Re: [swift-users] for with optional collection?

[David Hart via swift-users]

someOptionalCollection?.forEach { item in
}

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 22:48, Marco S Hyman via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Rick Mann via swift-users 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Is there any concise way to write the following?
>> 
>> if let collection = someOptionalCollection
>> {
>>   for item in collection
>>   {
>>   }
>> }
> 
> someOptionalCollection?.map {
>/* do something with $0 /*
> }
> 
> 
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted Kremenek via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:09 PM, Matthew Johnson  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek > > wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>>> mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
>>> 
 I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
 realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
 followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision 
 was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
>>> 
>>> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
>>> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had 
>>> been voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into 
>>> that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people 
>>> felt like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in 
>>> reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.
>> 
>> Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will 
>> be paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because that was 
>> evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of 
>> opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something important 
>> that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We want to do 
>> the right thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the 
>> right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still 
>> participate effectively via email.
> 
> Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email experience 
> of using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I agree that 
> this sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what the email 
> experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week or so.

I need to formalize a plan, but yes I’d like to trial this somehow.  Nate Cook 
created a staged installation of Discourse when the thread on swift-evolution 
was happening and there was some useful telemetry out of that experiment (such 
as how rich text email interacted with doing inline replies).  Moving to 
Discourse (or some alternate forum software if we decide Discourse is not a 
fit) would be a staged thing.  The main question to me is how do we do a 
meaningful trial without actually doing the real discussions in the forum 
(while the mailing lists are still running).___
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Matthew Johnson via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 6:04 PM, Ted Kremenek  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>> mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
>> 
>>> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
>>> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
>>> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision 
>>> was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
>> 
>> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
>> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had 
>> been voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into 
>> that thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people 
>> felt like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in 
>> reaction to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.
> 
> Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will 
> be paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because that was 
> evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of 
> opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something important 
> that was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We want to do 
> the right thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the 
> right choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still 
> participate effectively via email.

Is there any way to have a trial run so we can evaluate the email experience of 
using the forum software before we make the final switch?  I agree that this 
sounds like the right direction, but it’s hard to know what the email 
experience will really be like until we give it a try for a week or so.___
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted Kremenek via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:52 PM, Ted Kremenek via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
>> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t 
>> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have 
>> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision 
>> was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
> 
> FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
> signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had been 
> voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into that 
> thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people felt 
> like they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in reaction 
> to this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.

Just to add to this point — new insights on this topic are welcome, and will be 
paid attention to.  The decision to change to a forum is because that was 
evaluated as being the best thing for the community, based on the range of 
opinions provided and the tradeoffs made.  If there is something important that 
was missed, obviously that is not going to be ignored.  We want to do the right 
thing.  So far I still feel that moving to a forum software is the right 
choice, but I’d like to do that in a way that allows people to still 
participate effectively via email.___
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Ted Kremenek via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 9:30 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users 
>> mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>>> mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
>>> good mailing list support, too.
>> 
>> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took 
>> a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter 
>> that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much 
>> visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed 
>> by a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but 
>> I’ve worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working 
>> on stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the 
>> field.
>> 
>> I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org  
>> switches to needs to have good email support. That way the people who hate 
>> the web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can 
>> keep using email as we do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, 
>> groups.io  is a good example. 
>> 
>> Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to 
>> make its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I 
>> have admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so 
>> I’ve looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and 
>> some of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
>> 
>> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has 
>> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.
> 
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
> it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
> proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
> considered and this was our chance to offer input.  

FWIW, I am not ignoring this thread.  At some point there was diminishing 
signal on the thread, and it felt like the category of opinions that had been 
voiced had been vocalized on the thread.  Looping in swift-users into that 
thread would have been a good thing to do in hindsight so more people felt like 
they had a chance to participate.  Based on what I am seeing in reaction to 
this decision, however, I’m not seeing much new signal.

> 
> I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.  If 
> I knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a closer 
> look at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be disappointed if 
> the experience of participating is not at least as good as it is using email.

This opinion was also eloquently voiced on the swift-evolution thread, and FWIW 
it is one that holds weight.  I really want to strike a good balance here so we 
do what is best for the overall community.  The reality is that we are pivoting 
from one technology to another, and with a web forum naturally the prime 
experience is in that forum.  Email will likely feel “second class” to some 
degree simply because it, by design, is not the primary interaction model for 
forum software like Discourse.  That doesn’t mean the email experience has to 
be terrible.  Ideally it is good experience so that people who want to continue 
to use email for participation can continue to do so.

> 
> One of the most important reasons I like using email is that Mail offers a 
> great experience on iPhone and iPad.  I am skeptical that a web-based forum 
> could offer the same level of convenience and efficiency for keeping up with 
> the community that email provides.

Email unfortunately provides an uneven experience across clients, including the 
support for threading, what kind of content authorship affordances provided, 
and so forth.  I totally get what you are saying though, being someone who uses 
Mail in the same way.


> 
> I hope that we do find a way to configure our tool (probably Discourse) so 
> that the email experience on iPhone and iPad does not suffer.  If we can meet 
> that criteria and *also* offer the advantages of a web-based tool I will be 
> very happy.  But I think the current email experience on iPhone and iPad 
> should set a minimum criteria that any tool must meet.

This is something I’m interested in achieving as well.  There are a lot of 
tradeoffs here, and I suspect what we end up with will be tradeoffs that will 
be highly subjective from person to person.  The “does not suffer” is hard to 
qualify, at least objectively, because it likely will be *different* from what 
we have now.

> 
>> 
>> —Jens
>> ___
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[swift-users] So how do you implement a NSTextStorage subclass in Swift?

[Michel Fortin via swift-users]

The `string` property of `NSTextStorage` is of type `String`, but the contract 
it must implement is that it should return the backing store of the attributed 
string (the underlying `NSMutableString` used as the backing store). It seems 
to me that this makes it impossible to implement correctly a subclass of 
`NSTextStorage` in Swift, because Swift automatically wraps the `NSString` into 
a `String` and the underlying mutable storage is not passed around.

Here's the documentation for that method:
https://developer.apple.com/reference/foundation/nsattributedstring/1412616-string

In case the contract isn't clear from the documentation (it wasn't for me), I 
got a confirmation as a response in radar 30314719:
> It’s returning a copy of the backing store, but the contract is actually 
> returning the backing store string. The copy storage declaration in the 
> property spec is only used for setter implementation.

So looks like this is impossible to model correctly in Swift due to the 
automatic bridging to `String`. Some APIs in AppKit expect the `NSString` they 
receive to mutate when mutating the text storage (touch bar suggestions in 
`NSTextView`) and will do bad things this isn't the case.

Obviously, I can work around this by writing some Objective-C code, but it'd be 
better if I could avoid splitting the class implementation between two 
languages. There's another way using swizzling to map the Objective-C method to 
a Swift implementation of the same method that has the correct signature, and 
that's probably what I'll end up doing unless a better solution can be pointed 
out to me.


-- 
Michel Fortin
https://michelf.ca

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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Joshua Alvarado via swift-users]

The decision to move from the mailing list may have surprised many but the
discussion on it has been ongoing very strong. Sorry you feel like you
didn't get to voice your opinion which I believe everyone should have the
opportunity to. I think many agree that email has it's perks on iPhone and
iPad but many have advocated for Disclosure because a way to improve  the
Swift community's communication. It is very hard to please every person in
the community with each change but as a community we should support each
other in the discussions and decisions that are put forth (agreeing or
not). I believe we can find a way to get the experience with Disclosure.
Get it best for iPhone and iPad users, as well as email support and those
who want to just use Disclosure only. This may not all happen at once but
it will come as we progress.

On Thu, Feb 9, 2017 at 10:30 AM, Matthew Johnson via swift-evolution <
swift-evolut...@swift.org> wrote:

>
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users <
> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>
>
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users <
> swift-users@swift.org> wrote:
>
> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/ that has good mailing list
> support, too.
>
>
> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I
> took a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful
> clutter that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so
> much visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly
> designed by a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI
> designer, but I’ve worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years
> at Apple working on stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have
> some grounding in the field.
>
> I do believe, though, that *whatever solution swift.org
>  switches to needs to have good email support*. That
> way the people who hate the web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web
> for discussions, can keep using email as we do today. This is perfectly
> feasible to do; again, groups.io is a good example.
>
> Here my concern is that *I have not found a way to configure Discourse to
> make its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list.*
> I have admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so
> I’ve looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and
> some of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
>
> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has
> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.
>
>
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t
> realize it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have
> followed the proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision
> was being considered and this was our chance to offer input.
>
> I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.
> If I knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a
> closer look at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be
> disappointed if the experience of participating is not at least as good as
> it is using email.
>
> One of the most important reasons I like using email is that Mail offers a
> great experience on iPhone and iPad.  I am skeptical that a web-based forum
> could offer the same level of convenience and efficiency for keeping up
> with the community that email provides.
>
> I hope that we do find a way to configure our tool (probably Discourse) so
> that the email experience on iPhone and iPad does not suffer.  If we can
> meet that criteria and *also* offer the advantages of a web-based tool I
> will be very happy.  But I think the current email experience on iPhone and
> iPad should set a minimum criteria that any tool must meet.
>
>
> —Jens
> ___
> swift-users mailing list
> swift-users@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users
>
>
>
> ___
> swift-evolution mailing list
> swift-evolut...@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
>
>


-- 
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alvaradojosh...@gmail.com
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Re: [swift-users] for with optional collection?

[Rick Mann via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 13:31 , Saagar Jha  wrote:
> 
> for item in someOptionalCollection ?? [] {
>   item.doSomething()
> }
> 

Thanks, this is probably the closest. Sadly I can't seem to test downcasting 
because Playgrounds just stop working, with no feedback, for this code:

class Foo
{
init(_ inVal: String) { self.name = inVal }

var name: String
var desc: String { get { return "Foo \(name)" } }
}

let f = Foo("foo")

class Bar : Foo
{
var desc: { return "Bar \(name)" }
}

let stuff: [Foo]?// = [Bar("foo"), Bar("bar"), Bar("baz")]
for item in (stuff as? [Bar]) ?? []
{
}

-- 
Rick Mann
rm...@latencyzero.com


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Re: [swift-users] for with optional collection?

[Marco S Hyman via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 1:26 PM, Rick Mann via swift-users  
> wrote:
> 
> Is there any concise way to write the following?
> 
> if let collection = someOptionalCollection
> {
>for item in collection
>{
>}
> }

someOptionalCollection?.map {
/* do something with $0 /*
}


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Re: [swift-users] for with optional collection?

[Saagar Jha via swift-users]

Or even

for item in someOptionalCollection ?? [] {
item.doSomething()
}

Saagar Jha

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 1:30 PM, Jeff Kelley via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> You can do something like this:
> 
> someOptionalCollection?.forEach { item in
>   item.doSomething()
> }
> 
> Or this:
> 
> (someOptionalCollection as? [SomeType])?.forEach { item in
>   item.doSomething()
> }
> 
> Jeff Kelley
> 
> slauncha...@gmail.com  | @SlaunchaMan 
>  | jeffkelley.org 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Rick Mann via swift-users > > wrote:
>> 
>> Is there any concise way to write the following?
>> 
>> if let collection = someOptionalCollection
>> {
>>for item in collection
>>{
>>}
>> }
>> 
>> I can imagine more complicated things, too:
>> 
>> if let collection = someOptionalCollection as? [SomeType]
>> {
>>for item in collection
>>{
>>}
>> }
>> 
>> It would be nice to be able to just attempt to iterate on an optional 
>> collection (or Sequence?) and not have to write the enclosing if block
>> 
>> Thanks!
>> 
>> -- 
>> Rick Mann
>> rm...@latencyzero.com 
>> ___
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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[David Young via swift-users]

On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 04:03:39PM -0800, Ted kremenek via swift-users wrote:
> Hi everyone,
> 
> There was a long thread on swift-evolution about whether we should use modern 
> forum software — like Discourse — as an alternative to the mailing lists we 
> have now.  After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to move 
> swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.

Can you show us what the mailing list integration looks like?

Dave

-- 
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Re: [swift-users] for with optional collection?

[Jeff Kelley via swift-users]

You can do something like this:

someOptionalCollection?.forEach { item in
item.doSomething()
}

Or this:

(someOptionalCollection as? [SomeType])?.forEach { item in
item.doSomething()
}

Jeff Kelley

slauncha...@gmail.com | @SlaunchaMan  | 
jeffkelley.org 
> On Feb 9, 2017, at 4:26 PM, Rick Mann via swift-users  
> wrote:
> 
> Is there any concise way to write the following?
> 
> if let collection = someOptionalCollection
> {
>for item in collection
>{
>}
> }
> 
> I can imagine more complicated things, too:
> 
> if let collection = someOptionalCollection as? [SomeType]
> {
>for item in collection
>{
>}
> }
> 
> It would be nice to be able to just attempt to iterate on an optional 
> collection (or Sequence?) and not have to write the enclosing if block
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> -- 
> Rick Mann
> rm...@latencyzero.com
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[swift-users] for with optional collection?

[Rick Mann via swift-users]

Is there any concise way to write the following?

if let collection = someOptionalCollection
{
for item in collection
{
}
}

I can imagine more complicated things, too:

if let collection = someOptionalCollection as? [SomeType]
{
for item in collection
{
}
}

It would be nice to be able to just attempt to iterate on an optional 
collection (or Sequence?) and not have to write the enclosing if block

Thanks!

-- 
Rick Mann
rm...@latencyzero.com


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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Cihat Gündüz via swift-users]

@Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things you 
despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect your 
language:

"I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, "crappy 
sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other 'cool' 
sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays absolutely useless 
crap“, …

Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the Swift 
Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you 
don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But 
please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in 
detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong 
direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a 
form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind 
of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.


@Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the data 
you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service which 
could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io, GitHub 
Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also means is: If the 
open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for 
emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the existing support or add 
a bridge to another open source tool that can deal with that.

-- 
Cihat Gündüz

Am 9. Februar 2017 um 15:59:33, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution 
(swift-evolut...@swift.org) schrieb:

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.


On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  wrote:

The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 


I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
(way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks are 
possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell it out 
and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels right at 
home. 


I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one 
could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from the 
forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of annotation 
(e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that does not 
contribute to anything at all.

As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little bit 
more alike.


You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming 
push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

Jan
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Joshua Alvarado via swift-users]

🎉🎊🎉🎊🎉🎊🎊
This is an awesome decision and a huge enhancement for the Swift community. 
Thanks (Core Team) for taking the time to entertain the discussion and move 
forward with what many community members have wanted. 

Alvarado, Joshua

> On Feb 8, 2017, at 5:03 PM, Ted kremenek via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> There was a long thread on swift-evolution about whether we should use modern 
> forum software — like Discourse — as an alternative to the mailing lists we 
> have now.  After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to move 
> swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.
> 
> There are tradeoffs to moving to a forum.  The main advantages are:
> 
> - Easy for people to participate without subscribing to the entire mailing 
> list, as well as no need to provide email address to participate.  A lot of 
> people have voiced concern that they feel resistance to participate because 
> of needing to subscribe to a mailing list.
> 
> - Consistent affordances and rendering of content, including Markdown 
> support.  This is really useful for having technical discussions.
> 
> - Better searching of topics, archiving, etc.
> 
> - More tools for moderation.
> 
> - Topic cross-referencing, and consistent organization of topics instead of 
> whatever threading support a mail client provides (which is inconsistent).
> 
> I also want to consider moving the -dev lists to the same forum setup as 
> well; but that will be a separate conversation on those lists.
> 
> A rollout plan has not been figured out.  People are busy and there are 
> logistics to figure out.  I will be engaging a handful of members from the 
> community to help with the transition.  Specifically, there are those who 
> really value using email for participation on swift-evolution and 
> swift-users, and the goal is to get the forum setup to allow those people to 
> continue to feel effective when using email for discussions on these "lists".
> 
> More details will be announced as they get figured out, but I felt it was 
> important to let the community know about this direction.
> 
> Ted
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ___
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> swift-evolut...@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-evolution
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[André Videla via swift-users]

Lots of emotions here. 
There is something I would like to point out that I don't feel is clear enough. 

The goal of this move is to move the community forward. The way it is moving 
the community forward is by increasing the scope of people able to participate 
while allowing new capabilities for the organizers (E.g. : more powerful 
moderation tools). 

As a community we need to accept putting aside our mild annoyances in order to 
allow the community to grow in a healthy way. 

Let us celebrate  the thousand the people who will benefit from moving to a web 
based forum. 
Whether they contribute, browse or simply share it to their friends they will 
enjoy a more open and accessible platform.

Andre Videla 

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, Michael Sheaver via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
> of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have 
> seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to 
> use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in 
> hybrid mode, go for it.
> 
> Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
> comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also 
> improves the appeal of the language to others.
> 
> Unless, of course, I am missing something here.
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>> , wrote:
>> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world 
>> does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
>>> 
>>> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
>>> derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
>>> those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
>>> you to reflect your language:
>>> 
>>> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
>>> hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, 
>>> "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of 
>>> other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays 
>>> absolutely useless crap“, …
>> 
>> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
>> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
>> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
>> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
>> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
>> programming.
>> 
>> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
>> How is that an attack?
>> 
>> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
>> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
>> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am 
>> to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>> 
>> 
>>> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the 
>>> Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
>>> rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that 
>>> you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in 
>>> general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think 
>>> it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes 
>>> to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any 
>>> explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will 
>>> learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing 
>>> your anger here, no more, no less.
>> 
>> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
>> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
>> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
>> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
>> actions - who wouldn’t?
>> 
>> 
>>> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
>>> it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
>>> the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
>>> service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
>>> groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it 
>>> also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) 
>>> doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, 
>>> improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool 
>>> that can deal with that.
>> 
>> Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for 
>> many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code u

Re: [swift-users] Swift kernel for Jupyter Notebook/IPython

[David Young via swift-users]

On Wed, Feb 08, 2017 at 12:39:34PM +, Jin Wang via swift-users wrote:
> Hey guys,
> 
> I'm building a swift kernel for Jupyter Notebook. If you haven't heard of
> it, *the Jupyter Notebook is a web application that allows you to create
> and share documents that contain live code, equations, visualizations and
> explanatory text*.

Does the Swift code run with all of the privileges of the notebook
app or its user?

In general, I am curious if/how people are arranging to run Swift code
with a restricted execution environment.

Dave

-- 
David Young
dyo...@pobox.comUrbana, IL(217) 721-9981
___
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

Easy explained - The problem rises indeed not from the added features but from 
the fp group that imposes it’s usage in the Standard libraries and “the swifty 
way”. I like many features of Swift (or I wouldn’t be here) but I don’t want to 
live in Haskel world. And for some reason these guys become more and more 
influential in the community.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 19:30, mshea...@me.com wrote:
> 
> I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
> of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have 
> seen, if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to 
> use it in a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in 
> hybrid mode, go for it.
> 
> Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
> comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also 
> improves the appeal of the language to others.
> 
> Unless, of course, I am missing something here.
> 
> On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
> , wrote:
>> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world 
>> does move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz >> > wrote:
>>> 
>>> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
>>> derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
>>> those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
>>> you to reflect your language:
>>> 
>>> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
>>> hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today 
>>> ’s standards are a bag 
>>> of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, 
>>> add lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, 
>>> "todays absolutely useless crap“, …
>> 
>> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
>> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
>> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
>> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
>> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
>> programming.
>> 
>> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
>> How is that an attack?
>> 
>> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
>> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
>> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am 
>> to direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>> 
>> 
>>> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct 
>>>  of the Swift Community. 
>>> Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally 
>>> instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t 
>>> like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But 
>>> please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in 
>>> detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the 
>>> wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are 
>>> not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from 
>>> that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no 
>>> more, no less.
>> 
>> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
>> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
>> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
>> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
>> actions - who wouldn’t?
>> 
>> 
>>> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
>>> it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
>>> the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
>>> service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
>>> groups.io , GitHub Issues or any other non-open source 
>>> solution. What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go 
>>> for (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement 
>>> it ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open 
>>> source tool that can deal with that.
>> 
>> Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for 
>> many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a 
>> thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.
>> 
>> Jan___
>> swift-users mailing list
>> swift-users@swift.org
>> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-

Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[David Sweeris via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 09:30, Matthew Johnson via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/ that has good mailing list support, 
>>> too.
>> 
>> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took 
>> a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter 
>> that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much 
>> visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed 
>> by a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but 
>> I’ve worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working 
>> on stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the 
>> field.
>> 
>> I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org switches to needs to 
>> have good email support. That way the people who hate the web UI, or who 
>> just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can keep using email as we 
>> do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, groups.io is a good 
>> example. 
>> 
>> Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to 
>> make its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I 
>> have admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so 
>> I’ve looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and 
>> some of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
>> 
>> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has 
>> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.
> 
> I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
> it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
> proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
> considered and this was our chance to offer input.  
> 
> I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.  If 
> I knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a closer 
> look at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be disappointed if 
> the experience of participating is not at least as good as it is using email.

I'm pretty sure that Discourse's mailing list support is why so many people 
suggested it.

- Dave Sweeris___
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Michael Sheaver via swift-users]

I have a simple question along this line: How does expanding the capabilities 
of Swift detract or impair its use in a fully OO manner? From what I have seen, 
if you want to use it in a strictly OO manner, great! If you want to use it in 
a strictly functional manner, no problem. If you want to use it in hybrid mode, 
go for it.

Giving developers the flexibility to code in the manner they are most 
comfortable with can only improve creativity and productivity. It also improves 
the appeal of the language to others.

Unless, of course, I am missing something here.

On Feb 9, 2017, 1:09 PM -0500, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
, wrote:
> This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does 
> move in this direction and I can’t stop it.
>
> > On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
> >
> > @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and 
> > derogatory to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting 
> > those things you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for 
> > you to reflect your language:
> >
> > "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I 
> > hate ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, 
> > "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of 
> > other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays 
> > absolutely useless crap“, …
>
> FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
> generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
> lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took 
> most languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped 
> around it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional 
> programming.
>
> And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. 
> How is that an attack?
>
> How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
> Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that 
> are a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to 
> direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.
>
>
> > Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the 
> > Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
> > rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that 
> > you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in 
> > general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think 
> > it is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes 
> > to the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any 
> > explanation are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will 
> > learn anything from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing 
> > your anger here, no more, no less.
>
> Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
> discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
> decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
> apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
> actions - who wouldn’t?
>
>
> > @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that 
> > it’s open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with 
> > the data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party 
> > service which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
> > groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it 
> > also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) 
> > doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, 
> > improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool 
> > that can deal with that.
>
> Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for 
> many. As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a 
> thing we should not forget - fitting licenses.
>
> Jan___
> swift-users mailing list
> swift-users@swift.org
> https://lists.swift.org/mailman/listinfo/swift-users
___
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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Andreas Mayer via swift-users]

> Am 09.02.2017 um 01:03 schrieb Ted kremenek via swift-users 
> :
> 
> After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to move swift-evolution 
> and swift-users to Discourse.

Are you hosting your own Discourse server? (Is that even possible?) Because I 
block discourse.com globally.

Also, I can follow along with a mailing list without having to actively click 
around some web sites. It's all centrally managed by my mail client. Web forums 
are a PITA.

I'm sure you won't miss me; but I will miss reading about Swift.
I guess it's back to just Stackoverflow for specific questions. :-(

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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

This is just for explanation. I have given up for the content, the world does 
move in this direction and I can’t stop it.

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz  wrote:
> 
> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
> to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things 
> you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect 
> your language:
> 
> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
> ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today 
> ’s standards are a bag 
> of pain“, "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add 
> lots of other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, 
> "todays absolutely useless crap“, …

FP: I think many coders hate it with a passion, a fact fans of fp don’t 
generally like. For me it’s the total brain breaking “logic” behind FP and 
lambda calculus. I started programming with assembly on mos6502 and  took most 
languages since then. There is one family I never got my brain wrapped around 
it as it works against the complete working of my brain: functional programming.

And yes I think the push for more fp elements made Swift a worse language. How 
is that an attack?

How should I call stuff that induces eye strain and headaches from usage? 
Todays modern web technics most often lead to imo totally bad websites that are 
a clearly worse then most sites before the web 2.0 hype. Sorry if I am to 
direct as a german but dancing around topics is a waste of time.


> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct 
>  of the Swift Community. Let’s 
> try to stay objective and justify different opinions rationally instead of 
> personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that you don’t like FP or 
> that you don’t like how the world is changing in general. But please be aware 
> that you have to add the reason why you think it is so in detail, so we 
> understand your thinking and can overcome changes to the wrong direction. 
> Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation are not a form of 
> constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything from that kind of 
> thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, no more, no less.

Anger? And there is no reason after gotten steamrolled by evolution on this 
discussion by simply NOT ASKING US (Swift-Users) and simply presented a 
decision? Should we be happy that a part of the community sees itself 
apparently as more important then the rest? Of course I’m angry after such 
actions - who wouldn’t?


> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
> open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the 
> data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service 
> which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against groups.io 
> , GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. 
> What it also means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for 
> (Discourse) doesn’t have good support for emails yet, we can implement it 
> ourselves, improve the existing support or add a bridge to another open 
> source tool that can deal with that.

Sadly Discourse stands under a license that makes contributing a nogo for many. 
As a BSD dev I NEVER would put any of my code under GPL. This is a thing we 
should not forget - fitting licenses.

Jan___
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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Rien via swift-users]

> On 09 Feb 2017, at 18:29, Cihat Gündüz via swift-evolution 
>  wrote:
> 
> @Jan: Your arguments are very subjective if not even insulting and derogatory 
> to many people who invest a lot of time and effort in crafting those things 
> you despise so openly. Here are just a few example quotes for you to reflect 
> your language:
> 
> "I despise fp“, „is so annoying“, "made Swift imo a worse language“, "I hate 
> ‚modern' or as I call it ugly“, "Today’s standards are a bag of pain“, 
> "crappy sites als Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of 
> other 'cool' sites“, "I can’t stand scrolling“, "I hate both“, "todays 
> absolutely useless crap“, …
> 
> Please be aware that this behavior is against the Code of Conduct of the 
> Swift Community. Let’s try to stay objective and justify different opinions 
> rationally instead of personally. Of course it is valid for you to say that 
> you don’t like FP or that you don’t like how the world is changing in 
> general. But please be aware that you have to add the reason why you think it 
> is so in detail, so we understand your thinking and can overcome changes to 
> the wrong direction. Senctences like „I despise FP“ without any explanation 
> are not a form of constructive feedback though, nobody will learn anything 
> from that kind of thing. Currently you’re merely expressing your anger here, 
> no more, no less.

I don’t think he did. He expressed his opinions rather forcefully, but we all 
tick different. He did not call anybody out specifically.
And just because somebody spend a lot of time on something does not make it 
great. And maybe they need to hear it this way to “get the message”. Sugar 
coating can do a lot of harm.

Btw: this does remind me of some of things I heard about a former -too early 
deceased- leader of apple...

Rien.


> 
> 
> @Jens: One of the biggest reasons I’m all for Discourse is the fact that it’s 
> open source. What this implies is: You know exactly what happens with the 
> data you save there, and, there is no dependency on a third-party service 
> which could change or even close over time. This is why I’m against 
> groups.io, GitHub Issues or any other non-open source solution. What it also 
> means is: If the open source tool we decided to go for (Discourse) doesn’t 
> have good support for emails yet, we can implement it ourselves, improve the 
> existing support or add a bridge to another open source tool that can deal 
> with that.
> 
> -- 
> Cihat Gündüz
> 
> Am 9. Februar 2017 um 15:59:33, Jan Neumüller via swift-evolution 
> (swift-evolut...@swift.org) schrieb:
> 
>> Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
>> have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.
>> 
>> 
>>> On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
>>> modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
>>> language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
>> (way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
>> influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
>> Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
>>> I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks 
>>> are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org, than spell 
>>> it out and help to create a corner on the web where every Swiftier feels 
>>> right at home. 
>>> 
>>> 
>> I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how 
>> one could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
>>> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
>>> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
>>> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
>>> does not contribute to anything at all.
>>> 
>>> As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
>>> font from swift.org if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d make it a little 
>>> bit more alike.
>>> 
>>> 
>> You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
>> any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional 
>> programming push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a 
>> worse language.
>> 
>> Jan
>> ___
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Re: [swift-users] Problem with console apps

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:33 AM, Andrey Fidrya via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> Neither setbuf(stdout, nil) nor fflush(stdout) helps, so it appears
> this is an Xcode issue.

In that case you should file bug report at http://bugreport.apple.com 
. 
The xcode-users mailing list hosted at http://lists.apple.com 
 is also a reasonable place to discuss Xcode issues 
(but not a substitute for a bug report.)

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Matthew Johnson via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 11:16 AM, Jens Alfke via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>> mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
>> good mailing list support, too.
> 
> Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took 
> a look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter 
> that’s been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much 
> visual noise it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed by 
> a coder with a big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but I’ve 
> worked extensively with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working on 
> stuff like iChat and AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the 
> field.
> 
> I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org  
> switches to needs to have good email support. That way the people who hate 
> the web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can keep 
> using email as we do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, 
> groups.io  is a good example. 
> 
> Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to make 
> its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I have 
> admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so I’ve 
> looked through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and some 
> of the problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.
> 
> At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has 
> been made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.

I’ve been mostly silent in this conversation largely because I didn’t realize 
it was leading up to a formal decision.  I wish it would have followed the 
proposal process so it was clear to everyone that a decision was being 
considered and this was our chance to offer input.  

I really like the experience of participating in the community via email.  If I 
knew a decision was being seriously considered I would have taken a closer look 
at Discourse and likely offered more input.  I will be disappointed if the 
experience of participating is not at least as good as it is using email.

One of the most important reasons I like using email is that Mail offers a 
great experience on iPhone and iPad.  I am skeptical that a web-based forum 
could offer the same level of convenience and efficiency for keeping up with 
the community that email provides.

I hope that we do find a way to configure our tool (probably Discourse) so that 
the email experience on iPhone and iPad does not suffer.  If we can meet that 
criteria and *also* offer the advantages of a web-based tool I will be very 
happy.  But I think the current email experience on iPhone and iPad should set 
a minimum criteria that any tool must meet.

> 
> —Jens
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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jens Alfke via swift-users]

> On Feb 9, 2017, at 3:41 AM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>  wrote:
> 
> I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
> good mailing list support, too.

Well, we appear to have completely opposite opinions on UI/usability. I took a 
look at fudforum and yeah, to my eyes it exemplifies the awful clutter that’s 
been a hallmark of web forums since before PHPBB. There’s so much visual noise 
it’s very hard to parse or to find anything. Clearly designed by a coder with a 
big hammer named “”. I’m not a UI designer, but I’ve worked extensively 
with UI designers (I spent 15 years at Apple working on stuff like iChat and 
AppleScript) so I think I have some grounding in the field.

I do believe, though, that whatever solution swift.org  
switches to needs to have good email support. That way the people who hate the 
web UI, or who just don’t prefer to use the web for discussions, can keep using 
email as we do today. This is perfectly feasible to do; again, groups.io 
 is a good example. 

Here my concern is that I have not found a way to configure Discourse to make 
its email notifications work well as a substitute for a mailing list. I have 
admin privileges on a Discourse installation run by my employer, so I’ve looked 
through the entire admin UI for ways to improve the emails, and some of the 
problems don’t seem fixable by tweaking settings.

At this point I’m going to shut up because it sounds like the decision has been 
made, and I don’t want to contribute to further bike-shedding.

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

Well, if the community likes it so much. Have fun with it. I will leave as I 
have left the Developer Forums at Apple because they became unusable.


> On 9 Feb 2017, at 15:17, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> The quote below made my day dear Swift friend as I might remind you that if 
> modern is associated with hate in your mind, then the modern programming 
> language called Swift would probably be a bad choice. 
> 
> 
I starting to think that myself. I was very active at the beginning of Swift 
(way before the open sourcing) but I absolutely don’t like the increasing 
influence of functional programming on it. I despise fp and don’t want it in 
Swift. If people want it that much use Haskell 8(
> I might remind everyone that Discourse is open sourced and therefore tweaks 
> are possible. If you prefer a consistent font like on swift.org 
> , than spell it out and help to create a corner on the web 
> where every Swiftier feels right at home. 
> 
> 
I don’t think that Discourse is salvageable but go on. But I don’t know how one 
could rip out this big piece of JavaScript and keep ist functional.
> Personally I’d prefer (if possible) that we’d remove profile pictures from 
> the forum and simply have only full names (colored?) + some kind of 
> annotation (e.g. Core Team, etc.). Profile pictures are only gimmicks that 
> does not contribute to anything at all.
> 
> As Jan already said, the font (and font-size?) of the forum could match the 
> font from swift.org  if possible. I wouldn’t mind and it’d 
> make it a little bit more alike.
> 
> 
You don’t have to care for me - Swift 4 will be the deciding step if I throw 
any Swift work away and return to Objective-C. The heavy functional programming 
push since open sourcing is so annoying and made Swift imo a worse language.

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Karl Wagner via swift-users]

  
  
Happy dance! 🎉🕺🎉
  
  
  

  
I've said before that I think this a good move. Hopefully it encourages more 
ad-hoc contributions - e.g. Unicode experts who have suggestions for the String 
model, Perl developers with suggestions for pattern-matching, systems 
architects with suggestions for the memory model, etc. That's what open-source 
is all about, IMO. Maybe somebody they know notices the discussion - with this 
they'll have a convenient interface to get up to speed, follow the discussion 
and chime in with their experience. I don't know if that will _actually_ happen 
or how many such developers there are, but   by lowering the barrier to 
participation   we're doing as much as we can do to encourage them.
  
  
  
 So yeah, thanks a lot!
  
  
  
 - Karl
  
  
  

  
>   
> On Feb 9, 2017 at 12:03 am,   (mailto:swift-users@swift.org)>  wrote:
>   
>   
>   
>  Hi everyone,
>
> There was a long thread on swift-evolution about whether we should use modern 
> forum software — like Discourse — as an alternative to the mailing lists we 
> have now. After a long discussion, the Core Team has decided to move 
> swift-evolution and swift-users to Discourse.
>
> There are tradeoffs to moving to a forum. The main advantages are:
>
> - Easy for people to participate without subscribing to the entire mailing 
> list, as well as no need to provide email address to participate. A lot of 
> people have voiced concern that they feel resistance to participate because 
> of needing to subscribe to a mailing list.
>
> - Consistent affordances and rendering of content, including Markdown 
> support. This is really useful for having technical discussions.
>
> - Better searching of topics, archiving, etc.
>
> - More tools for moderation.
>
> - Topic cross-referencing, and consistent organization of topics instead of 
> whatever threading support a mail client provides (which is inconsistent).
>
> I also want to consider moving the -dev lists to the same forum setup as 
> well; but that will be a separate conversation on those lists.
>
> A rollout plan has not been figured out. People are busy and there are 
> logistics to figure out. I will be engaging a handful of members from the 
> community to help with the transition. Specifically, there are those who 
> really value using email for participation on swift-evolution and 
> swift-users, and the goal is to get the forum setup to allow those people to 
> continue to feel effective when using email for discussions on these "lists".
>
> More details will be announced as they get figured out, but I felt it was 
> important to let the community know about this direction.
>
> Ted
>
>
>
>
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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 14:32, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> I’m sorry for you, but I don’t think we’re talking in this thread about being 
> old and wearing glasses or not. My eyes aren’t the best either, but I’m not 
> complaining about that or try to make this as an argument against 
> minimalistic designs. (Coloring is a different story of its own.)
> 
> 
I hate “modern” or as I call it ugly web design.

> How’s that needed UI at all? It’s an ugly piece of web art compared to these 
> days standards. 
> 
> 
Everything making functions and structure clearer is good. Today’s standards 
are a bag of pain and I never understood how such crappy sites als Facebook, 
Twitter, Instagram, Stackoverflow, add lots of other “cool” sites are liked by 
so many. For me they are the epitome of what is wrong with todays web.

> What’s the problem with endless scrolling? We’re all doing that every day on 
> the internet, scrolling down to find and click on the next or # button for 
> the purpose to again being able to scroll down to click on the same button 
> over and over again. Discourse took that unnecessary click from you and 
> provides a nice side scroller to quickly jump to a specific reply you want.
> 
> 
I can’t stand scrolling. Pages and pageturning are much nicer to my eyes and 
mind. I always lose track in these endless scrolling nightmares.

> Reading all your complains lets me think that it’s exactly how you would 
> think about sites like stackoverflow for example (or even the minimalistic 
> swift.org ).
> 
> 
Se above - I hate both. At least swift.org  has a font in 
readable size.

For me even the old geocities chaos was nicer then todays minimalistic crap. 
But I may possible thats my age, I hate modern music and movies, too.

> I’m not trying to be offensive by any means. I just criticized your choice 
> from my esthetic point of view.
> 
> 
And I’m just frustrated at this downward spiral in useful and nice design. It’s 
like the iOS Music app  - gone from a nice and very useful app (till iOS6) to 
todays absolutely useless crap that tries to forcefeed Apple Music onto me but 
doesn’t help in efficient handling of my own music library. Luckily I could 
switch to Caesium to fix that.

Jan

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 13:50, Adrian Zubarev  
> wrote:
> 
> That last one is horrible to even look at (that’s my personal point of view). 
> It’s packed full with unnecessary UI, which reminds me of the time when 
> html-tables ruled all over the place. Discourse has a nice minimalistic look 
> and I’m sure people that will setup the forum will tweak it to make it feel 
> more appropriate for Swift, just like the design of the evolution-page was 
> tweaked several times. 
> 
I don’t see unnecessary UI, I see NEEDED UI. Discourse is so minimalistic you 
don’t see any relevant information at all 8(

> Here is really good example of how a huge/popular topic like the current one 
> or String in Swift 4 would look like with Discourse (I picked one from Rust 
> with lots of replies): 
> https://users.rust-lang.org/t/high-order-function-with-type-parameter/3112/ 
> 
> +1 for Discourse, I think it really is the right choice.
> 
What is good at this example? I don’t see anything good there but lots of 
problems:

- very hard to see who posted a reply
- very bad readability thanks to tiny font and low contrast colors
- totally broken threading (is one really supposed to click each time on 
replies to see them?)
- lots of wasted screen space (empty space and a very narrow text area)
- cryptic stuff like this 
https://www.dropbox.com/s/6a9fyuin4yyp5u8/Screenshot%202017-02-09%2014.03.20.png?dl=0
 

- endless scrolling…

This is considered GOOD today? Does any modern web trend think on older people 
and people with glasses anymore?

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Jan Neumüller via swift-users]

My problem with Discourse lies in its terrible ui. It  is like most modern 
social media: totally useless to find stuff and stay organized in it. It 
reminds my heavy on the terrible ui of Facebook and the redone developer forums 
at Apple that have gone from fine to utterly useless chaos. Perhaps I’m to old 
for modern web, but what are other finding great at this?

I would prefer http://www.fudforum.org/  that has 
good mailing list support, too.

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Re: [swift-users] Problem with console apps

[Andrey Fidrya via swift-users]

A follow-up:
flushing stdout works in console, but not in Xcode.
Neither setbuf(stdout, nil) nor fflush(stdout) helps, so it appears
this is an Xcode issue.

import Darwin

setbuf(stdout, nil)
while true
 {
print("A question.")
print("Your answer: ", terminator: "") // not printed
//fflush(stdout)

sleep(1)
print("")
}

Regards,
Andrey


> On 8 Feb 2017, at 20:04, Andrey Fidrya  wrote:
> 
> Hi All,
> 
> In Xcode 8.3 beta print() stopped outputting unterminated lines:
> https://bugs.swift.org/browse/SR-3827 
> 
> I've retested with recently released beta 2 and the issue is still present.
> Could anyone from dev team take a look at this issue please?
> I'm worried that it will make into release because it makes working
> with interactive console apps impossible.
> 
> Regards,
> Andrey
> 

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Re: [swift-users] [swift-evolution] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Tino Heth via swift-users]

Great news — and I guess it's a plus that Discourse isn't PHP but Ruby, as I 
expect there are quite a lot Rubyists around here.
So, hopefully the issues that might exist (especially with the mail interface) 
can be addressed to make everyone happy.

Although Discourse looks like a really good fit, I would be interested to hear 
about other forum solutions as well: It would be a pity if we choose based on 
popularity only, ignoring alternatives completely just because they aren't that 
trendy.

- Tino

Anyone interested in starting to write a (possible) long-term solution using 
server-side Swift? Imho the challenge doesn't look that hard, and I've already 
been thinking about starting such a toy project to dive into the topic...
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Re: [swift-users] Collection Oddities

[Dave Abrahams via swift-users]

on Tue Feb 07 2017, Guillaume Lessard  wrote:

>> On 7 févr. 2017, at 21:57, Slava Pestov  wrote:
>> 
>>> 
>>> On Feb 7, 2017, at 8:14 PM, Guillaume Lessard via swift-users 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>
>>> I keep running into weird things with Swift 3 Collections.
>>> 
>>> A) Collection has its count property defined as an Int via IndexDistance:
>>> 
>>> public protocol Collection : Indexable, Sequence {
>>>   associatedtype IndexDistance : SignedInteger = Int  // line 182 in 
>>> Collection.swift
>>>   public var count: IndexDistance { get } // line 776
>>> }
>> 
>> This declaration specifies that the *default* associated type is
>> Int, not that it’s *always* Int. A Collection implementation is free
>> to use a different type as its IndexDistance if it wants.
>
> I see how I’d misunderstood that line.
>
> This being said, does this particular freedom really bring anything to
> the table? It is simply a counter (“the number of steps between a pair
> of indices”). On one hand, a “collection" that has in excess of
> Int.max/2 elements likely needs a different protocol; on the other,
> using a shorter type for a counter seems retro.

There are still plenty of 32-bit platforms that address 64-bit files,
which should be able to be modeled as Collections.

-- 
-Dave

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Re: [swift-users] Plan to move swift-evolution and swift-users mailing lists to Discourse

[Martin Man via swift-users]

Is there any reason why there needs to be a separate tool for this?

If mailing lists are no go why not just stay on GitHub and use GitHub issues 
for proposals?

Thanks,
Martin

> On 9 Feb 2017, at 08:51, Jens Alfke via swift-users  
> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Feb 8, 2017, at 4:48 PM, Jan Neumüller via swift-users 
>> mailto:swift-users@swift.org>> wrote:
>> 
>> May I ask why with so many great open source forums that junk Discourse got 
>> chosen? I'm very perplexed by this decision...
> 
> I’ve looked at a lot of forum software, and most of the open-source ones are 
> pretty poor* in terms of UI and usability.
> Discourse is very good as a web app, although its email integration doesn’t 
> work that well IMHO, so it’s not really a direct replacement for a mailing 
> list.
> If I were proposing something, I’d propose groups.io . 
> (Which is also not open source, sorry.)
> 
> —Jens
> 
> * I’m being diplomatic. Many of them are worse than poor. The word “wretched” 
> comes to mind.
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