate. It has been replaced by a new class of black marketeers who have a stake in preserving the status quo. Furthermore, with sanctions forcing the Iraqi people to become dependent on the regime for rations of badly needed food, medicine, and other necessities, people are even less likely to take the already extraordinary risks of challenging it. "Many Iraqis believe that if United States had pursued a more rational policy over the past two decades, regime change would have taken place years ago as a result of initiatives of the Iraqi people themselves. The sanctions have not only had serious humanitarian consequences--resulting in the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children from malnutrition and preventable diseases--but have actually strengthened Saddam Hussein's grip on power..." See: http://www.fpif.org/commentary/2003/0301iraq.html Foreign Policy In Focus | Global Affairs Commentary Addressing Iraqi Repression and the Need for a Change of Regime By Stephen Zunes January 30, 2003 Also: Iraq War To Exact Greatest Toll on Americans, Says Nuclear Expert The war we stand on the brink of will be disastrous for the people of Iraq, but even more so for the American people, who will face increased threats of terrorism and the erosion of civil liberties as power is concentrated in a dictatorial president, warns Nuclear Age Peace Foundation President David Kreiger. Transnational Foundation. February 14 2003 - See: http://www.transnational.org/forum/meet/2003/Krieger_BrinkWar.html David Krieger, Brink of War, USA http://www.oneworld.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi?root=1680&url=http%3A%2F%2Fw ww%2Eoneworld%2Enet%2Fips4%2F2003%2F02%2F13%2D1%2Eshtml Lawyers, Doctors Warn U.N. Over U.S. Attack on Iraq Thalif Deen UNITED NATIONS, Feb 12 (IPS) - Groups representing more than 300 international lawyers, jurists and physicians warned Wednesday that a military attack on Iraq would not only be a blatant violation of international law but could kill over 260,000 people. Also: Catastrophic War for Iraqi Children Iraq's 12 million children are likely to bear the brunt of an attack on Iraq. The Independent (U.K.) reports that a team of international investigators have conducted the first pre-conflict field research with children and concluded that they are "at grave risk of
