Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
Recovering exhaust and coolant heat tends to be complicated and expensive. It's best not to lose it in the first place, but there are practical limits. I was curious about using vegetable oil as the engine lubricant as well. Apparently it has been looked at and the lubricity is great but the oil breaks down quickly at high temperatures. There are good vegetable oil engine lubricants, especially in Europe. Try these: http://www.sterlinggrade.com http://www.renewablelube.com http://www.gemtek.com/ http://www.terresolve.com/ http://www.soypower.net/ http://www.lubegard.com/ http://www.renewableoil.com/ The idea occured to me that an engine could be designed that passes veggie oil through the engine as a lubricant and even a coolant on its way to the combustion chamber. That way it is always fresh oil and engine heat is put to good use heating the oil before injecting it. No more changing oil filters and draining dirty oil. Of course the final fuel filter would need changing more often though. This doesn't technically improve the efficiency of the engine but it recovers useful energy which would otherwise be wasted and improves the overall system efficiency in a sense. Running out of fuel would not be recommended with an engine of this type...hmmm I think I've seen that idea discussed before, and I don't think it got ruled out. It sounds like an elegant solution to me. Why not? Best wishes Keith Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, there are about 20,000 BTUs in a pound of gasoline, about 6 pounds to the U.S. gallon. A high school physics text and Marks' Handbook for Engineers (in the reference section of most larger libraries) will contain a lot of the information you might need. A text on internal combustion engines that is about as clearly and simply written as any such text can be is The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Ricardo and Hempson, 5th edition 1956or 1957, publisher Blackie of Edinburgh. There are earlier editions by Ricardo alone. Recovering exhaust and coolant heat tends to be complicated and expensive. It's best not to lose it in the first place, but there are practical limits. Diesels have a definite advantage over conventional spark ignition gasoline engines in maximum efficiency, because they can operate at higher compression and therefore expansion ratios. However, where Diesels really shine is part load efficiency; gasoline engines suffer badly at part load. Designing the transmission and suspension (including tires) for comfort, handling and performance involves major losses. Opportunities for reducing aerodynamic losses involve belly pans (maintenance problems?) and attention to the flow from the belly to the sides. It seems that the flow separation at the rear can be reduced, but the vehicle may look odd. If you are near a university which has a mechanical engineering department, browsing the archive of the Journal of the Society pf Automotive Engineers might interest you. There is a British equivalent; if memory serves thirty years ago it was the Journal of the Society of Chartered Mechanical Engineers. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Thanks to you and all the others who gave me more to think about. What triggered the question in my mind was a claim of a 500 MPG car that appeared in a newsgroup I follow, and after having seen the VW 1l/100km car, and what design implementation went into that, I had wondered if a 500 MPG car could possibly be any larger than a roller skate. And then, with a passenger of average weight, the numbers just don't look as good any more. LOL thanks again, all! doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
Doug, If you look at VW 1 L and make a one person car with top speed 55 mph in line with that concept, you could probably make 0.6 L experiment car , near 500 mpg. This if you still could claim that it is a car and not a covered moped. After all, WV 1 L with one person, did in road tests 100 km on .89 l. Hoagy (MH) gave you some links on consumption records. Practically, I think that VW 1 L, sets the limit for a vehicle that could still be called a car and that this experiment will result in new and valuable energy saving design practices for cars. Hakan At 09:02 AM 6/29/2005, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug, there are about 20,000 BTUs in a pound of gasoline, about 6 pounds to the U.S. gallon. A high school physics text and Marks' Handbook for Engineers (in the reference section of most larger libraries) will contain a lot of the information you might need. A text on internal combustion engines that is about as clearly and simply written as any such text can be is The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Ricardo and Hempson, 5th edition 1956or 1957, publisher Blackie of Edinburgh. There are earlier editions by Ricardo alone. Recovering exhaust and coolant heat tends to be complicated and expensive. It's best not to lose it in the first place, but there are practical limits. Diesels have a definite advantage over conventional spark ignition gasoline engines in maximum efficiency, because they can operate at higher compression and therefore expansion ratios. However, where Diesels really shine is part load efficiency; gasoline engines suffer badly at part load. Designing the transmission and suspension (including tires) for comfort, handling and performance involves major losses. Opportunities for reducing aerodynamic losses involve belly pans (maintenance problems?) and attention to the flow from the belly to the sides. It seems that the flow separation at the rear can be reduced, but the vehicle may look odd. If you are near a university which has a mechanical engineering department, browsing the archive of the Journal of the Society pf Automotive Engineers might interest you. There is a British equivalent; if memory serves thirty years ago it was the Journal of the Society of Chartered Mechanical Engineers. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada Thanks to you and all the others who gave me more to think about. What triggered the question in my mind was a claim of a 500 MPG car that appeared in a newsgroup I follow, and after having seen the VW 1l/100km car, and what design implementation went into that, I had wondered if a 500 MPG car could possibly be any larger than a roller skate. And then, with a passenger of average weight, the numbers just don't look as good any more. LOL thanks again, all! doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
For a perfect vehicle with no friction or air resistance losses at 100% efficiency it would probably run forever. LOL! a vehicle like that, who would need an engine? you could drive it flintsones-style! -chris ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
Des, I do not know of any formula, but what you describe is the VW Lupo 3L diesel and that one make around 85-90 mpg or 3 liter for 100 km. It is a vehicle for practical real use and VW did their best on the fuel economy. They also had an experimental 2 seater that made 100 km on 1 liter or around 260 mpg. Hakan At 09:10 AM 6/28/2005, you wrote: I've read of some really fantastic claims of MPG in vehicles that are either proposed or promised, and my curiosity has been piqued. The question I have in mind that is bothering me is this: Let's say for a minute that we're developing a vehicle that doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving, the heat from its combustion is reclycled, (radiators being a waste of energy, blowing heat ...AKA energy you paid for... into the atmosphere) and the energy used to go up a hill is reclaimed when going down the other side, (like the hybrids do...) and, just for the numbers we'll design it to weigh 1000 pounds. (not much luxury or padding on this vehicle.) How might one figure the maximum MPG on this vehicle, considering the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gas (or diesel) and if all the energy in this gallon were to be used in propelling the vehicle forward? Assuming that none of this fuel is used to run headlights, charge battery, run a heater, air conditioning, or radio? I understand that friction is a reality, but for this thought experiment, let's assume friction free bearings, and 100% transfer of power from tires to asphalt also. Wish I could recall all the physics I learned in high school, but back then we were still trying to make an ark float. If someone could point me in the right direction for the formula for the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and how far it could possibly push a specific mass in a perfect (theoretical) world, I would appreciate it. In the way that the Carnot cycle has its limits, I want to know what the limit for fuel efficiency on an infernal combustion engine is. Anyone? Thanks, doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
The information you need is available in general purpose mechanical engineering text books such as Marks Standard Handbook. For a perfect vehicle with no friction or air resistance losses at 100% efficiency it would probably run forever. The record for a street legal 2 seat car is held by the VW mentioned that got 0.89 litres of diesel fuelper 100 km on a highway test drive. I think it's weight was about 265kg - so well under your allowance. To get some realistic answers you need to allow for friction and air drag coefficients plus the energy content of the fuels being considered. Fuel economy will alsovary with vehicle speed and acceleration getting up to speed. You will need to set more conditions to get an answer to your question. Graeme ---Original Message--- From: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Date: 06/28/05 22:07:24 To: Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject: Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG Des, I do not know of any formula, but what you describe is the VW Lupo 3L diesel and that one make around 85-90 mpg or 3 liter for 100 km. It is a vehicle for practical real use and VW did their best on the fuel economy. They also had an experimental 2 seater that made 100 km on 1 liter or around 260 mpg. Hakan At 09:10 AM 6/28/2005, you wrote: I've read of some really fantastic claims of MPG in vehicles that are either proposed or promised, and my curiosity has been piqued.The question I have in mind that is bothering me is this: Let's say for a minute that we're developing a vehicle that doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving, the heat from its combustion is reclycled, (radiators being a waste of energy, blowing heat ...AKA energy you paid for... into the atmosphere) and the energy used to go up a hill is reclaimed when going down the other side, (like the hybrids do...) and, just for the numbers we'll design it to weigh 1000 pounds. (not much luxury or padding on this vehicle.) How might one figure the maximum MPG on this vehicle, considering the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gas (or diesel) and if all the energy in this gallon were to be used in propelling the vehicle forward?Assuming that none of this fuel is used to run headlights, charge battery, run a heater, air conditioning, or radio?I understand that friction is a reality, but for this thought experiment, let's assume friction free bearings, and 100% transfer of power from tires to asphalt also. Wish I could recall all the physics I learned in high school, but back then we were still trying to make an ark float. If someone could point me in the right direction for the formula for the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and how far it could possibly push a specific mass in a perfect (theoretical) world, I would appreciate it. In the way that the Carnot cycle has its limits, I want to know what the limit for fuel efficiency on an infernal combustion engine is. Anyone? Thanks, doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list gt;Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/ -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 6/27/05 No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.323 / Virus Database: 267.8.5/32 - Release Date: 6/27/05 ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
RE: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
are made fully automatically. Here, the best possible engine and gearbox shift points are selected for optimum fuel economy. Gear selection - forwards, reverse or neutral - is made using a turn switch on the right-hand side of the cockpit. -Original Message- From: Hakan Falk [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 6/28/2005 8:06 AM For:Biofuel@sustainablelists.org Subject:Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG Des, I do not know of any formula, but what you describe is the VW Lupo 3L diesel and that one make around 85-90 mpg or 3 liter for 100 km. It is a vehicle for practical real use and VW did their best on the fuel economy. They also had an experimental 2 seater that made 100 km on 1 liter or around 260 mpg. Hakan At 09:10 AM 6/28/2005, you wrote: I've read of some really fantastic claims of MPG in vehicles that are either proposed or promised, and my curiosity has been piqued. The question I have in mind that is bothering me is this: Let's say for a minute that we're developing a vehicle that doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving, the heat from its combustion is reclycled, (radiators being a waste of energy, blowing heat ...AKA energy you paid for... into the atmosphere) and the energy used to go up a hill is reclaimed when going down the other side, (like the hybrids do...) and, just for the numbers we'll design it to weigh 1000 pounds. (not much luxury or padding on this vehicle.) How might one figure the maximum MPG on this vehicle, considering the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gas (or diesel) and if all the energy in this gallon were to be used in propelling the vehicle forward? Assuming that none of this fuel is used to run headlights, charge battery, run a heater, air conditioning, or radio? I understand that friction is a reality, but for this thought experiment, let's assume friction free bearings, and 100% transfer of power from tires to asphalt also. Wish I could recall all the physics I learned in high school, but back then we were still trying to make an ark float. If someone could point me in the right direction for the formula for the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and how far it could possibly push a specific mass in a perfect (theoretical) world, I would appreciate it. In the way that the Carnot cycle has its limits, I want to know what the limit for fuel efficiency on an infernal combustion engine is. Anyone? Thanks, doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
If you entirely neglect friction, the only place the energy is being put to use is in acceleration and going up hills, so mpg wouldn't be a meaningful measure of what is going on. You might be able to measure something like speed per gallon. And the heat from the radiator can't be put to any good use without violating the second law of thermodynamics. All energy is eventually wasted as heat. It is a reality we have to live with. Anyways, cars without friction are a very bad thing. Lots of accidents would happen. I think someone else posted a reference from which you could find good estimates for friction, etc. des [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've read of some really fantastic claims of MPG in vehicles that are either proposed or promised, and my curiosity has been piqued. The question I have in mind that is bothering me is this:Let's say for a minute that we're developing a vehicle that doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving, the heat from its combustion is reclycled, (radiators being a waste of energy, blowing heat ...AKA energy you paid for... into the atmosphere) and the energy used to go up a hill is reclaimed when going down the other side, (like the hybrids do...) and, just for the numbers we'll design it to weigh 1000 pounds. (not much luxury or padding on this vehicle.) How might one figure the maximum MPG on this vehicle, considering the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gas (or diesel) and if all the energy in this gallon were to be used in propelling the vehicle forward? Assuming that none of this fuel is used to run headlights, charge battery, run a heater, air conditioning, or radio? I understand that friction is a reality, but for this thought experiment, let's assume friction free bearings, and 100% transfer of power from tires to asphalt also. Wish I could recall all the physics I learned in high school, but back then we were still trying to make an ark float.If someone could point me in the right direction for the formula for the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and how far it could possibly push a specific mass in a perfect (theoretical) world, I would appreciate it.In the way that the Carnot cycle has its limits, I want to know what the limit for fuel efficiency on an infernal combustion engine is.Anyone?Thanks,doug swanson___Biofuel mailing listBiofuel@sustainablelists.orghttp://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.orgBiofuel at Journey to Forever:http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlSearch the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages):http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/Send instant messages to your online friends http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
Doug, there are about 20,000 BTUs in a pound of gasoline, about 6 pounds to the U.S. gallon. A high school physics text and Marks' Handbook for Engineers (in the reference section of most larger libraries) will contain a lot of the information you might need. A text on internal combustion engines that is about as clearly and simply written as any such text can be is The High-Speed Internal Combustion Engine by Ricardo and Hempson, 5th edition 1956or 1957, publisher Blackie of Edinburgh. There are earlier editions by Ricardo alone. Recovering exhaust and coolant heat tends to be complicated and expensive. It's best not to lose it in the first place, but there are practical limits. Diesels have a definite advantage over conventional spark ignition gasoline engines in maximum efficiency, because they can operate at higher compression and therefore expansion ratios. However, where Diesels really shine is part load efficiency; gasoline engines suffer badly at part load. Designing the transmission and suspension (including tires) for comfort, handling and performance involves major losses. Opportunities for reducing aerodynamic losses involve belly pans (maintenance problems?) and attention to the flow from the belly to the sides. It seems that the flow separation at the rear can be reduced, but the vehicle may look odd. If you are near a university which has a mechanical engineering department, browsing the archive of the Journal of the Society pf Automotive Engineers might interest you. There is a British equivalent; if memory serves thirty years ago it was the Journal of the Society of Chartered Mechanical Engineers. Doug Woodard St. Catharines, Ontario, Canada On Tue, 28 Jun 2005, des wrote: I've read of some really fantastic claims of MPG in vehicles that are either proposed or promised, and my curiosity has been piqued. The question I have in mind that is bothering me is this: Let's say for a minute that we're developing a vehicle that doesn't use any fuel when it's not moving, the heat from its combustion is reclycled, (radiators being a waste of energy, blowing heat ...AKA energy you paid for... into the atmosphere) and the energy used to go up a hill is reclaimed when going down the other side, (like the hybrids do...) and, just for the numbers we'll design it to weigh 1000 pounds. (not much luxury or padding on this vehicle.) How might one figure the maximum MPG on this vehicle, considering the amount of energy stored in a gallon of gas (or diesel) and if all the energy in this gallon were to be used in propelling the vehicle forward? Assuming that none of this fuel is used to run headlights, charge battery, run a heater, air conditioning, or radio? I understand that friction is a reality, but for this thought experiment, let's assume friction free bearings, and 100% transfer of power from tires to asphalt also. Wish I could recall all the physics I learned in high school, but back then we were still trying to make an ark float. If someone could point me in the right direction for the formula for the amount of energy in a gallon of fuel and how far it could possibly push a specific mass in a perfect (theoretical) world, I would appreciate it. In the way that the Carnot cycle has its limits, I want to know what the limit for fuel efficiency on an infernal combustion engine is. Anyone? Thanks, doug swanson ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
Re: [Biofuel] maximum MPG
Recovering exhaust and coolant heat tends to be complicated and expensive. It's best not to lose it in the first place, but there are practical limits. I was curious about using vegetable oil as the engine lubricant as well. Apparently it has been looked at and the lubricity is great but the oil breaks down quickly at high temperatures. The idea occured to me that an engine could be designed that passes veggie oil through the engine as a lubricant and even a coolant on its way to the combustion chamber. That way it is always fresh oil and engine heat is put to good use heating the oil before injecting it. No more changing oil filters and draining dirty oil. Of course the final fuel filter would need changing more often though. This doesn't technically improve the efficiency of the engine but it recovers useful energy which would otherwise be wasted and improves the overall system efficiency in a sense. Running out of fuel would not be recommended with an engine of this type...hmmm Joe ___ Biofuel mailing list Biofuel@sustainablelists.org http://sustainablelists.org/mailman/listinfo/biofuel_sustainablelists.org Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Search the combined Biofuel and Biofuels-biz list archives (50,000 messages): http://www.mail-archive.com/biofuel@sustainablelists.org/
