Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any details? POC On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: > http://www.enn.com/news/2003-04-25/s_4075.asp > > World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland > > 25 April 2003 > > By Richard Middleton, Associated Press > > REYKJAVIK, Iceland - A filling station for hydrogen-powered vehicles, > said to be the first in the world, opened Thursday in Iceland. > > "In time, what is happening in Iceland will show to the rest of the > world that hydrogen fuel is a real, commercial possibility that will > lead to a cleaner, pollution-free environment," Industry Minister > Valgerdir Sverrisdottir said at an opening ceremony on Iceland's > official First Day of Summer. > > He opened the station by filling up a hydrogen-powered Mercedes-Benz > Sprinter van, a prototype product of a European Union-backed program. > > The major partners in the venture are Icelandic New Energy, > DaimlerChrysler, Norsk Hydro, and Royal Dutch Shell. Iceland was > chosen for the project because 90 percent of its electricity is > generated geothermically or from hydropower. > > The European Union contributed 2.8 million euros (US$3.1 million) of > the 7 million euros ($7.7 million) cost of the project. > > In August, three DaimlerChrysler hydrogen-powered buses will be > introduced and tested for two years in Reykjavik. Each bus will have > a range of about 200 kilometers (125 miles) before it needs refueling. > > Another hydrogen station is to open in Hamburg, Germany, in May, and > others will follow in major cities in the Netherlands, Spain, > Britain, Belgium, and Sweden. > > "It is an important stepping stone along the long road to a > commercially viable hydrogen future," said Jeroen van der Veer, vice > president of the committee of managing directors of Royal Dutch > Shell. "We are confident that in time, hydrogen can make a > significant contribution to the global energy mix. But none of us > expect overnight success. Despite the years of hard work and the > existence of hydrogen fuel cell technology for decades, we are in a > real sense at the very beginning of the hydrogen economy story." > > Norway's Norsk Hydro developed the hydrogen electrolyzers that use > electricity to split water molecules into hydrogen and oxygen atoms. > When used in a fuel cell, hydrogen and oxygen again combine, and > water is the only exhaust product. > > Professor Bragi Arnason, head of chemistry at the University of > Iceland's Science Institute, said the nation's fishing fleet could be > running on hydrogen within 25 years. "Using hydrogen, from renewable > geothermal water in Iceland, is really only the first step towards a > pollutant-free environment," Arnason said. > > Source: Associated Press > > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a hydrogen powered electrical generator. Party of Citizens wrote: >Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen >generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any details? > >POC > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: > > > -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
All hydrogen-powered fuel cells are 'hydrogen powered electrical generators'. To be classified as 'renewable energy', the hydrogen must come from a renewable source. Splitting water with solar electricity to generate hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell is renewable. Converting coal, oil or natural gas to CO2 and hydrogen and burning that hydrogen in a fuel cell to generate electricity (follow?) is NOT renewable, and increases global warming due to atmospheric input of CO2, and yes, the science of global warming is well-understood. Generating hydrogen from geothermal sources that generate electricity to split water to form hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell seems redundant, but the point is that hydrogen is easier to store by far then electricity - which is why Iceland has hydrogen filling stations now. This strategy IS renewable, although pollution is always a factor, even in renewables (solar cell plants, ethanol plants, etc. all produce pollution if not properly designed). The bottom line here is that a tank of fuel is more easily transported and stored then electrical charge is. This business of the conversion of light energy and heat energy to electrical energy and chemical energy is the fundamental physical basis of all renewable energy strategies. This is exactly what green plants do in the course of photosynthesis, at the atomic/molecular level. On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. > So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a > hydrogen powered electrical generator. > > Party of Citizens wrote: > > >Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen > >generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any details? > > > >POC > > > >On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: > > > > > > > > > -- > --- > Martin Klingensmith > http://nnytech.net/ > http://infoarchive.net/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
I meant electricity -> hydrogen then back to electricity. The conversion from electricity to hydrogen then back to electricity is not even close to the efficiency of your everyday lead-acid battery. It may work better for a car where weight and speed of recharging is a concern, but he was talking about a power plant. A solar power plant attempting to produce 24/7 would be nonsense - unless it is capable of providing the full load during the day, there would be nothing left to store for the night. So there is no need to convert the electricity to a gas. A hydroelectric facility runs 24/7 anyway when the water level is up. There is little gain from converting the leftover [if any] to hydrogen unless there is suddenly a great way of storing it uncompressed [compressing would waste a lot of energy]. Icarus Solem wrote: >All hydrogen-powered fuel cells are 'hydrogen powered electrical >generators'. To be classified as 'renewable energy', the hydrogen must >come from a renewable source. Splitting water with solar electricity to >generate hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell is renewable. Converting coal, >oil or natural gas to CO2 and hydrogen and burning that hydrogen in a fuel >cell to generate electricity (follow?) is NOT renewable, and increases >global warming due to atmospheric input of CO2, and yes, the science of >global warming is well-understood. Generating hydrogen from geothermal >sources that generate electricity to split water to form hydrogen to burn >in a fuel cell seems redundant, but the point is that hydrogen is easier >to store by far then electricity - which is why Iceland has hydrogen >filling stations now. This strategy IS renewable, although pollution is >always a factor, even in renewables (solar cell plants, ethanol plants, >etc. all produce pollution if not properly designed). The bottom line >here is that a tank of fuel is more easily transported and stored then >electrical charge is. This business of the conversion of light energy and >heat energy to electrical energy and chemical energy is the >fundamental physical basis of all renewable energy strategies. This is >exactly what green plants do in the course of photosynthesis, at the >atomic/molecular level. > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > >>While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. >>So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a >>hydrogen powered electrical generator. >> >>Party of Citizens wrote: >> >> >> >>>Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen >>>generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any details? >>> >>>POC >>> >>>On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
Martin, I think that you are pushing the right points, when it comes to hydrogen. Hydrogen is a hot issue in US, but I suspect that it is not because any pollution nor renewable interests. My feeling is that it is a result of the very large coal reserves in the US and that it is corporate interests in need of larger production facilities. It is a corporate interest in keeping fuel production as a controlled business and hydrogen fit in this. President Bush is for sure very interested in opening the tax payers coffers, to help his friends to maintain their energy supplier positions in society. Hydrogen from coal is in this case a viable route, as long as US do not sign the Kyoto agreement. President Bush managed to avoid this also and it is possible to see a logical thread in this. Maybe it is a possibility that it actually produces a way out for US, but the real discussion is not public and very sensitive. Nuclear multi stage power is also an alternative for US, but for security, it is not alternative for many countries. For one stage nuclear, it is only 60 years R/P and with strict weapon proliferation it is not many that can do more. For US it is also interesting in the hydrogen picture, since nuke power will have periods of large excess capacity. Hydroelectric power can be adjusted much better to demands than nuclear. I belive that it is not long before we will see Ethanol Fuel cells powering our notebook computers etc. and that is interesting. The Europeans, except Russia, cannot have the same interest in coal and are therefore more open to biofuels. Developing countries also have a lot to gain on this. Hydrogen cannot be any real solution for them, at least not in a foreseeable future. It is very interesting subjects and it is easy to get lost in the technical challenges. It was therefore I started to use my "Ready for use" qualification and the more I apply it, the fewer viable alternatives we have. If future generations are going to have any chance, we have to start to do major implementations of todays "Ready for use" technologies. We do not only need to look as we are busy in solving the issues, we actually have to work on doing it also. Hakan At 08:38 PM 4/29/2003 -0400, you wrote: >I meant electricity -> hydrogen then back to electricity. >The conversion from electricity to hydrogen then back to electricity is >not even close to the efficiency of your everyday lead-acid battery. >It may work better for a car where weight and speed of recharging is a >concern, but he was talking about a power plant. A solar power plant >attempting to produce 24/7 would be nonsense - unless it is capable of >providing the full load during the day, there would be nothing left to >store for the night. So there is no need to convert the electricity to a >gas. >A hydroelectric facility runs 24/7 anyway when the water level is up. >There is little gain from converting the leftover [if any] to hydrogen >unless there is suddenly a great way of storing it uncompressed >[compressing would waste a lot of energy]. > >Icarus Solem wrote: > > >All hydrogen-powered fuel cells are 'hydrogen powered electrical > >generators'. To be classified as 'renewable energy', the hydrogen must > >come from a renewable source. Splitting water with solar electricity to > >generate hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell is renewable. Converting coal, > >oil or natural gas to CO2 and hydrogen and burning that hydrogen in a fuel > >cell to generate electricity (follow?) is NOT renewable, and increases > >global warming due to atmospheric input of CO2, and yes, the science of > >global warming is well-understood. Generating hydrogen from geothermal > >sources that generate electricity to split water to form hydrogen to burn > >in a fuel cell seems redundant, but the point is that hydrogen is easier > >to store by far then electricity - which is why Iceland has hydrogen > >filling stations now. This strategy IS renewable, although pollution is > >always a factor, even in renewables (solar cell plants, ethanol plants, > >etc. all produce pollution if not properly designed). The bottom line > >here is that a tank of fuel is more easily transported and stored then > >electrical charge is. This business of the conversion of light energy and > >heat energy to electrical energy and chemical energy is the > >fundamental physical basis of all renewable energy strategies. This is > >exactly what green plants do in the course of photosynthesis, at the > >atomic/molecular level. > > > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > > > > > >>While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. > >>So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a > >>hydrogen powered electrical generator. > >> > >>Party of Citizens wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen > >>>generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any details? > >>> > >>>POC > >>> > >>>On Tue,
RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
[compressing would waste a lot of energy]. --- A closed electrolyzer is self compressing. Kirk -Original Message- From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 6:39 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland I meant electricity -> hydrogen then back to electricity. The conversion from electricity to hydrogen then back to electricity is not even close to the efficiency of your everyday lead-acid battery. It may work better for a car where weight and speed of recharging is a concern, but he was talking about a power plant. A solar power plant attempting to produce 24/7 would be nonsense - unless it is capable of providing the full load during the day, there would be nothing left to store for the night. So there is no need to convert the electricity to a gas. A hydroelectric facility runs 24/7 anyway when the water level is up. There is little gain from converting the leftover [if any] to hydrogen unless there is suddenly a great way of storing it uncompressed [compressing would waste a lot of energy]. Icarus Solem wrote: >All hydrogen-powered fuel cells are 'hydrogen powered electrical >generators'. To be classified as 'renewable energy', the hydrogen must >come from a renewable source. Splitting water with solar electricity to >generate hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell is renewable. Converting coal, >oil or natural gas to CO2 and hydrogen and burning that hydrogen in a fuel >cell to generate electricity (follow?) is NOT renewable, and increases >global warming due to atmospheric input of CO2, and yes, the science of >global warming is well-understood. Generating hydrogen from geothermal >sources that generate electricity to split water to form hydrogen to burn >in a fuel cell seems redundant, but the point is that hydrogen is easier >to store by far then electricity - which is why Iceland has hydrogen >filling stations now. This strategy IS renewable, although pollution is >always a factor, even in renewables (solar cell plants, ethanol plants, >etc. all produce pollution if not properly designed). The bottom line >here is that a tank of fuel is more easily transported and stored then >electrical charge is. This business of the conversion of light energy and >heat energy to electrical energy and chemical energy is the >fundamental physical basis of all renewable energy strategies. This is >exactly what green plants do in the course of photosynthesis, at the >atomic/molecular level. > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > >>While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. >>So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a >>hydrogen powered electrical generator. >> >>Party of Citizens wrote: >> >> >> >>>Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen >>>generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any details? >>> >>>POC >>> >>>On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 4/18/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
Down goes efficiency. kirk wrote: >[compressing would waste a lot of energy]. >--- >A closed electrolyzer is self compressing. >Kirk > > > > > > -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any data to the contrary? Kirk -Original Message- From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland Down goes efficiency. kirk wrote: >[compressing would waste a lot of energy]. >--- >A closed electrolyzer is self compressing. >Kirk > > > > > > -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 4/18/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the reaction over equilibrium. kirk wrote: >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any data to >the contrary? >Kirk > >-Original Message- >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in >Iceland > > >Down goes efficiency. > >kirk wrote: > > > -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/AG3JAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
Hello Martin, Thanks for clarifying that. If the best way to store electricity is in battery systems (of course a solar plant would run only during daylight, but peak demand is generally in the evenings - not that the local habit of TV addiction helps..) then I imagine that the main systems will be wind, solar and hydroelectric - noone wants expansion of hydroelectric systems, indeed the trend is to remove them. The main issue is energy storage since these energy production systems can't be run on demand. I was thinking that efficienct conversion of electrical to chemical energy was the way to go, but that is what a battery is- thanks. My take is that the viable biofuels are ethanol and biodiesel, and that the push for hydrogen is just a way to keep on burning fossil fuels while appearing to look green - kind of like the situation with Diesel in the late 70's early 80's, when fossil diesel was marketed as a 'solution'. I think that the sum contributions of renewable electricity and biofuel production can meet California's energy needs... otherwise we are going to end up like Argentina. Now I'll try and quantitate this. Cheers, Karus On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > I meant electricity -> hydrogen then back to electricity. > The conversion from electricity to hydrogen then back to electricity is > not even close to the efficiency of your everyday lead-acid battery. > It may work better for a car where weight and speed of recharging is a > concern, but he was talking about a power plant. A solar power plant > attempting to produce 24/7 would be nonsense - unless it is capable of > providing the full load during the day, there would be nothing left to > store for the night. So there is no need to convert the electricity to a > gas. > A hydroelectric facility runs 24/7 anyway when the water level is up. > There is little gain from converting the leftover [if any] to hydrogen > unless there is suddenly a great way of storing it uncompressed > [compressing would waste a lot of energy]. > > Icarus Solem wrote: > > >All hydrogen-powered fuel cells are 'hydrogen powered electrical > >generators'. To be classified as 'renewable energy', the hydrogen must > >come from a renewable source. Splitting water with solar electricity to > >generate hydrogen to burn in a fuel cell is renewable. Converting coal, > >oil or natural gas to CO2 and hydrogen and burning that hydrogen in a > fuel > >cell to generate electricity (follow?) is NOT renewable, and increases > >global warming due to atmospheric input of CO2, and yes, the science of > >global warming is well-understood. Generating hydrogen from geothermal > >sources that generate electricity to split water to form hydrogen to > burn > >in a fuel cell seems redundant, but the point is that hydrogen is easier > >to store by far then electricity - which is why Iceland has hydrogen > >filling stations now. This strategy IS renewable, although pollution is > >always a factor, even in renewables (solar cell plants, ethanol plants, > >etc. all produce pollution if not properly designed). The bottom line > >here is that a tank of fuel is more easily transported and stored then > >electrical charge is. This business of the conversion of light energy > and > >heat energy to electrical energy and chemical energy is the > >fundamental physical basis of all renewable energy strategies. This is > >exactly what green plants do in the course of photosynthesis, at the > >atomic/molecular level. > > > >On Mon, 28 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > > > > > >>While interesting, the hydrogen must come from some other power source. > >>So I'm not sure that any self-respecting engineer would design a > >>hydrogen powered electrical generator. > >> > >>Party of Citizens wrote: > >> > >> > >> > >>>Isn't there a model community project in Toronto which used a hydrogen > >>>generator for all of its electric power? Does anybody have any > details? > >>> > >>>POC > >>> > >>>On Tue, 29 Apr 2003, Keith Addison wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > > > -- > --- > Martin Klingensmith > http://nnytech.net/ > http://infoarchive.net/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, se
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
Hello, It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only in this case you are working against the electric potential of the battery cell, instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. If a hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to fill it as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle battery system - as you run the electrochemical reation to charge the battery, you have to input more energy to run the reaction uphill? I'm guessing that these efficiencies can all be improved - just as the efficiency of biomass to ethanol conversion has increased over the years. Cheers, Karus On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced > out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the > reaction over equilibrium. > > kirk wrote: > > >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any > data to > >the contrary? > >Kirk > > > >-Original Message- > >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > >Iceland > > > > > >Down goes efficiency. > > > >kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > > -- > --- > Martin Klingensmith > http://nnytech.net/ > http://infoarchive.net/ > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/O10svD/Me7FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy (in watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put in the first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than 10 kWh). It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to continue the charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is not energy. (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, but this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to as equalization. A smart charger reduces charging current accordingly in this situation.) When you are putting a gas into a pressurized vessel, it does take higher pressure to overcome the rising pressure in the vessel. It is the work required to create the higher pressure that takes more energy. Darryl McMahon Icarus Solem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only in this > case you are working against the electric potential of the battery cell, > instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. If a > hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to fill it > as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle battery system - > as you run the electrochemical reation to charge the battery, you have to > input more energy to run the reaction uphill? I'm guessing that these > efficiencies can all be improved - just as the efficiency of biomass to > ethanol conversion has increased over the years. > > Cheers, Karus > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced > > out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the > > reaction over equilibrium. > > > > kirk wrote: > > > > >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any > > data to > > >the contrary? > > >Kirk > > > > > >-Original Message----- > > >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM > > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > > >Iceland > > > > > > > > >Down goes efficiency. > > > > > >kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > Martin Klingensmith > > http://nnytech.net/ > > http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
but voltage is not energy -- P=EI That says it is. Kirk -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:38 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy (in watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put in the first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than 10 kWh). It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to continue the charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is not energy. (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, but this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to as equalization. A smart charger reduces charging current accordingly in this situation.) When you are putting a gas into a pressurized vessel, it does take higher pressure to overcome the rising pressure in the vessel. It is the work required to create the higher pressure that takes more energy. Darryl McMahon Icarus Solem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hello, > > It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only in this > case you are working against the electric potential of the battery cell, > instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. If a > hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to fill it > as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle battery system - > as you run the electrochemical reation to charge the battery, you have to > input more energy to run the reaction uphill? I'm guessing that these > efficiencies can all be improved - just as the efficiency of biomass to > ethanol conversion has increased over the years. > > Cheers, Karus > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced > > out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the > > reaction over equilibrium. > > > > kirk wrote: > > > > >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any > > data to > > >the contrary? > > >Kirk > > > > > >-Original Message- > > >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM > > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > > >Iceland > > > > > > > > >Down goes efficiency. > > > > > >kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > --- > > Martin Klingensmith > > http://nnytech.net/ > > http://infoarchive.net/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.474 / Virus Database: 272 - Release Date: 4/18/2003 Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Get A Free Psychic Reading! Your Online Answer To Life's Important Questions. http://us.click.yahoo.com/cjB9SD/od7FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland
kirk wrote: >but voltage is not energy >-- >P=EI > >That says it is. > >Kirk > > > energy(J) = power(W) * time(s) -- --- Martin Klingensmith http://nnytech.net/ http://infoarchive.net/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Rent DVDs from home. Over 14,500 titles. Free Shipping & No Late Fees. Try Netflix for FREE! http://us.click.yahoo.com/BVVfoB/hP.FAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
Sorry to quibble, but voltage is potential difference, which implies a capacity to do work but it is not energy. When current is flowing (amps), work is being done, and that is energy. Volts x amps = watts. Energy is measured in watts, not volts. So, let's consider the power equation, P=EI, where P = power (in watts), E = voltage (in volts), and I = current (in amps) Power (energy) is measured in watts, but E is potential difference (or electromotive force) and is measured in volts. There is no power (energy) until there is current (amps). Voltage is not energy, and that is what P=EI says. Voltage x current = energy. Darryl McMahon "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > but voltage is not energy > -- > P=EI > > That says it is. > > Kirk > > -Original Message- > From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:38 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > Iceland > > > When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy (in > watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put in the > first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than 10 kWh). > It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to continue the > charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is not energy. > > (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where > more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, but > this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to as > equalization. A smart charger reduces charging current accordingly in > this situation.) > > When you are putting a gas into a pressurized vessel, it does take higher > pressure to overcome the rising pressure in the vessel. It is the work > required to create the higher pressure that takes more energy. > > Darryl McMahon > > Icarus Solem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only in > > this case you are working against the electric potential of the battery > > cell, instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. If > > a hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to > > fill it as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle > > battery system - as you run the electrochemical reation to charge the > > battery, you have to input more energy to run the reaction uphill? I'm > > guessing that these efficiencies can all be improved - just as the > > efficiency of biomass to ethanol conversion has increased over the > > years. > > > > Cheers, Karus > > > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > > > An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced > > > out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the > > > reaction over equilibrium. > > > > > > kirk wrote: > > > > > > >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any > > > data to > > > >the contrary? > > > >Kirk > > > > > > > >-Original Message- > > > >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM > > > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens > > > >in Iceland > > > > > > > > > > > >Down goes efficiency. > > > > > > > >kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > Martin Klingensmith > > > http://nnytech.net/ > > > http://infoarchive.net/ > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
Energy is the ability to do work, while power is the rate at which work is done. Power is a time average of energy (energy per unit time). 1 kW is energy 1 kWh is power Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:56 PM Subject: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland) > Sorry to quibble, but voltage is potential difference, which implies a capacity to > do work but it is not energy. When current is flowing (amps), work is being done, > and that is energy. Volts x amps = watts. Energy is measured in watts, not volts. > > So, let's consider the power equation, P=EI, > where P = power (in watts), > E = voltage (in volts), and > I = current (in amps) > > Power (energy) is measured in watts, but E is potential difference (or > electromotive force) and is measured in volts. There is no power (energy) until > there is current (amps). > > Voltage is not energy, and that is what P=EI says. Voltage x current = energy. > > Darryl McMahon > > "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > but voltage is not energy > > -- > > P=EI > > > > That says it is. > > > > Kirk > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:38 PM > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > > Iceland > > > > > > When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy (in > > watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put in the > > first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than 10 kWh). > > It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to continue the > > charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is not energy. > > > > (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where > > more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, but > > this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to as > > equalization. A smart charger reduces charging current accordingly in > > this situation.) > > > > When you are putting a gas into a pressurized vessel, it does take higher > > pressure to overcome the rising pressure in the vessel. It is the work > > required to create the higher pressure that takes more energy. > > > > Darryl McMahon > > > > Icarus Solem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only in > > > this case you are working against the electric potential of the battery > > > cell, instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. If > > > a hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to > > > fill it as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle > > > battery system - as you run the electrochemical reation to charge the > > > battery, you have to input more energy to run the reaction uphill? I'm > > > guessing that these efficiencies can all be improved - just as the > > > efficiency of biomass to ethanol conversion has increased over the > > > years. > > > > > > Cheers, Karus > > > > > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > > > > > An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced > > > > out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the > > > > reaction over equilibrium. > > > > > > > > kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any > > > > data to > > > > >the contrary? > > > > >Kirk > > > > > > > > > >-Original Message- > > > > >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM > > > > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens > > > > >in Iceland > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Down goes efficiency. > > > > > > > > > >kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
Re: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
Yes, as the battery is given a higher and higher voltage (while maintaining a constant current, that's the key) ... yes ... more "energy/power" is flowing. If in doubt ... consider this: 1 foot of resistance wire ... takes (for example) 1 amp flowing through it to make it "red hot". Change the wire length to say 10 feet. More resistance ... same voltage less current flows ... wire cools off. Raise power supply to 10 times the voltage ... current rises to exactly 1 amp again... wire glows red again as in #1. But look at it. 10 feet of glowing wire ... instead of 1 foot. Which do you think would get the pot of water hotter faster?? Which do you think is shoving more "energy" into the water to heat it up??? Voltage is not energy, but it "controls" the amount of watts transferred ... and the watts is energy. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sorry to quibble, but voltage is potential difference, which implies a capacity to do work but it is not energy. When current is flowing (amps), work is being done, and that is energy. Volts x amps = watts. Energy is measured in watts, not volts. > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
There is no power (energy) until there is current (amps). -- And there is no power until there is voltage. It is expressed as the product of quantity of electrons (current) and the electromotive force producing the current (voltage). But when you say the first unit of charge in a battery is the same as the last and the voltage makes no difference then you are saying P= doesn't matter x I. I don't think so and neither does the power company. 100 amps at 12 volts costs less than 100 amps at 14 volts for the same unit of time. Kirk -Original Message- From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 5:57 PM To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland) Sorry to quibble, but voltage is potential difference, which implies a capacity to do work but it is not energy. When current is flowing (amps), work is being done, and that is energy. Volts x amps = watts. Energy is measured in watts, not volts. So, let's consider the power equation, P=EI, where P = power (in watts), E = voltage (in volts), and I = current (in amps) Power (energy) is measured in watts, but E is potential difference (or electromotive force) and is measured in volts. There is no power (energy) until there is current (amps). Voltage is not energy, and that is what P=EI says. Voltage x current = energy. Darryl McMahon "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > but voltage is not energy > -- > P=EI > > That says it is. > > Kirk > > -Original Message- > From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:38 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > Iceland > > > When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy (in > watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put in the > first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than 10 kWh). > It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to continue the > charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is not energy. > > (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where > more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, but > this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to as > equalization. A smart charger reduces charging current accordingly in > this situation.) > > When you are putting a gas into a pressurized vessel, it does take higher > pressure to overcome the rising pressure in the vessel. It is the work > required to create the higher pressure that takes more energy. > > Darryl McMahon > > Icarus Solem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only in > > this case you are working against the electric potential of the battery > > cell, instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. If > > a hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to > > fill it as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle > > battery system - as you run the electrochemical reation to charge the > > battery, you have to input more energy to run the reaction uphill? I'm > > guessing that these efficiencies can all be improved - just as the > > efficiency of biomass to ethanol conversion has increased over the > > years. > > > > Cheers, Karus > > > > On Wed, 30 Apr 2003, martin wrote: > > > > > An electrochemical reaction where the desired product has to be forced > > > out at a relatively high pressure requires more energy to push the > > > reaction over equilibrium. > > > > > > kirk wrote: > > > > > > >I'm not aware of any change in potential with pressure. You have any > > > data to > > > >the contrary? > > > >Kirk > > > > > > > >-Original Message- > > > >From: martin [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 9:29 PM > > > >To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens > > > >in Iceland > > > > > > > > > > > >Down goes efficiency. > > > > > > > >kirk wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > --- > > > Martin Klingensmith > > > http://nnytech.net/ > > > http://infoarchive.net/ > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: htt
Re: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
First, my apologies for using "power" and "energy" somewhat interchangeably. Shifting precision up from common usage to scientific usage. Steve, I believe you have the units for power and energy reversed. In the Power Equation (P=EI), P (power) is measured in watts, not watt-hours. Power - ability to do work. Power is instantaneous, e.g. horsepower. And energy is measured in watt-hours, not watts. http://www.windpower.dk/stat/unitsene.htm (for one example on this subject). Energy - amount of work that can be done. Energy has a time component. Darryl McMahon "Steve Spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Energy is the ability to do work, while power is the rate at which work is > done. > > Power is a time average of energy (energy per unit time). > > 1 kW is energy > 1 kWh is power > > Steve Spence > Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter > & Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: > http://www.green-trust.org > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > - Original Message - > From: "Darryl McMahon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 7:56 PM > Subject: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service > station opens in Iceland) > > > > Sorry to quibble, but voltage is potential difference, which implies a > capacity to > > do work but it is not energy. When current is flowing (amps), work is > being done, > > and that is energy. Volts x amps = watts. Energy is measured in watts, > not volts. > > > > So, let's consider the power equation, P=EI, > > where P = power (in watts), > > E = voltage (in volts), and > > I = current (in amps) > > > > Power (energy) is measured in watts, but E is potential difference (or > > electromotive force) and is measured in volts. There is no power > > (energy) > until > > there is current (amps). > > > > Voltage is not energy, and that is what P=EI says. Voltage x current = > energy. > > > > Darryl McMahon > > > > "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > but voltage is not energy > > > ---------- > > > P=EI > > > > > > That says it is. > > > > > > Kirk > > > > > > -Original Message- > > > From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:38 PM > > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > > > Iceland > > > > > > > > > When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy > > > (in watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put > > > in the first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than > > > 10 kWh). It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to > > > continue the charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is > > > not energy. > > > > > > (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where > > > more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, > but > > > this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to as > > > equalization. A smart charger reduces charging current accordingly in > > > this situation.) > > > > > > When you are putting a gas into a pressurized vessel, it does take > higher > > > pressure to overcome the rising pressure in the vessel. It is the > > > work required to create the higher pressure that takes more energy. > > > > > > Darryl McMahon > > > > > > Icarus Solem <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > > > Hello, > > > > > > > > It seems that the same is true for charging a battery system, only > > > > in this case you are working against the electric potential of the > battery > > > > cell, instead of the mechanical potential of the pressurized system. > If > > > > a hydrogen tank is initially empty, it takes more energy per unit to > > > > fill it as the pressure rises. The same is true for a deep-cycle > > > > battery system - as you run the electrochemical reation to charge > > > > the battery, you have to input more energy to run the reaction > > > > uphill? > I'm > > > > guessing that these efficiencies can all be improved - just as the > > > > efficiency of biomass to ethanol conversion has increased over the > > > > years. > > > > > > > > Ch
RE: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
Trying again. "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > There is no power (energy) until > there is current (amps). > -- > And there is no power until there is voltage. It is expressed as the > product of quantity of electrons (current) and the electromotive force > producing the current (voltage). But when you say the first unit of charge > in a battery is the same as the last and the voltage makes no difference > then you are saying P= doesn't matter x I. What I was trying to say is that putting energy into a battery (watt-hours), that putting the 10th watt-hour in takes the same energy as the first watt-hour. Because a watt-hour is a watt-hour. Effectively, a battery stores watt-hours (not amp-hours). So both voltage and current matter, but one cannot be used independently of the other when talking about power (watts) or energy (watt-hours). My original point was that it does not take more power to put in a later watt-hour than an earlier watt-hour. A watt-hour is a watt-hour. The voltage may go up. If so, the current will drop to maintain the balance (volts x amps = watts). > I don't think so and neither > does the power company. 100 amps at 12 volts costs less than 100 amps at > 14 volts for the same unit of time. And so it should because the first is 1200 watt-hours, and the second is 1400 watt- hours. If the voltage goes up, and current is constant, then the watt-hours (energy) also go up. In this scenario, the increased power (watts) is being used to fill the battery faster (more watt-hours per unit time), not to just overcome "higher pressure". This is not the same as a pressure vessel. Unless you are capturing the energy associated with the pressure, (that is you can get more energy from 1 mole of hydrogen stored at 3000 psi than from 1 mole of hydrogen stored at 1000 psi), then the additional energy used to force the hydrogen to higher pressures in the vessel is lost when the hydrogen is released for use as a fuel. I'm obviously strugging for a way to make this clear. How about, with electricity, the higher voltage, while a threshold for taking in more electricity, also has a value when the electricity is being consumed. The higher voltage means more watt- hours for the same current. In the pressure vessel, there is no such advantage. The existing (rising while filling) pressure presents a threshold that must be overcome to continue filling. However, when the hydrogen is being released, the higher pressure (dropping as consumed), produces no additional energy in the hydrogen which can be used in the engine or fuel cell or whatever. Darryl McMahon > -Original Message- > From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 5:57 PM > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service > station opens in Iceland) > > > Sorry to quibble, but voltage is potential difference, which implies a > capacity to do work but it is not energy. When current is flowing (amps), > work is being done, and that is energy. Volts x amps = watts. Energy is > measured in watts, not volts. > > So, let's consider the power equation, P=EI, > where P = power (in watts), > E = voltage (in volts), and > I = current (in amps) > > Power (energy) is measured in watts, but E is potential difference (or > electromotive force) and is measured in volts. There is no power (energy) > until there is current (amps). > > Voltage is not energy, and that is what P=EI says. Voltage x current = > energy. > > Darryl McMahon > > "kirk" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > but voltage is not energy > > -- > > P=EI > > > > That says it is. > > > > Kirk > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Darryl McMahon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:38 PM > > To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > > Subject: Re: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in > > Iceland > > > > > > When charging a deep-cycle battery, it does not take any more energy (in > > watt- hours) to put in the tenth kilowatt-hour than it did to put in the > > first kilowatt- hour (assuming at capacity somewhat larger than 10 kWh). > > It may take a higher voltage (potential difference) to continue the > > charging as the battery becomes charged, but voltage is not energy. > > > > (There is an exception at end of charge for certain chemistries, where > > more energy is used to put in the last few percent of the full charge, > > but this is no longer charging, but overcharging, sometimes referred to > > as equalization. A sma
Re: Voltage (was: RE: [biofuel] World's first hydrogen service station opens in Iceland)
I think though, that if the current drops (as the battery charges) ... that the battery will charge slower and slower. Curtis Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: Darryl McMahon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> A watt-hour is a watt-hour. The voltage may go up. If so, the current will drop to maintain the balance (volts x amps = watts). Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Make Money Online Auctions! Make $500.00 or We Will Give You Thirty Dollars for Trying! http://us.click.yahoo.com/KXUxcA/fNtFAA/uetFAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
