Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Sunday, May 08, 2011 10:18:14 PM Peter von Kaehne wrote: I do not really care about the exact format (though I still think bibtex or some xml-ish format would be fine), but - whatever - I do propose to restrict our support to a few important entries: Title Author, Translator, Editor Publisher Year of original publication Place of original publication Electronic publisher (i.e. CrossWire, Xiphos, etc) Anything I forgot? URL available from and date of download if possible. ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On 14/01/11 19:14, Daniel Owens wrote: On 01/14/2011 12:48 PM, Peter von Kaehne wrote: Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:32:44 -0500 Von: DM Smithdmsm...@crosswire.org * The construction of a Bibtex entry looks error prone. Having a web page that can construct an entry from input would be good. I think I would go one step further - we should have a conf file generator somewhere. Peter I think this is an excellent idea! I wish I could write it because it would make module submission easier. A few weeks ago, I have created a conf file generator (confmaker.pl) which is in sword-tools. It is a perl script which analyses a given OSIS text and creates a conf file from it. It looks for certain tags and creates the relevant OSIS filter options and creates some other entries. Basically a conf file created with it works, but would always benefit from some human interaction and augmentation. To move on from here towards bibliography enytries we need to get some clarity re direction of bibliography entries. I do not really care about the exact format (though I still think bibtex or some xml-ish format would be fine), but - whatever - I do propose to restrict our support to a few important entries: Title Author, Translator, Editor Publisher Year of original publication Place of original publication Electronic publisher (i.e. CrossWire, Xiphos, etc) Anything I forgot? Peter ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net wrote: b) How does an end user refomat a specific citation from obtained from Sword converted to another format? Absolutely any and every open source bibliographic software can handle BibTeX - at least as import format, if not as native format. Most can also export into other formats. Yes indeed any and every open source bibliographic software can but not everyone uses them. Indeed the most frequently used bibliographic package installed out there amongst the market is neither open source nor handles BibTeX. EndNote is by far the market leader and it does not accept BibTeX (probably deliberately on the part of ThompsonReuters). To make an assumption about what users actually have to hand is a gross generalisation. Not everyone is as committed to open source or is permitted to be. When I returned to univeristy, as a mature student, a ew years ago the expectation was that all 10,000 students in the univeristy would use EndNote. There was no mention of any open source products at all. Installation of unapproved software is a dismissable offence. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
This is an open source programme and while I am all for making life easy for people who want to switch from closed software, I see no reason to support deliberately crippled software. Wrt the claim that Endnote is the market leader - the ongoing law suit suggests that this is is not a sustainable position long term and needs now shoring up with to my mind spurious suits. which in turn suggests we do not need to care for Endnote users. Wrt the claim that no one at university is allowed to use anything other than Endnote - I am sure that universities using such bizarre restrictions will also not look too kindly at the use of CrossWire's software - so again, there is nothing left to worry. Finally, reading through info on the ongoing lawsuite - i do not think that we really want to support ens format, lest we want to lay ourselves open to further spurious law suits. Regards Peter -- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
A couple of thoughts on this thread. I agree with many thoughts and will repeat them, unattributed, here: * Our goal is spiritual (to extend His Kingdom) and our conversation should be seasoned with salt, edifying and godly. * A single entry of bibliographic data is a good thing. While we try to be accurate in our representation of a module, we do make mistakes from time to time. These should be attributable to us. Sometimes, our source has mistakes and this should be attributable to them. This deals with the provenance of the module. * It does not matter what that form is. What matters is that it is useful. Will a single format be universally useful? No. * The SWORD engine could make that form useful in the same way that different render filters make a SWORD module useful to different rendering engines. This probably is not actually needed if the chosen format is widely useful. * The chosen form should have an open source parser so we don't have to grow our own, if it is ever needed. Couple of new thoughts (i.e. mine): * The key in the conf for such an entry should be implementation neutral. The documentation (i.e. the conf's wiki page) should document the expected format. If needed, add another key that declares the format. * Having a bibliographic entry in the conf, while good, should be entirely optional. * The construction of a Bibtex entry looks error prone. Having a web page that can construct an entry from input would be good. * Having a good bibliographic format could allow us to deprecate some bibliographic entries in the conf. * BibTeX seems like a good choice. In addition to the arguments for it: BibTeX is 25+ years old. It is useful to those using LaTeX. In Him, DM On 01/14/2011 12:50 PM, Trevor Jenkins wrote: On Thu, 13 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehneref...@gmx.net wrote: b) How does an end user refomat a specific citation from obtained from Sword converted to another format? Absolutely any and every open source bibliographic software can handle BibTeX - at least as import format, if not as native format. Most can also export into other formats. Yes indeed any and every open source bibliographic software can but not everyone uses them. Indeed the most frequently used bibliographic package installed out there amongst the market is neither open source nor handles BibTeX. EndNote is by far the market leader and it does not accept BibTeX (probably deliberately on the part of ThompsonReuters). To make an assumption about what users actually have to hand is a gross generalisation. Not everyone is as committed to open source or is permitted to be. When I returned to univeristy, as a mature student, a ew years ago the expectation was that all 10,000 students in the univeristy would use EndNote. There was no mention of any open source products at all. Installation of unapproved software is a dismissable offence. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:32:44 -0500 Von: DM Smith dmsm...@crosswire.org * The construction of a Bibtex entry looks error prone. Having a web page that can construct an entry from input would be good. I think I would go one step further - we should have a conf file generator somewhere. Peter -- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On 01/14/2011 12:48 PM, Peter von Kaehne wrote: Original-Nachricht Datum: Fri, 14 Jan 2011 13:32:44 -0500 Von: DM Smithdmsm...@crosswire.org * The construction of a Bibtex entry looks error prone. Having a web page that can construct an entry from input would be good. I think I would go one step further - we should have a conf file generator somewhere. Peter I think this is an excellent idea! I wish I could write it because it would make module submission easier. I wonder, though, if what we need in the conf file is not a record that would be used in a bibliographic database such as BibTeX but rather what library catalogs have. If we chose a format that was pretty common (i.e., that a prominent/visible library uses, such as the U.S. Library of Congress) then bibliographic software that sucks that information from websites would support it. That would include everything from EndNote to Zotero, I would think. I am not sure how open such standards are or how easy they are to implement, but the input of conf file entries might be more accurately entered through a web form with files like Title, Author, Editor, Place of Publication, Publisher, Date of Publication, etc. If that web form then had a place to upload a source file (OSIS or whatever) then it would be easier to ensure that conf files were well-structured and consistent. Just a thought. Daniel ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On 12/01/11 20:27, Greg Hellings wrote: On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Chris Little chris...@crosswire.org wrote: This is an excellent idea, but I worry about BibTeX being the wrong format to encourage academic use. I love LaTeX, personally. I just spent a day putting together a reader for my class in LaTeX. But I'm probably in a minority here, and outside of math sciences, I believe almost no one uses LaTeX. It is a fairly old format, so there are lots of importers for other software like EndNote. I hear the limited use of LaTeX is pretty much relegated to graduate school and students. That is, of course, anecdotal information. While LaTeX by itself is indeed fairly restricted in its use circles, I think BibTeX reaches _a_lot_ further - it is the primary format of all Linux based stand-alone bibliography managers I know of. In fact going through my Ubuntu repos just now I could not find a single reference manager which did not work with BibTex as its native format. It can be used by OpenOffice, Zotero imports these just fine. So, I have no objection to alternative formats, nor do I think that templating is a bad idea, but to be honest, the more complicated the specification, the less likely it will see the light of day, no? So, either a single reference system conf entry added or (more difficult to maintain) a increased list of compulsory conf entries which then get parsed to create references in whatever format desired. Parsing could happen as Chris suggested with the help of a nightly cron script or it could happen with a simple templating as Greg suggested. Right now we could with little effort add to every existing module a reasonable reference, could impose some further specification onto the conf file to make automatic creation simple and could retrieve the citation with an existing method from the conf file. Having the conf file as the central place where this info is kept would allow also third party tools/scripts to create a bibliography of installed modules when frontends are slow to pick up on the new facility. Peter ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net wrote: Modules really should have bibtex or something similar in their conf file. This would improve the use of our library for academic purposes. Some design questions for you. (Always better to fix bug in design than in the debug or production phase. Standard software engineering procedures; the more time spent in design the less time in the debugger.) a) How does the end user get the bibliographic citation out of the .conf file for a module? b) How does an end user reformat a specific citation from obtained from Sword converted to another format? c) Why not delegate the bibliographic information to the module provider? Chris Little mentioned in an email that it would be possible to generate the bibliographic information on the Crosswire server. Why not leave it there and the very few people who really need it can grab it from the server. d) Why does any mention of Sword (or Crosswire) need to be made for those modules that have not been through some textual amendation process? In citing a book, paper, article, or other resource discovered online one doesn't say found with Google, or in a search result from Bing. The bibliographic information a scholar would require is author(s)/editor(s), year of publication , edition, place(s) of publication. In the main those are going to be the original publisher. Crosswire only needs be credited if copy-editing changes have been made to the text; I contend that claiming for marking up a module is unecessary. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On 13/01/11 16:57, Trevor Jenkins wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net wrote: Modules really should have bibtex or something similar in their conf file. This would improve the use of our library for academic purposes. Some design questions for you. (Always better to fix bug in design than in the debug or production phase. Standard software engineering procedures; the more time spent in design the less time in the debugger.) a) How does the end user get the bibliographic citation out of the .conf file for a module? Was explained in previous email. But a) there is a method in libsword for getting conf entries (so frontends can access this) and b) the conf files are there, public and accessibly in your home directory, so anything/anyone can get it from there without using a frontend. b) How does an end user refomat a specific citation from obtained from Sword converted to another format? Absolutely any and every open source bibliographic software can handle BibTeX - at least as import format, if not as native format. Most can also export into other formats. c) Why not delegate the bibliographic information to the module provider? Chris Little mentioned in an email that it would be possible to generate the bibliographic information on the Crosswire server. Why not leave it there and the very few people who really need it can grab it from the server. Why? To make it more complicated to access? 100-200 bytes added material ? Why should this not in the conf file? d) Why does any mention of Sword (or Crosswire) need to be made for those modules that have not been through some textual amendation process? In citing a book, paper, article, or other resource discovered online one doesn't say found with Google, or in a search result from Bing. The bibliographic information a scholar would require is author(s)/editor(s), year of publication , edition, place(s) of publication. In the main those are going to be the original publisher. Crosswire only needs be credited if copy-editing changes have been made to the text; I contend that claiming for marking up a module is unecessary. Massive difference to Google, which links to content rather than providing content Apart from that Greg has answered this. I think his answer stands. Peter ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
Von: Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net I therefore consider you a user and not a particularly friendly one. s/user/bystander/ One should never send serious emails at 2 am. -- Empfehlen Sie GMX DSL Ihren Freunden und Bekannten und wir belohnen Sie mit bis zu 50,- Euro! https://freundschaftswerbung.gmx.de ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net wrote: Von: Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net I therefore consider you a user and not a particularly friendly one. s/user/bystander/ One should never send serious emails at 2 am. I may be critical and argumentative (and so what if I am) but at least I don't resort to ad hominem argumentation. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Wed, Jan 12, 2011 at 12:59 PM, Trevor Jenkins trevor.jenk...@suneidesis.com wrote: On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net wrote: Von: Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net I therefore consider you a user and not a particularly friendly one. s/user/bystander/ One should never send serious emails at 2 am. I may be critical and argumentative (and so what if I am) but at least I don't resort to ad hominem argumentation. Peter's was not an ad hominem argument, but rather a proposal that the list ignore someone with a distinct history of trolling. --Greg ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 7:00 PM, Chris Little chris...@crosswire.org wrote: This is an excellent idea, but I worry about BibTeX being the wrong format to encourage academic use. I love LaTeX, personally. I just spent a day putting together a reader for my class in LaTeX. But I'm probably in a minority here, and outside of math sciences, I believe almost no one uses LaTeX. It is a fairly old format, so there are lots of importers for other software like EndNote. I hear the limited use of LaTeX is pretty much relegated to graduate school and students. That is, of course, anecdotal information. I think keeping BibTeX would be great, but I'd like to encourage us to also adopt CSL (http://citationstyles.org/), which is used by a few different programs, including Zotero. I'd also recommend we figure out a way to do everything via scripts and auto-generate BibTeX and CSL entries with a nightly cron job. We can fill out additional .conf entries, as necessary, to make the automation easier. Rather than forcing the library to maintain memory of multiple formats, maybe a very simple template system? Then the user can specify the output into an arbitrary format and run it through a single method call in the library to output any format they desire. Samples could be maintained with BibTeX, CSL or whatever else people wish to supply? --Greg ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Wed, 12 Jan 2011, Greg Hellings greg.helli...@gmail.com wrote: Peter's was not an ad hominem argument, but rather a proposal that the list ignore someone with a distinct history of trolling. If by trolling you mean challenging ill-considered ideas by over eager developers, for example, adding overly complex formats into a file central to the correct operation of the software, then guilty as changed. As to history 72 messages from me over 10+ years well yeah history but ... Or maybe I'm wrong and shouldn't express the occasional professional computing science opinion about such idiotic suggestions and just let Sword become bloated with features that are part-baked in their definition. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehne ref...@gmx.net wrote: Modules really should have bibtex or something similar in their conf file. This would improve the use of our library for academic purposes. I don't understand this. First, I don't understand why a system's internal file format needs to be changed to accommodate the whimsey and caprice of a particular group. There is no BibTeX parser within Sword. If any new format for .conf files were to be proposed, and I'm not arguing that it should, some XMLisation would be a better choice. Second, I don't understand what a library (in some sense from above) having to do with the internal workings of Sword has anything to do with academic acceptance. Unless you mean that academics ought to be persuaded to use a Sword module over the equvialent encapsulation from from e-Sword or Accordance. We have talked about this a while ago. I don't recall the discussion. Refresh my memory, please. I think we reached some sort of agreement that Bibtex entries should be added to the conf file, though beyond the principle we did not move. Nor has anyone committed any code. Are you suggesting that BibTeX entries be embedded within .conf files? In addition to the existing format of the files? Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On 01/11/2011 11:27 AM, Trevor Jenkins wrote: On Mon, 10 Jan 2011, Peter von Kaehneref...@gmx.net wrote: Modules really should have bibtex or something similar in their conf file. This would improve the use of our library for academic purposes. I don't understand this. First, I don't understand why a system's internal file format needs to be changed to accommodate the whimsey and caprice of a particular group. There is no BibTeX parser within Sword. If any new format for .conf files were to be proposed, and I'm not arguing that it should, some XMLisation would be a better choice. Second, I don't understand what a library (in some sense from above) having to do with the internal workings of Sword has anything to do with academic acceptance. Unless you mean that academics ought to be persuaded to use a Sword module over the equvialent encapsulation from from e-Sword or Accordance. We have talked about this a while ago. I don't recall the discussion. Refresh my memory, please. I think we reached some sort of agreement that Bibtex entries should be added to the conf file, though beyond the principle we did not move. Nor has anyone committed any code. Are you suggesting that BibTeX entries be embedded within .conf files? In addition to the existing format of the files? Regards, Trevor As a PhD student, I personally think this would be very helpful. Many different bibliographic database programs can import BibTeX data, so it makes getting information into programs like Zotero (a Firefox extension that is the most popular choice among my colleauges) very easy. If the data is embedded in the conf file, then conf files online are a ready source of bibliographic data for someone seeking to cite a source in SWORD. This came home to me when I was preparing a paper for my application to the PhD program I am now in, and I had to find the bibliographic information for Aquinas' Summa. It took a bit of effort, but BibTeX data would have saved me the time and headache. It is yet another enticement to users to start using SWORD. Daniel ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, Daniel Owens dhow...@pmbx.net wrote: As a PhD student, I personally think this would be very helpful. Many different bibliographic database programs can import BibTeX data, so it makes getting information into programs like Zotero (a Firefox extension that is the most popular choice among my colleauges) very easy. If the data is embedded in the conf file, then conf files online are a ready source of bibliographic data for someone seeking to cite a source in SWORD. ... I can see many good reasons for Sword having functionality to output bibliographic data ... in any format/encoding. But I still am confused about what it is that consistutes the source. The module? The module content and therefore the original publisher (and possible copyright holder)? This came home to me when I was preparing a paper for my application to the PhD program I am now in, and I had to find the bibliographic information for Aquinas' Summa. ... Which makes me think it is the content you're after. That it occurs in an Sword module is irrelevant and therefore the original suggestion is speciious. Now if the source atribution is recorded in the .conf file fine, but for those of us who want it in some other format such as Zotero's Open Citation Style, refer, MedLine, or even RFC 1807 formats insisting it is held in BibTeX (sadly a minority format these days) is unusable. ... It took a bit of effort, but BibTeX data would have saved me the time and headache. It is yet another enticement to users to start using SWORD. While I'd have no quibble with bibliographic data being recorded in .conf files it should be there in a neutral form and specific functions written to produce it in the users required/requested format. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Trevor Jenkins trevor.jenk...@suneidesis.com wrote: But I still am confused about what it is that consistutes the source. The module? The module content and therefore the original publisher (and possible copyright holder)? If someone is quoting out of the SWORD module, then clearly the module is the source. Perhaps the module differs from the other published versions - in which case it is important for the citation to reference the module, so that someone checking the reference can ascertain that the quoter was not being intentionally misleading nor misquoting. This came home to me when I was preparing a paper for my application to the PhD program I am now in, and I had to find the bibliographic information for Aquinas' Summa. ... Which makes me think it is the content you're after. That it occurs in an Sword module is irrelevant and therefore the original suggestion is speciious. The fact that it occurs in a SWORD module is the entire point. If I garner a quote from my printed version of the Communist Manifesto but that is different from the print copy my reader has - it is important for my reader to know the publisher and printing of my copy so that s/he can compare. Then, if the versions differ, there is reason to research why that is. If the two are identical but I have misquoted, then I need the correction. The suggestion is neither irrelevant nor specious. Citation of a digital work, especially one which lacks pagination, is an extra layer of complication on an already difficult subject of source attribution. People will, do and have cited SWORD modules. It is important for them to cite it properly so that a different person can check their work. Bibtex has been the only suggestion I have heard for a format prior to now. It certainly could also be possible to support additional formats if someone is willing to either provide the entry or provide code to generate the entry. Now if the source atribution is recorded in the .conf file fine, but for those of us who want it in some other format such as Zotero's Open Citation Style, refer, MedLine, or even RFC 1807 formats insisting it is held in BibTeX (sadly a minority format these days) is unusable. Which leaves those of you using non-Bibtex no different than you are now, but those using Bibtex better off then they are now. It is not a 0-sum situation. ... It took a bit of effort, but BibTeX data would have saved me the time and headache. It is yet another enticement to users to start using SWORD. While I'd have no quibble with bibliographic data being recorded in .conf files it should be there in a neutral form and specific functions written to produce it in the users required/requested format. Alternatively every desired format could be stored in the .conf file. There are many possibilities. Even a plaintext entry in the .conf file, which users of one of these systems could then process into their desired markup so that it is output according to their rules. A sample Chicago/Turabian formatted citation in the work or something with similarly standard rules go a long way beyond where we currently are. --Greg ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, Greg Hellings greg.helli...@gmail.com wrote: While I'd have no quibble with bibliographic data being recorded in .conf files it should be there in a neutral form and specific functions written to produce it in the users required/requested format. Alternatively every desired format could be stored in the .conf file. No no no. That way leaves to inconsistencies and corruption. Apply 3NF and 4NF normalisation to this data. If the bibliographic data is to be there put it there only once and then have some API layer to extract and present it in what ever format the user needs. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 5:19 PM, Trevor Jenkins trevor.jenk...@suneidesis.com wrote: On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, Greg Hellings greg.helli...@gmail.com wrote: While I'd have no quibble with bibliographic data being recorded in .conf files it should be there in a neutral form and specific functions written to produce it in the users required/requested format. Alternatively every desired format could be stored in the .conf file. No no no. That way leaves to inconsistencies and corruption. Apply 3NF and 4NF normalisation to this data. If the bibliographic data is to be there put it there only once and then have some API layer to extract and present it in what ever format the user needs. Did you read the rest of my email or did you stop to throw fire on one of a list of alternatives I gave? 3NF, BCNF and 4NF are all fine and good when you're drawing out a database schema on a piece of paper. In actual practice they often lead to massively more computation and upkeep than simply denormalizing the data. In this case, BibTeX is basically the same as what you are prescribing - each of the pieces of data split out into its own, separate field. It is already a standardized, well built tool to handle all of the intricacies and details of creating the type of information the user has requested. It is open and has a large array of tools which can process it into many different types of output format. So which is it - do you want this data to be Normal Formed into the ground and then SWORD needs to know how to support the citation format du jour plus all the legacies? Or shall we produce something that the end user, with a specific and pointed problem, can use? I sure don't want to keep track of processing some arbitrary number of formats. We have a person who has asked for BibTeX support - is there any reason for not supporting BibTeX other than, Well I don't use it? --Greg ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, Greg Hellings greg.helli...@gmail.com wrote: No no no. That way leaves to inconsistencies and corruption. Apply 3NF and 4NF normalisation to this data. If the bibliographic data is to be there put it there only once and then have some API layer to extract and present it in what ever format the user needs. Did you read the rest of my email or did you stop to throw fire on one of a list of alternatives I gave? The rest of your email posits multiple copies of the same bibliographic data repeated in .conf files. Wrong, wrong, wrong. If there has to be bibliographic data in there then it should be in a neutral format (consistent with the rest of the .conf file syntax) not BibTeX mashed in there. 3NF, BCNF and 4NF are all fine and good when you're drawing out a database schema on a piece of paper. In actual practice they often lead to massively more computation and upkeep than simply denormalizing the data. Well of course one could have N1NF data in there and then there's is the very great risk of inconsistencies within the multiple copies of the bibliographic data. Think about the issues involved not the emotional response to a specific but minority format. ... In this case, BibTeX is basically the same as what you are prescribing - each of the pieces of data split out into its own, separate field. No the difference is that BibTeX would require the .conf parser to be extended with a heavyweight parser dealing with the vagaries of BibTeX. Sure sliplt the data in to fields but in existing .conf file format. Then add API functions to extract format neutral data and present it in the required formats. ... It is already a standardized, well built tool to handle all of the intricacies and details of creating the type of information the user has requested. It is open and has a large array of tools which can process it into many different types of output format. What you call intricacies I call vagaries. It isn't a well-documented format. There's too much to go wrong. Very true. I've used must of those tools over the years but not mashed up and mixed in with other data. And to support this format you're going to have to re-implement much of all of them simply to make it work. So which is it - do you want this data to be Normal Formed into the ground and then SWORD needs to know how to support the citation format du jour plus all the legacies? I want single instance of data. I want neutral encodings. As to the specific of bibliographic data (in any format) embedded in .conf files? I remain to be convinced. ... Or shall we produce something that the end user, with a specific and pointed problem, can use? I sure don't want to keep track of processing some arbitrary number of formats. We have a person who has asked for BibTeX support - is there any reason for not supporting BibTeX other than, Well I don't use it? Oh I use it. I never said I didn't. What I said was that to embedded BibTeX in the .conf for one person (the obverse Well I do use it) is wrong. A more general and non-knee jerk solution is required. Don't go parsing BibTeX citations when it isn't required. The issue is one of generating bibliographic formatS from a single consistent set of data. Don't make the .conf file overly complex. You will break it. Rememeber KISS. The complication should be at a level where it can be managed safely and without distrupting existing modules, that is NOT in the .conf file parser. Regards, Trevor Re: deemed! ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
This is an excellent idea, but I worry about BibTeX being the wrong format to encourage academic use. I love LaTeX, personally. I just spent a day putting together a reader for my class in LaTeX. But I'm probably in a minority here, and outside of math sciences, I believe almost no one uses LaTeX. It is a fairly old format, so there are lots of importers for other software like EndNote. I think keeping BibTeX would be great, but I'd like to encourage us to also adopt CSL (http://citationstyles.org/), which is used by a few different programs, including Zotero. I'd also recommend we figure out a way to do everything via scripts and auto-generate BibTeX and CSL entries with a nightly cron job. We can fill out additional .conf entries, as necessary, to make the automation easier. --Chris On 1/10/2011 8:03 AM, Peter von Kaehne wrote: Modules really should have bibtex or something similar in their conf file. This would improve the use of our library for academic purposes. We have talked about this a while ago. I think we reached some sort of agreement that Bibtex entries should be added to the conf file, though beyond the principle we did not move. Nor has anyone committed any code. What I have done is created a web page which contains my personal module collection in Bibtex format. It is a bit arbitrary as it a wild selection of modules including a couple of home grown ones. I will start weeding it and sorting it into Repos. My ultimate plan would be to add an entry into each conf file with a complete record. The page is here. I suggest that a) other relevant modules get added, b) corrections and improvements get added too Once it looks somehow decent I think we can figure out what to do next, though my suggestion is a single conf entry with all Bibtex bits in a single line. http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Bibtex_entries Peter ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
Without wishing to become rude, Trevor I do not remember (and I have
looked through the last 6 years of sword-devel archives...) a single
post of yours in a positive, constructive and encouraging tone. I also
do not remember a single patch or contribution either on sword-svn or
indeed in our module library (or in any frontend I follow or contribute
to). There were of course a significant number of negative, dismissive
or discouraging posts made by you.
I therefore consider you a user and not a particularly friendly one.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
With that, I propose to ignore your wrong, wrong, wrong and no,no,no
etc.
Wrt previous discussions I suggest you simply use your own search
capabilities, rather than asking others for links.
So, back to the subject to be a bit more clear:
I propose a single new entry to the conf file which contains a complete
bibliographic entry for the given module.
BibTex = @book {Webster1913,Author={Webster},Editor={},Title= {Revised
{U}nabridged {D}ictionary of the {E}nglish
{L}anguage},Publisher={CrossWire {B}ible {S}ociety},year={1913},}
I propose to use BibTex for this, mostly because it is a well known
format, widely supported by open source tools and because I like it.
I propose that we (everyone interested) work together on the wiki page
linked priorly to create for each existing module such an entry and once
these are at a satisfactory level, we (I) can add them in bulk to the
module conf files if the consensus (among developers) to do such is there
If a frontend wishes to make use of this and export it, the methods in
swordlib to read arbitrary conf entries are there.
If no frontend supports these, a user can still extract all his modules'
entries with a minimally sized shell script .
If a user wishes to transform this entry (these entries) into a
different format - the tools are there. Most bibliography tools can read
any number of formats and can transform them into whatever they need.
I have considered the main alternative - to clean up the conf files and
add entries/content to create in a second step bibliographic entries.
This is a valid alternative. The main obstacles I see is - it will
require a whole bunch of new entries and it will create endless
confusion in new module makers. We already have ongoing confusion
regarding the function of various entries (Description and About,
Copyright and DistributionLicense etc). A cat ~/.sword/mods.d/*conf
will confirm this to any doubter. And dual use (entries both for
descriptive purposes and bibliographic data) is not good for the same
reason.
A single well defined entry, solely for a single purpose (bibliographic
data) will be relatively straightforward to maintain and likely not add
confusion to those who create new modules.
Peter
On 12/01/11 00:36, Trevor Jenkins wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011, Greg Hellings greg.helli...@gmail.com wrote:
No no no. That way leaves to inconsistencies and corruption. Apply 3NF and
4NF normalisation to this data. If the bibliographic data is to be there
put it there only once and then have some API layer to extract and present
it in what ever format the user needs.
Did you read the rest of my email or did you stop to throw fire on one
of a list of alternatives I gave?
The rest of your email posits multiple copies of the same bibliographic
data repeated in .conf files. Wrong, wrong, wrong. If there has to be
bibliographic data in there then it should be in a neutral format
(consistent with the rest of the .conf file syntax) not BibTeX mashed in
there.
3NF, BCNF and 4NF are all fine and good when you're drawing out a
database schema on a piece of paper. In actual practice they often
lead to massively more computation and upkeep than simply
denormalizing the data.
Well of course one could have N1NF data in there and then there's is the
very great risk of inconsistencies within the multiple copies of the
bibliographic data. Think about the issues involved not the emotional
response to a specific but minority format.
... In this case, BibTeX is basically the same as
what you are prescribing - each of the pieces of data split out into
its own, separate field.
No the difference is that BibTeX would require the .conf parser to be
extended with a heavyweight parser dealing with the vagaries of BibTeX.
Sure sliplt the data in to fields but in existing .conf file format. Then
add API functions to extract format neutral data and present it in the
required formats.
... It is already a standardized, well built tool
to handle all of the intricacies and details of creating the type of
information the user has requested. It is open and has a large array
of tools which can process it into many different types of output
format.
What you call intricacies I call vagaries. It isn't a well-documented
format. There's too much to go wrong.
Very true. I've used must of those tools over the years but not mashed up
and mixed in with other
Re: [sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
On 12/01/11 01:00, Chris Little wrote: I think keeping BibTeX would be great, but I'd like to encourage us to also adopt CSL (http://citationstyles.org/), which is used by a few different programs, including Zotero. Fine by me - any format really will do, as long as it is reasonably wide spread and accessible. I'd also recommend we figure out a way to do everything via scripts and auto-generate BibTeX and CSL entries with a nightly cron job. We can fill out additional .conf entries, as necessary, to make the automation easier. That sounds great. As said though in my last post - I am worried about adding confusion with added entries - particularly if partially redundant in info. I did a run through my own modules to create a rudimentary bibtex bibliography and found the data created needed a huge amount of editing before it became useful. But maybe simply some serious discipline will do the job. Peter ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
[sword-devel] Bibtex for modules
Modules really should have bibtex or something similar in their conf file. This would improve the use of our library for academic purposes. We have talked about this a while ago. I think we reached some sort of agreement that Bibtex entries should be added to the conf file, though beyond the principle we did not move. Nor has anyone committed any code. What I have done is created a web page which contains my personal module collection in Bibtex format. It is a bit arbitrary as it a wild selection of modules including a couple of home grown ones. I will start weeding it and sorting it into Repos. My ultimate plan would be to add an entry into each conf file with a complete record. The page is here. I suggest that a) other relevant modules get added, b) corrections and improvements get added too Once it looks somehow decent I think we can figure out what to do next, though my suggestion is a single conf entry with all Bibtex bits in a single line. http://www.crosswire.org/wiki/Bibtex_entries Peter -- Neu: GMX De-Mail - Einfach wie E-Mail, sicher wie ein Brief! Jetzt De-Mail-Adresse reservieren: http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/demail ___ sword-devel mailing list: sword-devel@crosswire.org http://www.crosswire.org/mailman/listinfo/sword-devel Instructions to unsubscribe/change your settings at above page
