Re: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Hello Mark, Tomas and all >Tomas, > >Where could I buy one at this price? > >I centrifuge all materials before washing on a >lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give a >level of automation. > >One problem you are having is residual glycerol >contamination in the wash water causing it to >cloud very quickly. Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for long enough before the wash, or not washing enough. >I find separating the two >phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they are >both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. >Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash >water allows for a long term clear final product. >Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume level >crack the soaps back to FFA. > >I have two trains of thought on this - > >1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH neutralised >on a automated closed loop system. It needs to be >washed only once and the amount of H3PO4 used is >in relative terms quite small. The wash water >clears and hence can be recycled time and time >again. But remember the soap will return back to >FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the final >bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% >v/v. How did you calculate that? If it's that small an amount of FFA, then that little soap wouldn't make that much difference in washing, seems to me. >2) Wash the biodiesel with tap water say 2 or 3 >times until the final stage water is clear. Spent >water has to be put down the drain, which is a >waste. No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You should reuse it - use the 2nd wash water for the next batch first wash, the 3rd wash water for the next batch 2nd wash and so on. So you're using each wash three times, only the 3rd wash is fresh. The first wash can't be reused, but it doesn't have to go down the drain either. A simple grey-water system will handle it well. We currently feed it to water hyacinths and duckweed, and compost the plants. Next step will be to reclaim cleansed water from the water hycinths and duckweed. >In either case, the final glycerol can be pH >neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop control, >the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via >centrifuge, the water and ME separated via >centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, >neutral Glycerol and a compact solid fertilizer >base. If you believe in "fertilizers". Even if you do, mopst phosphates are applied to phosphate-rich soil, and most of what's applied quickly becomes unavailable to plants, like the rest. Phosphates are made available by biological action via the soil micro-life. Keep the micro-life happy and you don't need phosphates, nor any other "fertilizers". Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral Glycerol"? You've accounted for the catalyst in the by-product cocktail, but not for the soap/FFA, which is probably most of it, and not for the excess methanol. I don't understand the perceived need for centrifuges etc etc etc. What for? It increases the production rate? I don't think so - maybe it shortens the production *time*. Well, so what? Settling, washing, bubble-drying will take maybe 4-5 days from starting processing to finished, clear fuel. So if you have space to store 4-5 days' production, that's all you need. If you've got your processing right, that is - if you find a need for all this just for a "cleaner wash" it might help to pay some attention to optimizing your process. Whatever, what I've seen of centrifuges so far doesn't exactly impress, and nor does the price. Best Keith >Mark > >= >Mark Schofield >M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE >t 07944 401662 >e [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Hello Peter >Keith, >I use to represent ALFA LAVAL as a local agent here in Tanzania. They >provide centrifugal separation units for a wide range of raw materials, >I was dealing in the Powergen side and units are used for cleaning lube >and fuel oil in power generation. Then can be set-up to remove several >phases which would prove very efficient on a large scale fuel >clean-up/washing situation. > >Have a look at www/alfalaval.com >They also deal in used equipment (factory reconditioned) Thankyou, but I have no interest in centrifuges - as my message below says: >I don't understand the perceived need for centrifuges etc etc etc. >What for? It increases the production rate? I don't think so - maybe >it shortens the production *time*. Well, so what? Settling, washing, >bubble-drying will take maybe 4-5 days from starting processing to >finished, clear fuel. So if you have space to store 4-5 days' >production, that's all you need. If you've got your processing right, >that is - if you find a need for all this just for a "cleaner wash" >it might help to pay some attention to optimizing your process. >Whatever, what I've seen of centrifuges so far doesn't exactly >impress, and nor does the price. Not interested in large-scale operations either. But others here are. Thanks anyway. Keith Addison Journey to Forever >Peter > >-Original Message- >From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:57 AM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME > >Hello Mark, Tomas and all > > >Tomas, > > > >Where could I buy one at this price? > > > >I centrifuge all materials before washing on a > >lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give a > >level of automation. > > > >One problem you are having is residual glycerol > >contamination in the wash water causing it to > >cloud very quickly. > >Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for long enough before the >wash, or not washing enough. > > >I find separating the two > >phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they are > >both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. > >Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash > >water allows for a long term clear final product. > >Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume level > >crack the soaps back to FFA. > > > >I have two trains of thought on this - > > > >1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH neutralised > >on a automated closed loop system. It needs to be > >washed only once and the amount of H3PO4 used is > >in relative terms quite small. The wash water > >clears and hence can be recycled time and time > >again. But remember the soap will return back to > >FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the final > >bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% > >v/v. > >How did you calculate that? If it's that small an amount of FFA, then >that little soap wouldn't make that much difference in washing, seems >to me. > > >2) Wash the biodiesel with tap water say 2 or 3 > >times until the final stage water is clear. Spent > >water has to be put down the drain, which is a > >waste. > >No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You should reuse it - use the 2nd >wash water for the next batch first wash, the 3rd wash water for the >next batch 2nd wash and so on. So you're using each wash three times, >only the 3rd wash is fresh. The first wash can't be reused, but it >doesn't have to go down the drain either. A simple grey-water system >will handle it well. We currently feed it to water hyacinths and >duckweed, and compost the plants. Next step will be to reclaim >cleansed water from the water hycinths and duckweed. > > >In either case, the final glycerol can be pH > >neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop control, > >the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via > >centrifuge, the water and ME separated via > >centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, > >neutral Glycerol and a compact solid fertilizer > >base. > >If you believe in "fertilizers". Even if you do, mopst phosphates are >applied to phosphate-rich soil, and most of what's applied quickly >becomes unavailable to plants, like the rest. Phosphates are made >available by biological action via the soil micro-life. Keep the >micro-life happy and you don't need phosphates, nor any other >"fertilizers". > >Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral Glycerol"? You've accounted for >the catalyst in the by-product coc
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Keith I feel centrifuges are the future of mass production. Our plant has a production capability of 700,000L per week so I cant avoid using them. ark Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
>Keith > >I feel centrifuges are the future of mass >production. Our plant has a production capability >of 700,000L per week so I cant avoid using them. > >ark No doubt, but the focus of this group, and our focus at Journey to Forever, is not on mass production and large production-capacity plants but on small-scale, decentralized, localized production, and in this setting I see no need for nor advantage in centrifuges. As previously explained. Meanwhile I asked you a couple of questions in the message below, but got no response from you. Keith >Hello Mark, Tomas and all > >>Tomas, >> >>Where could I buy one at this price? >> >>I centrifuge all materials before washing on a >>lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give a >>level of automation. >> >>One problem you are having is residual glycerol >>contamination in the wash water causing it to >>cloud very quickly. > >Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for long enough before the >wash, or not washing enough. > >>I find separating the two >>phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they are >>both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. >>Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash >>water allows for a long term clear final product. >>Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume level >>crack the soaps back to FFA. >> >>I have two trains of thought on this - >> >>1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH neutralised >>on a automated closed loop system. It needs to be >>washed only once and the amount of H3PO4 used is >>in relative terms quite small. The wash water >>clears and hence can be recycled time and time >>again. But remember the soap will return back to >>FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the final >>bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% >>v/v. > >How did you calculate that? If it's that small an amount of FFA, >then that little soap wouldn't make that much difference in washing, >seems to me. > >>2) Wash the biodiesel with tap water say 2 or 3 >>times until the final stage water is clear. Spent >>water has to be put down the drain, which is a >>waste. > >No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You should reuse it - use the 2nd >wash water for the next batch first wash, the 3rd wash water for the >next batch 2nd wash and so on. So you're using each wash three >times, only the 3rd wash is fresh. The first wash can't be reused, >but it doesn't have to go down the drain either. A simple grey-water >system will handle it well. We currently feed it to water hyacinths >and duckweed, and compost the plants. Next step will be to reclaim >cleansed water from the water hyacinths and duckweed. > >>In either case, the final glycerol can be pH >>neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop control, >>the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via >>centrifuge, the water and ME separated via >>centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, >>neutral Glycerol and a compact solid fertilizer >>base. > >If you believe in "fertilizers". Even if you do, most phosphates are >applied to phosphate-rich soil, and most of what's applied quickly >becomes unavailable to plants, like the rest. Phosphates are made >available by biological action via the soil micro-life. Keep the >micro-life happy and you don't need phosphates, nor any other >"fertilizers". > >Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral Glycerol"? You've accounted for >the catalyst in the by-product cocktail, but not for the soap/FFA, >which is probably most of it, and not for the excess methanol. > >I don't understand the perceived need for centrifuges etc etc etc. >What for? It increases the production rate? I don't think so - maybe >it shortens the production *time*. Well, so what? Settling, washing, >bubble-drying will take maybe 4-5 days from starting processing to >finished, clear fuel. So if you have space to store 4-5 days' >production, that's all you need. If you've got your processing >right, that is - if you find a need for all this just for a "cleaner >wash" it might help to pay some attention to optimizing your >process. Whatever, what I've seen of centrifuges so far doesn't >exactly impress, and nor does the price. > >Best > >Keith > > >>Mark >> >>= >>Mark Schofield >>M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE >>t 07944 401662 >>e [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> ReplayTV: CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! Instant Replay & Pause live TV. Special Sale: 50% off! http://us.click.yahoo.com/UUMW7B/.5qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Yes Mark. But have you conducted a cost benefit analysis that includes all externalities, or simply "profit/loss?" As a general rule, unless of course you're sitting in the middle of a plethora of palm plantations all within spitting distance of each other, macro production incurs greater consumption of inumerable resources than does micro- and bio-regional production, all-the-while draining capital, resources and jobs from smaller communities. Not exactly a model for "sharing the wealth." Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: "mark schofield" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2003 12:15 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME > Keith > > I feel centrifuges are the future of mass > production. Our plant has a production capability > of 700,000L per week so I cant avoid using them. > > ark > > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! > Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Special Sale: 50% off ReplayTV Easily record your favorite shows! CNet Ranked #1 over Tivo! http://us.click.yahoo.com/WUMW7B/85qGAA/ySSFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Keith, I use to represent ALFA LAVAL as a local agent here in Tanzania. They provide centrifugal separation units for a wide range of raw materials, I was dealing in the Powergen side and units are used for cleaning lube and fuel oil in power generation. Then can be set-up to remove several phases which would prove very efficient on a large scale fuel clean-up/washing situation. Have a look at www/alfalaval.com They also deal in used equipment (factory reconditioned) Peter -Original Message- From: Keith Addison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 9:57 AM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Cc: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME Hello Mark, Tomas and all >Tomas, > >Where could I buy one at this price? > >I centrifuge all materials before washing on a >lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give a >level of automation. > >One problem you are having is residual glycerol >contamination in the wash water causing it to >cloud very quickly. Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for long enough before the wash, or not washing enough. >I find separating the two >phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they are >both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. >Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash >water allows for a long term clear final product. >Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume level >crack the soaps back to FFA. > >I have two trains of thought on this - > >1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH neutralised >on a automated closed loop system. It needs to be >washed only once and the amount of H3PO4 used is >in relative terms quite small. The wash water >clears and hence can be recycled time and time >again. But remember the soap will return back to >FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the final >bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% >v/v. How did you calculate that? If it's that small an amount of FFA, then that little soap wouldn't make that much difference in washing, seems to me. >2) Wash the biodiesel with tap water say 2 or 3 >times until the final stage water is clear. Spent >water has to be put down the drain, which is a >waste. No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You should reuse it - use the 2nd wash water for the next batch first wash, the 3rd wash water for the next batch 2nd wash and so on. So you're using each wash three times, only the 3rd wash is fresh. The first wash can't be reused, but it doesn't have to go down the drain either. A simple grey-water system will handle it well. We currently feed it to water hyacinths and duckweed, and compost the plants. Next step will be to reclaim cleansed water from the water hycinths and duckweed. >In either case, the final glycerol can be pH >neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop control, >the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via >centrifuge, the water and ME separated via >centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, >neutral Glycerol and a compact solid fertilizer >base. If you believe in "fertilizers". Even if you do, mopst phosphates are applied to phosphate-rich soil, and most of what's applied quickly becomes unavailable to plants, like the rest. Phosphates are made available by biological action via the soil micro-life. Keep the micro-life happy and you don't need phosphates, nor any other "fertilizers". Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral Glycerol"? You've accounted for the catalyst in the by-product cocktail, but not for the soap/FFA, which is probably most of it, and not for the excess methanol. I don't understand the perceived need for centrifuges etc etc etc. What for? It increases the production rate? I don't think so - maybe it shortens the production *time*. Well, so what? Settling, washing, bubble-drying will take maybe 4-5 days from starting processing to finished, clear fuel. So if you have space to store 4-5 days' production, that's all you need. If you've got your processing right, that is - if you find a need for all this just for a "cleaner wash" it might help to pay some attention to optimizing your process. Whatever, what I've seen of centrifuges so far doesn't exactly impress, and nor does the price. Best Keith >Mark > >= >Mark Schofield >M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE >t 07944 401662 >e [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT <http://rd.yahoo.com/M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egroupweb/S=1705 083269:HM/A=1706996/R=0/SIG=11p5b9ris/*http:/www.ediets.com/start.cfm?co de=30509&media=atkins> click here <http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=194081.3897168.5135684.1261774/D=egrou pmail/S=:HM/A=1706996/rand=683621636> Bi
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Keith OK, soap cracks back to FFA with H3PO4 hence keeping the water clear. FFA volume is quite small. Just on my way out hence short reply. Mark --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >Keith > > > >I feel centrifuges are the future of mass > >production. Our plant has a production > capability > >of 700,000L per week so I cant avoid using > them. > > > >ark > > No doubt, but the focus of this group, and our > focus at Journey to > Forever, is not on mass production and large > production-capacity > plants but on small-scale, decentralized, > localized production, and > in this setting I see no need for nor advantage > in centrifuges. As > previously explained. > > Meanwhile I asked you a couple of questions in > the message below, but > got no response from you. > > Keith > > > >Hello Mark, Tomas and all > > > >>Tomas, > >> > >>Where could I buy one at this price? > >> > >>I centrifuge all materials before washing on > a > >>lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give > a > >>level of automation. > >> > >>One problem you are having is residual > glycerol > >>contamination in the wash water causing it to > >>cloud very quickly. > > > >Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for > long enough before the > >wash, or not washing enough. > > > >>I find separating the two > >>phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they > are > >>both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. > >>Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash > >>water allows for a long term clear final > product. > >>Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume > level > >>crack the soaps back to FFA. > >> > >>I have two trains of thought on this - > >> > >>1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH > neutralised > >>on a automated closed loop system. It needs > to be > >>washed only once and the amount of H3PO4 used > is > >>in relative terms quite small. The wash water > >>clears and hence can be recycled time and > time > >>again. But remember the soap will return back > to > >>FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the > final > >>bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% > >>v/v. > > > >How did you calculate that? If it's that small > an amount of FFA, > >then that little soap wouldn't make that much > difference in washing, > >seems to me. > > > >>2) Wash the biodiesel with tap water say 2 or > 3 > >>times until the final stage water is clear. > Spent > >>water has to be put down the drain, which is > a > >>waste. > > > >No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You should > reuse it - use the 2nd > >wash water for the next batch first wash, the > 3rd wash water for the > >next batch 2nd wash and so on. So you're using > each wash three > >times, only the 3rd wash is fresh. The first > wash can't be reused, > >but it doesn't have to go down the drain > either. A simple grey-water > >system will handle it well. We currently feed > it to water hyacinths > >and duckweed, and compost the plants. Next > step will be to reclaim > >cleansed water from the water hyacinths and > duckweed. > > > >>In either case, the final glycerol can be pH > >>neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop > control, > >>the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via > >>centrifuge, the water and ME separated via > >>centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, > >>neutral Glycerol and a compact solid > fertilizer > >>base. > > > >If you believe in "fertilizers". Even if you > do, most phosphates are > >applied to phosphate-rich soil, and most of > what's applied quickly > >becomes unavailable to plants, like the rest. > Phosphates are made > >available by biological action via the soil > micro-life. Keep the > >micro-life happy and you don't need > phosphates, nor any other > >"fertilizers". > > > >Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral > Glycerol"? You've accounted for > >the catalyst in the by-product cocktail, but > not for the soap/FFA, > >which is probably most of it, and not for the > excess methanol. > > > >I don't understand the perceived need for > centrifuges etc etc etc. > >What for? It increases the production rate? I > don't think so - maybe > >it shortens the production *time*. Well, so > what? Settling, washing, > >bubble-drying will take maybe 4-5 days from > starting processing to > >finished, clear fuel. So if you have space to > store 4-5 days' > >production, that's all you need. If you've got > your processing > >right, that is - if you find a need for all > this just for a "cleaner > >wash" it might help to pay some attention to > optimizing your > >process. Whatever, what I've seen of > centrifuges so far doesn't > >exactly impress, and nor does the price. > > > >Best > > > >Keith > > > > > >>Mark > >> > >>= > >>Mark Schofield > >>M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE > >>t 07944 401662 > >>e [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >>Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messeng
Re: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Todd, Yes I have. We buy in contract amount of fat and oil delivered to site via tanker. Remember that the UK is a relatively small place peaking at 1000 miles long by 200 wide. Regards Mark Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
>Keith > >OK, soap cracks back to FFA with H3PO4 hence >keeping the water clear. FFA volume is quite >small. Just on my way out hence short reply. > >Mark I hope you'll send a more detailed one when you come back. We all know acid cracks soap back to FFA, you already said that, twice, now three times: > > >>Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume level > > >>crack the soaps back to FFA. And that wasn't the question. This was: > > >>again. But remember the soap will return back > > to > > >>FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the > > final > > >>bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% > > >>v/v. > > > > > >How did you calculate that? If it's that small > > an amount of FFA, > > >then that little soap wouldn't make that much > > difference in washing, > > >seems to me. How did you calculate the 0.001% v/v? There are a lot of variables at play there, yet you give such a precise figure, what's it based on? This isn't very precise: "... the amount of H3PO4 used is in relative terms quite small" and "... a very small volume level". There were other questions. You also said 2-3 washes with tapwater wastes the water, which isn't so, and you don't appear to have considered using 2-3 washes with acid added to the first wash, which many people do. You also talked of "neutral Glycerol": > > >>In either case, the final glycerol can be pH > > >>neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop > > control, > > >>the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via > > >>centrifuge, the water and ME separated via > > >>centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, > > >>neutral Glycerol and a compact solid > > fertilizer > > >>base. > > > > > >Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral Glycerol"? You've accounted for > > >the catalyst in the by-product cocktail, but not for the soap/FFA, > > >which is probably most of it, and not for the excess methanol. I'm not just asking for the sake of asking - surely you're aware that the pros and cons of acid-washing are a long-running controversy, it often comes up on the list, with some progress being made at last towards a resolution. You've posted this very low figure for the FFA quantities, which would certainly be relevant to the discussion, only you don't say what it's based on, it doesn't quite make sense, and it tends to ignore all the variables, not only the obvious ones but also the less obvious ones such as the different FA profiles of different oils, and how the different acids might behave in a wash, as pointed out recently by Prof. Michael Allen and cross-posted here. So please explain. The whole message doesn't quite make sense, and seems rather odd for someone with a 700,000L per week biodiesel plant. Do you have such a plant? I mean up and running? A week or so ago you were talking of laboratory-level experiments, a couple of months back you were making your first test batches. You say there's a 700,000L per week biodiesel plant operating in the UK, that's nearly 10 million US gallons a year, which would surely make rather a large and loud dent in the market there even if it's operating at well below the production capability you claim, but we've heard nothing of it except from you. Keith Addison Journey to Forever > --- Keith Addison <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >wrote: > >Keith > > > > > >I feel centrifuges are the future of mass > > >production. Our plant has a production > > capability > > >of 700,000L per week so I cant avoid using > > them. > > > > > >ark > > > > No doubt, but the focus of this group, and our > > focus at Journey to > > Forever, is not on mass production and large > > production-capacity > > plants but on small-scale, decentralized, > > localized production, and > > in this setting I see no need for nor advantage > > in centrifuges. As > > previously explained. > > > > Meanwhile I asked you a couple of questions in > > the message below, but > > got no response from you. > > > > Keith > > > > > > >Hello Mark, Tomas and all > > > > > >>Tomas, > > >> > > >>Where could I buy one at this price? > > >> > > >>I centrifuge all materials before washing on > > a > > >>lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give > > a > > >>level of automation. > > >> > > >>One problem you are having is residual > > glycerol > > >>contamination in the wash water causing it to > > >>cloud very quickly. > > > > > >Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for > > long enough before the > > >wash, or not washing enough. > > > > > >>I find separating the two > > >>phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they > > are > > >>both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. > > >>Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash > > >>water allows for a long term clear final > > product. > > >>Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume > > level > > >>crack the soaps back to FFA. > > >> > > >>I have two trains of thought on this - > > >> > > >>1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH > > neutralised > > >>on a automated closed loop system. It needs > > to be > > >>w
RE: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Dear Keith OK, I'll expand a little. We are building a large plant here in the UK with a production capacity of 700,000L per week. I have spent the last 3-5 months everyday except Sunday (~1560 hrs total) experimenting and perfecting as far as possible the single base stage and the acid-base two stage. I have produced very repeatable results. I can heat the oil (60'C+) and allow to cool. It cools clear. I can then freeze the oil allow to thaw and centrifuge off the solid material (very small quantity of longer esters) for a mildly winterised fuel if I want to. The US Military used exactly the same technique for their gas turbine experiments. The UK standard for Bio-diesel is EN 14214. I have a copy here is anybody wants one. Keith, I can only explain what I have achieved though not all of this will be relevant to you in terms of an automated process. When I manufacture the methyl esters, all of the glycerol is removed from the bio-diesel via centrifuge either now in a lab or in 2-3 months time in an Alfa Laval unit (7500L per hr). At this stage the bio-diesel is clear and crisp. I need only to add a very small quantity of water, of order 10-20% and wash just once. The biodiesel pH at this stage is 11. I took serious note of you stating not to exceed 9-9.5 some weeks ago. However, I specifically repeated the experiments at pH 9.5 and the results were not as good as 11. I am operating with a molar ratio of 4.89 : 1 methanol to oil. OK, at this stage I have clear bio-diesel free from glycerol and FFA. The centrifuge operates at 3500rpm. The water and methanol are flash evaporated in a thin film extraction unit. Once the water is added the two liquids are either bubble mixed in the lab or later will be pump mixed on site in SS316 10,000L tanks. After a few minutes, the phosphoric acid is introduced until the pH of the whole batch reaches 7.00 +/- 0.1. The solid sodium phosphate precipitates out very fast and is removed in the lab via small centrifuge and on site via self-cleaning industrial Alfa Laval units. The finished product is clean, clear and crisp. I have set aside the glycerol in a separate SS316 4500L tank, where all the excess water and methanol are flash evaporated and the remaining liquid neutralised. The sodium phosphate is removed as before. The centrifuge also separates the FFA into a third holding tank for continuous esterification before trans-esterification. So, when I said the FFA content at the wash stage is very low it is of order 0.01% or less at a guess since all of the residual FFA has been removed in the centrifuge. The wash water stays relatively clean even over 12 hr wash cycles. I donât have any problems associated with needing more than 1 wash etc. In terms of H3PO4 consumption, I use enough 85% to bring to pH to 7.00 +/- 0.1. Realistically Iâd use something like 5cc per L off the top of my head. With regard to the soap question you have proposed, I simply neutralise and extract the glycerol, sodium phosphate and FFA in a tuned 3-way centrifuge for post processing. I have not experimented with differing acids for the neutralisation process i.e. HCl for NaCl extraction etc. With regard to the plant, I didnât say anything for the last few months. The money has only just been put into place. This plant at 700,000L per week isnât the largest here, though it is 2nd or will be shortly. Ours is based into a 10,000 sq.ft building, which is being re-furbished currently. I have worked on emissions and alternative fuels since 1999. I had experimented with bio-diesel then but didnât have time to finish it, hence the fast up-take this time around. Putting the process under automatic control is far easier than manufacturing small batches. If I have made mistakes or points are not clear, please ask. I missed the conversation from Prof Allen ö has this been stored in the archive? Regards Mark = Mark Schofield M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE t 07944 401662 e [EMAIL PROTECTED] Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: [biofuel] USING SEPARATOR FOR AFTER WASH TREATMENT OF ME
Hello Mark, Tomas and all >Tomas, > >Where could I buy one at this price? > >I centrifuge all materials before washing on a >lab level, so using the Alfie unit would give a >level of automation. > >One problem you are having is residual glycerol >contamination in the wash water causing it to >cloud very quickly. Yes, as already pointed out. Not settling for long enough before the wash, or not washing enough. >I find separating the two >phases (ME and Glycerol) first such that they are >both clear allows for a far cleaner wash. >Further, I also find neutralising the pH wash >water allows for a long term clear final product. >Phosphoric acid will on a very small volume level >crack the soaps back to FFA. > >I have two trains of thought on this - > >1) I use ~10% by volume wash water pH neutralised >on a automated closed loop system. It needs to be >washed only once and the amount of H3PO4 used is >in relative terms quite small. The wash water >clears and hence can be recycled time and time >again. But remember the soap will return back to >FFA. The pysical volume with respect to the final >bio-diesel is very small indeed, maybe 0.001% >v/v. How did you calculate that? If it's that small an amount of FFA, then that little soap wouldn't make that much difference in washing, seems to me. >2) Wash the biodiesel with tap water say 2 or 3 >times until the final stage water is clear. Spent >water has to be put down the drain, which is a >waste. No it doesn't, and no it isn't. You should reuse it - use the 2nd wash water for the next batch first wash, the 3rd wash water for the next batch 2nd wash and so on. So you're using each wash three times, only the 3rd wash is fresh. The first wash can't be reused, but it doesn't have to go down the drain either. A simple grey-water system will handle it well. We currently feed it to water hyacinths and duckweed, and compost the plants. Next step will be to reclaim cleansed water from the water hycinths and duckweed. >In either case, the final glycerol can be pH >neutralised with H3PO4 under closed loop control, >the Sodium Phosphate precipitate removed via >centrifuge, the water and ME separated via >centrifuge. The final product is clear ME, >neutral Glycerol and a compact solid fertilizer >base. If you believe in "fertilizers". Even if you do, mopst phosphates are applied to phosphate-rich soil, and most of what's applied quickly becomes unavailable to plants, like the rest. Phosphates are made available by biological action via the soil micro-life. Keep the micro-life happy and you don't need phosphates, nor any other "fertilizers". Anyway, what do you mean by "neutral Glycerol"? You've accounted for the catalyst in the by-product cocktail, but not for the soap/FFA, which is probably most of it, and not for the excess methanol. I don't understand the perceived need for centrifuges etc etc etc. What for? It increases the production rate? I don't think so - maybe it shortens the production *time*. Well, so what? Settling, washing, bubble-drying will take maybe 4-5 days from starting processing to finished, clear fuel. So if you have space to store 4-5 days' production, that's all you need. If you've got your processing right, that is - if you find a need for all this just for a "cleaner wash" it might help to pay some attention to optimizing your process. Whatever, what I've seen of centrifuges so far doesn't exactly impress, and nor does the price. Best Keith >Mark > >= >Mark Schofield >M.Sc B.Eng DHE AMIMechE >t 07944 401662 >e [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Autogas Conversions and LPG Pumps Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Remanufactured Ink Cartridges & Refill Kits at MyInks.com for: HP $8-20. Epson $3-9, Canon $5-15, Lexmark $4-17. Free s/h over $50 (US & Canada). http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=6351 http://us.click.yahoo.com/0zJuRD/6CvGAA/qnsNAA/9bTolB/TM -~-> Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
