[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
On Sep 21, 3:02 pm, Tom Boutell wrote: > A more interesting question is: "if we're going to use MVC frameworks > anyway, do we still gain anything worth having by using loosely typed, > interpreted languages like Ruby and PHP? Assuming for a moment an > equally good framework implementation following the same design > philosophy in the case of each language?" > > Yes, I think we do. Java is still considerably more verbose as a way > of getting your application logic coded. But there are interesting > Java framework-based implementations of Rails-style sites that aren't > *too* verbose: > > http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=32723 > Yeah, I don't think Symfony/PHP offers any benefit comparied Grails/ Groovy. It is more a choice of whatever language the programmer is comfortable with. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
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[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
Loose-typing brings a lot of things to the party - allowing approaches to problems that are otherwise difficult to solve. Take linq as an example. Traditionally one of the bottlenecks in applications - esp distributed or loosely coupled applications is data-processing. Paradigms such as DI and AOP are far easier with interpreted languages than with compiled. Compiled tends to be tied to a platform but performs better, interpreted achieves platform independence at the expense of speed. The only exception I'm aware of is SQL which is a special case :) MVC facilitates RAD & prototyping and is a suitable approach for "dumb" UI's (ie web) - but it's not as suitable for desktop driven, service or daemon applications (you wouldn't use an MVC pattern for coding a database or for a control application for your car engine). MVC also brings something to the mix that I think is often overlooked - scaffolding. A more appropriate question you should be asking as a software engineer is - which pattern is suitable for the application I'm developing... :) On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 21:02:51 +0200, Tom Boutell wrote: > > I've thought about this too. But C++ is full of scary dangerous > backwards compatibility systems-programming-oriented features that > make safe programming harder and make little sense in a web > application. > > I think your argument makes more sense if you're talking Java (or C#) > vs Ruby and PHP. > > A more interesting question is: "if we're going to use MVC frameworks > anyway, do we still gain anything worth having by using loosely typed, > interpreted languages like Ruby and PHP? Assuming for a moment an > equally good framework implementation following the same design > philosophy in the case of each language?" > > Yes, I think we do. Java is still considerably more verbose as a way > of getting your application logic coded. But there are interesting > Java framework-based implementations of Rails-style sites that aren't > *too* verbose: > > http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=32723 > > On Sep 21, 9:28 am, pcummins wrote: >> With the introduction of PHP frameworks and widespread use of MVC >> pattern in web development, has anyone ever wondered why we aren't >> simply writing our web applications in C++, and using 'templates' >> files for view delivery? >> >> It seems like a pretty interesting cycle. >> >> Internet begins >> High level languages aren't easy enough for newbies to write websites >> Scripting languages (php,ruby,python) are created and take hold of web >> market >> Enterprise level applications require standardization of programming >> techniques >> Scripting languages get standardized with frameworks >> Frameworks are entirely oo, and MVC ensues >> Programmers wonder why they ever stopped writing in C/C++. >> >> I love what Symfony (and other frameworks) have done for PHP. I also >> love the flexibility and loosely typed nature of PHP, but sometimes I >> wonder how far away is a good PHP framework from C / Java? >> Imagine the performance gain of not having to deal with PHP. I guess >> this is kind of the vision of .net. >> >> What are your thoughts? > --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Goog --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
I've thought about this too. But C++ is full of scary dangerous backwards compatibility systems-programming-oriented features that make safe programming harder and make little sense in a web application. I think your argument makes more sense if you're talking Java (or C#) vs Ruby and PHP. A more interesting question is: "if we're going to use MVC frameworks anyway, do we still gain anything worth having by using loosely typed, interpreted languages like Ruby and PHP? Assuming for a moment an equally good framework implementation following the same design philosophy in the case of each language?" Yes, I think we do. Java is still considerably more verbose as a way of getting your application logic coded. But there are interesting Java framework-based implementations of Rails-style sites that aren't *too* verbose: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=32723 On Sep 21, 9:28 am, pcummins wrote: > With the introduction of PHP frameworks and widespread use of MVC > pattern in web development, has anyone ever wondered why we aren't > simply writing our web applications in C++, and using 'templates' > files for view delivery? > > It seems like a pretty interesting cycle. > > Internet begins > High level languages aren't easy enough for newbies to write websites > Scripting languages (php,ruby,python) are created and take hold of web > market > Enterprise level applications require standardization of programming > techniques > Scripting languages get standardized with frameworks > Frameworks are entirely oo, and MVC ensues > Programmers wonder why they ever stopped writing in C/C++. > > I love what Symfony (and other frameworks) have done for PHP. I also > love the flexibility and loosely typed nature of PHP, but sometimes I > wonder how far away is a good PHP framework from C / Java? > Imagine the performance gain of not having to deal with PHP. I guess > this is kind of the vision of .net. > > What are your thoughts? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
I've thought about this too. But C++ is full of scary dangerous backwards compatibility systems-programming-oriented features that make safe programming harder and make little sense in a web application. I think your argument makes more sense if you're talking Java (or C#) vs Ruby and PHP. A more interesting question is: "if we're going to use MVC frameworks anyway, do we still gain anything worth having by using loosely typed, interpreted languages like Ruby and PHP? Assuming for a moment an equally good framework implementation following the same design philosophy in the case of each language?" Yes, I think we do. Java is still considerably more verbose as a way of getting your application logic coded. But there are interesting Java framework-based implementations of Rails-style sites that aren't *too* verbose: http://www.theserverside.com/news/thread.tss?thread_id=32723 On Sep 21, 9:28 am, pcummins wrote: > With the introduction of PHP frameworks and widespread use of MVC > pattern in web development, has anyone ever wondered why we aren't > simply writing our web applications in C++, and using 'templates' > files for view delivery? > > It seems like a pretty interesting cycle. > > Internet begins > High level languages aren't easy enough for newbies to write websites > Scripting languages (php,ruby,python) are created and take hold of web > market > Enterprise level applications require standardization of programming > techniques > Scripting languages get standardized with frameworks > Frameworks are entirely oo, and MVC ensues > Programmers wonder why they ever stopped writing in C/C++. > > I love what Symfony (and other frameworks) have done for PHP. I also > love the flexibility and loosely typed nature of PHP, but sometimes I > wonder how far away is a good PHP framework from C / Java? > Imagine the performance gain of not having to deal with PHP. I guess > this is kind of the vision of .net. > > What are your thoughts? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
Aye - there was even an Apache distro for the range with embedded php. I think it's fallen out of support though. On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 18:03:42 +0200, Eno wrote: > > On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, david wrote: > >> There's also fit for purpose. While PHP on a mobile phone is possible - >> it's not the best idea :) > > Though some apps on the Nokia Nxxx tablets are written in Python :-) > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, david wrote: > There's also fit for purpose. While PHP on a mobile phone is possible - > it's not the best idea :) Though some apps on the Nokia Nxxx tablets are written in Python :-) -- --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
> True. > > Language does not matter anymore - use the tools you're most > comfortable and most productive with. > There's also fit for purpose. While PHP on a mobile phone is possible - it's not the best idea :) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
On 21 Sep 2009, at 15:49, Fabian Lange wrote: > > On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Lee Bolding wrote: >> The myth that PHP doesn't scale is old, and no longer plausible. > > I did not say say. > I said that you can have java architectures that scale better than php > architectures, > and you can have php architectures that are better than java > architectures. > in fact the language does not matter True. Language does not matter anymore - use the tools you're most comfortable and most productive with. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
Hi On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 4:44 PM, Lee Bolding wrote: > The myth that PHP doesn't scale is old, and no longer plausible. I did not say say. I said that you can have java architectures that scale better than php architectures, and you can have php architectures that are better than java architectures. in fact the language does not matter Fabian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
On 21 Sep 2009, at 14:50, Fabian Lange wrote: > But you can also have the same situation with Java and Spring which > scales much better than a coupled php architecture. That line is becoming more and more blurred with the advent of memcache, JSON and proper OO PHP(5) frameworks. Some projects I've worked on in the past have been based on PHP webservices serving XML, JSON or RSS (replacing say EJB's) and have been incredibly scalable and quick to rollout, maintain, extend and debug. JSON has effectively replaced EJBs as the object transport of choice in largely decoupled and scalable applications. Can haz JSON, can haz scalability. The myth that PHP doesn't scale is old, and no longer plausible. So, I'm gonna don my Jamie Hyneman beret and say "This one's definitely busted" ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
Frameworks have been around since developers started developing - since assembly language (the bios can be thought of as a framework). MS Word is a framework. Wordpress, joomla, SMF is a framework. Some are specific to a problem domain, some aren't. Frameworks were around even before the internet - they're nothing new. They're just a tool to make things more repeatable, reliable and to aid developing. Each language trades off complexity/usability/performance/maintainability while throwing in the added spice of how accessible it is to a wide audience. Some languages have a steeper learning curve than others, some introduce more complex deployment. Until recently with the wide-spread availability of virtual servers - it would have been expensive to develop applications with compiled languages as they would have required a dedicated server (no isp would have allowed build-level access on shared servers). MVC isn't a framework but an implementation of a paradigm - an approach that allows separation of responsibility. The paradigm has been around for a long time - and MVC is just a successful implementation of it. On Mon, 21 Sep 2009 15:28:19 +0200, pcummins wrote: > > With the introduction of PHP frameworks and widespread use of MVC > pattern in web development, has anyone ever wondered why we aren't > simply writing our web applications in C++, and using 'templates' > files for view delivery? > > It seems like a pretty interesting cycle. > > Internet begins > High level languages aren't easy enough for newbies to write websites > Scripting languages (php,ruby,python) are created and take hold of web > market > Enterprise level applications require standardization of programming > techniques > Scripting languages get standardized with frameworks > Frameworks are entirely oo, and MVC ensues > Programmers wonder why they ever stopped writing in C/C++. > > I love what Symfony (and other frameworks) have done for PHP. I also > love the flexibility and loosely typed nature of PHP, but sometimes I > wonder how far away is a good PHP framework from C / Java? > Imagine the performance gain of not having to deal with PHP. I guess > this is kind of the vision of .net. > > What are your thoughts? > > > > > > > > > > > -- Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
On Mon, 21 Sep 2009, pcummins wrote: > With the introduction of PHP frameworks and widespread use of MVC > pattern in web development, has anyone ever wondered why we aren't > simply writing our web applications in C++, and using 'templates' > files for view delivery? C++ is a large overly-complicated language not really suited to agile web development. Its no surpise that Java anc other OOP language have simpler OOP constructs. > Programmers wonder why they ever stopped writing in C/C++. Do we? (I dont). > wonder how far away is a good PHP framework from C / Java? PHP performance is good enough for this not to matter. Hardware is cheap. Clouds are plentiful. -- --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
[symfony-users] Re: Framework based PHP vs high level programming languages
Hi On Mon, Sep 21, 2009 at 3:28 PM, pcummins wrote: > how far away is a good PHP framework from C / Java? incomparable. I do have my thoughts, but I cannot follow yours. First there is a difference between scripting and non-scripting languages. Which in reality is often: "I cannot see my source code on the server" The reality is that there are very few different programming models: Lets say OO vs procedural vs functional There is support for almost each of them in almost every language. It doesnt matter which language you code in, but if you can produce good code on good design fitting into your architecture fulfilling your requirements. The role of a framework is to provide standard components and patterns, so that the amount of problems is reduced. because php sucks, it is good that there is symfony. because javascript sucks, it is good that there is jquery. java doesnt suck so much, but there are also frameworks. If you think that Java EJB is the superior model then you might find out one day that the Shared nothing architecture PHP applications have is much easier to scale. But you can also have the same situation with Java and Spring which scales much better than a coupled php architecture. There is no silver bullet and There aint no such thing as free lunch Fabian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "symfony users" group. To post to this group, send email to symfony-users@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to symfony-users+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/symfony-users?hl=en -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
