[svg-developers] Re: Re: Re: tool tips --on mouse over
that's preposterous, in terms of accessibility the SVG1.1 spec is broken. Certainly, but you keep bringing back specific discussions, about specific things, to the general SVG accessibility as a whole is broken. We were specifically discussing tooltips, nothing more. In no case does the number of user agents have anything to do with the matter. Of course it does, writing a whole load of crap javascript does not improve accessibility, never, rather than taking what I write to be about the thing I'm writing about - tooltips - you decide to extend what I write to everywhere They may well be a minority, but serving minorities is the meaning of accessibility. No it's not! accessibility is not about authors increasing their authoring costs hundreds of percent simply to work around bugs in user agents and specification, if you have a particular desire to support certain user agents, then it's down to you when you do it, however to criticise Dougs example because it didn't work in Mozilla SVG was extremely misleading when your example didn't work in Ikivo, Bitflash (and maybe even tinyline) whereas Dougs did. They're released shipping players used by thousands of people, Mozilla SVG certainly is not that. Supporting mozilla SVG can well be worthwhile but not at the expense of other user agents, and certainly don't expect others to go out of there way to work around its bugs/limitations, as it's pre-beta product, and those limitations and bugs will soon be fixed. The SMIL solution for tooltips is a very good one, much better than the script one, for a large number of reasons. Your contribution to the mozSVG accessibility bug team is awaited. I do not use mozilla, so I won't be finding bugs in it, I find the interface annoying as a browser, I'm doing what I can to aid the project though as you well know. Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Re: Re: tool tips --on mouse over
Jim Schepers, the SMIL tooltips example code uses mouseover and mouseout, almost by definition that can't be good accessibility because it is device dependent. please see hixie's bug #273197 where mozSVG may be supporting tab. assuming users can tab to these graphics, which is by no means clear, as they are not links... they will not currently see the tooltips. for asv3, this wont be a concern, as they also can't tab :-) It would be very much easier if authoring tools arranged these matters for us, in the meantime... we are obliged to consider how they might. regards Jonathan Chetwynd http://www.peepo.co.uk It's easy to use irc://freenode/accessibility On 5 Dec 2004, at 16:43, Jim Ley wrote: that's preposterous, in terms of accessibility the SVG1.1 spec is broken. Certainly, but you keep bringing back specific discussions, about specific things, to the general SVG accessibility as a whole is broken. We were specifically discussing tooltips, nothing more. In no case does the number of user agents have anything to do with the matter. Of course it does, writing a whole load of crap javascript does not improve accessibility, never, rather than taking what I write to be about the thing I'm writing about - tooltips - you decide to extend what I write to everywhere They may well be a minority, but serving minorities is the meaning of accessibility. No it's not! accessibility is not about authors increasing their authoring costs hundreds of percent simply to work around bugs in user agents and specification, if you have a particular desire to support certain user agents, then it's down to you when you do it, however to criticise Dougs example because it didn't work in Mozilla SVG was extremely misleading when your example didn't work in Ikivo, Bitflash (and maybe even tinyline) whereas Dougs did. They're released shipping players used by thousands of people, Mozilla SVG certainly is not that. Supporting mozilla SVG can well be worthwhile but not at the expense of other user agents, and certainly don't expect others to go out of there way to work around its bugs/limitations, as it's pre-beta product, and those limitations and bugs will soon be fixed. The SMIL solution for tooltips is a very good one, much better than the script one, for a large number of reasons. Your contribution to the mozSVG accessibility bug team is awaited. I do not use mozilla, so I won't be finding bugs in it, I find the interface annoying as a browser, I'm doing what I can to aid the project though as you well know. Jim. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT lrec_companion_043004.gif l.gif Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[svg-developers] Re: Re: Re: tool tips --on mouse over
Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you read the bug report which I drew your attention to it mentions UAG: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/guidelines.html#gl-device-independence specifically the first guideline makes it clear, that if you choose to render a tooltip this should be device independent. It could not be much clearer. You do not have to render a tooltip, but if you do Doug is an author, he doesn't have any reason to follow the _User Agent_ authoring guidelines, authors are free to do whatever they like, giving extra functionality to any users they like, there's nothing inaccessible about it. Jim. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- $4.98 domain names from Yahoo!. Register anything. http://us.click.yahoo.com/Q7_YsB/neXJAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [svg-developers] Re: Re: Re: tool tips --on mouse over
Jim, I refer you to WCAG 1.0 and WCAG 2.0 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#keyboard-operation Guideline 2.1 Make all functionality operable via a keyboard or a keyboard interface. http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG10/#gl-device-independence ? 9.2 Ensure that any element that has its own interface can be operated in a device-independent manner. [Priority 2] Refer to the definition of device independence. Refer also to guideline 8. Techniques for checkpoint 9.2 9.3 For scripts, specify logical event handlers rather than device-dependent event handlers. [Priority 2] Techniques for checkpoint 9.3 (whilst Doug's code uses declarative animation rather than script these checkpoints would be relevant.) If you believe that W3 has published accessibility guidelines that support your position, please point to them. regards Jonathan Chetwynd http://www.peepo.co.uk It's easy to use irc://freenode/accessibility On 5 Dec 2004, at 20:36, Jim Ley wrote: Jonathan Chetwynd [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you read the bug report which I drew your attention to it mentions UAG: http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG10/guidelines.html#gl-device-independence specifically the first guideline makes it clear, that if you choose to render a tooltip this should be device independent. It could not be much clearer. You do not have to render a tooltip, but if you do Doug is an author, he doesn't have any reason to follow the _User Agent_ authoring guidelines, authors are free to do whatever they like, giving extra functionality to any users they like, there's nothing inaccessible about it. Jim. - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT 111704_1104_g_300250a.gif l.gif Yahoo! Groups Links To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ~-- Make a clean sweep of pop-up ads. Yahoo! Companion Toolbar. Now with Pop-Up Blocker. Get it for free! http://us.click.yahoo.com/L5YrjA/eSIIAA/yQLSAA/1U_rlB/TM ~- - To unsubscribe send a message to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -or- visit http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers and click edit my membership Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/svg-developers/ * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
