Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
> Actually what probably will happen long before that is small producers will >pop up all over the place, selling bootleg biodiesel without the tax, just as >we've seen with moonshine, tobacco, drugs, guns, and everything else the gov't >has stupidly tried to exert onerous taxes or other controls upon. > Biodiesel is too easy to make, unlike dino-diesel, and too easy to sell to >your friends and neighbors without much chance of any real repercussions. I like some of this thinking. In each of these cases, the government has some claimed reason for protecting the people. Of the substances you name, I personally think that biodiesel is the best or nearly the best choice for someone wishing to produce a product that amounts to civil disobedience (close competitor: hemp). All of the products you name have at one time or another been produced by folks who see themselves as essentially motivated by a correct path of civil disobedience. But in the case of biodiesel, which could somewhat help the war effort, I think it would be doubly good at this time. What is easy for some though (making biodiesel by you and others here) is not as transparent to others. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
On Sat, 25 May 2002 17:05:42 +0900, you wrote: >Murdoch wrote: > >> >One has to note that new chemicals, drugs, GM crops, iffy stuff >> >promoted by the big guys does not exactly receive the same treatment. >> >What do they call it? - substantive equivalence, or something. >> >>But, if this is what it sounds like the idea that new substances >>may be taken as somewhat safe and not to be prohibited while some >>verification takes place, based on past testing of similar substances, > >What substance of the past would be similar to a GMO? > >>then why doesn't this biodiesel board get testing of some sort of >>standardized biodiesel done, and then all makers can make it, so long >>as they conform to some standards. > >You ask rather a lot of us. This board has only a virtual existence, >its membership is worldwide, not confined to the US, it has no >resources, it's dedicated to small-scale and home-production, it's >run by a small NGO devoted to Third World rural development issues. >And anyway, that wheel has already been invented, in many countries. >It is not our role at all. But it sounds like the testing has already been done, and the yellow biodiesel guy would be free to go and sell his goods so long as he was a member of the board. If testing has been done, then all that need be done is the EPA to get straight, for itself, what constitutes a fuel substantially similar to those biofuels that have already been tested. If it has not been done, then what would appear to be in everyone's interests would be for the testing to be done on fuels which can generally be considered representative of biodiesel, and then for approval of all makers to be contingent on their making substantially similar fuel. I know I know it would cost a lot, fine, the biodiesel board doesn't want to pay for anything, fine, good, what*ever*. I'm curious, since I am a taxpayer and a fuel-consumer, why the EPA, the DOE, and the politicians I vote for (including both Bushes) have been paying lip-service to biodiesel and biofuels for two decades or more and they still don't know what they are and what the public health effects are of using them. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Greg, Sorry. The yard grabbed my attentions all day. I wish I had a definitive answer for you. I'm looking back at my notes and I see two references to exemptions. One is an exemption for "extensive health affects studies" for producers under $10 million a year. The other states a waiver of Tier II studies for low volume producers of biodiesel under the same $10 million annual revenues, with apparently Tier I mandatory unless one joins the NBB. It's an EPA thing, with the specific answer you and everyone is looking for laying within their realm. Trick is getting to someone who knows the answer sometime before all your teeth fall out. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Greg and April <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 1:05 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > > - Original Message - > From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 20:33 > Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > > > > > of biodiesel under a given amount won't have to conduct > > Health Affects studies any more than small volume dino-diesel > > producers do today. > > > > Were can I find more info on this small volume dino-diesel exemption? > > Greg H. > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
- Original Message - From: "Appal Energy" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 20:33 Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > > of biodiesel under a given amount won't have to conduct > Health Affects studies any more than small volume dino-diesel > producers do today. > Were can I find more info on this small volume dino-diesel exemption? Greg H. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Murdoch wrote: > >One has to note that new chemicals, drugs, GM crops, iffy stuff > >promoted by the big guys does not exactly receive the same treatment. > >What do they call it? - substantive equivalence, or something. > >But, if this is what it sounds like the idea that new substances >may be taken as somewhat safe and not to be prohibited while some >verification takes place, based on past testing of similar substances, What substance of the past would be similar to a GMO? >then why doesn't this biodiesel board get testing of some sort of >standardized biodiesel done, and then all makers can make it, so long >as they conform to some standards. You ask rather a lot of us. This board has only a virtual existence, its membership is worldwide, not confined to the US, it has no resources, it's dedicated to small-scale and home-production, it's run by a small NGO devoted to Third World rural development issues. And anyway, that wheel has already been invented, in many countries. It is not our role at all. >If we are to maintain credibility and show some good solid adherence >to the Precautionary Principle (oft ignored by many strident >activists) The Precautionary Principle is not ignored here. Presuming "substantive equivalence" of, say, GMOs to not-transgenic crops and foods certainly ignores it. Corporate interest groups and their buddies in government are definitely the major culprits when it comes to ignoring the Precautionary Principle, activists in only a very minor way. >there are certainly ways in which new fuels including >biodiesel might turn out to have unexpected or unintended unhealthful >effects. I think not with biodiesel, which now has many millions of miles and a large amount of research behind it. It's not exactly new, it's been in use for more than 70 years. In Germany more than 1,200 filling stations sell it at the pump, and it's cheaper than dino-diesel. How many pumps in the US now? Has it reached 10 yet? Biodiesel is pretty much a known quantity now - there could still be unexpected effects, as with everything, but the chances would be very small. The chances of unexpected effects with such as GMOs are rather high, and in fact emerging all the time, in spite of industry denials and very heavy-duty spin to the contrary. So no, it doesn't exactly receive the same treatment at all, and that's not at all justified. >But while this may be true, I don't think it's right for testing or >production to get held up on pretext of caution (not out of real >caution). In any case, surely some sorts of testing have already been >done. Indeed. Best Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
On Fri, May 24, 2002 at 10:33:49PM -0400, Appal Energy wrote: > Now that everyone "knows" how much cleaner biodiesel is in > comparison to dino-diesel, which was pretty much a given by > everyone even before the tests, there will be a lag time before > producers of biodiesel under a given amount won't have to conduct > Health Affects studies any more than small volume dino-diesel > producers do today. > > That effective date should prove to be May 25, 2013, the so > called "break even" date by the NBB for recovery of investments. > > Whether or not the same type exemption will jell and an "equal > protection under the law" process develop for biodiesel as > presently exists for dino-dieselers is anyone's guess. In the > meantime, those who wish to produce road taxible biodiesel in the > US will fall under the same general guidelines as anyone who > wishes to manufacture an item while a patent is still in effect. > But ooner or later the "patent" runs out. Actually what probably will happen long before that is small producers will pop up all over the place, selling bootleg biodiesel without the tax, just as we've seen with moonshine, tobacco, drugs, guns, and everything else the gov't has stupidly tried to exert onerous taxes or other controls upon. Biodiesel is too easy to make, unlike dino-diesel, and too easy to sell to your friends and neighbors without much chance of any real repercussions. Anything that is easy to grow or make and people can sell at a profit will be on the market, especially if they can undercut the big guys who have to pay the fees and taxes -- and also just because it's fun and gives one heck of a lot of people a lot of satisfaction to stick it to the powers that be whenever and however they can. Read the evening news -- people are making millions just buying cigarettes in NC and hauling them up to Detroit. And moonshine is still as common as dirt. So is pot. And bootleg biodiesel easily has the moral highroad, eh? Harmon Seaver CyberShamanix http://www.cybershamanix.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Murdoch, The way the rules are written, your firm could produce virtually the cleanest biodiesel of all producers in the world, exceeding ASTM standards by a "country mile," but you'd still have to either be an NBB member, pay the high bond and volume production tax for access to Health Affects data, or pay to have the Health Affects studies done. Not exactly the same rulebook that exists for small present day manufacturers of dino-diesel, as they can get an exemption from such testing under a particular amount of production annually. The NBB/soybean councils lobbied the EPA and were in on the ground floor establishing the ground rules for biodiesel fuels. Part of the unwritten rules were that the soybean councils who paid for the testing should have every opportunity to get their money back. Some would say that it's not "their money," as all the test funds came from soybean checkoff tax on every bushel of beans. But that's another arguement. Perhaps the only real arguement that could be put to use on behalf of such disproportional application of testing procedures is that dino-diesel has been around for close to a century. The EPA knows exactly how dirty it is. On the other hand, and it's never been a very good arguement right out of the chute, the claim can be made that nobody knew what the emissions of bio-diesel would be. Therefore it should be subjected to testing to insure the public health. Now that everyone "knows" how much cleaner biodiesel is in comparison to dino-diesel, which was pretty much a given by everyone even before the tests, there will be a lag time before producers of biodiesel under a given amount won't have to conduct Health Affects studies any more than small volume dino-diesel producers do today. That effective date should prove to be May 25, 2013, the so called "break even" date by the NBB for recovery of investments. Whether or not the same type exemption will jell and an "equal protection under the law" process develop for biodiesel as presently exists for dino-dieselers is anyone's guess. In the meantime, those who wish to produce road taxible biodiesel in the US will fall under the same general guidelines as anyone who wishes to manufacture an item while a patent is still in effect. But ooner or later the "patent" runs out. It's really kind of amusing when you think about how this was pulled off.sufficient availabilty of capital, a very small core group of technical persons to work on the fuel production aspect and a very small group of "lobbyists" jetting around like chickens with their heads cut off meeting with every agency and politician that had jurisdiction or interest in the endeavor. I hope the soybean councils compensate the people that pulled this one off with some pretty healthy lifetime bennies. Hopefully they have the opportunity to enjoy them before they drop dead from a coronary or from the chain smoking to "relieve their stress." Todd Swearingen ----- Original Message - From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Friday, May 24, 2002 10:07 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > >One has to note that new chemicals, drugs, GM crops, iffy stuff > >promoted by the big guys does not exactly receive the same treatment. > >What do they call it? - substantive equivalence, or something. > > But, if this is what it sounds like the idea that new substances > may be taken as somewhat safe and not to be prohibited while some > verification takes place, based on past testing of similar substances, > then why doesn't this biodiesel board get testing of some sort of > standardized biodiesel done, and then all makers can make it, so long > as they conform to some standards. > > If we are to maintain credibility and show some good solid adherence > to the Precautionary Principle (oft ignored by many strident > activists) there are certainly ways in which new fuels including > biodiesel might turn out to have unexpected or unintended unhealthful > effects. > > But while this may be true, I don't think it's right for testing or > production to get held up on pretext of caution (not out of real > caution). In any case, surely some sorts of testing have already been > done. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ADVERTISEMENT > > > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
>One has to note that new chemicals, drugs, GM crops, iffy stuff >promoted by the big guys does not exactly receive the same treatment. >What do they call it? - substantive equivalence, or something. But, if this is what it sounds like the idea that new substances may be taken as somewhat safe and not to be prohibited while some verification takes place, based on past testing of similar substances, then why doesn't this biodiesel board get testing of some sort of standardized biodiesel done, and then all makers can make it, so long as they conform to some standards. If we are to maintain credibility and show some good solid adherence to the Precautionary Principle (oft ignored by many strident activists) there are certainly ways in which new fuels including biodiesel might turn out to have unexpected or unintended unhealthful effects. But while this may be true, I don't think it's right for testing or production to get held up on pretext of caution (not out of real caution). In any case, surely some sorts of testing have already been done. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
murdoch65 wrote: >Some of my time as an activist has been spent piecing together clues >and then stating an opinion or hypothesis which seemed to fit the >clues, before I was really able to test the idea. The article below >does bring to mind some things I've been thinking about as to the >powers that be preventing the little guy from going into the fuel >business. The prevention of fermentation and sale of ethanol without >government hassle also fits in this category somewhat, never mind that >it is usually regarded as a drug issue. I've seen histories saying it was not a drugs issue, or only partly so, and that petroleum interests were much involved. Other histories say the same thing of the outlawing of cannabis. I haven't researched either case myself. It does make a rather tempting pattern, doesn't it? >But I've never actually seen >any discussion of what it would take one guy to set himself up in the >fuel business until now. Indeed, the powers that be reacted pretty >swiftly to shut him down, as I had thought they might. > >This biodiesel board seemed in the wrong also. Part of it certainly was. But that was scotched, with some difficulty and a lot of noise, and then we moved the whole subject away to a quieter place (closed discussion group). I think all or most of the relevant issues were dealt with there, in detail, very interesting. >In any case, the one-sided treatment of this very creative and >industrious person was uniquely rotten. I happen to like the idea >that our government has some interest in trying to nail down if fuel >is being sold that is unhealthy and I don't think the case was proved >that his biodiesel is healthy, but this could not and should not be >used to prevent this man from doing his business. Neither was it proved that it was unhealthy - it was presumed guilty until proven innocent, with is probably right (I agree that official quality controls are necessary), but the onus of proof was put on him, and the goalposts set impossibly high. One has to note that new chemicals, drugs, GM crops, iffy stuff promoted by the big guys does not exactly receive the same treatment. What do they call it? - substantive equivalence, or something. Yeah, right. Big Timber has a nice term for clearcutting of old-growth forest: they call it "temporary meadows". Old-growth = "over-mature". At that level the rules are made to be bent, the authorities stand by or assist. >There has to be a >way to monitor such things without preventing industrious people from >doing business. I'm sure if there were any will, or even just the lack of a contrary will, that wouldn't be very difficult. >It is disgusting to me when I see the little guy prevented from >realising his dreams by such utter disdain for his time, money and >efforts. The amounts of money involved, in particular, are totally >representative of how much disdain there is for the little guy and his >efforts. Seems so. Letters were written to legislators and so on concerning this case, but I haven't heard of any upshot from those initiatives. Considering who writes US energy policy these days it's not very hopeful. I still feel the best approach is at the local level, but I know very little (okay, nothing) about local- and state-level laws and regulations as opposed to the EPA's federal powers and so on - I don't even know if I put that right, but I guess you'll know what I'm trying to say. Regards Keith > >EPA thwarts Ashfield man's effort to sell cleaner diesel fuel > >By VIRGINIA RAY > >Recorder Staff and The Associated Press > >February 15, 2002. > > > >ASHFIELD - The business that started as a labor of love to help protect the > >environment has come to a screeching halt after being refused paperwork by > >the federal agency charged with doing just that. Thomas Leue has closed his > >fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental Protection Agency >refused to allow > >him to register his biodiesel fuel and sell it to power vehicles unless he > >first tests its health effects. > >"I am out of business of selling fuel to the public," said Leue, >who sold his > >grease gas at Green Fields Market in Greenfield and Elmer's Store in > >Ashfield, among other locations. "I cannot do that, nor can I even >barter the > >fuel." Leue said he knew that, as a manufacturer of the vegetable oil fuel, > >he had to be registered, and he submitted the proper form to the EPA in > >September "They took six months to respond," he said Thursday, "And this is > >the only time they've ever said no to anyone." > >Leue says the health testing required is stratospherically priced , > >especially for a single producer such as him. "They require me to >submit $2.2 > >million of data to prove the testing is safe," said Leue, the town's former > >wastewater treatment plant operator who has been using restaurant grease to > >make gas for four years. "They said some of the data is available in the > >public domain and maybe I co
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Some of my time as an activist has been spent piecing together clues and then stating an opinion or hypothesis which seemed to fit the clues, before I was really able to test the idea. The article below does bring to mind some things I've been thinking about as to the powers that be preventing the little guy from going into the fuel business. The prevention of fermentation and sale of ethanol without government hassle also fits in this category somewhat, never mind that it is usually regarded as a drug issue. But I've never actually seen any discussion of what it would take one guy to set himself up in the fuel business until now. Indeed, the powers that be reacted pretty swiftly to shut him down, as I had thought they might. This biodiesel board seemed in the wrong also. In any case, the one-sided treatment of this very creative and industrious person was uniquely rotten. I happen to like the idea that our government has some interest in trying to nail down if fuel is being sold that is unhealthy and I don't think the case was proved that his biodiesel is healthy, but this could not and should not be used to prevent this man from doing his business. There has to be a way to monitor such things without preventing industrious people from doing business. It is disgusting to me when I see the little guy prevented from realising his dreams by such utter disdain for his time, money and efforts. The amounts of money involved, in particular, are totally representative of how much disdain there is for the little guy and his efforts. >EPA thwarts Ashfield man's effort to sell cleaner diesel fuel >By VIRGINIA RAY >Recorder Staff and The Associated Press >February 15, 2002. > >ASHFIELD - The business that started as a labor of love to help protect the >environment has come to a screeching halt after being refused paperwork by >the federal agency charged with doing just that. Thomas Leue has closed his >fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental Protection Agency refused to allow >him to register his biodiesel fuel and sell it to power vehicles unless he >first tests its health effects. >"I am out of business of selling fuel to the public," said Leue, who sold his >grease gas at Green Fields Market in Greenfield and Elmer's Store in >Ashfield, among other locations. "I cannot do that, nor can I even barter the >fuel." Leue said he knew that, as a manufacturer of the vegetable oil fuel, >he had to be registered, and he submitted the proper form to the EPA in >September "They took six months to respond," he said Thursday, "And this is >the only time they've ever said no to anyone." >Leue says the health testing required is stratospherically priced , >especially for a single producer such as him. "They require me to submit $2.2 >million of data to prove the testing is safe," said Leue, the town's former >wastewater treatment plant operator who has been using restaurant grease to >make gas for four years. "They said some of the data is available in the >public domain and maybe I could get it down to a million dollars. And this is >for stuff everyone understands is completely nontoxic and reduces pollutants >by 90 percent and reduces global warming by 100 percent. It's really good >fuel. Everyone says so." >While its use doesn't cut down on smog-causing nitrogen oxide, biodiesel >produces none of the carbon monoxide or small particles created by burning >traditional petroleum-based diesel fuel. >Jim Caldwell, an environmental engineer with the EPA, said the federal >government has nothing against small business owners making biodiesel, but >the agency does require the product to meet federal guidelines and emissions >standards. "We're not trying to prohibit him from making or selling >biodiesel," Caldwell said. "But he can't legally sell it for on-road vehicle >use unless he registers it with us." >Rather'than performing the involved research and testing himself, Leue could >join the National Biodiesel Board, a testing consortium of 29 manufacturers. >But that organization requires a $100,000 cash bond up front plus a $2,500 >annual fee, all unaffordable, says Leue, who has been selling his product for >only a year, refining it in his old, converted sugarhouse. >"And I sold everything I could make," he said of the 3,650 gallons he >produced last year. "I'm not sure I could really make a profit off it yet. I >was still leaming, and it's kind of a premium product, but it looked like I >was making more money than I ever made with maple syrup. Plus, they're saying >if I register and ever go out of business, I couldn't even make it for >myself." >If Leue were to continue to produce and sell the fuel for cars, he faces >fines of up to $25,000 per day. He's already let two of his three other >employees go. He is, however, allowed to use the fuel for off-road vehicles >such as tractors, and says he's considering making a cleaning compound, but >for now he says he's not sure exactly how he'll respond. >Peg Pucino
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
>Who was the small producer and is there a news link to a local paper >or something that covered this? > >MM Yellow Biodiesel, much discussed here and elsewhere, several press reports. The main thread here was called "EPA hassle". Unfortunately much of it is involved a preposterous and distracting argument with a troll (who blamed it all on Yellow Biodiesel). I don't recommend ploughing through all that crap in the archives. Eventually we took it offlist to a private discussion group with several interested parties, including Yellow Biodiesel and other small producers or would-be small producers. I'd say all relevant information was obtained and discussed there, along with options, if you can call them that. There was no real resolution, however - small producers face major obstacles in the US. And elsewhere (such as Spain). Note, however, that these restrictions in the US only apply to sales of fuel for on-road use. A couple of press reports follow. Regards Keith EPA: Order shuts down biodiesel fuel manufacturer By WILLIAM SWEET and BETSY CALVERT AP Staff writers ASHFIELD - A manufacturer of biodiesel fuel has shut down his operation claiming he can't afford the fees needed to register his grease-to-gas business with the Environmental Protection Agency. What galls Thomas Leue is that his situation seems to have less to do with the environmental impact of the earth-friendly fuel and more with his ability to pay. "The EPA needs to decide whether they are . an economic control organization or a pollution control systtm," said Leue, an environmental consultant and former operator of the town's wastewater treatment plant. Re shut down his operation this week and laid off two part-time workers. This week the EPA informed him that it would not issue him the -necessary registration to sell the fuel unless he conducted a test of the health effects of his product or joined a national organization that has already conducted such tests. Harvesting spent cooking oil from restaurant grease traps, Leue has for the past tour years transformed it into diesel fuel. He used a former maple sugaring house as his refinery. Alternative fuel advocates say that, while its use doesn't cut down on smog-causing nitrogen oxide, biodiesel produces none of the carbon monoxide or small particles created by traditional petroleum based diesel fuel. This past year Leue started selling the fuel charging $1 more than the market price of petroleum. He said he only recently discovered that he needs to register, and faces stiff fines if he doesn't. He can still make it for himself, and he can still sell the product, but not as fuel. James W. Caldwell, an environmental engineer with the EPA's Washington D.C. Office of Transportation and Air Quality, said Monday Leue has two options. He could conduct involved research on the health effects of the fuel. The test involves burning the fuel in an engine and observing its effects on the lungs of lab animals. His second option would be to join and buy into research already done by the National Biodiesel Board, a Missouri-based consortium of 27 biodiesel producers. "He hasn't gotten registered yet, so he shouldn't have introduced this fuel to vehicles," Caldwell said, adding that Leue is still allowed to sell the fuel for non-road vehicles such as tractors. "I wouldn't say we shut him down," Caldwell said, noting they've taken no enforcement steps. But the alternatives are too costly for him, Leue said. He produced 3,650 gallons of the fuel last year. "It wasn't a profit making venture. It was my mission," he said. He would have had to raise his prices 67 cents on the gallon just to join the group, he said. The health testing cost the Missouri group $2.2,million. To share in the test data, the group feels it's only fair to charge members up to $10,000 a year. As a member producing less than 500,000 gallons, Leue would be charged $2,500 a year, a price he said his operation can't afford either. "We want to be as inclusive as possible," said National Biodiesel Board Executive Director Joseph Jobe. The idea is to allow an organization to do the research without being put at a competitive disadvantage, Caldwell said. Leue had been selling his "Yellow Brand" fuel through Elmer's Store in Ashfield and the Green Fields Market in Greenfield, but he said he would be asking them to take the stock off the shelves. EPA thwarts Ashfield man's effort to sell cleaner diesel fuel By VIRGINIA RAY Recorder Staff and The Associated Press February 15, 2002. ASHFIELD - The business that started as a labor of love to help protect the environment has come to a screeching halt after being refused paperwork by the federal agency charged with doing just that. Thomas Leue has closed his fryer-oil refinery after the Environmental Protection Agency refused to allow him to register his biodiesel fuel and sell it to power vehicles unless he first tests its health effects. "I am out of business of selling fuel
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Who was the small producer and is there a news link to a local paper or something that covered this? MM >There's also been a major thread here on things being made >difficult/impossible for small biodiesel producers in the US unless >they join the National Biodiesel Board and pay big bucks: ie, become >big operators. One small producer has already been forced to stop >production (though he seems to have other plans). > >In fact, though, distributed production already exists, in the form >of the thousands of people all over the US, and the world, who are >making their own biodiesel. Distributed distribution though, that's >another question. Very important one. > >Best wishes > >Keith > >>The green grease >>machine (http://www.veggievan.org/biodiesel/green.html) is one example >>of a modular production unit. One could just place these right at the >>fuel stations and then perhaps let the homeless recycle vegetable oil >>sort of like they do aluminum cans. >> >>Eric >>-- >>http://www.shouldexist.org/ >> >>Trudy Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> > Consumers won't gleefully pay for a more expensive fuel. How >>about using DOE Clean Cities Grants to lower the price in urban >>areas? B100 and B20 is available here in Philadelphia, PA at the >>local fuel terminal. The customers just are not fuel resellers. >>Anyone have an extra fuel tanker to pick it up and distribute to a >>local gas station. The closest B20 station is 350 miles away near >>Boston, and the second closest retail location is 430 miles away >>North of Columbus, OH. > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Keith Addison wrote: > Ken wrote: > > >Keith wrote: > > > > > > > >In fact, though, distributed production already exists, in the form > > >of the thousands of people all over the US, and the world, who are > > >making their own biodiesel. Distributed distribution though, that's > > >another question. Very important one. > > > >Out of curiosity, does anyone know the logistics of fuel ethanol > >production and distribution in Brazil? That might be a typical model, > >since the feedstock is widely distributed and the process is fairly > >low-tech. Is the system down there dominated by a few big agri- > >businesses, aided and protected by the government, or do a lot of > >small farmers and local cottage industries make a significant > >contribution? > > I've heard opinions and reports on both sides of your "or" Ken. I'd > much like to know the real picture. Please, any Brazilians or anyone > who knows more about the ethanol scene in Brazil, steer us at some > good info? My family is from Brasil. None of them speak highly of the ethanol program down there--it displaced subsistence farmers with huge, corporate sugar cane plantations and drove fuel prices higher. Most of the griping I heard comes from complaints that are over 20 years old, so things may have changed since then. My favorite uncle still lives in Curitiba. I will ask him. robert luis rabello Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Ken wrote: >Keith wrote: > > > > >In fact, though, distributed production already exists, in the form > >of the thousands of people all over the US, and the world, who are > >making their own biodiesel. Distributed distribution though, that's > >another question. Very important one. > >Out of curiosity, does anyone know the logistics of fuel ethanol >production and distribution in Brazil? That might be a typical model, >since the feedstock is widely distributed and the process is fairly >low-tech. Is the system down there dominated by a few big agri- >businesses, aided and protected by the government, or do a lot of >small farmers and local cottage industries make a significant >contribution? I've heard opinions and reports on both sides of your "or" Ken. I'd much like to know the real picture. Please, any Brazilians or anyone who knows more about the ethanol scene in Brazil, steer us at some good info? Dick Carlstein did post some stuff here about it a while back, it's in the archives, but methinks he protested rather too loudly and too often and I don't think the picture he painted should be regarded as reliable. Regards Keith Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Keith wrote: > >In fact, though, distributed production already exists, in the form >of the thousands of people all over the US, and the world, who are >making their own biodiesel. Distributed distribution though, that's >another question. Very important one. Out of curiosity, does anyone know the logistics of fuel ethanol production and distribution in Brazil? That might be a typical model, since the feedstock is widely distributed and the process is fairly low-tech. Is the system down there dominated by a few big agri- businesses, aided and protected by the government, or do a lot of small farmers and local cottage industries make a significant contribution? Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Hi Eric >I once read that the price of producing biodiesel is proportional to the >ammount being produced, that is to say its not particularly cost >prohibitive to produce 500 gallons vs 5 million gallons. > >If this is true, how about distributed production? We often discuss that here - local production, community-level projects, bioregionalism etc. Some of us think unless that happens biofuels will be hijacked by the big guys and it'll be like Big Oil all over again. I keep quoting something Steve Spence said here once about this: "It's possible to do anything badly. In 10 years we'll probably be fighting Big Ethanol tooth and nail like we fight Big Oil today." A case in point was the recent ethanol legislation, and, at the same time, ADM being accused of price-rigging. There's also been a major thread here on things being made difficult/impossible for small biodiesel producers in the US unless they join the National Biodiesel Board and pay big bucks: ie, become big operators. One small producer has already been forced to stop production (though he seems to have other plans). In fact, though, distributed production already exists, in the form of the thousands of people all over the US, and the world, who are making their own biodiesel. Distributed distribution though, that's another question. Very important one. Best wishes Keith >The green grease >machine (http://www.veggievan.org/biodiesel/green.html) is one example >of a modular production unit. One could just place these right at the >fuel stations and then perhaps let the homeless recycle vegetable oil >sort of like they do aluminum cans. > >Eric >-- >http://www.shouldexist.org/ > >Trudy Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Consumers won't gleefully pay for a more expensive fuel. How >about using DOE Clean Cities Grants to lower the price in urban >areas? B100 and B20 is available here in Philadelphia, PA at the >local fuel terminal. The customers just are not fuel resellers. >Anyone have an extra fuel tanker to pick it up and distribute to a >local gas station. The closest B20 station is 350 miles away near >Boston, and the second closest retail location is 430 miles away >North of Columbus, OH. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Buy Stock for $4 and no minimums. FREE Money 2002. http://us.click.yahoo.com/orkH0C/n97DAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Eric Hanson wrote: > I've read some conflicting information about whether or not biofuel is > cost-viable at this stage. Some say it's cheaper, some say no. Is ethanol energy-efficient? http://journeytoforever.org/ethanol_energy.html Converting cellulose to ethanol increases the net energy balance of ethanol compared to converting corn to ethanol. The net energy balance is calculated by subtracting the energy required to produce a gallon of ethanol from the energy contained in a gallon of ethanol (approximately 76,000 Btu). Corn-based ethanol has a net energy balance of 20,000 to 25,000 Btu per gallon, where as cellulosic ethanol has a net energy balance of more than 60,000 Btu per gallon.31 [ Page 7 of 14, 180K ] http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/analysispaper/pdf/biomass.pdf PDF Biodiesel and petroleum diesel production processes are almost equally efficient at converting raw energy resources (in this case, petroleum or soybean oil) into fuels. Biodieselâs advantage is that its largest raw resource (soy oil) is renewable. So biodiesel requires less fossil energy (only 0.31 units) to make a 1 unit of fuel. By contrast, society uses 1.2 units of fossil resources to produce 1 unit of petroleum diesel. Such measures confirm the ãrenewableä nature of biodiesel. "An Overview of Biodiesel and Petroleum Diesel Life Cycles" May, 1998[ 60pg. PDF ] http://www.ott.doe.gov/biofuels/newsearchdb2.cgi?3812 > The major US producer of biofuels, NOPEC (now Oceanair Environmental) > has a 10 million gallon/year production facility, is biodiesel commercially > available in Florida? Is biofuel ready for the pumps? Not sure and yes > U.S. Maps Showing Alternative Fuel Stations http://www.afdc.doe.gov/refuel/usmaps.html > What are the major hurdles to be > crossed before Joe citizen can drive up to some public station and > choose biodiesel instead of fossil fuel based diesel? US farm and now US energy policy including a federal Renewable Fuels Standard (RFS) hopefully. "See how the national renewable energy standard can benefit your region and state." http://www.ucsusa.org/energy/renewhere.html > Who are some of the leaders in this effort, Commercially: http://www.biodiesel.org http://www.ethanolrfa.org State - Minnesota (ethanol legislation & state distribution) http://www.me3.org U.S. Ethanol Production Facilities http://www.ohiocorn.org/ethanol_about_usfacilities.htm > and what are they up to? Lobbying for a change or business as usual. While visiting Union of Concerned Scientists at "Renewable Energy and Agriculture: A Natural Fit" http://www.ucsusa.org/energy/fact_overview.html and enjoyed reading a 2pg. PDF entitled Related Links > "Growing Energy on the Farm" with many interesting goings on - excerpt: "Other biogas applications are still in development, but show great potential. One promising technology is direct combustion in an advanced gas turbine to run a generator and produce electricity. This process is twice as efficient as simply burning raw biomass to produce electricity from steam. Researchers are also developing small, high-speed generators to run on biogas. These ãmicroturbinesä have no more than three moving parts and are as small as 30 kilowatts, which could operate a medium-sized farm. Several companies are also considering converting gasified biomass into ethanol as a less expensive alternative to fermentation." Hoped this helped some. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
I once read that the price of producing biodiesel is proportional to the ammount being produced, that is to say its not particularly cost prohibitive to produce 500 gallons vs 5 million gallons. If this is true, how about distributed production? The green grease machine (http://www.veggievan.org/biodiesel/green.html) is one example of a modular production unit. One could just place these right at the fuel stations and then perhaps let the homeless recycle vegetable oil sort of like they do aluminum cans. Eric -- http://www.shouldexist.org/ Trudy Williams ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Consumers won't gleefully pay for a more expensive fuel. How about using DOE > Clean Cities Grants to lower the price in urban areas? B100 and B20 is > available here in Philadelphia, PA at the local fuel terminal. The customers > just are not fuel resellers. Anyone have an extra fuel tanker to pick it up > and distribute to a local gas station. The closest B20 station is 350 miles > away near Boston, and the second closest retail location is 430 miles away > North of Columbus, OH. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
On Mon, 20 May 2002 00:51:32 -0400, you wrote: >Consumers won't gleefully pay for a more expensive fuel. How about using DOE >Clean Cities Grants to lower the price in urban areas? B100 and B20 is >available here in Philadelphia, PA at the local fuel terminal. The customers >just are not fuel resellers. Anyone have an extra fuel tanker to pick it up >and distribute to a local gas station. The closest B20 station is 350 miles >away near Boston, and the second closest retail location is 430 miles away >North of Columbus, OH. > >Greg There is a Ford Dealer in San Diego which has claimed to be close to setting up an alternative fuels center for a couple of years now. I think they are nearing some achievement of that. When they do, I think they will sell some biofuels alongside other innovative fuels. Pearson Ford. In the meantime, this lack of distribution of product is a big problem. Went to Arco in San Diego this weekend at Rosecrans and Lytton: No Ethanol mixed with the gas, only MTBE (per the label). Not that BP-Amoco promised instant ethanol fulfillment across the state, but a little disappointing. On the plus side, ARCO charges a little less for gas partly by separating out the fees inherent to credit cards. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> FREE COLLEGE MONEY CLICK HERE to search 600,000 scholarships! http://us.click.yahoo.com/DlIU9C/4m7CAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
How about getting a biodiesel fuel producer whose feedstocks are traditional rendering products, rather than virgin soybean oil? That will cut your pump price by about $0.50 US, unless they are elevating their "pipeline price" to match their soybean counterparts. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Trudy Williams <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Monday, May 20, 2002 12:51 AM Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > Consumers won't gleefully pay for a more expensive fuel. How about using DOE Clean Cities Grants to lower the price in urban areas? B100 and B20 is available here in Philadelphia, PA at the local fuel terminal. The customers just are not fuel resellers. Anyone have an extra fuel tanker to pick it up and distribute to a local gas station. The closest B20 station is 350 miles away near Boston, and the second closest retail location is 430 miles away North of Columbus, OH. > > Greg > > -- Original Message -- > From: "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 15:26:19 -0400 > > > > > > > > > > >there are a half a dozen pumps already around the us that sell b100. even > >more selling bx (10 to 30). some places sell ethanol blends of various > >amounts. > > > >it's more expensive than gasoline at the pump, but makes a lot of sense in > >many other ways. > > > > > >Steve Spence > >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: > >http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm";>http://www.webconx.co m/subscribe.htm > > > >Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/";>http://www.webconx.dns2go.c om/ > >Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - > >http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm";>http://w ww.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > >- Original Message - > >From: "Eric Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > >To: > >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:12 PM > >Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > > > > > >> Keith Addison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > >> > Hello Eric > >> > > >> > >My name is Eric Hanson, I help out with ShouldExist.org, a virtual > >think > >> > >tank about ideas to make the world a better place. We're having a > >> > >brainstorm about what it takes to get biofuels at the pumps and into > >the > >> > >mainstream, and I was wondering if the folks in this group might be > >able > >> > >to shed some light for those of us who are new to the biofuel cause. > >> > > >> > I'm sure we could, yes. Why don't you bring 'em over here? > >> > >> Okay, I've posted a link to this list. Specifically, here's the > >> question. > >> > >> I've read some conflicting information about whether or not biofuel is > >> cost-viable at this stage. Some say it's cheaper, some say no. The > >> major US producer of biofuels, NOPEC (now Oceanair Environmental) has a > >> 10 million gallon/year production facility, is biodiesel commercially > >> available in Florida? > >> > >> Is biofuel ready for the pumps? What are the major hurdles to be > >> crossed before Joe citizen can drive up to some public station and > >> choose biodiesel instead of fossil fuel based diesel? Who are some of > >> the leaders in this effort, and what are they up to? > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Eric > >> > >> > >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > >> http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html";>http://journeytof orever.org/biofuel.html > >> > >> Biofuels list archives: > >> http://archive.nnytech.net/";>http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >> > >> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > >> To unsubscribe, send an email to: > >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/";>http://docs.yahoo.com/in fo/terms/ > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > > > > > > > > > >ADVERTISEMENThttp://rd.yahoo.com/M=178320.2057063.3524709.1829184/D=egro upweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=979989/R=0/*http://www.fastweb.com/ib/yah oo-79f">http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/fa/fastweb/300x250.gif"; alt="" width="
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Consumers won't gleefully pay for a more expensive fuel. How about using DOE Clean Cities Grants to lower the price in urban areas? B100 and B20 is available here in Philadelphia, PA at the local fuel terminal. The customers just are not fuel resellers. Anyone have an extra fuel tanker to pick it up and distribute to a local gas station. The closest B20 station is 350 miles away near Boston, and the second closest retail location is 430 miles away North of Columbus, OH. Greg -- Original Message -- From: "steve spence" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Date: Sun, 19 May 2002 15:26:19 -0400 > > > > >there are a half a dozen pumps already around the us that sell b100. even >more selling bx (10 to 30). some places sell ethanol blends of various >amounts. > >it's more expensive than gasoline at the pump, but makes a lot of sense in >many other ways. > > >Steve Spence >Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: >href="http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm";>http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm > >Renewable Energy Pages - href="http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/";>http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ >Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - >href="http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm";>http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm >[EMAIL PROTECTED] >- Original Message - >From: "Eric Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: >Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:12 PM >Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > > >> Keith Addison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: >> > Hello Eric >> > >> > >My name is Eric Hanson, I help out with ShouldExist.org, a virtual >think >> > >tank about ideas to make the world a better place. We're having a >> > >brainstorm about what it takes to get biofuels at the pumps and into >the >> > >mainstream, and I was wondering if the folks in this group might be >able >> > >to shed some light for those of us who are new to the biofuel cause. >> > >> > I'm sure we could, yes. Why don't you bring 'em over here? >> >> Okay, I've posted a link to this list. Specifically, here's the >> question. >> >> I've read some conflicting information about whether or not biofuel is >> cost-viable at this stage. Some say it's cheaper, some say no. The >> major US producer of biofuels, NOPEC (now Oceanair Environmental) has a >> 10 million gallon/year production facility, is biodiesel commercially >> available in Florida? >> >> Is biofuel ready for the pumps? What are the major hurdles to be >> crossed before Joe citizen can drive up to some public station and >> choose biodiesel instead of fossil fuel based diesel? Who are some of >> the leaders in this effort, and what are they up to? >> >> Thanks, >> Eric >> >> >> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >> > href="http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html";>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html >> >> Biofuels list archives: >> http://archive.nnytech.net/";>http://archive.nnytech.net/ >> >> Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. >> To unsubscribe, send an email to: >> [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/";>http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ >> >> >> > > > > > > > > > >Yahoo! Groups >Sponsor > > > > >ADVERTISEMENThref="http://rd.yahoo.com/M=178320.2057063.3524709.1829184/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=979989/R=0/*http://www.fastweb.com/ib/yahoo-79f";> src="http://us.a1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/a/fa/fastweb/300x250.gif"; alt="" >width="300" height="250" border="0"> > > > >src="http://us.adserver.yahoo.com/l?M=178320.2057063.3524709.1829184/D=egroupmail/S=1705083269:HM/A=979989/rand=724217167";> > > > > > > > >Biofuel at Journey to Forever: >href="http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html";>http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > >Biofuels list archives: >http://archive.nnytech.net/";>http://archive.nnytech.net/ > >Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. >To unsubscribe, send an email to: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the href="http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/";>Yahoo! Terms of Service. > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
there are a half a dozen pumps already around the us that sell b100. even more selling bx (10 to 30). some places sell ethanol blends of various amounts. it's more expensive than gasoline at the pump, but makes a lot of sense in many other ways. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter: http://www.webconx.com/subscribe.htm Renewable Energy Pages - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/ Human powered devices, equipment, and transport - http://www.webconx.dns2go.com/2000/humanpower.htm [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: "Eric Hanson" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Sent: Sunday, May 19, 2002 3:12 PM Subject: Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps > Keith Addison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Hello Eric > > > > >My name is Eric Hanson, I help out with ShouldExist.org, a virtual think > > >tank about ideas to make the world a better place. We're having a > > >brainstorm about what it takes to get biofuels at the pumps and into the > > >mainstream, and I was wondering if the folks in this group might be able > > >to shed some light for those of us who are new to the biofuel cause. > > > > I'm sure we could, yes. Why don't you bring 'em over here? > > Okay, I've posted a link to this list. Specifically, here's the > question. > > I've read some conflicting information about whether or not biofuel is > cost-viable at this stage. Some say it's cheaper, some say no. The > major US producer of biofuels, NOPEC (now Oceanair Environmental) has a > 10 million gallon/year production facility, is biodiesel commercially > available in Florida? > > Is biofuel ready for the pumps? What are the major hurdles to be > crossed before Joe citizen can drive up to some public station and > choose biodiesel instead of fossil fuel based diesel? Who are some of > the leaders in this effort, and what are they up to? > > Thanks, > Eric > > > Biofuel at Journey to Forever: > http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html > > Biofuels list archives: > http://archive.nnytech.net/ > > Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. > To unsubscribe, send an email to: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Keith Addison ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Hello Eric > > >My name is Eric Hanson, I help out with ShouldExist.org, a virtual think > >tank about ideas to make the world a better place. We're having a > >brainstorm about what it takes to get biofuels at the pumps and into the > >mainstream, and I was wondering if the folks in this group might be able > >to shed some light for those of us who are new to the biofuel cause. > > I'm sure we could, yes. Why don't you bring 'em over here? Okay, I've posted a link to this list. Specifically, here's the question. I've read some conflicting information about whether or not biofuel is cost-viable at this stage. Some say it's cheaper, some say no. The major US producer of biofuels, NOPEC (now Oceanair Environmental) has a 10 million gallon/year production facility, is biodiesel commercially available in Florida? Is biofuel ready for the pumps? What are the major hurdles to be crossed before Joe citizen can drive up to some public station and choose biodiesel instead of fossil fuel based diesel? Who are some of the leaders in this effort, and what are they up to? Thanks, Eric Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] biofuel at the pumps
Hello Eric >My name is Eric Hanson, I help out with ShouldExist.org, a virtual think >tank about ideas to make the world a better place. We're having a >brainstorm about what it takes to get biofuels at the pumps and into the >mainstream, and I was wondering if the folks in this group might be able >to shed some light for those of us who are new to the biofuel cause. I'm sure we could, yes. Why don't you bring 'em over here? Keith >The brainstorm is at > >http://www.shouldexist.org/story/2002/5/2/52730/40886 > >Thanks, >Eric Hanson >shouldexist.org Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~--> Take the Yahoo! Groups survey for a chance to win $1,000. Your opinion is very important to us! http://us.click.yahoo.com/NOFBfD/uAJEAA/Ey.GAA/FGYolB/TM -~-> Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send "unsubscribe" messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
