Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[Ken Dunn]

I know its not much better but, I believe our insert is rated at 40% 
efficiency.  We plan to move to a more efficient catalytic wood burning 
insert as soon as we can swing the finances.  Vermont Castings claims 
78% efficiency of one of their models.

Kirk wrote:

Your insert with a fan is probably 300% more efficient than a fireplace. 
That means instead of 98% of the heating value of the fuel being lost up 
the chimney only 90% is lost.

THe only fireplace I know of that is worth owning is the Finnish masonry 
firplace and I think it weighs 2 to 3 tons. Definitely not a trivial 
second storey affair.

I myself favor biodiesel cogeneration so electricity and heat are 
obtained from the same fuel. Can reduce electricity cost to around 5 
cents a kilowatt hour. Then there is the reliability of not being 
vulnerable to problems on the grid. Lousiana is a good case in point re 
not having your own.


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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[Kirk McLoren]

>>> >From a related yet different perspective, do I introduce any trouble >>by burning>>my wood burning fireplace insert?://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Your insert with a fan is probably 300% more efficient than a fireplace. That means instead of 98% of the heating value of the fuel being lost up the chimney only 90% is lost.
THe only fireplace I know of that is worth owning is the Finnish masonry firplace and I think it weighs 2 to 3 tons. Definitely not a trivial second storey affair.
I myself favor biodiesel cogeneration so electricity and heat are obtained from the same fuel. Can reduce electricity cost to around 5 cents a kilowatt hour. Then there is the reliability of not being vulnerable to problems on the grid. Lousiana is a good case in point re not having your own.
Kirk
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[S. Chapin]

robert luis rabello wrote:

>Ken Dunn wrote:
>
>
>  
>
>>Is there a specific type of material or will any old grommet do?
>>
>>
>
>   Neoprene rubber is the recommended material.
>
>(Plumbing complexity)
>
>  
>
>>This is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while.  I 
>>was way over
>>complicating the design in my head.  As long as I build or modify the 
>>storage
>>tank myself and change my thermostat, it's not nearly as complicated as I
>>initially thought.
>>
>>
>
>   It doesn't need to be terribly complex.  Ours was installed by a 
>plumber whom I would never accuse of being the brightest bulb on the 
>Christmas tree!
>
>($$$)
>
>  
>
>>How so?  Of course, I'm not dealing with initial expenses here anyway.
>>
>>
>
>   The initial cost of a boiler tends to exceed that of a furnace, and 
>in our case, we installed a heat recovery ventilator.  (Our boiler is 
>rated at 30 000 Btu and is tiny!)  By the time we paid for everything, 
>we invested about $1 500 more in our radiant floor heating than would 
>have been the case with a contractor installed forced air system. 
>Labor to install radiant heat is likely the most significant expense. 
>  My wife and I installed all the tubing ourselves, with a lot of help 
>from some friends.  (Ok, maybe that was the other way around!)  It's a 
>LOT of work, but the work is well worth your effort if you can do it 
>yourself.
>
>
>  
>
>> >From a related yet different perspective, do I introduce any trouble 
>>by burning
>>my wood burning fireplace insert?
>>
>>
>
>   No.
>  
>
>>Do you reverse ceiling fans during the winter?
>>
>>
>
>   No, that isn't necessary.  It seems a little counterintuitive, but 
>you've got to appreciate that radiant heat very gently transfers into 
>the air above the floor, where most of the energy is going.  Heat 
>rises naturally and gradually over time, forming thermal gradients 
>that make the air near the ceiling cooler.  I walk around my house 
>with bare feet all winter long.  If I feel uncomfortable, I simply put 
>my feet on the floor.
>
>
>  
>
>>Thanks much for your comments,
>>
>>
>
>   You're welcome!
>
>  
>
>>***Editor's Note***  I am my own editor and often drink on the job.
>>
>>
>
>   I do too, but it's almost always tea!
>
>robert luis rabello
>"The Edge of Justice"
>Adventure for Your Mind
>http://www.newadventure.ca
>
>Ranger Supercharger Project Page
>http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/
>
>
>
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>
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>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html
>
>Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):
>http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
>
>
>  
>
For inexpensive system run a standard hot water tank, a couple grunfos 
pumps on an open ended system.  It doesnt need to be complicated or 
expensive, a solar preheat from the hot water can be helpful, although 
you will need a heat exchanger to run the antifreeze ("Helios" ? I think 
in Oakland makes a good one, or you could fashion one up).
Put in the tubing and insulate as you can. I have a design for low cost 
system (less then 2k$)  if you are interested for 2 story 1600sq.ft. 
house if you want general outline of bits and pieces.
S.Chapin

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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[robert luis rabello]

Ken Dunn wrote:


> Is there a specific type of material or will any old grommet do?

Neoprene rubber is the recommended material.

(Plumbing complexity)

> This is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while.  I 
> was way over
> complicating the design in my head.  As long as I build or modify the 
> storage
> tank myself and change my thermostat, it's not nearly as complicated as I
> initially thought.

It doesn't need to be terribly complex.  Ours was installed by a 
plumber whom I would never accuse of being the brightest bulb on the 
Christmas tree!

($$$)

> How so?  Of course, I'm not dealing with initial expenses here anyway.

The initial cost of a boiler tends to exceed that of a furnace, and 
in our case, we installed a heat recovery ventilator.  (Our boiler is 
rated at 30 000 Btu and is tiny!)  By the time we paid for everything, 
we invested about $1 500 more in our radiant floor heating than would 
have been the case with a contractor installed forced air system. 
Labor to install radiant heat is likely the most significant expense. 
  My wife and I installed all the tubing ourselves, with a lot of help 
from some friends.  (Ok, maybe that was the other way around!)  It's a 
LOT of work, but the work is well worth your effort if you can do it 
yourself.


>  >From a related yet different perspective, do I introduce any trouble 
> by burning
> my wood burning fireplace insert?

No.
>Do you reverse ceiling fans during the winter?

No, that isn't necessary.  It seems a little counterintuitive, but 
you've got to appreciate that radiant heat very gently transfers into 
the air above the floor, where most of the energy is going.  Heat 
rises naturally and gradually over time, forming thermal gradients 
that make the air near the ceiling cooler.  I walk around my house 
with bare feet all winter long.  If I feel uncomfortable, I simply put 
my feet on the floor.


> Thanks much for your comments,

You're welcome!

> ***Editor's Note***  I am my own editor and often drink on the job.

I do too, but it's almost always tea!

robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[Ken Dunn]

On 9/4/05, *Kirk McLoren* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:

As a rule of thumb a dollar of insulation buys more BTUs than a
dollar of collector.
This is probably true until you pass R50 for the roof/ceiling and
R40 for the walls.


I couldn't agree more.  I'd like to bank on doing the proper insulation 
alone before winter but, I am not willing to take the chance that 
insulation alone will protect me enough from the "energy crisis" that 
we're about to witness.

Thanks much,
Take care,
Ken

***Editor's Note***  I am my own editor and often drink on the job.

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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[Ken Dunn]

On 9/4/05, *robert luis rabello* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> wrote:
 
If you do this, however, you'll want

to install grommets in the floor joists.  We didn't, so whenever the
boiler fires up, the plastic pipes tap against the joists.  It sounds
like a myriad of golf balls bouncing on the floor--not altogether
unpleasant, but certainly something unnecessary.


Is there a specific type of material or will any old grommet do?

Part of that greater efficiency,
however, may stem from the fact that I sealed every join between floor
and wall and caulked around every window when we built the house.


I'm working on that sort of stuff but, it's much slower in the retro-fit.

You can set your boiler to heat an insulated storage tank and
put in an extra coil for solar input.  If the thermostat on the
storage tank is set for a given temperature, your boiler will only
activate when the solar thermal energy has been used first.


This is something that I've been trying to figure out for a while.  I 
was way over
complicating the design in my head.  As long as I build or modify the 
storage
tank myself and change my thermostat, it's not nearly as complicated as I
initially thought.

In theory, you could tap heat from the tank for domestic hot water as
well, so a single system could serve home heating and water heating. 


That was definitely a design consideration that I skipped in my post.
I was planning on implementing that as addition 2 of phase 2.

Most good boilers are more efficient than water heater tanks,
engendering another savings (albeit a small one) down the road.

Disadvantages include:

1.  The potential for structural damage with a leak.  A properly
designed system SHOULDN'T leak, but then, I live in earthquake
country and we have to take that risk seriously.


This isn't  TOO much of a concern for us as the plumbing will be in the
basement.  Part of our basement is finished but, a good disaster would
be just the reason to do all the proper insulating which my better half
is none too enthusiastic about.

2.  Greater initial expense for radiant heat.


How so?  Of course, I'm not dealing with initial expenses here anyway.


4.  Wood fired boilers pollute more than wood fired forced air
systems because water is much more efficient at removing heat
energy from the fire box.  This can also result in
creosote build up.


 >From a related yet different perspective, do I introduce any trouble 
by burning
my wood burning fireplace insert?  In seems to do a very good job and has a
fan.  Do you reverse ceiling fans during the winter?  I'll be performing 
on-site
tests this winter in order to prove either my wife or myself correct.

Start with insulation and draft proofing.  Get good windows and use
window quilts wherever possible.  Once you've taken care of these
easily implemented, affordable solutions, the rest will cost less
money and involve less work.


As I mentioned before,  I'm working toward that end.  It certainly takes 
a while
when you're taking over a home.

Thanks much for your comments,
Take care,
Ken

***Editor's Note***  I am my own editor and often drink on the job.

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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[Kirk McLoren]

As a rule of thumb a dollar of insulation buys more BTUs than a dollar of collector.
This is probably true until you pass R50 for the roof/ceiling and R40 for the walls.
Moveable insulation is much cheaper than hitek windows but only you know if you will be diligent in its use.
 
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dejabook/
Has Harnessing the Sun and the Deja 3.1 viewer in the files section
I recommend it.
 
KirkKen Dunn <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hi all,I know that this has been discussed in the past but, a search of the archives turns up discussions from a few years ago (unless my searching was less than adequate). Seems to me that the timing is right to rehash the topic.I have been researching solar hot water and radiant heating periodically for a while now, knowing that I have a few zones in my house that are not sufficiently warm. I also know that I want to do whatever I can to conserve. Under the current circumstances here in the U.S., there is no better time than now. Yeah, I know, yesterday was the best time but, I was fishing.In our particular situation, we have two bedrooms that stay on the cooler side (actually they're downright cold). They are over the garage and on the north side of the house. The garage below is unfinished but the ceiling above
 the garage is insulated. However, the house is 50 years old. I have no idea how old that insulation is nor do I know the R-factor of it. I would like to finish/insulate the garage walls, pull down the garage ceiling, install radiant heating below my sons' bedrooms and reinsulate the garage ceiling. I know that proper insulation alone will make a big difference but, based on several variables I am certain that it won't fix the problem all together.I plan to implement a system that gathers the Sun's energy within a solar collector filled with an anti-freeze of sorts. The heat produced is transferred to water stored in an insulated storage tank via a heat exchange and then distributed to the "zones" via tubing. Sound like the standard setup? I am also considering building a window unit like I've seen in books by the Rodale Press. Additionally, I am still in the process of scrounging parts for my biodiesel processor. If I do this
 right, I could use the system to pre-heat my feed stock at a minimum. I plan to add more radiant solar heat to the rest of the house later but, because of the layout of the house, I will likely create two independent systems. This goes along nicely with my techy nature of building in redundancy anyway.Now, the questions that I pose to you are these:1. Is this, truly, a worthwile endeavor? I suppose I should mentionthat I live in Lancaster County, PA U.S.2. What is "The" source for information on this subject?3. Can I Appropriately build a solar collector that is as efficient? (When I say Appropriately I mean -With materials that are readily available and sensible)4. Should I plan to "add on" instead of having 2 separate systems?5. Is there any reason why I couldn't use automotive anti-freeze?6. Does any one have experience with Radiantec? I amconsidering using some of their components.7. What is the group's
 collective experience?8. Might I be better off building a window mounted solar collector initially?9. Are there other more efficient solutions?Thanks for the bandwidth,Take care,Ken***Editor's Note*** I am my own editor and often drink on the job.___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
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Re: [Biofuel] Solar Hot Water and Radiant Heat

[robert luis rabello]

Ken Dunn wrote:


> 7.  What is the group's collective experience?

I have radiant hot water heat in my house and I'm happy enough with 
the system to say that I don't wish to live WITHOUT radiant heat in 
the future.  It's probably colder where you live during the winter 
than it is here on the left coast, and the colder your climate, the 
faster the energy savings of radiant heat will pay back.

We installed the plastic tubing directly beneath the floor boards on 
our upper floor, which was a LOT of shoulder and back breaking work! 
Doing this enables our upper floor to heat quickly, giving our system 
a faster overall response time.  If you do this, however, you'll want 
to install grommets in the floor joists.  We didn't, so whenever the 
boiler fires up, the plastic pipes tap against the joists.  It sounds 
like a myriad of golf balls bouncing on the floor--not altogether 
unpleasant, but certainly something unnecessary.

Our lower floor has its tubing buried directly in the foundation 
concrete.  It heats up slower, but also cools down slower, so the 
lower floor of the house stays at a very even temperature throughout 
the heating season.  If you can do fibernet concrete in your 
installation, I would recommend it.

Radiant floor heat is very comfortable and energy efficient.  Our 
house, which is among the smallest in our neighborhood, uses about 
forty percent of the energy for heating of a comparably sized home 
with forced air, and considerably less than the towering behemoths 
that populate our subdivision.  Part of that greater efficiency, 
however, may stem from the fact that I sealed every join between floor 
and wall and caulked around every window when we built the house. 
(The carpenters thought I was crazy, but then, so does everyone else!) 
  We also have R 50 cellulose blown into our attic.  Our house stays 
nice and warm when it's cold outside, even in the nearly constant, 
prevailing wind that blows around up here during the winter.

Another nice feature of radiant heat, is that the propylene glycol / 
water mix (don't use ethylene glycol) can be heated by a variety of 
means.  You can set your boiler to heat an insulated storage tank and 
put in an extra coil for solar input.  If the thermostat on the 
storage tank is set for a given temperature, your boiler will only 
activate when the solar thermal energy has been used first.  In 
theory, you could tap heat from the tank for domestic hot water as 
well, so a single system could serve home heating and water heating. 
Most good boilers are more efficient than water heater tanks, 
engendering another savings (albeit a small one) down the road.

Disadvantages include:

1.  The potential for structural damage with a leak.  A properly 
designed system SHOULDN'T leak, but then, I live in earthquake
country and we have to take that risk seriously.

2.  Greater initial expense for radiant heat.

3.  Lag time between outdoor temperature drops and the response of 
the system.

4.  Wood fired boilers pollute more than wood fired forced air 
systems because water is much more efficient at removing heat
energy from the fire box.  This can also result in creosote 
build up.

If I were to build another house, I would use solar thermal storage 
in the foundation mass, coupled with a gasifying boiler and radiant 
heat.  That would be efficient to operate and inexpensive to run.

> 8.  Might I be better off building a window mounted solar collector 
> initially?

This might overheat the room if you're not careful.

> 9.  Are there other more efficient solutions?

Start with insulation and draft proofing.  Get good windows and use 
window quilts wherever possible.  Once you've taken care of these 
easily implemented, affordable solutions, the rest will cost less 
money and involve less work.


robert luis rabello
"The Edge of Justice"
Adventure for Your Mind
http://www.newadventure.ca

Ranger Supercharger Project Page
http://www.members.shaw.ca/rabello/



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