Re: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
Todd, Thanks for the thoughts. I had totally ignored the left over moisture from the washing on the next reaction batch. A follow up thought: If the reaction is complete (say with an acid/base process) would not pump mixing be just or more effective than mist or bubble washing? Even though the motor would take more power, wouldn't the wash occur more rapidly leaving the energy balance a wash? Steve --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, There are a number of good reasons to not use a reactor as a wash vessel. 1) Water contamination during reaction stages. 2) Expended time evacuating a reactor of all water prior to reaction stages. 3) Undersized vessel for water washes. (110 gallon reactor yields ~91 gallons fuel, leaving only enough room for 19 gallons of water, erego the introduction of flush washing, aka mist washing) 4) Mist washing in such a set-up generally doesn't include separation/settling of micro-droplets of fuel from the wash water, leaving some fuel to be discarded with the wash. Could probably come up with another half-dozen associated/downstream problems. But those are the predominant ones. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches From steven mesibov: FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches Keith, Todd, et. al., I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods and on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly that it just occurred to me: Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial mixing? Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would certainly save on having another large container for small operations. Steve --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Brian Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, Good for you! but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find anything online particular to small batches, but I have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too violent and cause emulsification. People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest for ever-gentler washing methods (eg mist washing) have taken a wrong turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the real problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the first place, they need to improve their processing. Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. It's caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what you should be aiming for. See Emulsification and Emulsion Explained here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, unwashed fuel and do this with it: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Let us know what happens. Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer as the valve for drainage. This turns any PET bottle into a separative funnel. It takes a little practice to get the valve to trickle properly, but it does work superbly. More details on how that works here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/13265/ You know those pop-up caps? Maybe made for cyclists or something. We've used something a little different (I think), a screw-on pop-up cap with a straw through the middle that goes right down to the bottom of the bottle, with an air-inlet gap around the straw, and the cap closing both the straw and the air-inlet. Do your bubblewash, remove the air-stone and air-pipe from the pump, screw on the pop-up cap, turn the bottle upside down and allow to settle. To drain off the settled water, hold the bottle (still upside down) over the sink or something, lift the cap; the water comes out the air-inlet gap, air goes up the straw to the top (bottom) of the bottle, and draining is smooth without any glug-glugging that'll splash and prevent a clean separation. If you can't find something like this you could easily rig it with some thin air-pipe and epoxy putty. If you can't find an air-stone small enough to fit the neck of the PET
Re: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
This email response seems to have gotton lost in the wash ;-) so I figured I send it again. Steve Todd, Thanks for the thoughts. I had totally ignored the left over moisture from the washing on the next reaction batch. A follow up thought: If the reaction is complete (say with an acid/base process) would not pump mixing be just or more effective than mist or bubble washing? Even though the motor would take more power, wouldn't the wash occur more rapidly leaving the energy balance a wash? Steve --- Appal Energy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve, There are a number of good reasons to not use a reactor as a wash vessel. 1) Water contamination during reaction stages. 2) Expended time evacuating a reactor of all water prior to reaction stages. 3) Undersized vessel for water washes. (110 gallon reactor yields ~91 gallons fuel, leaving only enough room for 19 gallons of water, erego the introduction of flush washing, aka mist washing) 4) Mist washing in such a set-up generally doesn't include separation/settling of micro-droplets of fuel from the wash water, leaving some fuel to be discarded with the wash. Could probably come up with another half-dozen associated/downstream problems. But those are the predominant ones. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches From steven mesibov: FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches Keith, Todd, et. al., I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods and on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly that it just occurred to me: Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial mixing? Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would certainly save on having another large container for small operations. Steve --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Brian Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, Good for you! but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find anything online particular to small batches, but I have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too violent and cause emulsification. People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest for ever-gentler washing methods (eg mist washing) have taken a wrong turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the real problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the first place, they need to improve their processing. Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. It's caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what you should be aiming for. See Emulsification and Emulsion Explained here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, unwashed fuel and do this with it: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Let us know what happens. Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer as the valve for drainage. This turns any PET bottle into a separative funnel. It takes a little practice to get the valve to trickle properly, but it does work superbly. More details on how that works here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/13265/ You know those pop-up caps? Maybe made for cyclists or something. We've used something a little different (I think), a screw-on pop-up cap with a straw through the middle that goes right down to the bottom of the bottle, with an air-inlet gap around the straw, and the cap closing both the straw and the air-inlet. Do your bubblewash, remove the air-stone and air-pipe from the pump, screw on the pop-up cap, turn the bottle upside down and allow to settle. To drain off the settled water, hold the bottle (still upside down) over the sink or something, lift the cap; the water comes out the air-inlet gap, air goes up the straw to the top (bottom) of the bottle, and draining is smooth without any glug-glugging that'll splash and prevent a clean separation. If you can't find something like this you could easily rig it with some thin
Re: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches
Steve, There are a number of good reasons to not use a reactor as a wash vessel. 1) Water contamination during reaction stages. 2) Expended time evacuating a reactor of all water prior to reaction stages. 3) Undersized vessel for water washes. (110 gallon reactor yields ~91 gallons fuel, leaving only enough room for 19 gallons of water, erego the introduction of flush washing, aka mist washing) 4) Mist washing in such a set-up generally doesn't include separation/settling of micro-droplets of fuel from the wash water, leaving some fuel to be discarded with the wash. Could probably come up with another half-dozen associated/downstream problems. But those are the predominant ones. Todd Swearingen - Original Message - From: Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, June 18, 2004 11:33 PM Subject: Fwd: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches From steven mesibov: FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] DATE: Fri, 18 Jun 2004 06:19:32 -0700 (PDT) SUBJECT: Re: [biofuel] Washing 1 liter batches Keith, Todd, et. al., I have read so much on the need for washing and the different methods and on the fact that violent washing is okay if you process correctly that it just occurred to me: Why not use the reaction vessel for washing as well as the initial mixing? Would pump washing (especially if you used something like Lyle's at Piedmont Static In-Line Mixer by KoFlo) be acceptable? It would certainly save on having another large container for small operations. Steve --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hello Brian Hello. I am just starting in the production of my own biodiesel. I have made several 1 liter test batches, Good for you! but I'm not sure how to wash them. I can't find anything online particular to small batches, but I have found sources that say bubblewashing will be too violent and cause emulsification. People who say bubblewashing's too violent and set off on a quest for ever-gentler washing methods (eg mist washing) have taken a wrong turn before they start. Gentle washing techniques only mask the real problem, which is that the stuff isn't processed properly in the first place, they need to improve their processing. Emulsification doesn't normally happen with well-processed fuel. It's caused by either (or probably both) too much soap and poor conversion, leaving diglycerides and monoglycerides, which are emulsifiers. If your fuel's properly made you won't be able to emulsify it no matter how violently you agitate it. That is what you should be aiming for. See Emulsification and Emulsion Explained here: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_bubblewash2.html#emuls So, some suggestions. First, take about 150ml of your finished, unwashed fuel and do this with it: Quality testing http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_vehicle.html#quality Let us know what happens. Second, you can bubblewash it, in a 2-litre PET bottle. From Todd: You can use the pop-up cap found on water bottles at your grocer as the valve for drainage. This turns any PET bottle into a separative funnel. It takes a little practice to get the valve to trickle properly, but it does work superbly. More details on how that works here: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/BIOFUEL/13265/ You know those pop-up caps? Maybe made for cyclists or something. We've used something a little different (I think), a screw-on pop-up cap with a straw through the middle that goes right down to the bottom of the bottle, with an air-inlet gap around the straw, and the cap closing both the straw and the air-inlet. Do your bubblewash, remove the air-stone and air-pipe from the pump, screw on the pop-up cap, turn the bottle upside down and allow to settle. To drain off the settled water, hold the bottle (still upside down) over the sink or something, lift the cap; the water comes out the air-inlet gap, air goes up the straw to the top (bottom) of the bottle, and draining is smooth without any glug-glugging that'll splash and prevent a clean separation. If you can't find something like this you could easily rig it with some thin air-pipe and epoxy putty. If you can't find an air-stone small enough to fit the neck of the PET bottle, cut the neck off; when the wash is finished decant it all into another PET bottle and use the pop-up cap as above. HTH Best wishes Keith Will someone share a success story? Thank you, Brian Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://infoarchive.net/sgroup/biofuel/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yahoo! Groups Links Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
