Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
The article was "Over the Edge" and I think it was in 1995 or 1996. Great timing, right before the Atlanta Olympics. Alan From: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:29:12 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mc12-f11.hotmail.com ([65.54.167.147]) by mc12-s17.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:43:46 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by mc12-f11.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:40:20 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h970TIe9013031for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h970TITi013023for t-and-f-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:29:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from web40206.mail.yahoo.com (web40206.mail.yahoo.com [66.218.78.67])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h970THe9012821for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:29:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [12.225.22.156] by web40206.mail.yahoo.com via HTTP; Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:29:12 PDT X-Message-Info: QY4hSA9XRFPHUeTMcGtm1ED6yAsroR6lONRO6xdaHSo= Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> In-Reply-To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 07 Oct 2003 00:40:22.0233 (UTC) FILETIME=[972EEC90:01C38C6B] Didn't SI run an article a few years back citing those surveys? I also seem to recall being told that the survey originated from USATF/TAC. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com _ Get MSN 8 Dial-up Internet Service FREE for one month. Limited time offer-- sign up now! http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Chicago, Boston, or both? Jim Gerweck wrote: > on 10/6/03 8:13 PM, Tom Derderian at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > > Must be the pitchers are using. > > Well, not the Sox relievers.
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
on 10/6/03 8:13 PM, Tom Derderian at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Must be the pitchers are using. Well, not the Sox relievers.
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Didn't SI run an article a few years back citing those surveys? I also seem to recall being told that the survey originated from USATF/TAC. Dan = http://AbleDesign.com - Web Design & Custom Programming http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F @o Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED] <|\/ <^- ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] ) _/ \ \/\ (503)370-9969 phone/fax / / __ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Shopping - with improved product search http://shopping.yahoo.com
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
The theory wasn't unanimously agreed to if you read the entire article but even if true that's an easy one. There will be a learning curve. http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/baseball/20030922-1428-bbo-sportsshowcase.html David Lesley wrote: > Netvolks: > > Today's San Diego Union -Tribune ran an article in the sports page to the > effect that in this first year of steroid testing of major league players , > nobody hit 50 or more home runs in MLB. This is the first time in 10 years > that this has occurred. > > Now, the wisdom on this list seems to be that testing is not a deterrent and > detection is easily avoided. Since utility infielders make more money than > almost any T&F athlete, they can certainly afford the same medical help. > > I'm sure there will be no lack of explanations for this. > > David Lesley
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Must be the pitchers are using. - Original Message - From: "David Lesley" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 7:57 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs? > Netvolks: > > Today's San Diego Union -Tribune ran an article in the sports page to the > effect that in this first year of steroid testing of major league players , > nobody hit 50 or more home runs in MLB. This is the first time in 10 years > that this has occurred. > > Now, the wisdom on this list seems to be that testing is not a deterrent and > detection is easily avoided. Since utility infielders make more money than > almost any T&F athlete, they can certainly afford the same medical help. > > I'm sure there will be no lack of explanations for this. > > David Lesley >
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Netvolks: Today's San Diego Union -Tribune ran an article in the sports page to the effect that in this first year of steroid testing of major league players , nobody hit 50 or more home runs in MLB. This is the first time in 10 years that this has occurred. Now, the wisdom on this list seems to be that testing is not a deterrent and detection is easily avoided. Since utility infielders make more money than almost any T&F athlete, they can certainly afford the same medical help. I'm sure there will be no lack of explanations for this. David Lesley
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
It would be nice to find a citation but I couldn't find one. edndana wrote: > What Martin is saying is exactly what I remember. The same study was also > done with a group of potential 1992 Olympians was actually on my final exam > in grad school in 1992. I am trying to remember if maybe it was in medecine > and science in sport and exercise or where we got it from. > > - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
What Martin is saying is exactly what I remember. The same study was also done with a group of potential 1992 Olympians was actually on my final exam in grad school in 1992. I am trying to remember if maybe it was in medecine and science in sport and exercise or where we got it from. - Ed Parrot - Original Message - From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, October 06, 2003 5:07 PM Subject: Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs? > Gerald Woodward wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > > win an Olympic gold medal... > > Well...this doesn't necessarily mean the study took place or that it was > scientific if it did and it seems to me that I have heard various versions of > this since well prior to 1995. > > "A Scenario, from a 1995 poll of 198 sprinters, swimmers, powerlifters and other > assorted athletes, most of them U.S. Olympians of aspiring Olympians: > > You Are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance, with two guarantees: > 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win. Would you take the substance? > > One hundred and ninety-five athletes said yes; three said no. > > Scenario II: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance that comes > with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win every > competition you enter for the next five years, and then you will die from the > side effects of the substance. Would you take it? > > More than half the athletes said yes." > > > > http://www.horizon-hs.net/~pe/gary%20paulson/wt%20lifting%20II/overtheedge.html > > Gerald Woodward wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > > win an Olympic gold medal! I would love to have one, but not at that cost! > > I enjoy life for the most part and have a lot of things that I still want to > > accomplish. The gold medal is not that important to me that I give up my > > life in five years, and I hate to lose even if I'm playing tiddlywinks!!! > > > > Gerald > > -- > Regards, > > > Martin > > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., > Millard Financial Consulting Inc. > P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: www.millards.com > Practice Areas: http://www.millards.com/profs/mjd.htm > > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: > This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for > the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution > or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a > criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email > confirmation to the sender. > >
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
There's my story. I've been trying to find a copy of that article for the longest time. "Nor is the testing itself as stringent as Olympic testers would have the public believer. The IOC tolerates startlingly high levels of testosterone in both male and female athletes. Olympic testing guidelines established 15 years ago by the late German biochemist Manfred Donike, who was the head of the IOC's doping subcommittee from 1980 until his death in 1995, measure an athlete's testosterone/epitestosterone (t/e) ratio of 1.3 to 1 or lower. A small fraction of men, far fewer than 10 in 1,000 have a t/e ratio of more that 5 to 1. To cover these people and to avoid lawsuits. Donlike pegged the maximum acceptable ratio in Olympic athletes at 6 to 1. Thus, a male athlete with a natural t/e ratio of 1 to 1 can artificially increase his ratio to 6 to 1 and still have legal reading. A man with a natural 1-to-1 ratio could take 200 milligrams of testosterone three times a week and remain below 6 to 1. Sports scientists say that a run-of-the-mill male athlete with a 1-to-1 t/e ratio who raised his ratio to 6 to 1 by injecting testosterone, in conjunction with hGH could improve his athlete performance by as much as 10% to 20%. That's a huge advantage in, say a 100-meter sprint in which a few hundredths of a second can separate first place from fourth, or in a throwing event, in which six feet can separate a gold medalist from an also-ran. Donike also established 6 to 1 as the legal ratio for women, even though it is almost unheard of for a women to have a ratio greater than 2.5 to 1." I've also been saying for the longest time that steroids are still the drug of choice for strength and endurance athletes. The above excerpt proves my point. An endurance athlete could boost his t/e level above his normal ratio but below the IOC standard and dramatically improve recovery time through improved protein synthesis. Alan From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs? Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2003 17:07:36 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mc7-f24.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.31]) by mc7-s2.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:30:32 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by mc7-f24.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:27:28 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h96L7Xe9005795for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h96L7XEB005792for t-and-f-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mrr2.millards.com (ftp.millards.com [207.61.19.2])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h96L7UeA005274(version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=EDH-RSA-DES-CBC3-SHA bits=168 verify=NOT)for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:07:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: from millards.com (mjdixon.millards.com [192.168.1.44])by mrr2.millards.com (8.12.8/8.12.8) with ESMTP id h96L5u7S032083for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 17:05:56 -0400 X-Message-Info: QY4hSA9XRFMOUcd59IFk71s0znftyzR3hNhmKJl+uzo= Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.8 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2003 21:27:29.0905 (UTC) FILETIME=[A589CE10:01C38C50] Gerald Woodward wrote: > Ed, > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > win an Olympic gold medal... Well...this doesn't necessarily mean the study took place or that it was scientific if it did and it seems to me that I have heard various versions of this since well prior to 1995. "A Scenario, from a 1995 poll of 198 sprinters, swimmers, powerlifters and other assorted athletes, most of them U.S. Olympians of aspiring Olympians: You Are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance, with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win. Would you take the substance? One hundred and ninety-five athletes said yes; three said no. Scenario II: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance that comes with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win every competition you enter for the next five years, and then you will die from the side effects of the substance. Would you take it? More than half the athletes said yes." http://www.horizon-hs.net/~pe/gary%20paulson/wt%20lifting%20
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
In those same studies a similar question was asked but without it causing death. Somewhere around 75-80% said yes. Alan From: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: "edndana" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: t-and-f: who would use drugs? Date: Mon, 6 Oct 2003 14:19:05 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: from mc8-f33.hotmail.com ([65.54.253.169]) by mc8-s9.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:31:19 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([128.223.142.13]) by mc8-f33.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(5.0.2195.5600); Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:27:51 -0700 Received: from darkwing.uoregon.edu ([EMAIL PROTECTED] [127.0.0.1])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with ESMTP id h96JGfe9008420for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from [EMAIL PROTECTED])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10/Submit) id h96JGfY8008408for t-and-f-outgoing; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:16:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp101.mail.sc5.yahoo.com (smtp101.mail.sc5.yahoo.com [216.136.174.139])by darkwing.uoregon.edu (8.12.10/8.12.10) with SMTP id h96JGee9008229for <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; Mon, 6 Oct 2003 12:16:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: from adsl-64-168-100-180.dsl.scrm01.pacbell.net (HELO EDWARDPARROT2) ([EMAIL PROTECTED]@64.168.100.180 with login) by smtp.mail.vip.sc5.yahoo.com with SMTP; 6 Oct 2003 17:58:56 - X-Message-Info: QY4hSA9XRFP5/G64gvHZanuE5joDhKgcAu2yKIq0vjw= Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> References: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1158 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2800.1165 Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Precedence: bulk Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-OriginalArrivalTime: 06 Oct 2003 19:27:53.0028 (UTC) FILETIME=[EFC94840:01C38C3F] > So those who say that "most" are cheating > must be telling the rest of us that the "cheaters" are not very intelligent > in that they "knowingly" use drugs that they know will cause them great > bodily harm and premature death just to be "World Class" and/or "Win!" I > prefer to think that the majority of them are much more intelligent than that! The surveys done on Olympians several times in the past two decades have found that somewhere around 50% of them would take a drug that would kill them in five years if it guaranteed them a gold medal and there was no chance of being caught. I do not know the specifics of the studies - I first learned about it in graduate school a decade ago. It would not surprise me if the results could be questioned. But, I remember being convinced enough to conclude that there was a good chance that a majority of elite athletes would take a drug that probably would not kill them and they could avoid getting caught, especially if they believed everyone else was doing it. While I still love the sport and do not make assumptions about many individual athletes, I have not seen anything to change my conclusion on this. - Ed Parrot _ Instant message with integrated webcam using MSN Messenger 6.0. Try it now FREE! http://msnmessenger-download.com
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
I think 85 percent of human parents surveyed said that some times, they would like to eat their young. "Martin J. Dixon" wrote: > Gerald Woodward wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > > win an Olympic gold medal... > > Well...this doesn't necessarily mean the study took place or that it was > scientific if it did and it seems to me that I have heard various versions of > this since well prior to 1995. > > "A Scenario, from a 1995 poll of 198 sprinters, swimmers, powerlifters and other > assorted athletes, most of them U.S. Olympians of aspiring Olympians: > > You Are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance, with two guarantees: > 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win. Would you take the substance? > > One hundred and ninety-five athletes said yes; three said no. > > Scenario II: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance that comes > with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win every > competition you enter for the next five years, and then you will die from the > side effects of the substance. Would you take it? > > More than half the athletes said yes." > > http://www.horizon-hs.net/~pe/gary%20paulson/wt%20lifting%20II/overtheedge.html > > Gerald Woodward wrote: > > > Ed, > > > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > > win an Olympic gold medal! I would love to have one, but not at that cost! > > I enjoy life for the most part and have a lot of things that I still want to > > accomplish. The gold medal is not that important to me that I give up my > > life in five years, and I hate to lose even if I'm playing tiddlywinks!!! > > > > Gerald > > -- > Regards, > > Martin > > Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., > Millard Financial Consulting Inc. > P.O. Box 367 > 96 Nelson Street > Brantford, Ontario > N3T 5N3 > Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 > Telephone: (519) 759-3511 > Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 > E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Web site: www.millards.com > Practice Areas: http://www.millards.com/profs/mjd.htm > > IMPORTANT NOTICE: > This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for > the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution > or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a > criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email > confirmation to the sender.
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Gerald Woodward wrote: > Ed, > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > win an Olympic gold medal... Well...this doesn't necessarily mean the study took place or that it was scientific if it did and it seems to me that I have heard various versions of this since well prior to 1995. "A Scenario, from a 1995 poll of 198 sprinters, swimmers, powerlifters and other assorted athletes, most of them U.S. Olympians of aspiring Olympians: You Are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance, with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win. Would you take the substance? One hundred and ninety-five athletes said yes; three said no. Scenario II: You are offered a banned performance-enhancing substance that comes with two guarantees: 1) You will not be caught. 2) You will win every competition you enter for the next five years, and then you will die from the side effects of the substance. Would you take it? More than half the athletes said yes." http://www.horizon-hs.net/~pe/gary%20paulson/wt%20lifting%20II/overtheedge.html Gerald Woodward wrote: > Ed, > > Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of > athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to > win an Olympic gold medal! I would love to have one, but not at that cost! > I enjoy life for the most part and have a lot of things that I still want to > accomplish. The gold medal is not that important to me that I give up my > life in five years, and I hate to lose even if I'm playing tiddlywinks!!! > > Gerald -- Regards, Martin Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Millard Financial Consulting Inc. P.O. Box 367 96 Nelson Street Brantford, Ontario N3T 5N3 Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231 Telephone: (519) 759-3511 Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548 E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web site: www.millards.com Practice Areas: http://www.millards.com/profs/mjd.htm IMPORTANT NOTICE: This email may be confidential, may be legally privileged, and is for the intended recipient only. Access, disclosure, copying, distribution or reliance on any of it by anyone else is prohibited and may be a criminal offence. Please delete if obtained in error and email confirmation to the sender.
Re: t-and-f: who would use drugs?
Ed, Thanks for the info. I would not think that that high a percentage of athletes would say yes, knowing that they would die in five years, just to win an Olympic gold medal! I would love to have one, but not at that cost! I enjoy life for the most part and have a lot of things that I still want to accomplish. The gold medal is not that important to me that I give up my life in five years, and I hate to lose even if I'm playing tiddlywinks!!! Gerald
t-and-f: who would use drugs?
> So those who say that "most" are cheating > must be telling the rest of us that the "cheaters" are not very intelligent > in that they "knowingly" use drugs that they know will cause them great > bodily harm and premature death just to be "World Class" and/or "Win!" I > prefer to think that the majority of them are much more intelligent than that! The surveys done on Olympians several times in the past two decades have found that somewhere around 50% of them would take a drug that would kill them in five years if it guaranteed them a gold medal and there was no chance of being caught. I do not know the specifics of the studies - I first learned about it in graduate school a decade ago. It would not surprise me if the results could be questioned. But, I remember being convinced enough to conclude that there was a good chance that a majority of elite athletes would take a drug that probably would not kill them and they could avoid getting caught, especially if they believed everyone else was doing it. While I still love the sport and do not make assumptions about many individual athletes, I have not seen anything to change my conclusion on this. - Ed Parrot
