Re: [biofuel] Re: Make plans to shut O'Hare down long-term
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/23/2004 12:07:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps. But don't forget that the particulates in question are soot, which tends to absorb heat rather than reflecting it. That's the point. The soot absorbs heat that would otherwise reach the ground and increases the emissivity of the upper atmosphere, radiating more heat into space. Ah. Now I understand the mechanism. I realize they went to a lot of effort to eliminate smoke from jets; when I was young almost all jets were smoky. However, given that the airlines fly under government regulation, a mandatory smoky engine could be imposed by any dumb non-elected FAA administrator, as long as the scientifically trained lawyers in congress would permit it. Quite possibly, it could be achieved without any engine modifications -- don't want to void the warranty -- by additives to the fuel (easy to enforce) or by injecting something into the exhaust. I know there's no shortage of morons in Congress, but, fortunately, I don't think any of them are quite _that_ dumb. If they could seed cloud formation at high altitude (big if), the clouds would be more effective than soot. Funny you should mention that. One time, while I was living in Germany, on my way to work this one morning I watched an airliner fly across the sky. It was a bright, clear morning with a brilliant blue sky. The airliner left a bright white contrail across the sky. My office was in a corner of an upper floor of a large hangar, with big windows so I had a good view of the sky. Over the course of the next couple of hours I watched that contrail expand until it had become a thin overcast of cirrus clouds covering almost the entire sky. There is no doubt in my mind that under the right conditions airplanes can indeed seed high altitude cloud formation. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Make plans to shut O'Hare down long-term
Alan, The soot layer is more likely to be on the ground, combined with large areas of misc. constructions and clearance of land mass. This would give a larger emission factor of the ground and a warming of the lower atmosphere. Maybe the global waring have a contribution from this also. The upper atmosphere would not only radiate more heat to space, but also to earth, with different wave length. You would also get a significant warming of the upper atmosphere and what we talk about is global warming of the lower atmosphere. I do belive that the changes in emission factors do play an important part in climate change. Hakan At 06:23 24/02/2004, you wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 2/23/2004 12:07:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps. But don't forget that the particulates in question are soot, which tends to absorb heat rather than reflecting it. That's the point. The soot absorbs heat that would otherwise reach the ground and increases the emissivity of the upper atmosphere, radiating more heat into space. Ah. Now I understand the mechanism. I realize they went to a lot of effort to eliminate smoke from jets; when I was young almost all jets were smoky. However, given that the airlines fly under government regulation, a mandatory smoky engine could be imposed by any dumb non-elected FAA administrator, as long as the scientifically trained lawyers in congress would permit it. Quite possibly, it could be achieved without any engine modifications -- don't want to void the warranty -- by additives to the fuel (easy to enforce) or by injecting something into the exhaust. I know there's no shortage of morons in Congress, but, fortunately, I don't think any of them are quite _that_ dumb. If they could seed cloud formation at high altitude (big if), the clouds would be more effective than soot. Funny you should mention that. One time, while I was living in Germany, on my way to work this one morning I watched an airliner fly across the sky. It was a bright, clear morning with a brilliant blue sky. The airliner left a bright white contrail across the sky. My office was in a corner of an upper floor of a large hangar, with big windows so I had a good view of the sky. Over the course of the next couple of hours I watched that contrail expand until it had become a thin overcast of cirrus clouds covering almost the entire sky. There is no doubt in my mind that under the right conditions airplanes can indeed seed high altitude cloud formation. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Make plans to shut O'Hare down long-term
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Much simpler. Readjust the aircraft fuel controls to make a smokier exhaust. It'd take more than readjusting the aircraft fuel controls. You'd have to replace the fuel injectors with less efficient designs. But if you do that you have to worry about turbine inlet temperatures, and turbine coking and other nasty stuff. Best to just leave them alone. It will only cost 1-2% in additional fuel, and the particles wil be very small, practically invisible. Do you have any idea how much money airlines are willing to spend to save 1-2% on their fuel burns? The result, however, will be reflected sunlight and increased emission of IR radiation, thus cooling the earth, a sort of small scale nuclear winter. Perhaps. But don't forget that the particulates in question are soot, which tends to absorb heat rather than reflecting it. Then the Greens can feel good about flying out of O'Hare. Indeed. AP Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Make plans to shut O'Hare down long-term
In a message dated 2/23/2004 12:07:36 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Perhaps. But don't forget that the particulates in question are soot, which tends to absorb heat rather than reflecting it. That's the point. The soot absorbs heat that would otherwise reach the ground and increases the emissivity of the upper atmosphere, radiating more heat into space. I realize they went to a lot of effort to eliminate smoke from jets; when I was young almost all jets were smoky. However, given that the airlines fly under government regulation, a mandatory smoky engine could be imposed by any dumb non-elected FAA administrator, as long as the scientifically trained lawyers in congress would permit it. Quite possibly, it could be achieved without any engine modifications -- don't want to void the warranty -- by additives to the fuel (easy to enforce) or by injecting something into the exhaust. If they could seed cloud formation at high altitude (big if), the clouds would be more effective than soot. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Make plans to shut O'Hare down long-term
Tim wrote: Flying off to a warmer climate: Click on the map to calculate the greenhouse warming effect of any flight! Plus information on aircraft emissions, travel alternatives, dilemmas etc. OK, I'll disclaim myself here as having a vested interest, because I'm a pilot. This site is full of errors. The author needs to do some more homework. Many of the author's points may be true wherever he lives, but they are most decidedly NOT true worldwide. AP Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Make plans to shut O'Hare down long-term
Much simpler. Readjust the aircraft fuel controls to make a smokier exhaust. It will only cost 1-2% in additional fuel, and the particles wil be very small, practically invisible. The result, however, will be reflected sunlight and increased emission of IR radiation, thus cooling the earth, a sort of small scale nuclear winter. Then the Greens can feel good about flying out of O'Hare. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
